Mini 566: Justice League Mafia Game Over

[Thesp]

So you think he, as scum, sees someone suggest mass claim, discusses why it's unhelpful, suggests we do it anyway because he doesn't think it hurts town, and does so fairly blatantly? My experience with scum is not consistent with your experience, apparently. I think this is opportunistic rather than genuine.

FOS: ZONEACE.

you don't find his constant harping DESPITE being told ample times (with detailed explanationsas to why) that it was a bad idea as even SLIGHTLY scummy.

No - it looked like he disagreed with those explanations (hardly any of which were detailed, IIRC). Am I mistaken?

[Thesp]

So you think he, as scum, sees someone suggest mass claim, discusses why it's unhelpful, suggests we do it anyway because he doesn't think it hurts town, and does so fairly blatantly? My experience with scum is not consistent with your experience, apparently. I think this is opportunistic rather than genuine.

FOS: ZONEACE.

you don't find his constant harping DESPITE being told ample times (with detailed explanationsas to why) that it was a bad idea as even SLIGHTLY scummy.

Also, what do you think of WhoMe??

[ZONEACE]

No - it looked like he disagreed with those explanations (hardly any of which were detailed, IIRC). Am I mistaken?

I feel mine were detailed. And it wasn't that he disagreed, he disREGARDED the explanations, he never refuted them and continued making hte same argument for the claims.


as for whome? i haven't taken a close look at him, so i don't really have an opinion.

[Thesp]

No - it looked like he disagreed with those explanations (hardly any of which were detailed, IIRC). Am I mistaken?

I feel mine were detailed. And it wasn't that he disagreed, he disREGARDED the explanations, he never refuted them and continued making hte same argument for the claims.

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

There seem to be a lot of presumptions in there. This isn't consistent with how I see scum play at all.

as for whome? i haven't taken a close look at him, so i don't really have an opinion.

Can you use this moment to take a close look at him and get back with me?

[cicero]

No response to my opinion that you're being too OMGUSy at Haschel?

The word OMGUS is as much a weapon for scum as it is for town. Particularly in a mini. It can be used to dismiss reasonable criticisms. Allowing that to happen is an error for town.

You'll note that you voted for me over mass claim and you heard nary a peep of complaint from me, Mirth. Here's your post, Mirth:

I'm still sort of V/LA, but I managed to snag a few minutes to check my games.

unvote: whoever I'm voting right now
vote: whoever suggested mass-claiming on day 1...cicero?

I do not believe in claiming unless absolutely necessary. I.E. not out of the blue on page 3. Don't need to go int the glaringly obviou reasons for why. Maybe you could provide me with a reason for asking? Looks like role fishing to me. Role fishing with a stick of dynamite.

Now I'm going back to being V/LA.

This vote registered an objection to the idea and was obviously when you were busy. You barely knew who you were voting for. It was more of an objection to the idea. You certainly hadn't digested what was going on completely, but frankly in a game like this I appreciated your vote as something that could continue discussion.

The trouble I have with Haschel's vote is also in it's nuance. If I chased around everyone who voted for me in an OMGUS way, I'd be a very tired and annoying Cicero.

It was the way Haschel did it that I found disingenuous. I would have done exactly the same vote for him if I wasn't the person being voted for.

He's done very little in the thread. Less than half a dozen posts. One of them drunk. And that post was a very scummy one.

The truth is that I've obviously heard of OMGUS and I'm a smart enough guy to take into consideration that someone (I expected it would be Haschell, but you're being his proxy because he doesnt really post much) would raise the whole OMGUS thing. It's a knee jerk reaction that happens whenever you vote for the person who has voted you.

But as a player you have a responsibility to go beyond OMGUS. You need to decide whether the criticism has merit or it doesnt.

In this case, in my view, Haschell is either scum or lazy townie. Either way he requires scrutiny.

Which is not to say we should forget about Capricious.

Nor should we forget about you, because, again, re-reading 6 pages is not too much too ask so that someone has a grasp of the nuances of the posts. You WERE V/LA but then later you weren't. So a re-read of my posts prior to deciding what I meant by them certainly wouldnt have been too much to ask at this game length.

[ZONEACE]

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

i notice how you completely ignored everything i said there.

[Thesp]

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

i notice how you completely ignored everything i said there.

No, I didn't. It seems to me that for you to believe that what he is doing is indicative of him being scum, it entails the presumptions listed there. Please, please, please correct me in anything there which may be incorrect. So far, you have not. (It's still early, though. )

cicero, what do you think of WhoMe?

[ZONEACE]

Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Yes, i think scum capricious stands to gain from a mass claim even if it is at his down fall. Because 1 scum for 2 or 3 power roles is not a good trade for the town, but it is a VERY GOOD trade for the scum. Its a risky gambit, but scum capricious stands to gain if it works.

And i've noticed, what have appeared, at least to me, to be very sly attempts to get people to out themselves as proof that it's a bad idea. I've stated, a couple times, that its a bad idea for the claim, and made explanations as to why, but the only way to PROVE IT, is from someone to name claim and see if their power can easily be figured out (which would be a bad idea and i definitely do not support anyone doing that). Despite this, he CONTINUES to push the idea saying no good reasons ahve been given.

[cicero]

Did you ever read the Fountainhead, Thesp? To paraphrase my favorite line: I don't think of WhoMe. I'll start thinking about him and get back to you.

[Thesp]

Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Yes, i think scum capricious stands to gain from a mass claim even if it is at his down fall. Because 1 scum for 2 or 3 power roles is not a good trade for the town, but it is a VERY GOOD trade for the scum. Its a risky gambit, but scum capricious stands to gain if it works.

And i've noticed, what have appeared, at least to me, to be very sly attempts to get people to out themselves as proof that it's a bad idea. I've stated, a couple times, that its a bad idea for the claim, and made explanations as to why, but the only way to PROVE IT, is from someone to name claim and see if their power can easily be figured out (which would be a bad idea and i definitely do not support anyone doing that). Despite this, he CONTINUES to push the idea saying no good reasons ahve been given.

I disagree with you and think you're wrong.

[ZONEACE]

well that gets an

FOS

because i think its quite obvious. Anyone pushing or defending mass claiming at this point is suspect.

[Thesp]

well that gets an

FOS

because i think its quite obvious. Anyone pushing or defending mass claiming at this point is suspect.

???

I'm not defending mass claiming, I'm defending

Capricious

. I've already made it clear that I don't think a mass claim is a good idea.

[ZONEACE]

You say that, and yet you continue to defend the person most vehemetely advocating mass claiming despite it being a logicless advocation. It jsut strikes me as suspect. you're saying one thing and doing another.

[Thesp]

You say that, and yet you continue to defend the person most vehemetely advocating mass claiming despite it being a logicless advocation. It jsut strikes me as suspect. you're saying one thing and doing another.

I think he's wrong, but I think he's town. I guess I don't see how that's unusual (or "saying one thing and doing another"). Can you help clarify that for me?

[ZONEACE]

you ignored and actually disputed that scum capricious had something to gain from his actions.

[Thesp]

you ignored and actually disputed that scum capricious had something to gain from his actions.

No, I

agreed

that if he's scum, then presumably he's pushing this agenda because he gets something out of it. (Otherwise, why bother on this subject?) I do feel, however, he would be unlikely to push such an agenda as aggressively as he is if scum because of the attention it brings on him, particularly when coupled with the low probability of success such an attempt would have (espeically in the face of existing criticism). Perhaps your experience of how scum act is different than mine, but it's not consistent with what I've seen, historically.

[WhoMe?]

Re-reading, I like WhoMe? as scum here much more. He seems to say, "Well, the last time it ended badly...but here's how we should do it!" I liked what we had to say about Capricious (even though I disagreed entirely with his conclusion for different reasons), but in the context of his earlier posts, he appears hypocritical in accusing Capricious of being wishy-washy on massclaiming.

Unvote: actr, Vote: WhoMe?

.

the reason I seem wishy washy is that I am ambivalent as to whether a mass claim would be pro-town or anti-town. It all depends on information I don't have. Do the scum have safe claims? Would we be successful in getting them to claim first? Do the roles we have fit any sort of pattern etc etc. The point I had against Capricious, was him laying out all the reasons it was a bad thing for town, and then promoting it.

[Thesp]

Happy with my vote.

[WhoMe?]

Happy with my vote.

I'm happy for you my position is as clear as I can make it. If you find it scummy, then so be it.

[Capricious]

Capricious, lets say there was a justice league cop, who did investigations, let's call him, saaaaay, a detective. Maybe even the world's greatest detective. What would that detective/cop's name be?

The last time i was in a justice league game i was batman and I was an Inventor, NOT THAT UNEXPECTED.

Lookee here, two people who are arguing against mass claiming had two different opinions about Batman's role. This is not convincing me at all. Who is to say Batman couldn't be a Vig, a mason, or just plain vanilla? The mod can twist the flavor however he wishes. I did not believe any power roles would be discovered through mass claiming, but that was my opinion. Maybe you guys have experience/flavor information that cause you to believe names could b associated with powers, whatever, I have none. So, I will stop pushing for a mass claim because we don't have unanimity.

the reason I seem wishy washy is that I am ambivalent as to whether a mass claim would be pro-town or anti-town. It all depends on information I don't have. Do the scum have safe claims? Would we be successful in getting them to claim first? Do the roles we have fit any sort of pattern etc etc. The point I had against Capricious, was him laying out all the reasons it was a bad thing for town, and then promoting it.

All I layed out was that we had a slim chance of something going good for us, while the scum appeared to me, at least to have an even slimmer chance to get something good in return. That was why I supported mass claim.

[ZONEACE]

you're still wrong capricious. mass claiming is a bad idea and if you try and push it again i will do everything in my power to get you lynched as quickly as possible.

[Mirth]

Thesp: Why are you defending Capricious?

Cicero: Note how I'm not harassing you about your mass claim comments. I did reread. Otherwise I would have continued. I do think your reaction to Haschel was too strong though. You're right about the way he posts though. Which is why I said I have no opinion of him and won't for a long while. I think he's impossible to get a read on.

Zoneace: Are you sure he's scum? On page 7? Why so hasty?

Cicero: I can't place that quote, but I'm tempted to declare my love for you for bringing up the Fountainhead.

Zoneace: so anyone who disagrees with your theory is a suspect?

Whome: how can we be successful in getting scum to claim first if we dont know who the scum are? Unless you're not telling us something?

Thesp: why are you happy with your vote?

Capricious: why are you stubbornly refusing to gt the point that mass claim helps scum more than town?

[WhoMe?]

Whome: how can we be successful in getting scum to claim first if we dont know who the scum are? Unless you're not telling us something?

I just mean the popcorn method. If the town is lucky with their picks, scum feature further up the list, so there is more chance of a counter claim as they have less info to make up their claims from.

[Mirth]

Whome: how can we be successful in getting scum to claim first if we dont know who the scum are? Unless you're not telling us something?

I just mean the popcorn method. If the town is lucky with their picks, scum feature further up the list, so there is more chance of a counter claim as they have less info to make up their claims from.

Except that this depends entirely on luck as you mentioned. And scum might have safe claims anyway. (There are a gagillion Justic League characters. We don't know what the mod is up to.) A few too many what ifs in my opinion. And even if the scum claim first, they might still claim some obscure if viable character that no one else has because we don't know how mainstream the mod is going with the roles. So I fail to see any merits in your point. Also, we don't know how many and what type of scum we have. Just one mafia group? mafia and SK? two smaller mafia factions? We don't know what to look for. And are the badguys really Justice Leaue universe badguys or just heroes the mod decided were bad guys for the sake of this game.

[actr]

again guys i am here this is my first forum only mafia game and i am trying to keep up if there are any questions for me just ask