Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[mastina]

It was some random thing I said on like the 2nd page of the game.

You say random thing, I say condemning thing.

Extrapolating something from nothing is just what I

do

. You know this so it shouldn't be a surprise I did so to you.

I did give you legit a lot of leeway once you claimed IC because I didn't think you would be suicidal enough to claim a role you couldn't prove since that is a very, very, VERY UnReasonable-Rational thing to do. I even noted many, many times what would happen for both gamesets, you as town and you as scum. With your nightkill, the you-as-town was even the one more likely, and even if it wasn't I was going to work under the assumption it was in order to be safe.

Now does this mean that when I extrapolate something from nothing it's going to be accurate? Fuck no I get it wrong all the time and I did so multiple times this game, it's proven in my reads/stances on other players this game just as much as the right ones are. But for better or worse, extrapolating something from nothing is one of the main ways I scumhunt.

I just ~see~ things.
My explanation for those things, often bullshit, but I see them and do my best to work with what I saw.

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel compelled to point out that the first part of #1798 is not at all snarky. I spent my undergrad years as a writing tutor and many of the years since teaching Composition and Rhetoric. There's nothing intended there other than an apology from me for not being clear.

~D

[mastina]

I think Drixx's objections are a little overblown. The most egregious thing was the fact that the deflector and the masonizer with in an all town pt with a third town around to work with, and there was a second conftown floating around. 3 conftown is at least one too many in a game this size.

I mean.
I don't disagree.

But what can you do.
We were dealt the most broken OP hand of all time, so we played the most broken OP hand of all time.

[Reasonably Rational]

It was some random thing I said on like the 2nd page of the game.

You say random thing, I say condemning thing.

Extrapolating something from nothing is just what I

do

. You know this so it shouldn't be a surprise I did so to you.

I did give you legit a lot of leeway once you claimed IC because I didn't think you would be suicidal enough to claim a role you couldn't prove since that is a very, very, VERY UnReasonable-Rational thing to do. I even noted many, many times what would happen for both gamesets, you as town and you as scum. With your nightkill, the you-as-town was even the one more likely, and even if it wasn't I was going to work under the assumption it was in order to be safe.

Now does this mean that when I extrapolate something from nothing it's going to be accurate? Fuck no I get it wrong all the time and I did so multiple times this game, it's proven in my reads/stances on other players this game just as much as the right ones are. But for better or worse, extrapolating something from nothing is one of the main ways I scumhunt.

I just ~see~ things.
My explanation for those things, often bullshit, but I see them and do my best to work with what I saw.

Post #1799. Please and thank you.

~D

[Ginngie]

Please never play mafia with mastina if it means all you wanna do is write nasty posts because no one wants to see that.

Firebringer knows that he doesn't get along with mastina so he doesn't play with her.

Be like Fire.

[Cerberus v666]

As Drixx said in his entry to this game, his like for yume outweighed his distaste for mastina. Can't let people you dislike keep you from things you enjoy.

@mastina: that's weird. My 185 wasn't an excuse for anything. I was reading through the game on my phone at work and WANTED to contribute, but didn't have the time to actually go back and reread the chansey stuff to figure out who it was. It was like, the epitome of NAI from me, in that it occurred entirely because in my real life I just didn't have time to do something and wanted someone to help me by giving me the necessary context.

[Cerberus v666]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

[mastina]

Well, all this endgame needs is for my honorary brother and TWC to show up and announce their opinions.

You did wonderfully. <3

I think that the town nailed mechanics and the scum made several mechanical misplays (shooting your own member, when there was a known deflector in the game, was something with high risk and low reward; leaving The Wood Cutters alive as a potential mislynch allowed us to protect conftown the entire game, when we were nigh-invincible from the mislynch and thus the scum left a souped-up doctor alive for a possibility which was never realistically materializing; shooting Sappho before they knew about the real roles was something understandable but was the worst possible action for them).

I think that in terms of play, the scum also made many blunders and many town players had accurately locked onto either right reads, right reasoning, or even both. However,

that being said

. The town misvigged and weren't really close to getting a scum lynch D1. The town quicklynched a mislynch D2. The town was on its way to mislynching D3 and the only thing which stopped that was town accidentally getting themselves modkilled. The town was close to mislynching multiple times even past D3.

So it's not like town were performing stellarly. They had good moments, they had bad moments. Scum also had some clever ideas and were playing respectably well in that it took a while for them to go down and their gambits did throw the town off. It's just that the town's gambits tended to actually work whereas the scum's gambits...didn't pan out for one reason or another.

I think that going into more specifics aside from this general outlook would probably cause more harm than good, since postgame is a place meant primarily for positive reinforcement. So I won't single out any sub-optimal moments (unless they're my own and maybe also Ginngie's), but I will give some further encouragement to good ones like Yume's game-wide performance. Yume got better and better as the game progressed and my expectations were blown out of the water. <3

Aside from the ~drama~ (of which there is some nasty, NASTY amounts I am quite privy to), I had a blast the entire time. I was enjoying every moment of it and was kinda glad we got to live through the whole thing in spite of our massively-broken role, because it gave me the chance to work with the entirety of the town pretty much in gamesolving. Including witnessing Yume's growth. <3

[mastina]

Scum are always salty when mastina does her gambits

And yet they never learn to just nightkill me and reveal the gambit until it's too late.

[Ginngie]

I hate fighting, (yes even when I do it, I'm deeply apologetic when I do explode) so like grr when I see it.


@cerboo, the only thing that I found scummy about the post restriction thing was the point I brought up about you saying you just fake emotions. It's probs is NAI but it happened to be right


P-edit: If Sappho was killed, Var and Yume would be viable lynches, same with us.
If Var was killed, again no masons, no way to confirm Jae(so some people besides TWC could possibly scum read the slot)

If we died, then Cerb and friends wouldn't have died and the game could have actually been won by lynching someone like gerry who would have been easy lynch given his content.

The thing about this game is TWC and Sappho were able to get the chance to coordinate and we can soul read each other, it was largely random luck of the draw cuz imagine a world where you guys were the masonizer instead, the drixx and mastina war wouldn't allow things to go down as proper or say a lazy player.

It was really a golden egg and we saw opportunity to exploit it.

[Cerberus v666]

Eh, idk about that, I think I get along pretty well with mastina, in spite of my distaste for some of her methods, so that could have worked out better than expected.

The part where you pointed out my frequently expressed tendency to fake emotions totally threw me off for a second. Which you should be proud of. Usually I have an instant response to stuff(at least a vague outline, making the words come out exactly the way I want takes time), but at first I had no idea what to say.

[Ginngie]

The part where you pointed out my frequently expressed tendency to fake emotions totally threw me off for a second. Which you should be proud of. Usually I have an instant response to stuff(at least a vague outline, making the words come out exactly the way I want takes time), but at first I had no idea what to say.

aww that made me smile :3

[Radical Rat]

Yo mastina

Hook me up with all the places I went horribly wrong.
Your wiki articles are what I read in preparation for my newbies, I'd love to hear your input, even negative input, on my first actual game with you

[mastina]

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT

Mastin lied about being fucking conftown to try to force through our lynch on D1. Wtf is that?

Because I wasn't lying! I was just HALF-lying. In that at the time I knew TWC wasn't masons (obv) but I knew SAPPHO were masons. Because I knew Sappho were masons, I knew that it was unlikely for there to be masons + Innocent Child. I mislead, but I didn't really lie.

how did you know they were masons?

Aside from me being their girlfriend and me having a bit of an unfair advantage there. (There's a reason that I'm tending to try and not play in the same game as either nancy or JaeReed unless we share a slot. ) Aside from having read them as town and known both of their play was way outside of their scum range.

They claimed to us on D1. They claimed their flavor was mastina. I instantly knew that to be true because no duh my girlfriends in a Cute UPick are going to pick me as being cute. (Plus we were in a SCUMMERS neighborhood so they had to be a scummer.) They claimed their role was a 1x masonizer. Aristophanes was in camn's revenge, where that was my fakeclaim and it directly led to the scum fucking up when my role was mistakenly posted as REALLY BEING a 1x masonizer. I knew it was a role he was likely to turn from a fakeclaim into a realclaim. It was just ~right~ on every level. And aside from that, JaeReed hates lying about their role and was adamant to claim it.

So it was a combination of player dynamics and mod dynamics and them just telling us in that it was painfully obvious, clear as day, that they were telling the truth and really were, legit, genuinely, a 1x masonizer. So with me knowing that Sappho was a 1x masonizer. I knew that masons + IC + this being a mini = very unlikely combination because it'd be too much conftown. (Well, so I thought.) So I fakeclaimed mason because it wasn't really a fakeclaim so much as it was a half-true claim. TWC not-masons, but Sappho legit-masons.

The claim was zero-risk, decent-reward. We lost nothing from it, and we couldn't have lost anything from it. We could gain a lot from it, including covering the real-masons and making sure they wouldn't be harmed.

To be honest I'm not sure what I'd have thought if you claimed your role. Even-night friendly neighbor is, on the one hand, still conftown in a game with a lot of conftown. But on the other hand it is far more massively nerfed than an IC in that an IC is publicly conftown whereas an even-night friendly neighbor is privately conftown, only if their action succeeds (when it can fail), and has a time delay. If I told you I'd read you one way for sure, it'd be a lie because I legit don't know how I'd have treated you.

But I for sure though the IC claim was bullshit when we knew there was a 1x masonizer in the game.

[mastina]

Pedit: because she believe their masonizer claim, even though as an ascetic, it was impossible for them to actually verify it.

I had every reason to.
It fit the flavor.
It fit the people claiming.
It fit everything perfectly.

It just made ~so much sense~ and I knew JaeReed wouldn't lie about their role as town and even as scum would be uncomfortable with a lie like that and I was very confident they were town so it just was a claim we knew was town.

You wouldn't believe the number of times I did ask myself, "Could Sappho actually be scum who fakeclaimed masonizer with intent to "masonize" a scumbuddy?", but every time. I dismissed it as the paranoia it was. Because I knew it was just that, paranoia, and I REFUSED to so much as

express

the paranoia. Not in the PT, not to Ginngie, not to anyone. I refused to acknowledge it because I just knew they weren't scum.

[mastina]

oh ok so she didnt know she just assumed they weren't lying

It aint an assumption when you have extensive meta knowledge of your girlfriends and know them on a deeply intimate level.

[mastina]

Also, mastina: you can't expect me to believe that was actually your reasoning, given that later on when varsoon claimed to create another "conftown", and you had every reason to believe I had actually been an IC, and you had seen zero scum flips, you gave the sappho/varsoon/yume group a pass.

Because they were mutually conftown.

There were two possibilities at that point.

One. Yume/Varsoon/Sappho was the scumteam. Yume was conftown to Varsoon. Varsoon and Sappho were mutually conftown.
Or Two. Yume/Varsoon/Sappho were all town.

And Sappho is the player we had been in the PT the entire game with.
Seeing their thought process

every step of the way

, on a very, very intimate level.
We also got to see the ugly drama there firsthand.
We also have extensive game experience with both heads. We know how they operate, we've seen them in games, we've seen their play as both alignments.
We also know what they are likely to pick.
And we also knew what Aristophanes was likely to make.
We had every reason to believe Sappho was conftown.

With Sappho as conftown, Varsoon becomes conftown.
With Varsoon as conftown, Yume becomes conftown.

There was never anything to question because there was never any reason to question Sappho's alignment. Past the very beginning of the game, that is. Was it perhaps unfair that you got an effective masonry of five players who have extensive game experience with one another? Sure. But it was what it was. We were never doubting Sappho this game because we were never going to consider what we had seen as their scumgame. Because our experience was our experience.

[mastina]

Did we ever believe you were actually IC?

I don't think we did?

I mean we both did, and didn't.
In that I treated them as if it were real, because that was the safest plan, but pre-Reasonably Rational-nightkill, I also made plans for if it wasn't real. (Our PT will show that quite a lot!)

I assumed it was real after their nightkill, because that was the safer assumption to make: the more conservative option, the option in which there were still three scum alive. (I knew Reasonably Rational wouldn't lie as town so the options were scum shenanigans or town realclaiming and eating a nightkill for it.) But even then I believe I made many a posts to the effect of "things become so much simpler if Reasonably Rational and/or randomidget were scum", yet in those posts, emphasizing once again that we couldn't afford to make the assumption scum were already dead. We had to assume three scum alive until we had proof otherwise.

[Varsoon]

I agree, not enough people are talking about me in this postgame.

[mastina]

Mastin: you still haven't answered Drixxs question, which you should probbaly do if you have any desire to have any sort of cordial conversation with him in the future(just a warning).

I mean that's his decision because if he thinks I'm going to have bias and call you scum no matter what, that's on him and we can't actually talk on a level playing field?

I had a scumread.
That scumread was correct.
He holds issue with the scumread.
But it was right.

He can cry right-for-the-wrong-reasons all he likes. I give credence to that by saying that I tend to bullshit with my reasoning, this is a known fact about me and I do it towards every player. But if he assumes it is something specific to him...I can't really change his stance there, now, can I? This is how I treat all players. I don't discriminate. If he assumes that I was making up a scumread because it was him, I can't really change his stance there, now, can I?

I've explained my methods before, I've explained how I operate, how it's a weird combination of both a methodical process and yet also whimsy, method to the madness, madness to the method. How I see things and try to build them up even if I don't fully understand them. How I will latch onto things, right or wrong. Sometimes I get things right, other times I get them wrong. As per what you'd expect in any game, I got some right and some wrong.

I've acknowledged multiple times things I got wrong. Chiefly Alisae, though I also contributed to the RadiantCowbells/Virtuoso debacle. And in spite of me making an epic case against Radical Rat multiple times in the PT, ultimately I'd have lynched Shiro before him so in that regard I read Shiro wrong and I wasn't too pleased with gerryoat either (and figured it wasn't my job to sort that anyway). I got a BUNDLELOAD of role stuff wrong. Assuming scum had a busdriver, for instance. Assuming I could game Varsoon's power when as per word of Aristophanes I couldn't. The like there.

But I'm not going to apologize for things I got right. Pushing you as scum. Being adamant Sappho was town. Correctly calling your role and even how N1 played out. And so on and so forth. I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to be right. Can you say you honestly disagree? That I don't have the right to be right, or that I don't have the right to be wrong? Because I simply fundamentally don't understand how anyone could hold that viewpoint.

I get some things right, I get some things wrong. Calling me a liar is saying I can't have that.

[mastina]

Oh, and I also want your thoughts on whether or not the nexus should have caught your deflect. Because if you look closely, you'll see the deflect went through fine, it was my kill protection that redirected the shot.

To be honest, redirection-roles are something that as a player I don't tend to mess around with thinking about. It's only as a mod I'll think about them, and even then, I will typically only lay the interactions out when I absolutely have to, when it becomes pertinent to make a call.

They hurt my head just as much as Aristophanes's.

If I were modding the game I'd be able to answer but as a player I mostly am like. "Well if a mod chooses to have multiple redirection roles in a game, what the mod says, goes, and I'm fine with that."

[mastina]

Nope. You don't get to take credit for things you didn't ever say in the game. Maybe if you said it to Sappho you can claim it.

Um.
That's exactly what I'm saying.

The proof is in the PT and you'll see it when it's released.

I explicitly talked about these things in there.

[Reasonably Rational]

@mastina - Come on now. You said you genuinely wanted to repair the damage from SU2. We were always friends before that, and if you are being honest, it seems awfully weird that you keep ignoring me. Post #1799 is the most recent time I quoted what you said. I'm totally open minded on that; just tell me what the intention was there.

Please never play mafia with mastina if it means all you wanna do is write nasty posts because no one wants to see that.

Before SU2, we never had any real issues. We approach things differently, but that has tended to work for the good since the vast majority of the time we've both been town together. I am not certain, but I suspect you probably know my issue with what happened in SU2 and the reasons why I found it particularly personal and hurtful.

I'm a fixer personality. If there's an issue, I'm a get it out in the open, deal with it, make up and spit shake and move on type. It is literally true that 99.99% of conflicts I am involved in progress as follows:

1.) Initially I go quiet and think about it. I try to reason out what's the problem, underlying factors, etc...
2.) I reach out to take care of it.
3.) A few months later I

might

remember there was a problem, but usually have a hard time giving much, if any, specific detail.
4.) A few months after that I won't even remember at all unless prompted, and even then I sometimes literally don't recall.

I don't understand the idea of holding a grudge when I could just take responsibility when I'm wrong, and use the experience to build a stronger friendship. Perhaps that's an artifact of where and when I grew up (Rural Maine back before stores could be open on Sunday in most of the country). Friendship means you take the occasional bad lemons and make lemonaide and sometimes you have to have a knock down fight and throw a few punches, but afterward you come out stronger friends for it, and that black eye is a badge of pride.

I know that I come across very dry and much more harsh in text only communication than I intend to be like 99% of the time (see earlier post where I realized that something I posted COULD be read as if it were dripping with condescension and sarcasm and I literally didn't at all mean it that way and felt the need to post so you would know!). It is, unfortunately I think, an old dog new tricks thing. I have never been able to express typing the way I do talking and in person. Many and many friends who have known me in both contexts have said something along the lines of "Drixx ... you are a great and funny and warm engaging guy in person, and even talking on {insert VOIP medium here}, but in text you're a fucking dick."

So far nobody has ever been able to offer any useful advice for fixing that.

As Drixx said in his entry to this game, his like for yume outweighed his distaste for mastina. Can't let people you dislike keep you from things you enjoy.

More accurate to say that the current unresolved tension was outweighed. Distaste is a place we haven't reached yet. That takes an act of the will. One has to know for certain that the thing they are saying or doing will hurt and do so with that intent before we get there. I don't believe anyone on the internet has managed that yet, as evidenced by the fact that I know literally nobody online whom I would not talk with if they said hi to me via some means of communication.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin: you still haven't answered Drixxs question, which you should probbaly do if you have any desire to have any sort of cordial conversation with him in the future(just a warning).

I mean that's his decision because if he thinks I'm going to have bias and call you scum no matter what, that's on him and we can't actually talk on a level playing field?

I had a scumread.
That scumread was correct.
He holds issue with the scumread.
But it was right.

He can cry right-for-the-wrong-reasons all he likes. I give credence to that by saying that I tend to bullshit with my reasoning, this is a known fact about me and I do it towards every player. But if he assumes it is something specific to him...I can't really change his stance there, now, can I? This is how I treat all players. I don't discriminate. If he assumes that I was making up a scumread because it was him, I can't really change his stance there, now, can I?

I've explained my methods before, I've explained how I operate, how it's a weird combination of both a methodical process and yet also whimsy, method to the madness, madness to the method. How I see things and try to build them up even if I don't fully understand them. How I will latch onto things, right or wrong. Sometimes I get things right, other times I get them wrong. As per what you'd expect in any game, I got some right and some wrong.

I've acknowledged multiple times things I got wrong. Chiefly Alisae, though I also contributed to the RadiantCowbells/Virtuoso debacle. And in spite of me making an epic case against Radical Rat multiple times in the PT, ultimately I'd have lynched Shiro before him so in that regard I read Shiro wrong and I wasn't too pleased with gerryoat either (and figured it wasn't my job to sort that anyway). I got a BUNDLELOAD of role stuff wrong. Assuming scum had a busdriver, for instance. Assuming I could game Varsoon's power when as per word of Aristophanes I couldn't. The like there.

But I'm not going to apologize for things I got right. Pushing you as scum. Being adamant Sappho was town. Correctly calling your role and even how N1 played out. And so on and so forth. I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to be right. Can you say you honestly disagree? That I don't have the right to be right, or that I don't have the right to be wrong? Because I simply fundamentally don't understand how anyone could hold that viewpoint.

I get some things right, I get some things wrong. Calling me a liar is saying I can't have that.

I appreciate the "I was right about you but wrong about X, Y and Zed" explanation. That's reasonable. The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to default to I and/or us are scum

every game

for awhile now. Enough to be notable (this could be a cognitive bias on my part; freely admitting this up front. Current tension could be highlighting something as an aberration when it's not). Perhaps there's something subconscious at play? The problem it creates is that you really don't explain your scum reads generally. You DO; however, despite just now openly admitting being right essentially about as often as random chance this game, play as if those reads are ironclad truth. You cannot be reasoned with and any evidence contrary gets hand waved away.

That makes it exceptionally difficult to work with you (when we're both town) and to properly read you (when we're town and you are not). When the only reason you have is instinct, and your instinct isn't right significantly higher than 50% of the time, I'm not sure playing as if it were an ironclad mechanical guilty is helpful. To you or to the people who have to try and reason with you.

The dialogue is useful though.

Still waiting for a response to #1799.

~D

[Cerberus v666]

Re: 1819.

Sure, it's his choice, but I'm just giving you the insight I, as someone who he has spoken with about things, has. Just letting you know that completely ignoring him(which is something you do A LOT when it comes to drixx or I pressuring you to lay out the reasoning being something. You just...ignore us.) wasn't going to be well received.

I'm pretty content given that you specified what post got your attention, why, and I know it was pure happenstance. ^^