Mini 566: Justice League Mafia Game Over

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Vote: Roffman

for being impatient, because patience is a virtue.

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Riktus, any reason for the speech?

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Could the two of you please keep your anti-America sentiments in your pants?

Also, Haschel, why the vote switch?

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Why would riktus soft-claim superman in his very first post?

Unvote. Vote Riktus

Try to look townie much, evildoer?

I know my theory on why he did it, but until he tells us himself, i don't want to give him ideas, if he is scum.

Superman wasn't the first thing I thought of, but I'm not going to share either.

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It hasn't stalled, we are waiting for J-man's replacement.

Or an answer from Riktus.

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I don't think his poem meant anything, and if it did, I'd rather not have him explain.

Why?

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I don't think his poem meant anything, and if it did, I'd rather not have him explain.

Why?

Think.

I have thought. I want him to explain why he made a spectacle of himself.

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maybe he doesn't actually know who the justice league is?

Who doesn't?

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I don't think his poem meant anything, and if it did, I'd rather not have him explain.

Why?

Think.

I have thought. I want him to explain why he made a spectacle of himself.

If Riktus was breadcrumbing/softclaiming, isn't the entire point of it kinda lost when he has to explain himself?

I don't recognize his speech as typical for one the justice league characters. If asking him to explain himself would mean he has to reveal his role, then I oppose that. It's not a good idea to have someone roleclaim this early in the game. If Riktus can explain his speech without unveiling his role, that's fine with me.

...I'm not stating my opinion on what I think he's doing, but can you think of a good reason why anybody would half-out themselves on page 1 in a game?

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So you're saying you have a post restriction. (This was my theory that I didn't want to say it and give anyone any ideas). And your post restriction is what then? Outting yourself?

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I'm not hunting. Right now, I see him as the most suspicious. He admitted to a post restriction. I'd like to know what it is ecaxtly so we can watch him and see if he's faking.

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That having been said, there's little else to talk about. It raised my eyebrows because, well, it was out of the ordinary. I mean... who does that? Why do that? Was it just a justice league joke or is it a post restriction? Is it an incredibly obvious breadcrumb? And if so, is it real? Mirth is right in suggesting that if its a post restriction we should know about it now and watch it to see if it's real. The reason being that mafia barely ever get post restrictions. So it can be used to look like a townie.

Except that probably the one time where you just let someone off for a post restriction without giving them grief is the one time its scum faking. Because that's how Murphy's Law works.

I have a theory as to who he might be, but its rather far fetched and I'm sure as heck no sharing. Just want to know what's up with the post restriction.

And I think the anti-America stuff was just general America-bashing which is al the rage nowadays and has nothing to do with the game at all.

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Any reason why you're so keen on defending him?

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I'm not going to be able to check any games for the next three days for personal reasons. Apologies.

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I'm still sort of V/LA, but I managed to snag a few minutes to check my games.

unvote: whoever I'm voting right now

vote: whoever suggested mass-claiming on day 1...cicero?

I do not believe in claiming unless absolutely necessary. I.E. not out of the blue on page 3. Don't need to go int the glaringly obviou reasons for why. Maybe you could provide me with a reason for asking? Looks like role fishing to me. Role fishing with a stick of dynamite.

Now I'm going back to being V/LA.

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It was obvious from the first that

riktus

had a post restriction hounding him about it serves no purpose at this stage of the game.

Except it isn't. He has a whole 2 posts. We don't know what the restriction is and whether or not its real. And I wouldn't hound him if he felt like answering. General law of Mirthdom: if you don't answer a question, I will bother you. A lot. Until you want to hit me with something blunt and heavy to shut me up.

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Mirth, who's scum? Pick three.

You, for asking, probably.

I can't tell you who's scum on *page 4.* Try asking me something easier.

@ Cicero: ...wait...you're saying that TSQ was demanding explanatins from other people?!? LIES!

@ Capricious: unless of course the scum have no safeclaims and in getting everyone elses role name go ahead and make up safeclaims for themselves off the Justice League roster. Also just knowing a person's name isn't going to help town any more than it will help scum. Therefore it is bad, bad, very bad. I am tempted to switch my vote from Cicero to you.

I also still want to hear more from Riktus.

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I can't tell you who's scum on *page 4.* Try asking me something easier.

You're no fun.

actr, since Mirth won't play with me, can you tell me who the three scum are?

Of course I'm no fun. Did Haschel forget to warn everyone else in this game who has yet to come across me that I'm no fun at all?

Also why do you say 3 scum? We don't know how many scum we have, unless there's something you're not telling us, Thesp.

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I am, and I'm not happy with you pushing it. In fact,

unvote:cicero

(I'm still not happy with you for suggesting mass claiming)

vote: Capricious

for continuing to bring it up.

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I don't think Capricious is scum here.

I think it's more important to figure out who BATMNAN is.

I think its too early to tell if he is or not.

BATMNAN is obviously Bizzaro-World Batman. Obviously.

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I think it's more important to figure out who BATMNAN is.

BATMNAN is the superhero who shows up when I'm drunk and can't figure out how to turn off the Caps Lock.

Lies. BATMNAN is in your heart - he's in everyone's heart. And someone's role PM.

Holy coronary artery disease, Batman! It appears that you evil twin is clogging up this poor man's circulation!

Sorry...I couldn't help myself

Hey, Thesp, you want to add me to the Open list? Pretty please with sugar on top? I'll give you a cookie and a pony?

Disclaimer: No, I won't actually. I'm not that nice

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Unvote: Capricious

Vote: Zoneace

L-2 already?I think that's going a bit too far.

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Page 5 with a few less than active people? You're confident that Capricious is scum then?

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Sweet.

Unvote. Vote Haschel

WTH? Why?

Also, Zoneace, that is where you and I differ in opinion. My vote stays for the time being.

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Ignoring Cicero's link, Capricious, scum gains more from mass claim than town. It's not just about powerroles. Why do you keep insisting?

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Mirth, either lighten up or change your name.

No can do. If you knew the source, you'd get the name (Let's just say I would consider going gay for Edith Wharton were she alive.)

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mmm, bit of a chin for my tastes. But you have fun.

Sadly I'm not into necrophilia. Or women.

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Hershel= not in this game
Capricious= trying to make me regret my unvote.

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I have no opinion of him. Based on previous experience I'm going to wait until he does something more than quite rightly harass you to form an opinion. And even then I probably would have problems forming one.

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I did read your comment. Don't think its necessarily obvious that you're pushing for conversation. Took me a while to figure it out myself (note how I have my vote on you at some point for suggesting mass claim. I am very against claiming unless absolutely necessary). See no problem in him being suspicious of you. He's not voting you so you're overreacting I think. It reeks of OMGUS, anyway.

As for Capricious, I unvoted him because I don't like the idea of L-2 on page 5 with not very much practicle conversation. I'm reconsidering it because he keeps pushing the mass-caim isnt bad and might be good point. See previous comment about how I think claims are bad. (I also think that Zoneace was too hasty with his vote, which might have prompted Capricious, who is already all gungho pro-claiming into actually claiming under threat of lynch, which if he's just a misguided townie, could have been bad.)

And now I'm going to sleep.

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Or you know, I voted for you while I was still sort of V/La and kind of distracted and totally missed that part. And mention of mass claim = sets off warning bells.

My vote was an honest vote. And right now it feels like dancing like a spastic monkey.

No response to my opinion that you're being too OMGUSy at Haschel?

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Thesp: Why are you defending Capricious?

Cicero: Note how I'm not harassing you about your mass claim comments. I did reread. Otherwise I would have continued. I do think your reaction to Haschel was too strong though. You're right about the way he posts though. Which is why I said I have no opinion of him and won't for a long while. I think he's impossible to get a read on.

Zoneace: Are you sure he's scum? On page 7? Why so hasty?

Cicero: I can't place that quote, but I'm tempted to declare my love for you for bringing up the Fountainhead.

Zoneace: so anyone who disagrees with your theory is a suspect?

Whome: how can we be successful in getting scum to claim first if we dont know who the scum are? Unless you're not telling us something?

Thesp: why are you happy with your vote?

Capricious: why are you stubbornly refusing to gt the point that mass claim helps scum more than town?

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Whome: how can we be successful in getting scum to claim first if we dont know who the scum are? Unless you're not telling us something?

I just mean the popcorn method. If the town is lucky with their picks, scum feature further up the list, so there is more chance of a counter claim as they have less info to make up their claims from.

Except that this depends entirely on luck as you mentioned. And scum might have safe claims anyway. (There are a gagillion Justic League characters. We don't know what the mod is up to.) A few too many what ifs in my opinion. And even if the scum claim first, they might still claim some obscure if viable character that no one else has because we don't know how mainstream the mod is going with the roles. So I fail to see any merits in your point. Also, we don't know how many and what type of scum we have. Just one mafia group? mafia and SK? two smaller mafia factions? We don't know what to look for. And are the badguys really Justice Leaue universe badguys or just heroes the mod decided were bad guys for the sake of this game.

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Also, this is what a massclaim would look like, anyway.

Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't get it?

Khelvaster, did you actually read the game? Because it's really not that long. And won't take that much effort. What with half the people not posting and all. Why are you continuing to beat the dead horse with the stick? I think we've sufficiently checked its pulse and come to the conclusion that its no more, its has ceased to be, its expired and gone to meet its maker.

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Other good candidates for scum: take your pick of people on my wagon. Scum like reasonable wagons where they won't appear suspicious, and my wagon fits because I was arguing for mass claim: a play that is traditionally viewed as bad. Therefore, scum feels they can look justified to wagon me.

Good candidates for town: Riktus, his post restriction feels genuine, I already have a good idea of who he is, and would be surprised if he is not revealed as that character. This is also why we need a replacement for Riktus: to test his post restriction.

A. Riktus has 2 posts. 2. One cannot have a good idea of who is town from a whole 2 posts, most of which are flavor. It is also page 8.
B. Or, you know, you could be scum yourself, since that is who'd benefit most from a mass claim. You're also playing the "they voted me so they must be scum" card.

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Simulpost. Darn

Some of the town might not have names? Are you kidding me. Who in the justice league doesn't have a name? We all have names, even the scum I expect - tho their names will be Lex Leuthor etc etc

WhoMe, why did you just claim a named role? You don't know for a fact if the rest of us have names, and if we're smart about it, none of us are going to tell you.

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how many nameless civvies do you suppose would be in Justice league HQ?

I'm not going to comment one way or the other other than you possibly said too much. Possibly not. Just wish you didn't say anything.

Cicero: why do you say you don't think actr will be around very long? Planning to kill him or something?

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The context of the post is obvious. I think he's not interested in the game and will eventually stop coming back to the board. As newbies often do. And I am challenging him to prove me wrong. How is that hard to see?

It's not so obvious if I have to ask. So you're saying its okay to be abrasive, just not in your general direction?

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I did not have to ask, just as I do not have to do anything. But I wanted it clarified. And I wanted to get a reaction out of you. (I could have asked in a more neutral manner, agreed). Right now I'm still reaction testing, though.

My comment to abrasiveness is in reference to your post in response to Capricious about why you were "goading" actr "harshly". Perhaps I should have included context. Question still stands though

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No, *you're* playing the semantics game with me now. Clarificiation *was* needed. I never negated that. Your original statement was not clear enough, I believe. I could have asked for clarification neutrally, though, which I believe is your problem with my asking, since I chose to do so in a manner almost guarenteed to get you to react negatively.

Maybe I'm being abrasive to you because I can't make you out yet. It does worry me, however, that when I question you, and when Haschel questioned your motives before, you respond only with attacks. I have no opinion of actr as of yet, as he has said nothing remotely of value, and that registers as a null to me. I could ask him nicely to actually contribute, but I don't think he'll react either way, honestly.

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Something came up, I won't be able to check games for the next 2 days. Sorry.

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I know I said I'd be back today, but the rest of this week is going to be oodles of Not!Fun (tm) and I think this is all I'll manage until Sunday.

Cicero 199: You seemed to have missed the fact that my original question was twofold. I asked

Cicero: why do you say you don't think actr will be around very long? Planning to kill him or something?

So to say that I didn't actually need clarifying is offbase. The first part was in fact a valid question, that, I admittedly could have left at just that. The second was just reaction fishing, yes.

Thesp, 200: I think you crossed out the wrong part there.

Khelvaster, 201: Maybe if you read all the arguements against claiming, you'd see that there have been arguments thrown out against *both* mass roleclaiming and mass name claiming

Roffman 210: then perhaps throw something else out there if you don't like how the discussion is going.

Khelvaster 211: You're *still* trying to push for a mass claim? Sweet baby jesus on toast, did you read *any* of the points against claiming?

And now back to Not!Fun time.

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Argh. Back from real life...

I seem to have not missed much.

I meant to do this earlier:

unvote:Zoneace

I still think you were a bit hasty with the L-2, but considering how annoyingly persistent Capricious is still being, I now no longer blame you.

Speaking of Capricious, why is he still pushing the point? I'm not liking that Khelvaster chimed in.

On that, Thesp makes an interesting point that Capricious could be a townie. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm starting to think that either Capricious or Khelvaster is scum. Probably not both because that would involve some really dumb scum basically outing themselves together (unless we have 2 scum factions). One of them could be tryin to take advantage of the others ridiculous idea. If that's the case I'm leaning toward Khelvaster for not talking for a while, and then chiming in with th call for a claim.

Ooba: your refusal to explain your post restriction is noted. I will lay off for now, but thats only because I have a theory about what your post restriction is. I shall be watching your posts to see if there is a pattern.

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More lynching of WhoMe?, please. Thanks!

FOS Thesp.

So you want to lynch the one person who has hung themselves out by stating they believe there are no vanilla pro-townies in the game, thus effectively admitting I have both a name and a power. Explain please?

Darwin damnit, Whome! Why in the seven blazes of the not fun not happy place below did yo have to just *confirm* you're a power role? (Or scum. Either fits)

Seriously? Why?

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More lynching of WhoMe?, please. Thanks!

FOS Thesp.

So you want to lynch the one person who has hung themselves out by stating they believe there are no vanilla pro-townies in the game, thus effectively admitting I have both a name and a power. Explain please?

Darwin damnit, Whome! Why in the seven blazes of the not fun not happy place below did yo have to just *confirm* you're a power role? (Or scum. Either fits)

Seriously? Why?

? I outed myself several posts ago. you commented at the time. Given that it's already out there there's no point my being coy about it.

My comment boiled down to "why the heck did you do that and stop it." Now you went and crossed the rhetoric line and softclaimed. Softclaims are bad, bad, very bad. Now we have a problem. Do we left the softclaim slide? Or do we force a full claim out of you so you can't use other people as a guage for what roles are available?

Hmmm...hard choice. I thnk soft claims are a cardinal sin...but then again I'm also pretty much anti-claiming until its unavoidably necessary.

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Now firing up the ModProd UltraDeluxe!™

That sounds like some kind of lawn care device

Whome, what you did wrong is confirmed it. Unless you're scum yourself, you just basically painted a big "kill me" sign on your back for tonight. (Well...there are other factors involved here, but I'm not going to speculate because that might make things worse). You also softclaimed. "I'm an unspecified power role" which opens up a can of worms for WIFOM and counterclaiming in the future.

Now then, I urge you to say nothing more until there's a town concensus on what the best course of action in regards to your soft claim should be.

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Yet again, Capricious, I shall say this: town gains less from massclaims than scum. Now can you stop bringing up how great they are?

Thesp: I don't find Whome? as the best candidate for scum at the moment. Mirth is a better one, but she is still neither a good fit for scum.

Why?

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Roffman, how come yu've had nothing much else to say before this.

I'm not going to argue the stupidity of massclaiming any longer because its obvious the two of you are willfully ignoring everything said against them. I don't think both of you are scum, as that woud be too fortunate, but one of you most probably is. I am leaning toward Khelvaster at the moment, but not by much.

Capricious: you never answered my question 3 posts ago. Also do *you* have a reason to vote Roffman now? Can you explain why he's the best candidate for scum?

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Mod:

you might want to check your vote count. I distinctly remember unvoting Zoneace.

Capricious: why are you avoiding answering my questions? Also why are you misdirecting the conversation? It should be obvious that finding scum and discussion of massclaims are not mutually exclusive, as you're trying to suggest with the not-so-subtle "leave us alone, go scumhunt" you're trying to pull.

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EBWOP: almost missed Thesp's question there.

Thesp, the Justice League has a lot of members. Scum can just claim some random obscure member or someone not yet mentioned. What town learns from a nameclaim is names of characters, some of which might not be trust worthy. (We don't know how the mod assigned scum roles, whether they're villians or heroes randomly assigned as scum, whether they have safe claims, etc.) Scum learns the same thing, but they also get a head start on the role hunting. To use a nonjustice league example because i really rather not speculate about roles in this game: Suppose we're in a fantasy theme game, everyone has a role. Lets assume townies claim some of the following: elf, ranger, high priest, archer, farmer, etc. Even if the correlation is not one to one, it is more probable that the elf would be the doctor based on the innateness of the character name. And even if the elf is not the doctor, he is probably much more likely to be a power role than the farmer. While we can argue back and forth that character name does not necessarily give away power role, its still too much of a starting point. The scum already have a heads up on town in that they know who is on their side. Why should we do anything that might add to their already existent advantage?

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Sigh. I give up on the semantics debate.

Capricious, in terms of superheroes, since you still don't get it, here is a better analogy: Lets say we have a game with Aquaman and Superman. Who are scum more likely to go after based on just name information? My point is not that it is necessary it is that even that smidgen of a hint is *bad*. This is *not* an invitation to try and guess which superhero has what powers. This is just a statement that in the Justice League universe there exist power imbalances, and it more likely for scum, once everyone has name claimed, to go after the more powerful character from comic knowledge because there will probably be a sync up.

Also you still have not answered my questions about why you were suspicious of me before and why you think Roffman is scum. Why are you avoiding them?

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I fel like there is some unspoken role-based motive going on with capricious and/or khelvester. They want this too badly and are far too thick about it. :/

I halfway second that. At first I thought Khelvester was possible scum going along with the bad idea of a dense townie. Now I'm nt too sure

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And this is exactly *why* I advocated a mass nameclaim. Let's say Superman can't be nightkilled as his special ability. If I were Superman, I would nameclaim, be targetted by scum, and deny them their NK.

I'm not saying I am superman--this is just an example of why nameclaiming isn't necessarily a bad idea. Also, if we get really obscure claims, that helps us narrow down the scum (Superman probably isn't scum.)

Unless of course one of the scum has Superman as a safeclaim because there is no Superman in the game. (This is just the kind of speculation I wished to avoid, but your blindness to the possibilities makes it unavoidable). You also can't predict that someone will have the bulletproof townie ability. More likely than not they don't. So then you're just exposing potential powerroles with no guarenteed gain.

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Capricious: could you please condense your posts?

Ooba: I'm indecisive. I don't know about scum candidates, but here is what I find even mildly suspicious, so far, in no particular order, just things I'll be watching:
Zoneace: pushing a bandwagon too strongly too early. If Capricious is scum, I'd be more suspicious of him. I'm laying off for now though because I'm more interested in figuring out whether Khelvester or Capricious is where my vote if going.
Roffman: admits to lurking because the discussion is not productive. Why not make try to turn the conversation in a manner that he does like?
Ooba: still watching your restriction. I'm not just going to trust on blind faith that you're town because you seem to have one.
Cicero: the whole long debate with me.
everyone else I don't have much of a read on yet. Whether its because theyre not posting very much or because theyve yet to say anything worth watching.

The main thing I'm thinking right now is this:
While Capricious is obviously pushing the issue way more than Khelvester, he may just be genuinely dense. I don't know. (See, Hascel, I learned ^___^) But he is pushing awfully hard. Khelvester is kind of egging this whole thing on from the sidelines. I very much would like to vote Capricious for the blatantness, but part of me thinks that Khelvester would probably have a bigger chance of being scum because of the lack of originality and the subtleness of what he is pushing.

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I would like you to answer why, in your position, you have denounced mass claiming, while cicero brought up the question himself. You two have the same roles.

Thought I'd throw my two cents in here, but role doesn't always have anything to do with it. I personally am very anticlaim everywhere, be it vanilla or nonvanilla.

Roffman, any reason why you think I'm scum besides vibes?

I'm also going to

vote:Khelvaster

because its getting close to deadline, and while I really don't like how Capricious is playing, I think Khelvaster is more likely to be scum because hes not very contributive on top of spouting not very protown strategies.

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Everything everywhere boils down to WIFOM, including the existance of the universe. So can we stop with that now?

Haschel: I dont think the point is if the logic is consistent with itself but whether it makes any sense to begin with. One can argue a point consistently but base it on nonsense. Regardless I am rather concerned as to why Thesp is defending Capricious so much and Zoneace wants him dead that badly...

Roffman: do you have anything productive to add to the game? Because you really haven't added anything of value yet.

on the modkill: that would be kind of unfair, wouldn't it?

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I would be perfectly fine killing actr, since I believe Capricious is town. Lynching a lurker is fine when no scum presents itself.

So does this mean that actr isn't in your scumgroup then?

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I dont think actr will be around to claim...as to Khel...maybe...if the mod is determined to get rid of actr, then probly not. If the mod might listen to majority rules, then yes, he should claim.

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Does the mod's willingness to kill actr imply that actr is town?

No. It implies the mod is fed up with him.

Zoneace: so you want 2 kills today instead of one?

Also, I am for extending the deadline to get a replacement We're on page 13 so catching up can't be that bad.

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Yay ^_^ Thank you Mr. Lawn Ornament ^_^

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Roffman voted Khel? I totally missed that.

Roffman, do you have anything at all to add? Like a reason? Because you didn't state one. At all. At least WhoMe, whose vote also bothers me, was "well, he's not my main suspect, but I don't like him either and it'll be a lynch."

Now I usually don't harass nonplayers. Except when they ignore multiple attempts by other people at questioning them.

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Roffman, that's all well and good for the last couple of days, but this has been pretty much your entire time in the game.

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Well...I guess that publically confirms that we do have vanillas in this game.

I'm a little confused here. What is a hiding townie? I have not seen the role before, so if someone could be a dear and explain it, that would be great. (Does this mean if certain conditions are met, Zoneace can come back?

Also 2, possibly 3, kills. Choking and beating and disapearing? What do we have at play here? Mafia, SK, Vig? Was Zoneace actually killed or did he do it to himself? I'm going to guess Roffman was probably a vig kill because he was one of the most suspicious players yesterday. The other two, not so sure...that and now we can't know who WhoMe targeted (I also have to once more repeat, WTH did he have to soft claim?)...so we might have another killer loose if Zoneace did it to himself, assuming he's dead and not coming back. Hmmm...

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It seems increasingly likely that Khelvaster is indeed one of the scum, but in the interests of allowing him time to claim should he wish to, I won't add my vote to the pile, in case someone jumps in and hammers.

It seems like Capricious has been keeping very quiet as well - keeping his head under the parapet?

I was keeping quiet because I couldn't find words to express the frustration at people bandwagoning Khelvaster and lynching him, when he was obviously town, and when I had already expressed why he was obvious town.

He was *not* obviously town. He was half-advocating a faulty line of reasoning, that, we can in retrospect say would have given him an advantage since he was the cop, but he was *not* playing in a very protown manner.

To your comment on choking, well, almost any superhero (save Aquaman) is probably strong enough to strangle...so it doesn't really tell us anything, but I woulg agree that WhoMe is not a vig kill because a vig wouldn't target a claimed powerrole.

And Mass claiming is still *not* the correct play. (Look at how WhoMe, who could have been useful, is now probably dead from softclaiming) Yesterday I just thought you were probably misguided. Not so sure now that you still won't stop.

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Read up, Khel was a rolename cop, and his name of Phantom Stranger doesn't fit with his role. Roffman was a vanilla, and his name of Green Arrow wouldve led the scum to believe he was a vig. If we had actually mass claimed, Whome? wouldnt have been the target of choice for scum.

You can't say that. What if we have Batman around? Batman would be a *much* more likely vig than Green Arrow. (I could give more examples here as to why you're wrong, but it wouldn't be in the best interest of the town if I took this to superhero meta.) Unless you're scum yourself, you can't predict what scum would have done based on names. You also can't assume that name alone would play into it. WhoMe softclaimed having a power role. Soft claims outweigh name-based mod-outguessing any day.

Choking is a dishonorable way of killing? And beating to death isn't? What *is* an honorable way of killing then? Do you like have a post restriction not to make sense or something?

I'm also not going to go down the "if Khel were still alive road." Its pointless now that he's dead, and even if he claimed cop yesterday, I, at least, probably wouldn't have believed him. Especially since his power is very specific and begs the question of another investigative role existing. (This is something I'm *not* going to go into in depth speculating about and suggest no one else does either)

SL, that was an interesting point about them being lovers in the comics. Didn't know that...would agree that its coincidence though since Roffman's manner of death doesn't suggest suicide.

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However, as we now know that there are vanilla townies in play, a mass role claim as things stand is a really stupid idea.

I'm not sure how vanilla townies affect this, and I'm not sure why we should presume

any

game doesn't have vanilla townies.

Thesp's unexplained suspicion of WhoMe and Roffman's general lack of helpfulness stood out.

If you think my suspicion of WhoMe? was unexplained, I'm not sure you've read at all. WhoMe? said I didn't give reasons, but that doesn't mean he was

right

.

You can't say that. What if we have Batman around? Batman would be a *much* more likely vig than Green Arrow.

This line of discussion is specious at best, unhelpful at worst.

Until then, I'm not sure that ZONACE is coming back, because if he did, he'd be mod-confirmed town.

I agree on mod-confirmed likely-town if and only if dead scum show up in other colors than blue. (I've had a scum that could feign death in a game before.) Either way, I think such speculation is unhelpful until his return (if at all).

Vote: Sierra.

First, your reasons on WhoMe weren't all that great actually and invalidated by your persistence after he softclaimed.

Second, My comment is not anything that has not already been said (go back to the beginning of the massclaim discussion.) I am simply *yet again* trying to point out that Capricious is spouting nonsense.

Third, WTF? WHY are you voting Sierra?

[Mirth]

Yet there is a general argeement that Batman is more likely to be a power role than any other random super hero. Which is more or less still my point. You can't guareentee that scum would go after a townie through mass role claim because townie name fits with a powerrole because there may be an actual powerrole with a more obvious name for being a powerrole regardless of what it is.

Not to death, sure superheroes seem to enjoy picking up the badguy by the throat and dangling him a few inches of the ground. Comment was still sort of stupid though.

[Mirth]

Your only point against WhoMe was that he was fine with the massclaim and suggested a method for doing it after he said he's seen it end badly before. After that you kept blindly attacking him for it. Didn't back off when he softclaimed (which would have been the more prudent and safer route). Your suspicion was weak to begin with and then went into blind pursuit territory.

You also failed to answer my question for why you're voting Sierra.

I'm going to have to

vote:Thesp

because you did ask for votes and suspicions. Why? Well avoiding a question about a senseless vote on one of the least suspicious people here, in my opinion.

[Mirth]

I'm not sure what to think yet of Thesp voting me (or Mirth calling me one of the least suspicious people here, for that matter).

Think what you want, I don't particularly care, since you're not currently arousing my suspicions. At this point I'm more concerned with Thesp's actions (which also included much defense of Capricious). While Capiricious could very well be scum, previous experience tells me to proceed with some caution here. My other main suspect is dead.

[Mirth]

Hey Ooba, nothing to say about democracy?

Seth: I don't think that's particularly significant but it might be at some later point in time...Whome softclaimed, Zoneace is probably not permanantly gone, and roffman was the second scummiest acting person around day 1 (which is why I think he was vigged. Unless we have multiple scum groups and one tried to off a member of the other. And by multiple scum groups I mean mafia and SK, since I think this is too small a game for 2 mafias...unless its something like 2 2 person teams)

[Mirth]

Gah, real life issues. Sorry, will be useless next few days.

[Mirth]

Sorry I have been swallowed up by life lately. I'm going to be gone for another few days due to very very bad computer issues. Hopefully my computer will stop crashing by Weds. Hopefully.

[Mirth]

I'm stealing a couple of minutes to post, I still don't have internet at home. Hopefully my internet card will come in today. Sorry for the absence.

Responding to stuff now:

Thesp: Your case against WhoMe was still quite weak. As for Sierra, well, his accusations weren't "safe" which you seem to equate with useless. Why are you defending Capricious so much? Is he your scumbuddy or something?

Sierra: Previous experience tells me to be careful. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5806 Sometimes townies say very very very stupid things.

Haschel: sooooo what is it that these voting patterns tell you exactly?

And now I need to get back to work. Hopefully I'll get my internet back today. Hopefully

[Mirth]

Sadly my internet drama will continue. (SIGH.) I'm going to be V/LA until I get a chance to figure out where FedEx's headquarters is and haul my behind over there.

Sooo Haschel, what do you think of my previous vote on Cicero then (I've mainly backed off since he stopped being the most suspicious person around, fyi. You can't honestly tell me that Capricious and Khel weren't both scummier, and Zoneace had a shining moment there too. I also can't vouch for where Cicero choose to stick his vote. Not my problem), my lone vote on Zoneace, and my current lone vote on Thesp? I'm also curious as to why you didn't include yourself in the chart. And why you have nothing at all to say about Ooba/Riktus's non-playing.

Since I'm having a bad day (finding out I have to magically teleport a couple of towns over for a computer part does that), here's one for you:

Haschel
Post 0: vote Mirth(1)
Post 1: unvote(0) vote Roffman (2) <---oh it looks like you followed my vote here
Post 7: unvote (), vote Khel (1)
Post 16: vote Mirth (1)
total posts: 16

Sooo you started the wagon on Khel, seem to have issues with me, and besides that haven't been playing much.

And now back to being V/LA

[Mirth]

Still no net in apartment, sneaking in some net time before heading home.

I won't have net access until Monday evening at the earliest. Sigh...My apologies.

[Mirth]

My internet issues are still not resolved. I dont have time to post right now but I will tomorrow afternoon. My access from now on will be limited as I don't know when this whole mess will be resolved with the computer and tech support has not been helpful. I'm really sorry for this.

[Mirth]

I'm still V/LA. Can only post briefly on weekdays due to internet issues. Don't know whens its going to stop hating me.

Haschel: notice how my vote came after a real life hijacking and I was going a reread. Zoneace, I should have moved off earlier, but I wasn't sure who bothere me more, Khel or Capricious.

Thesp: soooo townies argue crap points to death?

Ooba: sooo your post restriction isn't what I thought it was...back to the drawing bard.

Seth: why did you just pull the newbie card? plan on using it again later?

SL: I agree with most of your post, but WhoMe played badly for outing himself in the first place, not the don't lynch me part.

[Mirth]

Still V/LA. Solitary post for day.

Seth: Not strange that only one person is post restricted if he is. Could be scum faking, could be mod trying to quell mod outguessing. Unless its a theme of post restrictions or bastard modding, doesn't really matter how many there are.

"Well avoiding a question about a senseless vote on one of the least suspicious people here, in my opinion."

You really feel Sierra is the least suspicious person here? What do you have to say about thesp's accusations of him 'playing safe' with his posts?

I think Thesp is full of ~insert not nice word here~ about that. It's not playing it safe if you're going after the most suspicious people around with an actual argument and not just agreeing with the crowd. Sierra isn't just assenting to "you all think he's scum so he must be scum." He's actually putting forward a case. Note where my current vote it, by the way.

Why do you think I might be scum? Why do you think Sierra might be scum? Why do you think SL might be scum? Why do you think Haschel and Thesp are town?

Other things: my vote on Cicero was after a disapearance when I was doing a read through in a bought of exhaustion. Why he didn't vote for me, I can't say.
-I still actually think you mention what your post restriction is, because I'm not seeing a pattern, but I'm not going to push it anymore because it's kind of obvious that you aren't going to explain it.
-Why do you say 2 mafia/1 SK? Do you know this for a fact? Do you think the Roffman kill was an SK kill rather than a vig kill? Why?

Back to the land of being productive and not having interweb at home. Sigh

[Mirth]

Seth, I assume the beating to death was scum not because of the method of killing but because of the target. A protown killing role should not be stupid enough to target someone who softclaimed...

Back to productivity and no internet

[Mirth]

Thesp: thing is, Sierra's argument wasn't "he's pushing mass claim therefore he's scum" his argument was more along the lines of "he's doing nothing but pushing mass claim" The issue isnt the mass claim in and of itself, but the fact that Capricious hadn't said much not related to it.

SL: I echo the wanting to hear more from Ooba. I'm more interested in the either or contingencies than the amount of people hes suspicious of. I'd also like reasons for said suspicions.

[Mirth]

I don't know. I don't really see that as a secondary arguement so much as a distinction in reasoning...(also don't see it as playing it safe)...but I am interested in what Sierra thinks since I'm getting tired of defending him. Would like to see him defend himself.

I'm also getting kind of sick of pretty much just arguing with Thesp. If anyone else feels like jumping in, that would be great.

[Mirth]

I have nothing to add to the discussion because not much has happened since my last post.

My computer has however crashed...so posting will continue to be sparse from me.

[Mirth]

Mirth didn't have serious computer issues until her warranty ran out. (I'm trying to work but thats not working so I might as well dawdle on here. Darwin knows next time I'll have a chance to sit around on the interwebs)

On Capricious: on one hand his argument is pure crap logic and not helpful in the least, and he hasn't said much else (but then again this game is stagnant, and I'm honestly more interested in hearing more from Ooba and Haschel). On the other, the reason I'm not sure what to make of him is that I don't know if scum could seriously be that generous with the crap logic. It's like putting a "lynch me" sign on his own back. So he's either a bad townie or scum trying to look like a bad townie. Hence the caution. Can scum really be that dense, is it an act, what?

[Mirth]

Activity shouldn't really matter, unless its really really bad lurking. Like 2 posts per game or something. Prod him but I'm more concerned about his uselessness when he does post.

[Mirth]

unvote:Thesp
vote: Sethaniel

I don't like Ooba much either but I don't like your vote on him right now, and would much rather hear him explain himself than get rid of him. It doesn't sit right. If his message bothered you so much, why didn't you vote him before? We also don't actually know what his post restriction is (though I'd like him to explain it).

[Mirth]

I do not know this for a fact but the fact remains that we had 3 kills yesterday night. That strongly points to the existence of an SK IMO. I can’t make deductions on who/which faction made which kills ..

Wrong. We had 2 deaths. Zoneace might be coming back.

Also you might like to note that I have been attacking Capricious. I'm just not sure if he's a bad townie (which past experience has shown is possible) or scum playing like a bad townie.

How is Sierra noncommital exactly?

You also explained why you think Sierra and I are scum, but "Mirth spent day 1 arguing with SL and Capricious therefore one of them must be scum with her" is not a valid argument on either of them.

As for how many scum we have, I'm not going to rule anything out. I just came out of a mini with 3 mafia and 1 SK...btw @ Capricious: we might be in LYLO based on 2 conditions. One, is Zoneace coming back? And two, it depends on the break down. Town is not in LYLO if there are two scum factions. Town just has a harder time and must tun turn the scum factions against each other.

Ooba, you're probably going to ignore this request, but can you please explain to all of us what your post restriction is exactly? Just post restriction. No role claiming, explaining abilities, or anything of that sort. Just the restriction itself.

Seth, I'm still waiting for you to explain yourself a bit more on the hastiness of your vote.

[Mirth]

I don't know if we're in LYLO or not Haschel, note what I have said but mod flavour says he hid himself. I think he'll be back as mod confirmed. You have anything else to say? About anything at all? Since you don't talk too much.

[Mirth]

Good. I got an answer from you. (And you're right, I didn't express suspicion of you. Because I'm still trying to get a read on you. This is Mirth fishing...I'm more suspicious of Haschel and Thesp, actually. Not sure which I'm more suspicious of actually...speaking of

unvote:Sethaniel

since I don't have a good read on you and I think the two of them are more likely to be scum, possibly together...vote will go to one of them after a reread) You switched your vote citing the pending deadline. That bothered me. You didn't vote him when he was being suspicious but when mod announced deadline. Perhaps my explanation of my vote sucked, but I don't find Ooba to be the top candidate for a lynch and I wanted to see how you'd react to my voting you. BTW, you just put me at L-2, are you willing to push my bandwagon further? Who are your top suspects besides me?

[Mirth]

Did a read-skim-through on the two players that bothered me most (even though I've been posting more, I'm still having computer issues, so I can't really read much backlog). Haschel bothers me in that hes only focusing on me, but I'm going to have to go back to voting Thesp.

vote:Thesp

. Because of pushing for a lynch on WhoMe with no reason behind it, defending Capricious where no defense was warranted, and pushing a crap-argument against Sierra. I'm starting to think Haschel might have a win condition that involves me specifically dead or something because of the singlemindedness.

[Mirth]

I see Thesp is asking me to claim. Is anyone else for this?

[Mirth]

I see Thesp is asking me to claim. Is anyone else for this?

I will vote for you if you don't.

You're ready to put an L-1 vote on me because I'm asking for a second opinion on what might just be role fishing. Go right ahead. I love how you're so easily dissuaded from your attempts at getting a Sierra bandwagon going.

(For the record, I do realize that if nothing changes, then I'm the deadline lynch, and I will claim if I feel I need to. But at the moment, seeing as my prime suspect for scum is the one asking for a claim from me, I'd rather have a couple of second opinions on whether y'all want me to claim now or wait a bit longer.)

[Mirth]

Well Thesp forced the L-1...

I am the Martian Manhunter. I have 3 one-shot abilities. Mind-read (find out alignment), shapeshift (gain the powers of another superhero for the next night), and track, all not 100% effective because this strange environment is screwing around with my martian physiology. I used a mind-read on Capricious last night and the mod message was that it didn't work and I melted into a puddle of green goo. I'm guessing I'm 50/50 or something, but that's why I laid off on my assault on Capricious. Couldn't get an alignment on him. I'm planning on using the shapeshift tonight, but that might not be an option.

I also really didn't want to claim (see Mirth's Theory That Claiming Is Bad, Bad, VERY BAD), but Thesp forced it. I am not happy.

[Mirth]

This again brings up the issue of LYLO, for if we were at LYLO (3 scum) and Mirth is town, then we can clear me, Singing Librarian, and Sierra, and of course, reduce the scum to 3 among the four voting for Mirth.

WTF? Now does this clear you, SL and Sierra? My role/flavor has no impact on yours.

And why in the name of all that is good and holy did you just claim? When I have time later tonight I'm going to have to look into who the heck Gypsy is but this bothers me. Just because I claimed (I was at L-1 and pretty much had to) doesn't mean "yay lets all claim!"

And "it would be prudent to not disclose any possibilities of my role into the open"?!? You say this *after* you claimed with no provocation?

Right now I need to get back to work, but later this evening, I think I'm doing a reread on Capricious because he makes my head hurt.

Also, I already warned the mod about this via pm, but he did not get back to me, but

I'm going to be v/la may 11-26

. since i'm going to be in a foreign country, i don't know what the net access will be like. I'll try to check stuff every three days or so, but i can't promise anything. i will try though.

[Mirth]

I have just done a reread on Capricious, and, while his play bothers me a lot, I still can't get it out of my head that he might just be a dumb townie. (Damn you, experience, damn you!) If it comes down to preventing a nolynch, I'm not sure what's the best way to play this. If we're in LYLO (that is Zoneace isn't coming back, because I think that his return can still be a factor in the game, even if he gets a big "NK me" sign painted on his back for it) with one scum group (just mafia), then we need to be darn sure we're lynching scum. If we have 2 scum groups, it would be a stupid move to lynch a townie, but we wouldn't lose automatically because they could turn against each other. So since I'm not sure about Capricious (hey Haschel, his play so far makes me think he's the mutant lovechild of Grek and Ben...incidentally Ben turned out to be town in the other game I was stuck with him in too...) I'm not sure of I'd be willing to vote him to avoid no lynch. I'd much prefer a lynch of someone more suspicious. Speaking of suspicious people...

So Mirth is a Jack of All Trades. I believe the Claim.

I call opportunistic bull on this. A couple of posts ago, you call me mafia scum, and post a line about how you'll need to think about the claims. (Capricious's shouldn't be an issue yet as to role, just the fact that he nameclaimed unnecessarily makes me want to throw things). Now you believe my claim. What changed between your last post and this one? A bunch of other people said they believed my claim. Oh, and if you believe my claim, I have to ask, why are you still voting me?

Looking at the power levels of the town, i think we could be looking at 1 Mafia GF,1 Mafia Roleblocker,1 Mafia Goon,1 SK.[/b]

Why are you so sure we have an SK? Why are you so sure from before that Sierra is the SK? I'm starting to think that if we do have an SK, then it's probably you.

And your post restriction, which today seems to be railing against the forces of evil instead of going on and on about democracy like yesterday, does revealing it get you modkilled or something?

I gave Seth grief for voting you...yet the more you talk the more I'm starting to regret that.

[Mirth]

Oh messed up quote tags. Sorry bout that. I'm sure you all can understand it anyways

[Mirth]

I don't like how how Capricious is positive that Sierra and SL are town or his estimations of scum automatically quick lynching.

Since I'm leaving tomorrow afternoon, none of you are even looking at Thesp or Haschel as potential suspects, I think Sierra is town, and I can't make a call on Capricious, I'm going to

unvote:Thesp

since this vote is useless.

Mod:

can I place a conditional if-then vote?

[Mirth]

I'm leaving for the airport now. Since I'm going to be missing deadline, and I think a mislynch would be worse than no lynch (statistically, we're not necessarily in LYLO now regardless of whether we have one scum group or two. If there are two, we're not in LYLO because they have to off each other. If there is one and Zoneace is dead as you all assume, the we probably have 8 total and 3 scum. Mislynch now would mean 7-3 going into the night and unless the vig targets correctly we lose. No lynch now would put us 8-3 going into the night, and, assume the vig doesn't kill incorrectly we'll just be in LYLO tomorrow.)

I'm going to

vote: no-lynch

I don't like how this game seems to be headed toward a Sierra wagon. Despite Capricious calling my last post useless, I have be rather upfront with my suspicions (btw, I find it interesting that Haschel is just sort of blindly following Thesp toward the Sierra wagon...and Haschel before that was pretty much only attacking me. I think Haschel and Thesp might be a scum pair) and none of you have been paying one whit of attention to them. The people I consider most town have been blindly attacking Capricious and not really paying much attention to the rest of the players. (I also don't really have much of a read on Seth yet, and Ooba is bothering me more and more with every post. I think he might be the SK if we have an SK). So since this is the case and a lot of you haven't been really participating in this game, instead of voting someone after informed discussion (which hasn't been going on. There wasn't much of a case on me, and there's no real case on Sierra now) I'm going to play it safe with a no-lynch vote. It won't really help much, but it's the only option I see that won't end up hurting the town more, since discussion has yielded so little and the current wagons suck.

I'm going to go now. If I get a chance to check this game again, it won't be for a few days. I sent my night choice in already.

[Mirth]

I am still away this is the first time i got a chance to check the interwebs...dont know when ill check again, just wanted to pop in and say i did not forget this game.

I sent in shapeshift. Im not sure if it worked, because I got no modmessage back...maybe I sent it in wrong because from my pm i was under the impression it was a selftargetting ability...

We probably do have 2 scum groups...and a one shot vig?

i need to go now, will post coherent thoughts when i get home or get better access

[Mirth]

I sent in shapeshift. Im not sure if it worked, because I got no modmessage back...maybe I sent it in wrong because from my pm i was under the impression it was a selftargetting ability...

You explained your shapeshifting ability as "gain the powers of another superhero for the next night". It seems obvious to me that you need to target someone to gain their power. Why didn't you choose to track someone? That ability would seem more useful to me at the time.

I am still in Europe still with virtually no internet. In internet cafe for next 10 or so minutes.

As to shapeshift, my pm lead me to believe, the way it was worded, that shapeshift did not need a target. (It gave me the impression that power gains would be random). I dont know if it worked. This is probably my fault as I sent it in before night was announced due to the whole packing thing. As for why I picked shapeshift over track, well, I figured that theres a good chance i wouldnt live very long either way. None of my abilities are 100% as far as I can tell, so I took a chance at gaining another ability, hoping that any shapeshifted ability would be guareenteed. I dont know if it worked though, because I dont know if Im still me.

Im also going to have to throw a huge FOS at Haschel as scum buddies with Thesp and Capricious, for his hasty vote on SL (were in LYLO...voting is bad). Im also going to have to retract my opinion that Sierra is town. Calling for massclaim in LYLO with scum probably outnumbering town = BAD idea. I need to go now.

[Mirth]

hi guys, i just got back and am suffering jet lag and general exhaustion. just posting to check in. will respond to posts when i finally get some sleep. (probably later tonight)

[Mirth]

Okay I'm back now fully. My computer issues have been resolved and I should be back up at normal posting rate now. Now to answer all the stuff I haven't had a chance to answer.

So, you think that you and SL are the only townspeople left?

We're looking at a two-man scumgroup with an SK. Any more scum and the game would have ended.

No it wouldn't have. SK keeps scum group from winning. Based on all the power roles floating around, 2 person scum group and an SK would be darned unfair to the scum, and I don't think the mod made the set up that biased. I'd put my money on a 3 person scumgroup and an SK with some kind of other power.

I agree it was hasty; I did not run the numbers before voting.

If you agree it was hasty, why did you do it?

why Mirth thinks there are only two townies left (as HC points out, that's clearly not true) and why the continued hate for poor Sierra. Particularly the last one, as it seems a relatively popular opinion - what is the case on Sierra, really?

See above. We have power roles. A bunch of them. Unless it was pure bastard modding, mafia would have to be more than 2 people (unless theyre also insanely powered, but I don't really see any mafia powers that can compensate for 2 cops...). I'm guessing 3 because with 4 mafia, game would have been over. Now then we also have a second scum group killing at night. Probably an SK. Which again redoubles my belief that we don't just have 2 mafia. I know I'm playing the mod outguess game here, but mafia would pretty much not have a chance at all if there were just 2 of them.

As for Sierra, well, I spent a good deal of time defending him, but his latest call for a mass claim bothers me. I don't think mass claim is beneficial to town in this situation.

On Sierra, post 523: I think you're looking for breadcrumbs that aren't there. Note how we have 2 dead cops. And Haschel was not the scummiest acting person day 1, so to assume that Ooba investigated Haschel is not a very strong arguement. (Also Haschel and Thesp have been pretty much on the same wavelength all game, so Ooba might have been saying that because he agreed with their opinions).

Also Oobas comment about the possibility of a mafia roleblocker coupled with your statement that he might have been roleblocked does not compute. If he got an innocent on Haschel, he could not have been roleblocked. If he was roleblocked, how do we know it wasn't WhoMe who roleblocked him?

My conclusion: I'm not going to give Haschel a pass from my suspicions...also, the two cops might have different functions based on their names...were they both sane?

Capricious 526: No, Thesp is being logical for once. See above.

Thesp 527: Wow...I agree with you on something...that town needs to hit mafia today mainly to have a chance and that SK needs to hit mafia too (which will help town). Don't like the calls for claiming though, as claiming gives scum more info than town.

SL, 528: I doubt 2 person scum, but I agree that Thesp and Capricious are probably partners. See above point on why we can't assume Haschel was investigated by Ooba.

Sierra, 529: Massclaim right now is bad because what will happen is scum will look up obscure superheroes and claim vanilla. It won't really tell anyone anything, except that the townie who isn't me will give away his/her real name and flavor. Doesn't help town any.

Also, if you actually bothered reading, I said I *think* I'm 50%. I don't actually know. I just know I'm not guaranteed. I know my mind-read failed, but I did not get gooed on shapeshift. This means one of two things: I either sent the action in wrong (I presubmitted before night, while running around like a headless chicken trying to pack, so this might be possible, especially if I misunderstood the pm), or it worked and the mod didn't say anything about it.

I also don't give a hang if you trust me. I just thought your play at that point was town-like. You've lost townie points in asking for mass claim though.

On claim order: gah! Objection! Mass claiming bad!

Sierra 534: Stop acting like Haschel is confirmed town. He isn't. It sounds like you're trying to buddy up to him now.

Argh...I see you all have started claiming anyway...Haschel, why did you ask SL to claim first? (I have an idea here, but I'd like to hear why from you)

at SL's claim: ...never even heard of that character...and NK immunity...er...I'm going to have to do a reread on you because I'm not too sure I buy that...

[Mirth]

I now feel like telling Capricious "I told you so" about Batman more likely being a power role. I believe you pending no counterclaim for the roffman kill...though I'm going to have to go back and look at your contribution to the debate about Batman before for laughs.

Oh, pending no counterclaim for the Roffman kill, I'm going to be voting Capricious. The person who guesses why gets a cookie.

[Mirth]

Only at the 3rd post you started claiming you thought SL was the SK. Why only then?

Because Thesp is mafia scum and he realized that SL was SK scum too late and made up a horrible fake claim to try and get rid of the one preventing him and his scumbuddies (i.e. Capricious and Haschel) from winning?

[Mirth]

Capricious, I don't buy your claim. (Though nice bit in there about protecting me, good bit of misdirection for why I'm still alive.) No. Wait. Actually...yes I do. The insane amount of pro-town power roles actually makes your claim make sense. You're not lying, right? Just leaving out the part where you're mafia aligned? Tell me, what is it in your flavor that makes you think I got gooed because of something about you?

And as for high level math, maybe I'm dense or something, but doesn't mafia usually win when they number 50% of the players *and* they're the only antitown roles around? So the 4 scum theory isn't ridiculous. Whats ridiculous is your assumption of balance. 9 townies, at least 6 of whom are power roles vs an SK vs 2 mafia? Well if SL really is NK immune, that might balance out for the SK, but it still seems unbalanced against the mafia.

[Mirth]

I also call bullshit and distancing on Haschel's claim.

I'm going to

vote:Capricious

.

Let me explain why: I think Thesp, Haschel, and Capricious are mafia scum together, and SL is the SK. Sierra is cleared because no one else claimed the Roffman kill and the Roffman kill is not the same as the other kills.

So this leaves us with 5, myself included, unconfirmed. I know that I am not scum, and I believe Sierra's claim due to lack of counterclaim, so pretty much anyone I vote for is probably scum. Since I do believe this is a 3/1 set up, there's a 3 to 1 chance of hitting mafia, which is town needs to do to stop mafia from winning. Now then since half the remaining players are mafia, in order to get a mafia lynch, the person lynched needs to be betrayed by a teammate, yes? While I'd settle for any of the three hanging, I think Capricious has the better chance of being lynched. SL, as the SK, will vote for any of the three, because he needs one of them dead. I will vote for any one of them, because I think they're all scum. Haschel has expressed suspicion of Thesp just now, so that's three. But Sierra and Thesp have indicated willingness to lynch Capricious, so that's a ready made 4 there. So while I'm willing to switch to either Haschel or Thesp, based on the opinions so far indicated, it seems to me that Capricious is the most assured lynch of the three and one of them needs to die.

[Mirth]

I would like clarification on why the manhunter android's kill method is obviously "gone to fight justice", and whether or not the manhunters are also the mafia scum group.

According to the wiki, the Manhunter androids "infiltrated and liberated many planets disguised as living beings and created a "Cult of the Manhunters" that trained others to be their minions." Since the original purpose of the Manhunters was to see justice done, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Manhunter SK killed ZONEACE and Sethaniel when you already know that Rocket Red #7 is in the game.

As for why I don't think the Manhunters are the Mafia scum group: My role doesn't say that I find out if my target is a Manhunter or not; I find out if they are a specific Manhunter android or not.

Since I do believe this is a 3/1 set up, there's a 3 to 1 chance of hitting mafia, which is town needs to do to stop mafia from winning. Now then since half the remaining players are mafia, in order to get a mafia lynch, the person lynched needs to be betrayed by a teammate, yes?

First off, I don't believe that this is a 3/1 setup. Second, if it was a three-mafia crew, they would not need to bus one of their own. They would do everything they could to convince the remaining three players that one of those three was Mafia, because that would end the game. Call WIFOM if you wish, but my actions today have all but assured that SL will not be lynched today. Why, as a Mafia member in a potentially game-winning situation, reduce the pool?

If your theory was correct (it's not) then at this point I would be doing everything in my power to get you mislynched right now, because that way I could win the game without having to worry about getting killed by the SK or vigged by BATNMAN.

Instead...

So, Haschel and Sierra: Thesp or Mirth?

...I'm choosing Thesp.

Vote: Thesp

Except that flatout voting the obvious SK when everyone knows we're in LYLO is pretty much declaring "anyone who is on this wagon is scum, so come join us, gullible townie, and make winning easier." Only way to get any sort of vote is to either a)vote me (the nonconfirmed townie) or b)bus a teammate and hope to get lucky.

All the more reason to get rid of scumdoc Capricious. (Bad move, Thesp, connecting yourself to the only role that can protect you from the SK and the Vig and leaving us a nice trail of breadcrumbs)

And Capricious, you can't say I got lucky. I claimed first. You're the one who jumped up and down and tried to make the connection. I repeat we don't know if night action 2 for me failed. It either worked or I did it wrong, since I was not gooed like night 1.

Speaking of goo, you didnt answer my question. Why did you sat my failure was in your flavor?

[Mirth]

Also, anyone believing Sierra due to lack of counterclaim is absurd. Seriously. Believe him for other reasons if you will, but believing him simply because no one else claimed vig (when it's a popular strategy to claim vig when you really do kill people) is terrible play.

Then tell us, oh wise mistress of Delphi, who killed Roffman.

[Mirth]

I agree with Haschel that poisonous gas is more Joker's style, but I don't think the serving justice thing was cult like...I can't quite place it though. For a while I was toying with the idea that Zoneace abducted himself and then Seth was somehow hidden from outside the game...but that seems really far fetched...

I'm not sure the Joker is even in this game, honestly...maybe its flavour messing with our heads? Maybe its Thesp lying? Just like I don't think you're being honest about Manhunters. Awfully coincidental since I'm the

Martian Manhunter

...

Sierra, you make a good point about Capricious. And I'm still waiting to explain what his power has to do with my failed mindread.

Maybe Thesp isn't stupid (though he apparently didnt bother reading all of Sierras claim), but everyone slips up once in a while...

Also, anyone believing Sierra due to lack of counterclaim is absurd. Seriously. Believe him for other reasons if you will, but believing him simply because no one else claimed vig (when it's a popular strategy to claim vig when you really do kill people) is terrible play.

Then tell us, oh wise mistress of Delphi, who killed Roffman.

Look, occluded non mafia good-folk. Isn't it odd for a town member to not even bother to look up the name of a claimed name, and associate it with the oracle of Delphi, when it has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the latter? Add to that the playful and mischievous tone, as if between two in the know, and you've got mafia scum.

I know Oracle is the former Batgirl, now holding court in a wheelchair and mentoring orphans. Sadly dripping sarcasm fails to transmit via the interwebs.

[Mirth]

I know Oracle is the former Batgirl, now holding court in a wheelchair and mentoring orphans. Sadly dripping sarcasm fails to transmit via the interwebs.

As it were, we don't know whether you knew this beforehand or that you scurried and looked it up, admonishing your own stupidity. After all, 19 minutes is ample time to look up something on the "interwebs", no?

But, the still more interesting fact is that you claimed to have shapeshifted yourself and got no result. Does it make sense for the Martian Manhunter to "shift" his shape to mirror himself? Which of the abilities would you receive after shapeshifting yourself? You know what this is? It's a lame-ass excuse to not be accountable for night actions. See, had you allegedly shapeshifted any other player, you would be at a loss to explain why the supposed role you received differed from the role of person you shapeshifted. If you are town, via this, you could've proved yourself confirmed town. Why pass up an opportunity to confirm yourself? We all know the answer to this one.

Vote: Mirth

~Rolls eyes~ Think whatever you want, Capricious. You just failed to get my initial reference and decided to turn it in to a scumtell. I think you're getting desperate to latch on to anything now.

You also obviously did not read my previous posts. I did not get no result. I got no mod message. Which either means I failed to understand the ability or that it worked. And I did not send in "shapeshift: mirth" but "shapeshift." My PM did not give me reason to believe I could pick who I would shapeshift into. The other two actions specifically mentioned targetting other people. This one didn't. You automatically assumed that it was a "shapeshift:[insert player name here]" contingency, where I could steal the powers of a player in this game. The flavor, however, lead me to believe it was a randomized shapeshift, where I could get some superheroes powers, assuming it worked.

Your argument is also flawed here. Were I scum, I could have claimed I shapeshifted one of the recently dead players, since their abilities were already known to me, and town wouldn't know if I was lying or not. Or I could have claimed that I got gooed again. Both of which would have been a null tell. Even if I did claim I shifted to someone in this game still alive and the powers differed, you still would not be sure if I were lying or if I had hit lying scum. So your argument here does not hold at all. I again repeat, my flavor led me to believe it was a targetless ability, and I acted accordingly.

[Mirth]

No comment on my arguement with Capricious just now?

[Mirth]

Capricious, attacking Mirth for her Delphi comment is pretty stupid, particularly since linguistically the word and the character name are clearly inspired by the Oracle of Delphi.

Mirth is also just a huge nerd with way too much useless knowledge of Greek mythology that she references waaaaaaaay too much in regular conversation.

[Mirth]

EBWOP:

I cannot imagine why anyone but Haschel Cedricson or I should be the lynch for the day. (Obviously, I think I should not be the lynch for the day and it should be HC, but I understand it may not be as evident from the 3rd person). It's evident that either HC or I are mafia (as HC has pointed out), and I cannot imagine a compelling enough case on someone else that one of us should swing.

Replace my name with "Thesp" and I agree completely.

Or you're both mafia, strategically claiming the same role so that one of you gets lynched, the other is "confirmed" by having counterclaimed and thus coasting to endgame. (depending on probability. Since we have 3 killing roles, it is theoretically possible to them to wipe each other out.)

Claim wise, Thesps sounds more plausible, but I don't want to play the "lets outguess the mod" game here. I still think you're both lying and scum with Capricious.

[Mirth]

Hey, Sierra, you said you were going to talk...so I'm waiting for you to talk. Been a while since you said anything.

[Mirth]

Argh. Your post hurts my head since you are obviously making a bunch of assumptions that have no basis. You think there's a joker because Thesp says so. Thesp is not confirmed and could be lying. You think there's a RR#7 because Haschel says so. Haschel is also not confirmed and could be lying. Don't you find it odd that they are the only 2 with names for the bad guys? And they claimed the same role? And they've been echoing each other pretty much all game until now? If you clear both of them automatically, you're left with me, Cap, and SL. By that logic one of us is the SK, and you, knowing full well we're in LYLO decide to vote the one of us most likely to be the SK.

You are being completely blind by giving both Thesp and Haschel a free pass and I urge you to reconsider them both as suspects. If you want to vig me tonight, go right ahead, but you'll just be ensuring a scum win. If you weren't confirmed by Roffman's death, I would be reconsidering my position that you're town right now because your play is blind.

[Mirth]

Occam's Razor would state that both you and Thesp are scum. His claim is obviously full of holes, but you make the same exact claim, that offers the same set of holes. You're just less ambitious than he is, since you say your targetting cleared Thesp as being "not RR#7"

Thesp is trying to get the SK lynched (he probably got that through process of deduction, since Sierra isn't the SK, you and Cap aren't the SK because you're scum with Thesp, and that leaves me and SL, he had to accuse one of us and hope to be right. ) You, however, were trying to keep your partner from getting lynched as the SK. I repeat, I don't particularly care who died tonight, as long as it's either you, Thesp, or Cap. Hopefully Sierra will realize to vig another one of you in the night, and if we got really lucky SL and the last remaining one of you could take each other out.)

[Mirth]

You, however, were trying to keep your partner from getting lynched as the SK.

Wait, so SL is my partner now? I thought I was trying to bus my other partner Thesp in order to prevent my other partner Cap from being lynched.

You obviously did not read my comment thoroughly. "lynched as the SK" Your plan on clearing him completely failed though.

Thesp is trying to get the SK lynched (he probably got that through process of deduction, since Sierra isn't the SK, you and Cap aren't the SK because you're scum with Thesp, and that leaves me and SL, he had to accuse one of us and hope to be right. )

I'm not moving my vote, and Thesp has stated the same. If you're so sure that Thesp or myself are mafia, why not put your money where your mouth is and vote one of us? I highly recommend Thesp, since he's Mafia and has lied about SL being the Joker.

Because I also think Cap is mafia with the two of you (remember I think there are 4 scum), and I really don't think he's lying about the protection thing, so that would make him a prostitute and thus more valuable as a kill than either one of you. If he's dead, he can't prevent Sierra or SL from hitting one of you in the night and I could keep my fingers crossed for a cross-kill.

[Mirth]

Question for you, Sierra. Do you see Batman, The Joker, and Oracle/Batgirl as being a fourth of the characters in a game that is supposed to draw upon the entire Justice League?

Oh! Oh! Can I answer this one?

[Mirth]

Unvote; Vote: Haschel Cedricson

as I believe Thesp's claim more than I believe his. I am still a bit more confident about Cap's scumminess than HC's, though. If it becomes clear that there are sufficient people who agree on this, then I will move my vote back.

With regard to post 610, I agree that it's unlikely that Thesp was breadcrumbing intentionally. I think it was probably unconscious, but it still adds some more weight to the idea that Thesp is town.

Why are you believing the claim that states you are the Joker, if you are claiming not to be the Joker?

Happy birthday, HC, flaw in your logic though. If SL *is* the joker (i don't believe this either) then he can't very well admit it, can he. If Thesp isn't lying about being Oracle (which I think he is), then SL can't lynch him. SL *needs* a mafia kill just as much as the town does. I think he's just hedging is bets voting you now because if he is the SK he's making sure to kill the one whose death gives the least information. So trying to get him to admit whether or not he's the joker is kind of pointless because unless he isn't scum (I think he is scum), he has no reason not to lie.

[Mirth]

Sierra, why are you ignoring th possibility that *both* HC and Thesp are scum and when one dies it pretty much clears the other?

[Mirth]

That theyre both fake claiming so that when one dies and comes up scum the other is left with a "confirmed" claim. (haschel picked claim order, didn't he?)

[Mirth]

Playing "outguess the mod" is a terrible, terrible way to play mafia, yet you insist on falling back to it.

This is what we're all doing here now though.

[Mirth]

~bump~

Capricious, what are you thinking right now?

[Mirth]

If I had to pick, I'd go Mirth over Cap because I don't like the way she's telling everybody that the Thesp/Me thing is some elaborate bussing plan.

Nah, that's because Cap is scum with you guys and you dont want to lose your prostitute protect.

SL, so you think it's Haschel, Cap, and me then?

mod: can we get a Capricious prod please? And maybe one on Thesp too?

At this point, while i would *really* prefer a Capricious lynch, I really have no objection to lynching Haschel if Sierra feels like being the hammer. And as I've said before, no issue lynching Thesp either.

(and for those of you who think my theory is ridiculous, just *look* at their interaction throughout this game. *Look* at it. I've been going on about them probably being scum together before they claimed.)

[Mirth]

The deadness of this game makes me sad. While I would normally love to drag something out to deadline to milk as much information out of it as possible, no one is even trying to play...

So I might as well

unvote:Capricious
vote: Haschel Cedricson

because while I would totally prefer a Capricious lynch since I think he's the most useful of the mafia scum, none of you except SL are considering that too seriously. And I really do think Haschel is scum.

[Mirth]

Thank Darwin.

unvote: Haschel
vote: Capricious

[Mirth]

Soo now we wait for the mod...~twiddles thumbs~

[Mirth]

I told you guys there were 3 scum...and none of you believed me ^____^

I can't believe Sierra didnt NK me like he promised. I totally deserved it for my bullshit claim. (I had to think of something that might show me as not-martian manhunter to any of the investigative roles)

Also, Thesp, why didn't you tell us you were a roleblocker? That would have been useful to know...

[Mirth]

My highlight was when HC declared me to be the SK, and Thesp latched on to it - I had to laugh out loud. I was then stuck with the difficult job of trying to act as though I was trying to persuade people that I wasn't the serial killer. I was sure I was doing a dreadful job (and feel free to tell me if I was), but although suspicion was voiced, it was only Sierra who ever voted for me after that point and only briefly. I can't believe neither HC nor Sierra targeted me last night - I was fully expecting Sierra and Mirth to be in the end game as we would have killed HC had he and Sierra not got choices in first.

HC, you had me guessing right up until the end whether you or Cap was the serial killer.

We were pretty lucky in that the town power roles were eliminated quickly.

Fascinated to know who was targeted by ooba and Cap each night.

Yeah, obviously I had to hit Mafia last night, and Thesp was the only person I was 100%-sure about, since obviously I knew who the real serial killer was. Besides, I thought for sure the Sierra would hit Mirth after the mislynch.

Obviously Ooba didn't investigate me, but I really wish the rest of you had believed he did.

Actually I knew it was Haschel the second Sierra claimed. I just couldn't think of a convincing way of attacking Haschel without getting the wagon turned around on me or deflected to Thesp. And I was thinking about endgame scenerios (I forgot our 51% clause) so I was debating whether it would not be more advantageous to off the doctor so as to make sure that Haschel or Sierra died, or to off Haschel and to hope that the mod didn't have some weird condition where we couldn't win unless Sierra died too. But mostly I couldn't convincingly change wagons.

And I didn't particularly care if Ooba did or didn't investigate you. Just had to make sure no one else believed it.

(Oh, and for the record, I totally lucked out with my fake claim. Thank you, Capricious, I really appreciate you jumping to conclusions that I don't see a basis for in your PM ^_^)

[Mirth]

I

hated

not having safeclaims, or useful information like that at all. I would have liked some flexibility with characters, and I was afraid I'd lose because I'd claim what someone else had by chance, and not because of how I played (which would be a terrible, terrible way to lose).

I guess I assumed that Green Lantern, L-Ron, and Bloodwynd/Martian Manhunter were obvious safe claims, or maybe I'm the only one that reads that far into roles I recieve.

I assumed those were our safeclaims and acted accordingly...