PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Guardian]

Yeah I'll try. People seem to don't agree with me, and I might not be correct, but I'll try and explain what I was/and to some extent still am thinking.

Thesp has refused to explain many of his stances, the link I indicated included.

[Thok]

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

Have you played with Twomz at all before?

I feel like if you were actually serious about your Twomz comment, you might have FOSed or voted him, or at least expressed some discomfort with your Gorrad vote. Instead you threw some trash at Twomz and patiently kept your vote on Gorrad.

Moreover, there are others doing the "not posting content thing" as well; see K-scope for example.

[Guardian]

typo -> *I'd try.

I'd ask why you wanted me to maybe, but unless I thought you had no basis for asking, I'd try, like I said.

[Gorrad]

Why the hell would you claim your partners name?

I told you my logic. I wanted a confirmed innocent to make up for a dead confirmable innocent. I'm sorry, 'kay?

[Fritzler]

If it wasn't a good idea, you wouldn't keep referring to it as "cool"

"Good" play and "cool" play don't always coincide.

Also, it appears MBL was lying. *sigh* I do want to hear from Fritzler why he chose to resurrect the vig rather than the cop.

Stoofer has asked us to not trash talk a certain player, so I can't say anything.

PS Luke Skywalker is awesome.

Fritz brought me back cause I got a lightsaber and I plan to use it in his name. I mean, how often do you get your own pocket Jedi?

This is good posting

ps, to fritz: patience, padawan

Luke Skywalker did not call his apprentices padawan. Are you fake claiming.

A day-vigging "Frankenstein's monster" is unnerving...

@Fritzler: Did your role pm make it clear whether the resurrected player would be brought back as pro-town?

No, but it results in my death at the end of the day, so it would suck as a pro-town role. Plus you guys will see that I am pro-town shortly.

Also the vig was pretty clearly fake. Also, bad play gorrad. I think we should pressure K-scope.

unvote, vote: k-scope

[Fritzler]

Why the hell would you claim your partners name?

I told you my logic. I wanted a confirmed innocent to make up for a dead confirmable innocent. I'm sorry, 'kay?

But now he will also be shortly dead.

[Thok]

typo -> *I'd try.

I'd ask why you wanted me to maybe, but unless I thought you had no basis for asking, I'd try, like I said.

The two situations are fairly similar and you're involved to some extent in both of them. Asking the question gives town a chance to play compare and contrast.

[Thok]

EBWDP: Also, I think you're underestimating how much Thesp has discussed his thoughts about Iammars and Gorrad. If Thesp thought Iammars was scum, given what Thesp said it's not hard to come up with plausible reasons why he thought Gorrad was a partner with Iammars. It's a consistent world-view, but one that depended on what seemed to me to be false hypotheses.

(This is cryptic, but I think Guardian wants to hear what Thesp has to say, not what I think Thesp has to say.)

[Thestatusquo]

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

Have you played with Twomz at all before?

I feel like if you were actually serious about your Twomz comment, you might have FOSed or voted him, or at least expressed some discomfort with your Gorrad vote. Instead you threw some trash at Twomz and patiently kept your vote on Gorrad.

Moreover, there are others doing the "not posting content thing" as well; see K-scope for example.

First of all, answer my questions. They were not rhetorical.

Second, no, I have not. Nor have I ever read any games of his. If you want to point me to a couple that will illustrate whatever kind of point you're going for, I'd be happy to read them.

Third, wait...In order to be suspicious of someone...I can't be potentially happy with a vote I already have? Meaning I cant be suspicious of two people at once? That makes no sense, thok. That would mean several things which are just patently untrue in a game of mafia are true. Let me list them: Distancing doesn't exist, Wifom doesn't exist, there is no such thing as multiple scum groups, we are absolutely certain about the people we find suspicious, and therefore when one of them votes for another person we find suspicious, it means that they cant be scum together. As you can see, you're being more than a little ridiculous.

Lastly, I would say that I was happy with my vote, so there was no reason to move it. I was just tangentially suspicious of twomz as well. My use of FoSes is very sporadic, and unplanned. Sometimes I remember to use them, sometimes I don't. This is representative of the fact that I don't think FoSes are a big deal. When I see somethign suspicious, I post that it is so. I see a FoS as basically the same thing as saying "I find X suspicious" so I don't know why lacking the actual textual FoS is a big deal. The post is furthering the same point.

Also, let me note, the spelling correction of "twomz" is "twosome."

Lawl.

[Mgm]

I'm going to have to agree with Thesp on his point that going for the vigilante over the cop was a bad move. Town can lynch. That's what they do. A cop lets you do that more accurately. However, I don't think complaining about it is going to undo anything.

In any other situation I would have agreed, but DGB wasn't a regular cop. He was a flavor cop, which yields a lot less helpful results.

I also don't agree that MBL should've made his own decision on a vig target. A single player rarely makes better decision than a combined town in this regard.

[Twomz]

TSQ: A quick refresher on how to play a game with me. If you think my posting is scummy, I am town. If I live until the endgame with no real wagon on me, I'm scum. Reference of a game I was scum in: cultural revolution mafia http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3053. Town: Mafiascum Mafia Mafia http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2868.

To be honest, those are always the two games I think of when I think of living on to the end of a game.

unvote

before I forget. My opinion on Gorrad's claim has already been expressed by others (tmi).

PS: The correct spelling of Twomz is MM. >.>

[cicero]

Um... in the name of Mafia 69... Thanks?

[Twomz]

Um... in the name of Mafia 69... Thanks?

That game is a special case cicero. It's ongoing so I can't talk about it right now. But I'll explain it to you in a PM when it's over.

[cicero]

Um... in the name of Mafia 69... Thanks?

That game is a special case cicero. It's ongoing so I can't talk about it right now. But I'll explain it to you in a PM when it's over.

Looking forward to it.

As you were.

[Thok]

First of all, answer my questions. They were not rhetorical.

Half of them were covered by "Have you played a game with Twomz at all?" The rest were covered by my "Shouldn't you express some sort of concern about the fact that the person you find him suspiciously voting is the person you were currently voting?"

Second, no, I have not. Nor have I ever read any games of his. If you want to point me to a couple that will illustrate whatever kind of point you're going for, I'd be happy to read them.

Twomz has done this already.

Third, wait...In order to be suspicious of someone...I can't be potentially happy with a vote I already have? Meaning I cant be suspicious of two people at once? That makes no sense, thok. That would mean several things which are just patently untrue in a game of mafia are true. Let me list them: Distancing doesn't exist, Wifom doesn't exist, there is no such thing as multiple scum groups, we are absolutely certain about the people we find suspicious, and therefore when one of them votes for another person we find suspicious, it means that they cant be scum together. As you can see, you're being more than a little ridiculous.

I would believe this if you actually made any sort of indication that you are concerned about multiple scum groups, WIFOM, or distancing. Making a bunch of post-facto generic theory comments doesn't excuse you behavior at the time.

Natural reactions for most people to seeing scummy behavior is
1. To press it further at the expense of previous suspicions because you feel this is a better lead.
2. Let it go on the back burner and keep up with your current suspicions.
You did neither. This strikes me as very weird.

Lastly, I would say that I was happy with my vote, so there was no reason to move it. I was just tangentially suspicious of twomz as well. My use of FoSes is very sporadic, and unplanned. Sometimes I remember to use them, sometimes I don't. This is representative of the fact that I don't think FoSes are a big deal. When I see somethign suspicious, I post that it is so. I see a FoS as basically the same thing as saying "I find X suspicious" so I don't know why lacking the actual textual FoS is a big deal. The post is furthering the same point.

This seems like a lot of posting to not actually say much. You seem to think that by throwing lots of text at my comments will swallow my arguments and make them irrelevant.
------------------

But fine, let's do analysis of what you've done. Throwing out posts that I feel don't actually add anything

1. Jumped on the stupid Iammars wagon, and given an FOS on Jordan that you apparently have had no desire to follow up on, because the only time you've mentioned it again is as a defense for why you weren't just following people.

2. A fairly reasonable comment about Kison. Actually, on a reread Kison seems a bit scummy for his push on Gorrad (and if Iammars turns up scum then Kison's a decent bet for an Iammars partner [and likely isn't scum with TSQ], as he was consistently trying to move people from Iammars to Gorrad when there was pressure on both.)

FOS Kison

.

3. Made a completely irrelevant and wrong comment about Space Monkeys . (Not scummy, but included for completeness.)

4. A masssive overreaction and twisting of my attack on you. This feels like you trying to throw out text on the theory that if you have more text than me people will think you win the argument.

5. Using Thesp as an excuse to jump onto Gorrad (while using an argument that I don't believe was what Thesp was looking at when he he was pushing Gorrad, and then claiming it was what Thesp was getting at.) Moreover, as I pointed out, the argument you used to go after Gorrad should also have lead to you thinking about Thesp's actions, and you didn't seem to do that at all.

6. You start doing the whole "I am bandwagoning to pressure people, not to lynch them" thing and the whole "I can't be following other people's leads if the wagon is only halfway to lynch" which just doesn't make sense.

7. A fairly wishy-washy comment in post 248 about the possibility of Thesp-Thok. Paraphrased it goes "Well, I'll suggest they are scum together without a justification, but I'll also deny looking for partners so Guardian gets blamed for this rather than me in case one of them gets lynched and comes up town."

8. Random DGB nonsense. (Included for completeness)

9. FOS of Guardian, followed by what appears to be a reasonable comment about him and Flameaxe. This is later retracted when you claim it's not relevant.

10. A small theory comment of the form "I'm trying to get reactions and that's what protown players do." Plus more comments of the form "I'm wagonning, not trying to lynch," which feel like theory BS to try and defend yourself with. Basically saying you're only trying to pressure somebody gives you a backdoor way to get off a wagon without be accused of trying to lynch a protown player.

11. Stuff with Twomz I've just discussed.

[MrBuddyLee]

The fake vig of Gorrad was to move the day along. He had a nice huge wagon and the #2 target wasn't going to get lynched over Gorrad. I was hoping Gorrad was scum and would give a Bah Go Ninjas post or some such, or that an incompetent scumpartner would panic in the face of the vig and say that they mistrusted Gorrad all along. I also wanted to see who was reticent about running up Thesp next.

Oh well, at least we've gotten some reactions. I actually don't get to vig this afternoon. I'll read the thread carefully this afternoon to find the bastards who killed me.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Thesp: 4 (Guardian, hasdgfas, Gorrad, Mgm)
Gorrad: 2 (Flameaxe, The Fonz)
Twomz: 2 (KaleiÐoscøpe, Thestatusquo)
Iammars: 2 (Sir Tornado, mikeburnfire)
cicero: 2 (Iammars, UltimaAvalon)
Skruffs: 1 (Samruc)
UltimaAvalon: 1 (JordanA24)
Sir Tornado: 1 (cicero)
Thestatusquo: 1 (Thok)
Guardian: 1 (Erg0)
KaleiÐoscøpe: 1 (Fritzler)

Not voting: 7 (Skruffs, Rosso Carne, MrBuddyLee, Thesp, Claus, Kison, Twomz)

13 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~13th February.

Under Rule [05], nobody would be lynched at deadline.

[Thesp]

now especially, I think Thesp owes the town to explain this BS Gorrad - Mars link he claimed to see so clearly earlier

If it's bothering you that much...

I alluded to this earlier, here:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning. FoS: Iammars. Iammars, thoughts?

Admits it's weak reasoning, but FOSes him anyway, I can see this as going along with the general crowd, and maybe to put more pressure on Mars. But he already has 6 votes, I want to hear from him again before maybe voting him.

I was thinking something similar - this looks like a scum link here, especially when Gorrad follows it up with...

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

We can lynch Gorrad tomorrow. Iammars is for today.

He throws on an FOS that he doesn't agree with, and he claims he'd vote, but wants to give Iammars a chance to explain himself. Scum love to get the chance to "explain themselves", and love just as much to give their buddies a chance to do it. (What Gorrad implied here is that the wagon is reasonable and worth being a part of, but there is some explanation of the comment (beyond what I can imagine) that would account for the suspicion on him and warrant the wagon moving off of him.) To me, it made a lot of sense for a Gorrad-Iammars pair.

I also don't always think it's wise to dileneate to the scum how they are interacting with each other that tells us who they are - they tend to obfuscate it after that.

I like the votes on Kaleidoscope and on Sir Tornado. I may switch to one of them shortly - let me do some minor review in the next day or so.

[Thestatusquo]

I do like votes on kscope myself, as well. I would caution however that SirT always seems to play this way on day one. Kscope as well, even, so never mind I don't know how I actually feel about that.

Twomz, the only person I have ever actually seen that meta work on was creampuffeater.

[Kison]

Hi!

fairly reasonable comment about Kison. Actually, on a reread Kison seems a bit scummy for his push on Gorrad (and if Iammars turns up scum then Kison's a decent bet for an Iammars partner [and likely isn't scum with TSQ], as he was consistently trying to move people from Iammars to Gorrad when there was pressure on both.)

I'm lookin at the three(3) posts where I mention Gorrad prior to the MrBuddyLee fiasco and am not seeing how I pressured people to move from Iammars to Gorrad.

Unvote
Vote: cicero

Reason #1

mass-claiming is indeed NOT the pro-town thing to do.

Are you trying to say that a mass claim would have been a GOOD route for us to take today?

Well, I like the SirT and Kalei pressure, but again on a reread...

unvote

holy fucking jesus people.

reread tonight if the world doenst end first.

Vote : Rosso Carne

This was 4 days ago. I looked out the window and the apocalypse didn't seem to reach my home. Am I the lone survivor or did you break your promise?

[Kison]

For the love of god, this is not a good quoting week for me...

My first quote in the above post should be from Thok :

fairly reasonable comment about Kison. Actually, on a reread Kison seems a bit scummy for his push on Gorrad (and if Iammars turns up scum then Kison's a decent bet for an Iammars partner [and likely isn't scum with TSQ], as he was consistently trying to move people from Iammars to Gorrad when there was pressure on both.)

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

Have you played with Twomz at all before?

I feel like if you were actually serious about your Twomz comment, you might have FOSed or voted him, or at least expressed some discomfort with your Gorrad vote. Instead you threw some trash at Twomz and patiently kept your vote on Gorrad.

Moreover, there are others doing the "not posting content thing" as well; see K-scope for example.

Have you played with

Twomz

Kscope at all before?

Oh, figured.

[cicero]

Im considering changing me meta on day ones to refusing to speak as well. I like how there are no consequences but actual play threatens one with a wagon. Seems fair.

[Thesp]

Im considering changing me meta on day ones to refusing to speak as well. I like how there are no consequences but actual play threatens one with a wagon. Seems fair.

I really, really like you.

[cicero]

Im considering changing me meta on day ones to refusing to speak as well. I like how there are no consequences but actual play threatens one with a wagon. Seems fair.

I really, really like you.

Don't tell Flameaxe.