Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Rels]

rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

What townreads did you find "easy-mode" ?

[Rels]

I think it's more likely he's scum than Rels. Look at how Hawk reacted when I replaced in, wrote a huge reads list and posted a case on Hap. He said it was a good one, unvoted KidAmn, and voted RELS. Why would he vote his partner when a case was made against a townie?

Do you remember what was the votecount at that time?

Thanks for that though Cass.
So at post 888 we are looking at:

[L-4] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Kop - Aubrey, doomfeathers
[L-5] Rels - Kop, Hawk
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

Mm interested in votecounts.
But later:

If yes, why are you ignoring that post where Hawk said "mm too many people wants to vote Hapa it's suspicious" just after voting me ?

Because the post doesn't mean anything in the scenario i find most likely. I have literally just argued about it.

WELL THEN GO CHECK IT BEFORE MAKING CALLS

If yes, why are you saying Hawk jumped off my wagon to Aubrey's when my wagon was starting to have a lot of people ?

Clarify please, i don't understand the question.

You said:

OOO are you working on the idea that I'm scum; Hawk is my partner; and he voted me over Hapa ?

Yeah why not? You weren't gonna get lynched anyways and when your wagon gained some traction he was quite happy to put his vote elsewhere. I don't see the problem in how his voting cannot make you mafia.

Which is false, when he switched to Aubrey I only had 2 votes left on me.

The post doesn't mean anything. If you do think it means something then fucking say what instead of calling my thought process (you apparently have no idea about) scummy.

What is false there? Having votes != thread sentiment. Thread sentiment suggests that Hawk started deflecting from lynching you (which he never really did try in the first place tbh) when people got somewhat interested in it. The number of votes you were having when he unvoted is irrelevant.

Mm vote counts are irrelevant, you need context actually to determine that.

[Rels]

I don't care Rels, if you wanna perceive/put it that way then you do. But i literally don't care because i am not doing that.
Lynch me then, i dare you!

Sure. You didn't hint at me being mafia at aaaaaaalll before that post.
Challenge accepted

[cassielle]

actually I'll stop with the irony. Cass, you're not very good at mafia. At least this game, maybe in other games you played better IDK. You're almost lock town in my POV so I'm not talking about alignment there. But since you started playing I've seen you post lots of things that didn't make any sense.
Nothing you've said makes me scum. Let's see.

Because I don't know what "softballing" means doesn't mean shit.

You claim that I have not read the thread 'cause I'm missrepresenting something KidDamn did - by all means prove it.

You're saying that I was calm when being scumread and now I'm acting excited while being scumread so there is a difference. First, so what ? Second, I was not excited 'cause I was scumread. Actually nobody was pushing me when I "got excited", since you hadn't revealed your scumread yet. But I shouldn't have to even say that, 'cause the first counter argument was pretty good : so what ?

And finally this is the funniest thing: "when the thread sentiment turns against him d1, when hawk is active and helping, he goes silent running mode and ignores scumreads on him"
Tghen you quote the part in question: "so it starts here: viewtopic.php?p=8925313#p8925313 1029. and it gets interesting here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p8925647 1062"
Well. What's really funny in your link is that you're pointing to the firs titme in the thread someone started to scumread Hawk. Out of nowhere. While being "scumread myself and ignoring it", as you're saying. Don't know how that makes sense in your world.

Voilà. Get good mate.

i "revealed" my scumread of you on d1 and never retracted it since so that parts flat out wrong

i claimed that /multiple/ things show you havent been paying attention to the thread -- and ftr, while not paying attention isn't instascum, its scum-indicative (town wants to be up to date on the gamestate, scum already knows everything that town is trying to learn)
my scumread of you isnt based on you not reading, that simply strengthens it. assuming its the entire basis of my scumread on you is ridiculous and false

and your rebuttal to the scumread personality thing is 1: not a very good one since it doesnt by any means cancel out what i said, 2: irrelevant to my scumread of you because it was more an interesting thing i noticed that i wanted people to talk about (because the way people respond to that can be strongly alignment indicative) than a reason to scumread you

so let's see what we have here! we got:

Spoiler: one (1) blatant falsehood

my scumread of you was never secret

Spoiler: one (1) misinterpretational strawman

i said something different than what youre replying to and your interpretation of what i didnt say is incorrect besides

Spoiler: one (1) assumption of my intent

i even stated that i would leave people to conclude what they would about it and didnt respond to ooo's rebuttal because i thought it was a fair point, but i still wanted people to talk about it

and

Spoiler: one (1) casting doubt on my ability to play

aka ad hominem attack, which i have gone over my opinion of already in great detail

this recipe sucks, dinner is cancelled

[cassielle]

rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

What townreads did you find "easy-mode" ?

hapa

he barely fought back just sort of waved wildly in some other direction and youre like "pretty sure hapa is town too" after scumreading him for "blatant omgus" just a post or two beforehand (which is a damned weak reason to scumread someone btw)

[Rels]

lol cass

[Rels]

rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

What townreads did you find "easy-mode" ?

hapa

he barely fought back just sort of waved wildly in some other direction and youre like "pretty sure hapa is town too" after scumreading him for "blatant omgus" just a post or two beforehand (which is a damned weak reason to scumread someone btw)

so it's still valid even though I've gone back on it and are now scumreading it for several reasons ?

[BlackVoid]

Here are the relevant VCs in how Hawk treats the Hap wagon. You'll see full context here. Basically, he helped build a Kop counterwagon to Hap. Then as monentum switched to KidAmn, he voted there too. Finally as the KidAmn wagon dismantled and people started talking about Hap/Rels as scum, he voted Rels.

Votecount 1.8

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, havingfitz, Creature
[L-3] Kop - doomfeathers, Rels, Hawk, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] cassielle - hapahauli

Not voting: Kop, cassielle

For the first one, if you click on the links, you'll see that he voted Kop right after Creature voted Hap so he was building a counter-wagon. He did it with terrible reasoning: that Kop's reaction to Doom was good but that Kop didn't actually vote Doom.

Votecount 1.10

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-4] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk
[L-5] Kop - doomfeathers, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, cassielle

Then he helps build a KidAmn wagon as a counter to Hap. He wasn't even scumreading KidAmn. If you look at 786, he just waffles around on KidAmn and throws a bunch of shade on Rels and ties him to Hap claiming that Rels is scum regardless of what Hap's alignment was. He had no real reason to vote KidAmn but ties it with Hap wagon anyways. Once KidAmn ATEs and makes Hawk second-guess in 789, he doesn't unvote.

Votecount as of 859 where I vote Hap

[L-3] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers,
[L-3] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, outoforder, cassielle

So, I made a case and voted Hap while also having Rels as a null-read. In 861, Hawk unvotes but doesn't put a vote down on anyone. In 862, Cass says that she's scumreading Rels and thinks that Kop is bad town. In 866, doomfeathers switches his vote to Kop dismantling the KidAmn wagon. In 887, Kop lays out a case on Rels. In 888, Hawk follows with a vote on Rels while calling Hap scum.

Compare the way Hawk is putting down his votes with the way he talks about Hap, almost like he knows Hap will flip scum. There are several points where he says that Hap is almost definitely scum.

[cassielle]

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

talk to me

Cassy is likely town. Hapa might be town

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

Yes, my reads evolve with new information. Grass is green. Sky is blue.

Frederick was an inactive lurker for most of the game. I didn't think anything he did was alignment indicative. A lynchbaity type player who was going to be replaced by a more active player later on.

Cassy was the "more active" player who replaced in, and is also probably mafia based on her entrance.

Here are the relevant VCs in how Hawk treats the Hap wagon. You'll see full context here. Basically, he helped build a Kop counterwagon to Hap. Then as monentum switched to KidAmn, he voted there too. Finally as the KidAmn wagon dismantled and people started talking about Hap/Rels as scum, he voted Rels.

Votecount 1.8

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, havingfitz, Creature
[L-3] Kop - doomfeathers, Rels, Hawk, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] cassielle - hapahauli

Not voting: Kop, cassielle

For the first one, if you click on the links, you'll see that he voted Kop right after Creature voted Hap so he was building a counter-wagon. He did it with terrible reasoning: that Kop's reaction to Doom was good but that Kop didn't actually vote Doom.

Votecount 1.10

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-4] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk
[L-5] Kop - doomfeathers, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, cassielle

Then he helps build a KidAmn wagon as a counter to Hap. He wasn't even scumreading KidAmn. If you look at 786, he just waffles around on KidAmn and throws a bunch of shade on Rels and ties him to Hap claiming that Rels is scum regardless of what Hap's alignment was. He had no real reason to vote KidAmn but ties it with Hap wagon anyways. Once KidAmn ATEs and makes Hawk second-guess in 789, he doesn't unvote.

Votecount as of 859 where I vote Hap

[L-3] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers,
[L-3] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, outoforder, cassielle

So, I made a case and voted Hap while also having Rels as a null-read. In 861, Hawk unvotes but doesn't put a vote down on anyone. In 862, Cass says that she's scumreading Rels and thinks that Kop is bad town. In 866, doomfeathers switches his vote to Kop dismantling the KidAmn wagon. In 887, Kop lays out a case on Rels. In 888, Hawk follows with a vote on Rels while calling Hap scum.

Compare the way Hawk is putting down his votes with the way he talks about Hap, almost like he knows Hap will flip scum. There are several points where he says that Hap is almost definitely scum.

whats your take on the chances of hawk intentionally trying to tie himself to town!hapa

ive seen scum not at risk of a lynch do that from d1 just in case

that is what i mostly found compelling about ooo's argument ftr

[cassielle]

hjoly shit what happend there, so many quotes

[cassielle]

ahhh right i was working on responding to rels in more detail but decided to let it lie for awhile and see where his responses went

stupid multiquote feature

[BlackVoid]

By "intentionally tying himself to Hap," if you mean making Hap look guilty in case he, Hawk flips, I don't see why he would try to make a doomed townie look guilty just in case he somehow flips before that townie. Remember it looked like Hap was the lynch for the day, not Hawk until the last seven hours or so till deadline.

If you are saying he's trying to get towncred from a Hap townflip, I'd argue that he would actually call Hap town while pushing counterwagons. He wouldn't say he was very confident in a Hap scumflip while subtly laying down his votes elsewhere and working against the lynch. This is also Hawk's first game as scum so I don't expect an insane level of manipulation.

[Rels]

whats your take on the chances of hawk intentionally trying to tie himself to town!hapa

ive seen scum not at risk of a lynch do that from d1 just in case

that is what i mostly found compelling about ooo's argument ftr

What do you mean ? Nobody voted Hawk before the last day so how did he try to tie himself exactly ?

[cassielle]

By "intentionally tying himself to Hap," if you mean making Hap look guilty in case he, Hawk flips, I don't see why he would try to make a doomed townie look guilty just in case he somehow flips before that townie. Remember it looked like Hap was the lynch for the day, not Hawk until the last seven hours or so till deadline.

If you are saying he's trying to get towncred from a Hap townflip, I'd argue that he would actually call Hap town while pushing counterwagons. He wouldn't say he was very confident in a Hap scumflip while subtly laying down his votes elsewhere and working against the lynch.

This is also Hawk's first game as scum

so I don't expect an insane level of manipulation.

didnt know that

ok cool your interp fits

[Rels]

oh ok you mean tie as in make it seem like they're scum buddies

[BlackVoid]

He also seemed pretty excited once I made the case against Aubrey. I think it's because he was resigned to his buddy Hap being the lynch and suddenly this new opportunity for a mislynch occurred. He was mostly townreading Aubrey so there's no reason for him to jump through hoops to change that read to a scumread (and potentially get caught) as opposed to just say that Aubrey was town and that he would stick with Hap. He could always let me tunnel Aubrey the next day since I said Aubrey was scum if Hap was town. I think both Hap AND Hawk saw an opportunity to get Aubrey lynched at that point. Hawk's end-of-day vote was unconvincing to me and it didn't look like he changed his scumread on Aubrey at all. That's weird because when I was pushing Hawk, I was convinced Aubrey was town that Hawk was opportunistically wagoning. I don't think Hap could have actually thought Aubrey and Hawk were partnered. Hap's jump on Aubrey towards the end of day wasn't particularly compelling either.

[BlackVoid]

*That was a typo. I meant HAP's end-of-day vote was unconvincing to me and it didn't look like he changed his scumread on Aubrey at all. I'm talking about 1371.

[havingfitz]

RL in the way today....still out and about now. I'll try to content tomorrow latest.

[Rels]

RL in the way today....still out and about now. I'll try to content tomorrow latest.

So ... ASAP ? ^^

[KidAmn]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

[Rels]

BV your case is pretty awesome.

Compare the way Hawk is putting down his votes with the way he talks about Hap, almost like he knows Hap will flip scum. There are several points where he says that Hap is almost definitely scum.

This is the most important thing.

[cassielle]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

i never ever said deliberately misinterpreted

[Rels]

Rereading Hapa's filter everything I've said yesterday still stand:

yeah I wanna lynch Hapa. So many defense posts where he only came back to defend himself. Such a bad vote on Hawk when he was forced to. There is also the thing where he was logged in to the website when 1 day before the deadline but didn't post.

Well, he was prodded in this game at 9AM PST. At 9:45 or so, he posted in a different game but not here. If you look at his "search user posts." So, obviously he was online if he made any post at all.

Well he also was online until 30 minutes apparently:
"Last visited:Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:10 am"
For the comparaison it's 1:44 AM right now here

And he didn't believe in any lynch at all. Like, KidDamn was his main scumread, but he didn't really care about it. There is:
His case on him
Then he talks about him quite a lot until his revote on him:

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

VOTE: KidDamn

And after that it's over. He didn't fight for his lynch at all.

VOTE: Hapahauli

To add to the weak KidDamn read, there is a point where Hapa gets pushed by Cass, and reacts strongly to it, culminating to the point where he votes Cass.

It starts with this post. The vote is there.

It makes little sense. Like, he made a strong case against KidDamn; he's believing it very strongly (even saying stuff like "I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn." in his Fitz case just below his KidDamn case); KidDamn reacted to it pretty poorly then left the thread; then he's being attacked by Cass - in his POV for reasons that are pretty bad.
It SHOULD mean to him that KidDamn is even more likely to be scum; it's more likely that he gets attacked for no reason if he's pushing Cass' partner than if his main scumread is a mislynch. KidDamn and Cass should make sense as a team there. Like me actually yesterday; I found out that OOO was super likely to be scum, and that strengthened my scumread on Hapa because they make sense as a team.

But he doesn't do that. He gives in to the OMGUS and votes Cass and starts fighting her. Hapa was missing the global view there. He wasn't looking for a team. If he was, he would have not unvoted KidDamn there. And let me remind you that Hapa is a fucking great town player.

+ the other things I've already said about him not pushing his main scumread.

[KidAmn]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

i never ever said deliberately misinterpreted

Fair point - looking back you said he was either skimreading or cherrypicking, which is where I picked that up from. The amended question still stands with regards to where Rels has misrepresented, intent notwithstanding.

[Rels]

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something.

This is early D2. This is how OOO says he's gonna assess the situation about Hapa. And it makes sense. This is the thing to do. If Hapa lynch was accepted by everybody, then it's an indicator of Hapa being town.

Then it's said that the flipped scum actually was one of the dude NOT voting for Hapa but voting for every counter wagon available. So giving his reasonning above it should point at Hapa being scum more than Hapa being town. But that's not what happens. Actually the opposite happens; suddenly in OOO POV it makes more sense that Hawk never voted Hapa while scumreading him because he knew Hapa was town.
This lapse of logic doesn't make sense. Especially from OOO who is the most logical player I know of. This is OOO knowing that if his partner Hapa is lynched he has a very, very big chance of losing because of the setup; so he has to try SOMETHING to save his teammate.