Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Lil Uzi Vert]

UNVOTE: [/v]

Gerry's still scum but his lynch probably won't go through today.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

UNVOTE:

Gerry's still scum but his lynch probably won't go through today.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

VOTE: Wheme

[havingfitz]

Hi all. I'll catch up as much as I can today but I will be offline ~all of tomorrow and a good bit of Sunday. I'll try to get some thoughts in before weekend/RL interferes.

[Hawk]

Also I don't see associative things between me and Lowell that AJ was pointing out... like maybe we were on similar wagon's around similar times but that's all?

So the fact that you two both decided to beat a dead sheep was a part of it. The second is that Lowell's posture after I stated this was to say you're scummy but not as scummy as Sheep (as seen by his vote and only FOS on you). Last, you do have a tendency to defend him subtly, specifically in your case vs sheep when you talk about cooperation and shit. And of course you being really into Wheme being town hasn't been that helpful in dissuading my feelings on this. Lowell won't even give a read on Wheme.

Definitely can't say that I understand how committal you are on Lowell. To me, he's pretty cut and dry.

VOTE: Lowell

I will admit though I'm more confident on him being scum. He's blatantly just going for big wagons.

Also, Terata's actions recently are suspect. He actually has Gerry down twice in his reads, null and weak town. He's reading Lowell as town... On the same level of his read on me which is unequivocally garbage. And his Chaos read being scum leans is definitely FOTM rather than actual belief. My belief is he's trying to gauge some reads off of other people and is a bit behind on trends.

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

P-edit: Yeah I don't know if terata is out of his league vs ECMitchell or that's just strong town mitchell but Terata's definitely not winning this argument.

Okay this makes a lot more sense to me. Looking at the ISO only he didn't seem to bad but you're right if I just go through the actual thread he's pretty oppurtunistic. And while I really dislike Sheep's playstyle and his earlier play that wagon seems to be going nowhere so I can agree more with this.

Terata still seems town to me even if a bit suspect but I'll reserve actual judgment for later. His argument with ECM is pretty weak. Also ECM responded very well to that pressure town points there.

Gerry pings me a lot same with Penguin because of how little they've posted. Welcome back LUV and welcome fitz.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Re: Hawk's wall on me.

Complains that I don't sound at all times like I'm considering Frogger might be town.
Complains that, when i call Frogger town, I express distaste and issues with Frogger applying a case on me based off something that didn't happen.
Hangs a hat on how he's attacking me for attacking him.
Complains that I'm not on Chaos, even though I specifically said I was on the Hawk wagon because it was bigger.

tl:dr - I don't find his arguments town indicative.

I don't see the issue here. Bad arguments doesn't make someone scum.

Are you trying to say that his arguments are so bad and contrived that they couldn't possibly be coming from town?

Pretty much exactly that - I'm well aware that bad arguments don't prove scum, but there is a difference between bad arguments I think the person believes and bad arguments that I don't.

His rebuttal is a bunch of empty blah, and despite a giant wall of this blah that he seems to want people to believe he buys, he doesn't care that I pooh-pooh it, he is softly shopping around for options elsewhere, and he isn't even engaging me anymore. He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

[ChaosOmega]

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

I have a reason and I've saved it to a draft so that I can reply later.

I know you've moved off of EC, but I still want to see this.

------

Also, just a note that Wheme decided to say hi to a new player instead of responding to or even acknowledging my 641.

[Hawk]

Re: Hawk's wall on me.

Complains that I don't sound at all times like I'm considering Frogger might be town.
Complains that, when i call Frogger town, I express distaste and issues with Frogger applying a case on me based off something that didn't happen.
Hangs a hat on how he's attacking me for attacking him.
Complains that I'm not on Chaos, even though I specifically said I was on the Hawk wagon because it was bigger.

tl:dr - I don't find his arguments town indicative.

I don't see the issue here. Bad arguments doesn't make someone scum.

Are you trying to say that his arguments are so bad and contrived that they couldn't possibly be coming from town?

Pretty much exactly that - I'm well aware that bad arguments don't prove scum, but there is a difference between bad arguments I think the person believes and bad arguments that I don't.

His rebuttal is a bunch of empty blah, and despite a giant wall of this blah that he seems to want people to believe he buys, he doesn't care that I pooh-pooh it, he is softly shopping around for options elsewhere, and he isn't even engaging me anymore. He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

If you actually read my walls you'd realize most of my case against you not including what Fro99er put out is because your playstyle is bad and you make ridiculous amounts of assumptions and even if Fro99er misunderstood you I didn't. You made a statement assuming that Lowell would never sheep a vote and many other assumptions. I even admit in my giant wall of text that You are either scum or really bad town. Like your logic is bad. Could you be town sure. Do I think so? naaahhh not really.

Also when I flip green your adament opinion that I'm scum isn't going to look too good

[havingfitz]

or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

WHAT?

Did you ever get a reply to this post?

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE:

[Hawk]

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?

[ChaosOmega]

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?

I mean, I guess I don't know why you're asking this. If you don't scumread him, then don't vote to lynch him? If you're curious as to why you should vote Wheme, peruse my ISO, it's not very long. I believe the claim from an ability standpoint, just not an alignment one.

[Hawk]

Okay I get that, I'm saying I understand and don't have a great read on Wheme. But from my POV I'm inclined to believe it's a town Aligned claim and not a scum claiming with a town alignment. I just wanted maybe something more than what you had said or maybe what your thoughts are if Wheme does flip green?


Also post game remind me to come back here because I'm very new to Normals and non open setups so I want some clarification later about my own play and logic here.

[Lowell]

VOTE: Wheme

So did you see wheme's claim? Or is this your way of saying you don't believe it?

[Lowell]

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?

I mean, I guess I don't know why you're asking this. If you don't scumread him, then don't vote to lynch him? If you're curious as to why you should vote Wheme, peruse my ISO, it's not very long. I believe the claim from an ability standpoint, just not an alignment one.

Chaos earns some townpoints for this if Wheme is town, and some scumpoints if Wheme is scum. And vice versa. This is clear distancing on a fakeclaim, but good aggression that I doubt scum would do if the claim is true.

[Fro99er]

Lowell what are you even talking about? You think chaos has been bussing wheme all day, when I made a huge wall post about how I thought chaos was manipulating wheme.

No.

Just no. I think Chaos and Wheme are either both town, or one is town one is scum. There is ZERO chance both are scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Re: Hawk's wall on me.

Complains that I don't sound at all times like I'm considering Frogger might be town.
Complains that, when i call Frogger town, I express distaste and issues with Frogger applying a case on me based off something that didn't happen.
Hangs a hat on how he's attacking me for attacking him.
Complains that I'm not on Chaos, even though I specifically said I was on the Hawk wagon because it was bigger.

tl:dr - I don't find his arguments town indicative.

I don't see the issue here. Bad arguments doesn't make someone scum.

Are you trying to say that his arguments are so bad and contrived that they couldn't possibly be coming from town?

Pretty much exactly that - I'm well aware that bad arguments don't prove scum, but there is a difference between bad arguments I think the person believes and bad arguments that I don't.

His rebuttal is a bunch of empty blah, and despite a giant wall of this blah that he seems to want people to believe he buys, he doesn't care that I pooh-pooh it, he is softly shopping around for options elsewhere, and he isn't even engaging me anymore. He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

If you actually read my walls you'd realize most of my case against you not including what Fro99er put out is because your playstyle is bad and you make ridiculous amounts of assumptions and even if Fro99er misunderstood you I didn't. You made a statement assuming that Lowell would never sheep a vote and many other assumptions. I even admit in my giant wall of text that You are either scum or really bad town. Like your logic is bad. Could you be town sure. Do I think so? naaahhh not really.

Also when I flip green your adament opinion that I'm scum isn't going to look too good

I will agree that your "case" against me is easily read as one giant vague playstyle attack that doesn't show scum intent.
You say 'assumption' I say 'stating an opinion' - either way neither is scummy and it's silly to treat it as such.

If you flip red though, I'll look so amazing it will be wonderful. Let's gamble.

[Fro99er]

Sheep -- this frog wants your thoughts on Penguin?

[Fro99er]

Sheep -- this frog wants your thoughts on Penguin?

Forget the hawk for a moment. Just a moment. We have other animals to talk about.

[Hawk]

Frogs, Hawk's, Sheep, Penguins this game is a menagerie.

It can be indicative of scum Sheep just like you think me consistently attacking you because I don't like your logic and your assumptions about players is scummy -_-;;

Frog whats your opinion on Terata and ECM's argument a few pages back?

[Cooperative Sheep]

You have a valid point that he is a lurker.
I find his defense of the hypocrisy angle leveled against him to make sense (you actually used that as a scumtell when I pointed out a 'you're doing what I'm doing' type defense earlier, so I'm curious why this one sells you so much).
That's about it, right? I was letting it simmer - there's not much to chew there yet as it's functionally one lurker attacking another lurker, and then being attacked for being a lurker himself - the case is a lurker case either way you slice it, so you're either going to wagon on that for more info if ou don't have better reads, or you're going to be annoyed that it's distracting from a wagon you like better, or you're going to let it go and see what happens.

I'm the second two.

[Cooperative Sheep]

It can be indicative of scum Sheep just like you think me consistently attacking you because I don't like your logic and your assumptions about players is scummy -_-;;

At least Frog acted like he believed I didn't make logical sense.
Your attack is "oooh, an *assumption*" as though that's remotely something town don't do - then you claim I lack logic, with something like that being your evidence...which, y'know, shows no lack of logic on my end, and even if it *did* is still a playstyle complaint, unless you're claiming I'm normally very logical, but am intentionally being illogical because I'm scum.

Meanwhile, you remain scum, pushing an empty case emptily, and trying to sell around for another now that you're being left alone to push this one.

[Fro99er]

You have a valid point that he is a lurker.
I find his defense of the hypocrisy angle leveled against him to make sense (you actually used that as a scumtell when I pointed out a 'you're doing what I'm doing' type defense earlier, so I'm curious why this one sells you so much).
That's about it, right? I was letting it simmer - there's not much to chew there yet as it's functionally one lurker attacking another lurker, and then being attacked for being a lurker himself - the case is a lurker case either way you slice it, so you're either going to wagon on that for more info if ou don't have better reads, or you're going to be annoyed that it's distracting from a wagon you like better, or you're going to let it go and see what happens.

I'm the second two.

It's not just about a guy lurking talking about a lurker.

[Fro99er]

Sheep,

read the first part of 659 up until the first comma and then read 660

[Fro99er]

Frog whats your opinion on Terata and ECM's argument a few pages back?

ECM scumreading terata is bad.