Mini 1877: Spyro the Dragon (Game Over)

[massive]

Oh yeah, six pages, sure why not.

[massive]

Theres also the elephan in the room that Rc is a good player and believing anyone can have a correct read on his alignement by the first post in rvs is just not happening
-CK

Cloud are you ... are you AFRAID of RC or something?

Holy cats did Frozen Angel just call herself "kinda famous"? Kinda famous for throwing LYLOs maybe amirite?

Holy cats first Not_Mafia post PURE TERROR IN MY HEART

And Cakez and Flubber and Leonshade man this is like all my frands

[massive]

Rc starts a lot of games accusing someone to be their scum partner to find a scum like you - attacking back

pedit : Are you saying RC accusing their hydra partner as a joke and game starting with selfvote in RVS is scummy That much that you want Meta to reconsider?

Let’s play spot the contradiction. Ten points to whoever buzzes in first.

OOH OOH OOH ME ME ME!

How can it be a legit way to try and catch a scum attacking back AND be a joke?

[massive]

I don't get my ten points, do I.

[massive]

I don't get my ten points, do I.

Nope sorry. Frozen already beat you to it. Better luck next time.

What do you think of Raging Spammers?

44 doesn't read like whiteknighting, it reads like THE FEAR. I don't know necessarily what Gin wanted from them in the back-and-forth but 110 feels like just a little bit of condescending Jedi hand-waving "you want to stop having this conversation" out-of-game reference to appeal to some shared experience in the hopes that Gin would ease up.

And right now I feel you're kinda towny so I could go along with this.

VOTE: Raging Spammers

[massive]

Leon what does scum-Magna look like?

I think Flubber is probably town.

[massive]

Hooooly cats you guys page 32 seriously? I'm on 14.

[massive]

I do think there's scum in MoI/Massive/Not_Mafia tho

This scumpool is kinda sketchy
There's a lurker who always lurks, a troll and an unreadable wallposter

Why are these three scum?

TBF I'm only a comparative lurker who always comparatively lurks. I'm sorry I can't word-vomit like some posters.

... or

was I the troll?

Massive's vote on RS didn't look too good to me either, like RS mentioned earlier

What exactly was "not too good" about it? It actually had reasons so ... did you disagree with those? Your vote on me is from RVS so no idea what you're trying to push here.

{ 26 }

[massive]

Generally you interact with what's going on. Ya know, real time interactions.

Yeah, not everyone plays this way.

{ 27 }

I feel like ProHawk is pretty easy to push here. You can't give him a hard time about making catch up posts (which, he should catch up, he's been busy he says) and then demand he interact real time (because, his only response is obviously going to be, I need to catch up, I've been busy) AND THEN shit on the only real-time interaction he can do. He feels forced to replace out and then this:

VOTE: massive

Next?

Someone who is "mis-scumread" consistently early in the game pushing to lynch lurkers? COME ON SON

Cuz I want the dude to TALK to me instead of just sheeping onto my wagon really early.

LOOK OUT I also don't interact in real time a lot.

{ 28 }

[massive]

He accused you of trying to not answer questions in 110 but 3 minutes later you made a post, 112, talking about exactly what about what he accused you of not doing.

Given that he made that post over a 100 posts after the event happened, if he was reading the thread then surely he wouldn't have missed that part.

110 feels like just a little bit of condescending Jedi hand-waving "you want to stop having this conversation" out-of-game reference to appeal to some shared experience in the hopes that Gin would ease up.

That's not what I said. And 112 doesn't fix 110 from my perspective.

Other flaws is that he never explained what "The Fear" was when he was asked.

Theres also the elephan in the room that Rc is a good player and believing anyone can have a correct read on his alignement by the first post in rvs is just not happening
-CK

Cloud are you ... are you AFRAID of RC or something?

I don't know, this wasn't that hard, my ISO's not that long.

[massive]

We're poking a lion and trying to get it to talk.
Is that a bad thing massive?
-Ali

I don't know? I understand engaging people but I imagine I could think of more townie ways to do it than "poking a lion."

[massive]

I'm caught up AMA

[massive]

It's unlikely to encourage me to post on the weekend. See: My sig.

[massive]

I'm always encouraged, you don't need to vote for me for bad reasons.

[massive]

Why are asking Leon this when you participated in Princess Bride Mafia (even if it was ever so briefly before we turbo-Executed you Day 1) and saw scum MoI first-hand?

I was so pissed at that, I didn't keep up with it.

It bothers me that massive isn't really trying to push his reads

Well, heavens, I'm glad you've been able to move on from "it bothers me he isn't posting" to this.

[massive]

Yes, please vig me, sounds like a plan.

[massive]

legittly lost my cool and started criticizing his game play and he hammered me even though I was confirmed by my neighbours (which was a masonary)

Uh no, there was no masonry. You trying to play it off as "massive is so bad he'd lynch a mason" is pretty horrible.

I like to think my town game is pretty obvious. I'm pretty low key D1-2. I like to soak it in.

In fact, vifam just saw my town game, so I'd be curious what he sees that he thinks is scummy.

[massive]

Who's scum?

I don't know. Still OK with my vote on Spammers. Maybe Not_Mafia. I think Magna is town, and AElla (this looks similar to vifam-town). Probably need a bit to get a handle on Cakez and Flubber. And I need to not forget that you tricked me in the last game we played together. I can't decide whether FA wants me to townread her because she's treating me like shit, but that play lost us Villains U-Pick, so YMMV.

[massive]

You seemed a lot more eager and happy to play that game tbh

Totally true! That theme was right up my alley. I joined this one because I didn't want TTH to be sad, but I really have zero idea about the theme.

[massive]

are you saying that your catch-up posts didn’t see a single thing worthy of commentary from Page 14 to 24 (your first catch-up post comment is from Page 26)?

If I recall correctly most of what I thought about saying got said pretty quickly. No sense me repeating it 20 pages later.

Elsa's role sounds like a fruit vendor where they can modify the fruit.

[massive]

Explain your townread on Magna. You had to ask what scum!Magna looks like, so what makes you think this isn't scum!Magna?

I asked because you seemed to indicate you couldn't tell the difference between town-Magna and scum-Magna. I was looking for more information on your thought process, which I got. As for me townreading Magna, I felt like I liked his opening posts, most assuredly calling E&A for their hydra dissonance / early play, but also how he keeps working to interact with other players but in the scope of his main scumread / vote.

[massive]

I think I lurk a lot less than most people try and push. I most certainly always keep fully read. If you want to run me up for not posting a thousand words every day, you can feel free, ain't gonna change that fact that I just can't post nonsense fifty times a day.

[massive]

Not_Mafia, are you doing the manipulating, or are you hoping to be manipulated?

[massive]

All this RC and FA stuff is exhausting.

[massive]

All this RC and FA stuff is exhausting.

Like are you going to make any alignment posts

or

push any reads

or

no

Nah. It's all I can do to keep read up.

If massive is just faffing around that's sadly not an absolute scum read

Oh I like that term. Yeah I'm a D1-2 faffer.

[massive]

But I don't like how many times magna brings up that he's trying to sort people, it feels LAMIST.

Do you feel like he's trying to sort people more, or trying to say he's sorting people more?

[massive]

How does lane get below the null line?

[massive]

MoI has played one game where I was scum. Why don't you ask someone with actual experience with my scum meta, such as Lane who has actually correctly read me as scum every game I've been scum and townread me 'most' of the time where I was town, Sircakez who has extensive play experience with both alignments, or Flubber who was town in the game where I won functional autoloss as scum?

Where would you put me on this list? I know you and I have played more than one game together.

[massive]

I figured the answer was "you're the example of a person I don't respect and ignore" so I guess that's ... better?

[massive]

I will say that gin could be opportunistic scum. But he'd have to be essentially a god scum to be scum this game so I prefer to wait and see if he gets NKed. Like its so unlikely he's able to fake convincing paranoia, convincing efforts to get the game going, good questions, etc.

How long would you like to wait to see if he gets NKed? Because, off the top of my head, I'd kill the vig, RC, and then maybe even the other claimed rolecop just for WIFOM fun before I'd kill Gin. Why is that an important part of your current feelings about Gin?

[massive]

So you are reading RC and Not Mafia as lock Town then?

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

[massive]

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

Ok so he didn’t and I did. What does that say given Infinity is Town reading you?

I think the contents of the list are less likely to be closely scrutinized if he has a townread on me, and more likely to be closely scrutinized by someone still trying to sort me. That being said, even if he believes RC is town, N_M is definitely the "wha huh" on that list.

And while I was trying to figure this out, I thought "so what DOES Infinity think about N_M?" and he goes from light-town (1088) to light-scum (1102) to light-town (1452) with really on this as an explanation:

n_m is n_m

and some mod-related reason which doesn't appear to have anything actually to do with N_M.

Infinity can you explain the flow of the N_M read?

[massive]

I think I'm all for Leonshade too.

My current plan for figuring out the difference is being extra-critical and paranoid of him, to really test whether his reads are genuine.

Reading this and then reading his interaction with Magna does NOT feel like he is treating him with any sort of paranoia at all.

VOTE: Leonshade

[massive]

I would say you haven't been right about much this game, so why do you think you are now?

[massive]

I'm not interested in the mass claim.

[massive]

VOTE: eagerSnake

This isn't vig behavior. This is SK behavior.

[massive]

That readslist from Infinity gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Also, I'm sad there's no SK. That just made too much sense.

[massive]

That readslist from Infinity gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Why?

What do you think about RC v gin?

Because despite saying you need to figure out which of your town reads is wrong, you list six scumreads and don't seem concerned about that end of the equation.

I've already said I think RC is town. Unfortunately, my experience with town-RC is that he's only right about 50% of the time, and I don't know which this is. Gin has felt townish to me since early in the game and in addition I don't react to RC's shouty style very well, which all combines to mean I am a bit dismissive of his reads.

Hey massive I have had no impression of your slot besides someone trying to stay on the down low. Remedy that.

Why single me out? I've posted every work day and I've probably posted more times in this D1 than usual. What have I been avoiding? Like, do you feel so confident in your read of Cakez or Flubber that *I* am the one getting singled out here?

[massive]

The question is – do you think Frozen Angel is a bad enough player to fake-claim Friendly Neighbor as scum? That said I need to look at her Modded games and see if she’s ever used the role as I think she claimed she had.

Playing devil's advocate here -- what's the difference between a bad friendly-neighbor claim and a friendly neighbor claim when you're actually a messenger who can control the contents of that message? If they claimed friendly neighbor and can craft a message that said "Elsa and Anna are town, love, TTH", is that a bad play or a genius play?

Undertale Mafia is fresh in my mind.

[massive]

So what part of that is bastard? If you're in-thread saying you're a friendly neighbor, and you send a message saying "this is your friendly neighbor calling," is that "mod lying to players" which is about the only way that bastardliness would be introduced?

Also, how close to the rolecop claims did they re-read their role PM?

[massive]

But it didn't falsely happen in Undertale. Scum got the ability to send a message to one player, which they decided was going to say "You've been recruited into scum". They had no communication with him beyond that, he had no kill, but he believed he was scum up until the very end, to the point of saying he would flip scum when lynched.

What I guess I'm saying is, wouldn't it be easy to say you were a Friendly Neighbor with that ability, and at least make it LOOK like you were a Friendly Neighbor?

[massive]

Like, I know it's WIFOMy. I guess what I'm asking is, is Lane only wrong because you don't think FA would play bad as scum? If it's possible it was a gambit, is lane LESS wrong?

[massive]

@massive: Why did you keep your vote on eager after you realized there couldn't be an SK?

Because his game has still been scummy and the only thing that kept him from being lynched was the vig claim?

massive, I'd also like to know where you are with reads at the moment and why you've focused in the places you've focused up to this point (which, iirc, has been mainly me)

Flubber is town. Lane goes without saying. RC I still think is town but should obviously be quite dead. Eager is lucky there's no SK. I thought AElla was townish when vifam was posting but that's less locky. I liked Magna's case on Leonshade but every time Leonshade posts I have a problem assuming he's anything but town. That leaves Raging Spammers, you, ProHawk, and NM.

When did I focus on you?

[massive]

Massive, do you think the nm vote on you is weird considering he's role cop?

Means he didn't check me.

[massive]

Waiting I guess but I have a vote ready.

[massive]

I'd prefer Flubber before me if you don't mind.

[massive]

I was going to say, if it's just me and Flubber left, it should be obvious I'm the doc-giver. I gave Flubber a doc shot N1 but the role PM says they get it the next night, so Flubber's claim on THAT part lines up. No sense in me saying who's going to get one tonight but that choice has already been made.

Eager was definitely the right choice for a doc shot use last night. Unfortunately for Flubber, the scum strongman was Cakez so clearly he didn't use the doc shot last night.

VOTE: Flubber

[massive]

I am not one-shot.

So you think scum didn't buy lane's JK claim?

If they did, they would have killed Lane last night and not Snake.

[massive]

I was going to say, if it's just me and Flubber left, it should be obvious I'm the doc-giver. I gave Flubber a doc shot N1 but the role PM says they get it the next night, so Flubber's claim on THAT part lines up. No sense in me saying who's going to get one tonight but that choice has already been made.

Eager was definitely the right choice for a doc shot use last night. Unfortunately for Flubber, the scum strongman was Cakez so clearly he didn't use the doc shot last night.

VOTE: Flubber

Night 3 strongman

You say this like you think scum have more than one 1-night strongman shot?

[massive]

Why are you still arguing that I'm NOT town?

[massive]

Considering the town pr's are stacked ON TOP OF a multi shot doc inventor suspecting only one strong man is incredibly suspicious

Would it be less suspicious if, say, I assumed there were two? Like, the two we already have dead in the game?

[quote="In post 2268,
You claimed and this is role madness. Your following play as town should be absolutely exceptional.[/quote]
I will definitely endeavour to do so!

Leon's voyeur result doesn't clear Flubber, who could have used the doc shot on his buddy but claimed to use it on EagerSnake.

And please feel free to not conftown me, I will just keep giving out doc shots every night.

[massive]

If there are two scum strongmen (bringing the total to three in this game), and we assume that the second scum strongman is conditional like Cakez was, what exactly is the point of my role?

[massive]

Massive, are you arguing that a strongman vig is negative utility?

I am not. I am arguing that if we have three strongman kills the doc gifts are useless. If scum could kill N2 AND N3 through doc shots (which, btw, don't start until N2) then what exactly is the point?

There's just no other explanation. There's no roleblocker -- Magna was the town even-night RB and even then, Leon said no blocking action last night.

[massive]

Wouldn't hate a votecount. I'm not sold on not-Flubber today but I could possibly move to Spammers.

[massive]

Massive what do you think of Aella?
-Ali

I had vifam-town but that was a long time ago and I don't know if there are enough data points to feel 100% about that.

[massive]

I think Flubber should tell us who had the doc LAST night.

[massive]

I'm looking back. I kept up over the weekend and didn't see Flubber say who had the doc shot LAST night, but I was on my phone so I might have missed.

[massive]

Yo are we going to no lynch or are we just going to give scum!NM a win.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
-Ali

So this immediate forced dichotomy makes me think it's RS + NM. RS's interest in Not_Mafia is about zero up until today when suddenly this magic scumread springs forth.

I rolecopped Leon, he's the role he said.

Like, of all the questionable claims (and don't get me wrong, I also hedged on Leon's claim last night for a hot minute), why was THIS the one that made you use your shot? Why not cop someone with a questionable-utility claim, or someone you actually suspected?

[massive]

Vote Count 1.2

RagingSpammers [5] -

lane0168

,

MagnaofIllusion

, massive, Leonshade,

Elsa and Anna

I find it hard to believe that this is all town on town. I know I am town and I believe Leon is town.

Vote Count 1.3

massive [3] -

Ælla Was Spine

,

eagerSnake

,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

RagingSpammers [4] -

lane0168

, massive, Leonshade,

Elsa and Anna

I find it hard to believe that these two competing wagons would both be all town on town.

VOTE: RagingSpammers

[massive]

Well if there are competing wagons on town scum usually don't care and would like to stay out of the way, so that would make sense. The fact that both wagons are on town actually indicates both the wagonees are town to me, since scum would probably be voting you to cw.

The 5 man wagon is an ok point but sometimes that just happens

The problem with this is that the RC vs. Infinity/Gin noise battle happens immediately after this vote count. We never get to see where Cakez or a third possible member ends up because the three of you drown the game. Cakez's next post is:

I HAVE TWENTY PAGES TO READ WISH ME LUCK

a full 400 posts later.

Not_Mafia's next post is:

Oh hey so I'm a 1-shot role-cop too

so he's jumping into the RC/Gin drama.

RagingSpammer's next post is:

hey another 10 pages
-ck

again, after RC/Gin. So saying "well I would have expected X" is moot because of how the game unfolded.

[massive]

Flubber was inactive too, so if we agree that all the scum were inactive VCA is pretty much irrelevant. 5 town aren't that much more likely to be right than they are wrong really on d1

The points isn't that town are right or wrong. The point is, in a game with 10 town, you cannot expect me to believe that the first two wagons involve nine of them and zero scum. Cakez and whichever of the random one-off votes comes from scum make MUCH more sense when the primary wagon is on scum.

[massive]

Yeah, N2 you said I visited someone, who was it?

[massive]

To me it makes sense that Flubber would watch Lane N1 and N2. It also makes sense that he'd split up his N2 watch and his N2 doc. It took me a while today to figure out what he'd done, but at this point Flubber is town.

I don't see any reason to no-lynch here. We don't have any useful information we can gather overnight.

[massive]

@massive Just because flubber' sorry makes sense doesn't mean he's town...his play makes just as much sense as scum watcher.

Incorrect. Scum-Flubber has no reason to watch Lane 2 nights in a row.
Also, why does scum-Flubber watch Lane N1 knowing that Cakez is going to visit him?

For some reason people think watcher claims are fake.
I really do not think that's the case here.

It's not. Flubber correctly identified my target N2.

[massive]

If we're not lynching flubber, we should be lynching in aella and me today because it's very unlikely town has odd- and even-night rbs, conditional BP, doc giver, and commuter

Remind me again of your night choices?

[massive]

I'm just saying -- if you want to critique Flubber because he needs to have a "believable role claim" -- yours is objectively worse. I only point this out because it's unlikely you'll get me to vote Flubber, especially based on this.

Massive what do you think of my theory?
-Ali

I assume you're talking about the "global voyeur is useful for scum" theory? I think it has holes which it feels like we've mostly gone over (starting with "you can't necessarily pair it with tracker results since scum won't automatically have access to it") and I think the role itself is NAI. Role Madness games always seem to have roles that are just "there" so everyone has a role without it impacting the game too much -- fruit vendor, etc. RC's messenger. I think the global voyeur isn't necessarily helpful to either side; if anything, it might be negative utility if it's scum simply because I likely come up as "miscellaneous" even though it's probably critical for scum to kill me.

I also think it's probably important to note that Leonshade confirmed that Flubber used the doc shot I gave him N2, since that's probably the only "protective" ability in the game. That might be an important thing that I haven't thought completely through.

[massive]

In order for Spammers to be town, YOU have to be scum. I don't seehow Flubber or Leon are scum. Convince me?

[massive]

At this point in time it seems we ALL agree that Not_Mafia is, at the very least, uh, NOT Not Mafia. Consensus lynch?

[massive]

Man I feel like the most persuasive person on the planet right now.

[massive]

@massive:

How do you feel about Spammers/Infinity? My order of confidence is RS>Infinity>N_M, I'd much rather lynch RS than NM.

My order of confidence is probably RS>N_M>Infinity.

[massive]

Well for starters

Vote Count 1.2

RagingSpammers [5] -

lane0168

,

MagnaofIllusion

, massive, Leonshade,

Elsa and Anna

I find it hard to believe that this is all town on town. I know I am town and I believe Leon is town.

Vote Count 1.3

massive [3] -

Ælla Was Spine

,

eagerSnake

,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

RagingSpammers [4] -

lane0168

, massive, Leonshade,

Elsa and Anna

I find it hard to believe that these two competing wagons would both be all town on town.

[massive]

From the PM I sent to TTH last night:

Part of me wants to say "no action" and test Leonshade. That would suck for town if (a) I die or even if I don't (b) they won't have a doc shot the next night.

But honestly I can't give it to Lane again. If I die tonight I need someone who can protect Lane the next night. And if I don't die and someone else does, that would be Lane, so it would go unhelpful anyways.

And that means I'm like 50/50 to give it to scum ANYWAYS.

I also thought Flubber had screwed up his results so I didn't go back to Flubber. Had I realized what Flubber had done (ie, watched Lane two nights in a row) I might have rethought this (but I still don't know that it would have mattered).

Good to know I can do VCA to some degree. Sorry that I couldn't push that one through today, but I don't know that I would have come around on Leon either way. Leon you will have my ultimate paranoia forever. That's two games in a row where you've beaten me.

The RC lynch should not have happened and that's why RC is a liability to town every time he rolls town. Unfortunately it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[massive]

RC, I don't think you handicap yourself in any way. I think you handicap the rest of the town with your attitude. Half of the town game is finding scum. The other half is convincing the rest of the town to vote with you. You can do the first half? Fine. But all you want to do is shout about how bad everyone else is because you can't do the second half. No one thinks you're a cunning manipulator. They think you're an obnoxious jerkbag.

[massive]

Lane -- I agree that the N2 choice of giving you the doc wasn't optimal, but I had run out of people I trusted. At least I knew you would actually use the doc shot as intended, heh.

[massive]

All the strongmen though made it moot. My role was useless ultimately.