Mini 1856 - This Mafia Game is for pieguyn (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

like you can see where I directly tried to poke him hoping he'd expand on his GE read some more, and all it was met with was radio silence from him.

that was me hoping to probe him for content that I could read irrespective of the "slip".

[Nahdia]

accident leading to her replacement?

[pieguyn]

accident leading to her replacement?

actually I don't know if I should expand any further on that. let me check with GIF.

[pieguyn]

also I know you said you're not really paying attention to self meta, but I have almost eidetic memory of what happens in my games. when I'm scum I like to think I'm at least half-aware of what to expect from the people who I know who I'm playing with and I try to play around their tendencies to get them to see my play and assess it and come to a town read on me (as I said looking objectively town), and the thing is, I distinctly remember that in paint mafia, you went after Zulfy for pushing a "slip" on you that wasn't really a slip. it's something I'm aware of and I just wouldn't try something like that with you in the game who I know would be suspicious of it.

it just... literally is not what I would do, at all. even if I wanted to hard push Luna's slot as scum for some reason or another.

[Nahdia]

i remember in paint mafia u wouldnt friggin lynch katsuki.

[pieguyn]

like I explicitly remember you making some post somewhere (don't think it was the same game, I think it was elsewhere) that you said that going after people for pushing "fake slips" is even a trademark of yours.

I just wouldn't forget something like that. I wouldn't.

p-edit: I know. -.-

[Nahdia]

mm. that particular tell has more success in chat mafia i've found. it's still something that pings me to an extent though.

[pieguyn]

accident leading to her replacement?

actually I don't know if I should expand any further on that. let me check with GIF.

GIF responded, I can't talk about it in any more depth at all. I'm sorry.

[pisskop]

Im home with my family for the day.

I started to type out a long paragraph about how I wasnt scum, and then realized thats what'd Id do as scum.


Ill have a catchup post for whatever was said tonight, but for now I'm glad the game isnt over yet, cuz then we'd lose.

VOTE: pieguyn

Nahdia, its about more than simply: 'is pisskop acting like town or not' or 'would pie do this or that as scum'. Although it is about those.
Lets look at safe claims, at meta, at recent history rolling what.

[Nahdia]

but yeah i mean i would consider it just as likely that you forgot i look for that sort of thing, then remembered after you did it, and are now using it as a point in your defense, failing not doing it in the first place.

not saying that's what happened just... it's not much good from my perspective.

[Nahdia]

I started to type out a long paragraph about how I wasnt scum, and then realized thats what'd Id do as scum.

...smarmy. off to a bad start, my man.

[pisskop]

:<

But thats who I am.

Smarm and charm rhyme

[pieguyn]

(never mind that a scum member who can't kill from an uninformed POV is really, really unexpected... o wait, it makes more sense that he'd think of it as a likely idea if he knew GIF had put one into the game)

I want to go into more depth on this because I think this is a really, really huge tell and I think I can say this completely objectively. I know it's kind of a wall but seriously, please please read it.

to be honest, I still am not quite sure what the hell is going on with this setup: putting a scum member in who can't kill just is not the kind of thing I would expect GIF would do and it really isn't the kind of thing I would expect ever. it's a stupid idea for a role and unless there are serious shenanigans which I just am not thinking of going on it's practically impossible to balance around it, too (also, for clarity, I don't think pisskop is a traitor that can't kill, I think he probably is a full scum member who just can't commit the kill - I just do not see how the fuck the setup works otherwise).

so, if you look at my behavior the past... 6... game days, you can see that I'm attempting to scum hunt normally, and that I largely haven't thought about it because with the last scum not being able to kill, it really should have been an auto-win, so it shouldn't have mattered (the only way is if you flip out and vote me). you can also see that obviously, because of this, all of my reads were fucking wrong. I spent the whole game attempting to hunt a scum the entire time who couldn't kill and you can see that I wasn't factoring it into my reads at all: that someone might just be going crazy and doing things no scum with the ability to kill would ever do because they have no other shot at winning the game.

if you look at pisskop's, though? he pretty much jumped to the conclusion of "last scum is pie and she's doing all of these things because she can't kill" immediately (like sometime D4 or so iirc. literally as soon as people started to think that there was something going on with the scum kill).

I maintain that this thought progression is impossible. making the last scum unable to kill, from an unformed POV, is something that would make absolutely no sense. it's something that you wouldn't even think about because it shouldn't be relevant, you're in such a good position if it's the case so there's no point in thinking too hard about it and you should plan around the probably worst case scenario instead of the really unlikely good scenario. you didn't start to think it was likely iirc all the way until D7, I really didn't even believe it until this day happened and it was confirmed. pisskop, though? jumped to that conclusion immediately and staked his entire game from D4+ around it.

in the first place, objectively it just is not a likely role - the only real reason I can think of it makes any sense for him to unconditionally assume that was what was going on so quickly was that if he knew for sure that it was something GIF would be willing to do, hence, had the role himself (meanwhile I'm still over here not knowing what the hell GIF was thinking when he put a scum role who couldn't kill into the game). but if you keep going and think about what he would do once he had reached that position? he knows that he has to lynch me in order to win, he would have known ever since N2 and since I was practically a universal town read the entire game (apart from TD37...) the only way he can do this is to spend literally the entire game case-building on me and trying to solidify his position for when it actually is do-or-die re: the lynch on me. and if you'll notice, that's exactly what he did: his whole push on me where he launches into thinking that I must be scum and incapable of killing, and his reasons for it, and him ignoring that the things I was doing made absolutely no sense if I was hoping to solo the game as a scum who couldn't kill were so ridiculous and I'd be interested in seeing what you think his town thought process there actually was. in fact if you go back, he's been trying to line up a push on me and try to discredit the idea that my role cleared me all the way *since* N2/D3.

do you follow?

[pieguyn]

the thing giving me reservations about pisskop is that whenever it looked like what was going on with me and him this game would start to actually get dangerous for him, he kept stepping back and tiptoe-ing around it, i.e., his recent posts today where he seems to have dropped the push on me entirely. that, plus the complete ridiculousness of a lot of what he wrote about me in general.

I'm aware this isn't *really* a tell, since, yeah, obviously any town player who was aware of how anti-town our interactions were would want to stop it too. but I have had too many scum act like that towards me and I'm never fortunate enough to have the people who are sensible enough to back off actually be town.

I'm also aware that I've been consistently wrong in this game since like D3, and to be honest I'm in a similar kind of boat with GE where I worry I'm being manipulated (his posts around D7 end in particular are posts that I really wish I had stepped back and thought about a bit more before going ahead with TD37 lynch), so on the other hand, /shrug.

I think this is also a relevant tell, especially when you consider that he actually was ran up to L-1 largely for how stupid he was being re: me sometime back I think on D5 or D6 when Cakez was alive.

[pieguyn]

but yeah i mean i would consider it just as likely that you forgot i look for that sort of thing, then remembered after you did it, and are now using it as a point in your defense, failing not doing it in the first place.

not saying that's what happened just... it's not much good from my perspective.

re: this, if it helps, recall that you pushing Zulfy over the slip that wasn't really a slip was a large part of why I was so completely convinced you were scum the entire game.

at the very least, if you don't believe that I'm very good at recalling the kinds of things people I play with are likely to do, I definitely would not forget such a drastic misread and I wouldn't forget how such a drastic misread was able to occur, especially on someone like you who I like.

[pieguyn]

like you see how hard I kick myself over games all the time. literally the thing I hate most in mafia games is feeling that I've just let down and pissed off people who I actually like (again this is also something I have expressed completely outside of this game).

[pieguyn]

see: post 114 of paint mafia 2 dead PT

[pieguyn]

if you choose to reread D1, pay close attention to pisskop's interactions - toss out the reservations you're having about N1 and think about his play D1.

he spent the entirety of D1 soft defending Varsoon, and he never gave any reason for it anywhere: he said a lot of things like "slight town lean", "our hood supports him", "can we not lynch him today" (attempting to use his hood status with him to not lynch him), "Cakez/Varsoon is T/T", but no actual, substantive reason for town reading him based on his *play*.

he had pretty much no substantive interaction at all with Wisdom.

I honestly guess I suppose that the thing N1 was him attempting to make some kind of passing comment along the lines of "I think I'm in every neighborhood so there is some chance Varsoon and Wisdom's hood is a fake claim", then Varsoon was unceremoniously killed by Aero and he really was just stuck with no real option to argue his way out of it with me having firmly identified Wisdom as scum and very seriously intending to make him dead; at that point better to just abandon ship and bus him. I do not think that he would have made anywhere near as big a deal over it if the end of D1/N1 didn't happen the way that it did.

/shrug things like this are generally why I think neighborhoods are cancer, it would have been a lot easier if either of beeboy or dwlee had actually summarized the hood at some point or another.

[pieguyn]

like he claims that he was some sort of savior who "caught all the scum this game" but really no, he wasn't, after I figured out Wisdom was scum end-of-D1 the lynch on Wisdom D2 was happening at my hands regardless of anything he did and you can see this if you look at the timing.

[pieguyn]

I guess the key point here in all of this is that if you think about it from the POV of his push on me being something necessary that he literally had to do or he wouldn't be able to endgame, the major evidence for him being town (or at least what to my mind was the major evidence) isn't anything anymore, and his actual play is pretty transparently scummy (and if you'll notice I thought he was scum at first and then mostly just town read him because the push on me was so batshit insane that I didn't see it coming from scum, not realizing it was necessary for him).

I am sure that I can continue and find more things that make sense coming from him as scum, but I highly recommend you just look at it yourself and try to notice what I'm pointing out here.

if you're still held up about N1, just do the exercise with me: read what I wrote in 3667 and try to think of a counter-point to it and see if you can't come up with any. it's sort of not the most expected play, but I think when you think about it that way it's very plausible.

[pieguyn]

if you look at pisskop's posts D3, the most apparent thing is that he continually tried to misrep my stance on dwlee as "omg pie is claiming all the scum are in hoods". my stance on dwlee the entire time was very clear (that I didn't like their play and that I found the hood speculation entirely irrelevant), he basically spent all of it trying to obfuscate claiming I was somehow being unreasonable for not considering the hoods and that my push on dwlee was a liability/weak-link push (when it wasn't at all and clearly so).

I thought at first he was just being incredibly stupid and making up reasons to push me because he was pissed off at me, but no, he was just making up reasons to push me. it isn't genuine at all (look at i.e. 2531 ~ 2576) and you remember how stupid it was and how you kept trying to call him out for it and he acted like a complete stone wall? this is why.

[pieguyn]

continuing through to D4, it is fairly noticeable to see that apart from the dwlee wagon, pisskop has continually voted on most of the lynches from there on out (Aero, Cakez, he passed up TD37 in favor of pushing me which he achieved L-1 on, then GE). all of which were lynches I was pushing, despite simultaneously scum reading me and attempting to act insistent that I was scum somehow manipulating the game in some way or the other.

that's him taking the easy route for clearing out the entire player list while still attempting to keep me set up as a later lynch, not him actually attempting to stand up to the direction I was taking the game and challenging me - because whenever he tested the waters for a push on me it was obvious it'd just lead to him being lynched. (see: the point I had made before that it looked like he was attempting to back off whenever it looked like his push on me would get dangerous for him)

[pieguyn]

back on D6 and I'm sorry Cakez. :<

am I obvious town yet? I feel like I really, really should be.

/attempts to send subliminal message saying "Cakez caught pisskop the last game, he did it here too" over to you

[pieguyn]

if I'm scum, it is significantly better for me to lynch pisskop yesterday and GE today as opposed to doing it the other way around. or even all the way back on D5 when he almost did get lynched (correction, it wasn't L-1 but he was the leading wagon and his wagon was very very serious). I would have had pretty much every excuse to (posts starting from 3122), and at that point me, GE, and Cakez would have pretty much guaranteed votes.

there isn't really a reason for scum-me to risk this 3p scenario at all.

[pisskop]

Okay.

So Im kind of but not really here.


I see a lot of spam from pie. I can only expect she wants to close out strong. pie was always strong-spirited. Its why effort=/=alignment.


Why I am town:

- I just rolled scum in like 2 of my last 3 games. -> odds are heavily against it mechanically.
- I caught Wis and outed Varsoon. -> did we forget that Bboy and dwelee happened? They go out of their way to explain how I outed the hood and was hunting with my role.
- I am not acting like my scum game. and even pie has admitted it. dont think, at least. the curse of self-meta and all. Self-meta is a bad practice for many reasons, but you are a poor neutral observer of yourself.
- I am putting in

effort

into this. Normally effort is something I save for school and the gym.


Why is Pie scum:

- Holy hell.
- Her claim was guaranteed untestable due to mechancis.
- - Stay with me here. there has been no scumkill this game. We know a red maf is around. Traitor is the most likely suspect. A pie-traitor who was surfing for inauguration into the scumteam (by being killed traitors can be made 'full' scum, usually) goes and sinks the strong LG but weakish EG player wisdom in order to raise a giant flag that outs herself to anyone who knows her and is looking for a traitor. That flips scum, and then she is stuck with it.
Luckily for her, her claim of backup IC lets her literally skate to the endgame unchallenged. Except for me.

- Her play has been opportunistic. She's killed the hood because she needed to reduce the number of confirmed townies. She's tried several times to suggest (but slyly not push for) a Policy Lynch on me for being me. She's been goading people, regularly insults people for suspecting her, and constantly underplays the value of the contributions of the other players compared to her.
- The game was DESIGNED to piss off Pie. Would being a traitor scum piss her off more or would being a backup ic with a second ic in reserve piss her off more? Yea, traitor.
- the setup makes a second confirmed townie almost abhorrent to the idea of balance. Lets look. We have

1. Fruit vendor
   
2. 2 VT neighbors
   
3. 1 multi-hood neighbor
   
4. a town vig
   
5. an innocent child with the option to out at day
   
6. a roleblocker
   
7. a tracker
   
   
8. 2 scum Goon Neighbors with no special powers
   
9. a mysterious scum with no kill powers and a safe claim
   
   Quick. balance that game out for anything other than a town win.