In post 173, JaeReed wrote: In post 146, nancy wrote: In post 144, JaeReed wrote:How is lemon reading like town unable to towntell to you?
Do you find taking someone to L-1 to be inherently scummy?
Do you believe any person who hammers or threatens to hammer early in the game is likely to be scum for it?
- Because I think the apparent scumminess of her behavior is better explained by her being new. She looks like she's trying to be a good townie and doing a poor job of it, rather than like she's trying to masquerade as a townie and doing a poor job of it. Is that a bad reason for that read? Should we lynch someone who behaves scummy and if they're Town let that be a lesson to them?
- Not inherently, but when there isn't a strong scum read on the player (I think some of the votes were RV also?) then it's suspicious?
- Only in this situation, but it would depend on how she flipped. If Townie, scummy, if Mafia, not. How prevalent is bussing on mafiascum? I can't stand it personally but I don't exactly have a finger on the meta here
- Always aim to win. If you think someone is town and you're town then it's not in your best interest to lynch them. I don't believe it's a bad reason but can you show me some examples of where you believe she's showing newbtown over newbscum?
- I know many absolutely love flashwagons to L-1 in RVS. Anti-town does not necessarily mean scum (although it quite often can!) so it's better to look at the motivation for such an action. For instance, are they openly encouraging a hammer so as to place pressure on the person who got wagoned? Are they being passive about it and making a show of telling people not to hammer and to wait for reactions? Both instances can be personality tells, but I've found the ones more likely to encourage a hammer (which you'd see as anti-town because the person could just claim and they might be a PR, or someone might actually use that as an excuse to hammer without a claim) tend to be town wanting to force the game out of RVS by having the person being wagoned start scumhunting off their wagon as soon as possible, where the ones making a big show about being pro-town are negating some of the pressure the person being wagoned would feel, and might actually be scum.
- Some players will hard bus often, others (Thor comes to mind) will never bus. I think the majority like to switch it up to be unpredictable. As far as whether scum or town are more or less likely to hammer depending on the person's alignment...I don't *think* there's any hard and fast rule to it? Granted, VCA isn't exactly my specialty and there *is* someone here for whom it is... I have performance anxiety mentioning any of it around Titus for that reason =P She might have more solid opinions on that than me.
I can say... Generally in a newbie as scum you don't want to bus, and especially so early on. It's 7 town vs 2 scum, and town are guaranteed in any setup to have at least one PR. Not to mention it draws the win out until later in the game, so you have to spend more time dodging people re-evaluating you and PRs potentially clearing other townies or checking you.
The issue with my read is that it's so subjective. Depending on how I choose to interpret it, I'm sure I could take nearly any of her posts to be either newbscum or newbtown. Reading her as Town feels like giving her the benefit of the doubt and at times second-guessing myself. Reading her as scum feels like I'm being overly critical. Either way I read her, I often feel like I'm justifying my read by assuming that it's true, which sucks super much.
In post 36, EccentricLemon wrote:I see you have missed me, but I guess that fact that no one else voted for me is a good sign.
I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.
Newbscum, because it doesn't seem towny to be ready/able to be convinced of someone's guilt without even being out of RV. The first line could also be hinting at this - the fear that people could somehow inherently know that she was scum and bw her to death. Newbtown, because she is expressing concern about scumhunting (even if she isn't actively doing anything about it yet) and isn't losing her cool about getting votes.
In post 68, EccentricLemon wrote:Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.
I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.
I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.
The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.
Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.
Newbscum, because she looks like she's trying to subtly dissuade people from reading her as scum (see how I'm assuming scum here in order to make the read?), because of the wording "prove her innocence" (is that a slip or an example of reading scum because assuming scum?), because of her readiness to make townreads on little evidence, and because her automatic stance is distrust (towards Jae). Newbtown, because she looks like she's trying to direct people's arguments away from over-analysis and towards more useful things and is at least making an attempt at scumhunting.
In post 72, EccentricLemon wrote:If a person gets voted up, it's more likely people are going to discuss them. My vote wasn't a hammer or anything. That was my logic on what would happen. But since that didn't happen and doesn't seem like it's going to happen,
UNVOTE: GuiltyLion. I was just stating my purpose and my suspicions so that people can use them to draw conclusions, I'm not actually accusing anyone.
Newbscum, because wishy-washy, defensive, seemingly inconsistent (see
73), and trying to stay on people's good sides and not attract attention. Newbtown, because according to her stated logic her behavior does make sense, and her behavior is at least consistent in terms of being afraid of doing anything wrong.
In post 74, EccentricLemon wrote:Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and might have even hurt me down the road.
I meant to add in #68 that I've been pressed for time, so I may not have read each post as carefully as I hoped to.
I said I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I unvoted because there wasn't any reason to keep my vote there. I personally don't see any point to random voting unless it generates discussion, which I understand is why it's encouraged. I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.
Newbscum, because inconsistent in her reads, bad scumhunting, and trying to deflect attention. Newbtown, because her scumminess is explainable by a fear to do anything wrong and general clumsiness, which is consistent. (And yet again, giving her the benefit of the doubt.)
In post 82, EccentricLemon wrote: In post 76, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 74, EccentricLemon wrote:Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and
might have even hurt me down the road
.
What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?
In post 74, EccentricLemon wrote:I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.
Why not be accusatory?
Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.
I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).
tojam2 wrote:@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.
I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.
Newbscum, because the comment on bussing GL has no context that I can see, because it potentially displays a knowledge of GL's alignment (worried about being on a bw against a townie or worried about bussing a partner?), has an exaggerated sense of how suspicious she is. Newbtown because again, her behavior is consistent with being afraid of doing something wrong, of being in the spotlight when she's not sure what to do, because her scumminess is still explainable as her just being very clumsy.
In post 89, EccentricLemon wrote: In post 86, nancy wrote:Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars.
I haven't been able to find a good image, before anyone starts interrogating me. I tend to be very picky with stuff like avatars. If I were trying to blend in, I just wouldn't post and hope people forgot about me.
I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.
However, she has some experience with forum mafia, even if it is only a bit, and I wouldn't precisely consider her a newbie. She seems like she knows what she's doing.
In post 47, nancy wrote:
My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)
In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.
I'd also like to point out that tojam did accuse me pretty harshly about baseless gut accusing and having opinions prior to the game, both of which I don't think I am guilty of. Could be a sign of skimming or just me being an idiot again.
Newbscum, because wishy-washy, because she reacted fearfully to my baseless avatar comment, again suggesting that she may be oversensitive to her own suspiciousness, because she appears concerned about how she should be blending in and has potentially lied in saying that she would blend in by lurking, and because she is again primarily trying to deflect attention away from herself (comments about me and it being D1). Newbtown, because her behavior is consistent in terms of being motivated by fear, and is still explainable as just clumsiness/newbishness.
In post 119, EccentricLemon wrote:
I'm so sorry, I misread that GL as an EL. My bad. Sorry I called you out on it.
nancy wrote:EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet
I just got home from school plus a 5 hour meet. Just to clarify.
My take on Titus' vote is that if she is scum, she is trying to jump on the bandwagon to further people's distrust of me, since I'm already suspicious. If Titus is town, she might perceive me as a real threat.
However, I am concerned about the lack of explanation past:
In post 95, Titus wrote:VOTE: EccentricLemon
My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.
and
We're already into some good discussions and there's quite a lot to base a reason off of. I've said quite a bit and so have other people. Just saying "Gut" seems a bit weird if you ask me.
Newbscum, because oversensitivity to her own suspiciousness and minimal effort at scumhunting. Newbtown, because surely she wouldn't be saying things like "perceive me as a real threat" if she actually were scum.
In post 133, EccentricLemon wrote: In post 66, Titus wrote: In post 61, bowdown wrote:Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a
vote toejam
because gross.
Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.
In post 127, Titus wrote:Hey GL,
Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?
What do you think of me?
Why you ignore my hello?
What did you think of my freudian slip?
I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.
Same thing with tojam:
In post 132, tojam2 wrote:
I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.
1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.
2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.
Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.
Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2
Newbscum, because she is jumping to conclusions, maybe just in order to seem to be scumhunting. Newbtown, because I believe her reaction to Titus is genuine, and she's at least trying to contribute to the scumhunt.
In post 140, EccentricLemon wrote: In post 135, Agent Sparkles wrote:
You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?
It's poor wording.
I meant in that situation she wasn't aggressively trying to get someone lynched. She wasn't lobbying for someone to get hanged, she was pointing out a detail that bothered her. If you notice, she's one of the most active users in terms of posting and calling people out. I think you can call that aggressive in terms of overall strategy. She's playing aggressively but she wasn't actively accusing anyone (hence that she hadn't changed her vote) at the time.
In post 135, Agent Sparkles wrote:
That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.
I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?
Baseless paranoia. Personal reasons. Not something I'm willing to discuss further. It'll go away as the game progresses. I don't even know why I included that.
Having a knowledgeable tone could point to scum because the scum is supposed to be the informed minority (because they know who is town and who isn't, and they are able to communicate outside of the group) and the town the uninformed majority (because they aren't certain who the other town are and who is the scum). Implying the you have more knowledge than what can be reasonably deduced from what has been previously said, especially on the first day, is therefore usually a scumtell.
That being said, I agree with the point that it's hard to tell when Jae is in teacher mode and when they are in player mode.
Jae, since you have a lot of experience with this game, it can seem at times that you're blurring these lines on purpose, so it wold be nice if you were clearer when you're switching between the two. I would hate if that were the case.
Newbscum, because the lean of her comments about Mafia communication, because she is suddenly behaving differently, and because her final sentence seems disjointed. Newbtown, because her change in behavior away from being motivated by fear and aversion to attention is explainable by the game having progressed, and her feeling more comfortable as it has. (I've certainly become more comfortable since page 1.)
In post 168, EccentricLemon wrote:It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.
This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.
Newbscum, because of the potential hints of knowledge about Jae's alignment, and because of the consistent attention to what information scum have and how they'd use it.
In post 170, EccentricLemon wrote:I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.
Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:
In post 132, tojam2 wrote: In post 127, Titus wrote:Hey GL,
Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?
What do you think of me?
Why you ignore my hello?
What did you think of my freudian slip?
I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.
1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.
2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.
It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.
I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.
I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.
In post 171, EccentricLemon wrote:Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.
Noobscum, because she's quick to conclude that someone is scum on little basis, and because her behavior isn't consistent. Noobtown, because she's attempting to scumhunt.
VOTE: EccentricLemon
