Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[Revan]

Hi guys! I'll start reading these 6 pages now, so hopefully I'll be ready to go in a little while!

[bowdown]

Jae - so those questions are completely not-IC Jae, they're Jae playing the game. Got it. A couple of yours haven't seemed very pro-town motivated (102 in particular, there was another one but I can't remember or find it).

@bowdown RE: Titus naked voting. Why do you believe Titus voted EccentricLemon at this stage in the game? What do you think Titus may have seen that would prompt a vote?

Those questions extend to others as well, btw, if you want to take a stab.

How does asking this question help the town?

Also, on you/nancy/tojam:

1 - If we lynch tojam and he flips scum, you have spent a lot of this game attacking nancy for gut-scumreading tojam but not voting there.

2 - What is your read on nancy? She is probably my best town read at this point in the game. If you've got a scumread on her, are there any reasons besides those in 109? If you're scumreading her, why are you not voting her?

3 - How are you reading tojam? What do you think of 131?

[bowdown]

@Titus - Did you learn anything from the naked vote?

[bowdown]

Sparkles, what is your read on tojam?

[Revan]

I just finished page 2, and I have a few things I would like to mention.

Agent Sparkles seems very eager, and his posts contain content that furthers discussion. Town.

E Lemon reads as a nervous town to me. Her sheeping Jae's RVS vote reads to me as her just shadowing the IC, because she wasn't sure what to do yet. Her 36 also reads town to me. I don't think scum would admit that they have no reads.

Nancy reads town to me as well, because her thought processes are very similar to mine. Especially when she was talking about picking at town & scum reads.

JaeReed said something that pinged me. When she mentions her scum game, she says something like "I've only been scum twice as far as completed games". I feel like this is hinting that she is scum now.

[Revan]

Done with page 3.

@bowdown

you read TriangleShark's vote reason as forced, it must be fake also. Aren't all RVS votes backed with silly, fake reasons? How is TriangleShark's entrance different then the others?

[Revan]

Page 4 is read!

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

Titus is obviously scum. Insincere questioning, and posts seem to be coming from someone that has the motivation to distract town.

VOTE: Titus

[Revan]

Page 5 read, almost done!

I'm townreading bowdown for being petty.

[tojam2]

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

If this is your first game, getting into a tussle in Mafia is time-consuming and raises mt blood pressure, which I've been told is bad because I have a sinus infection. Sometimes I need a minute off task.

[bowdown]

Done with page 3.

@bowdown

you read TriangleShark's vote reason as forced, it must be fake also. Aren't all RVS votes backed with silly, fake reasons? How is TriangleShark's entrance different then the others?

It just does. The emoticon + the text heart feel like trying too hard to be light-hearted.

[Revan]

You think that is alignment indicative? From my point of view, both town and scum want to be liked, and can use emoticons to achieve this.

[bowdown]

You think that is alignment indicative? From my point of view, both town and scum want to be liked, and can use emoticons to achieve this.

I don't think that using emoticons is alignment indicative. I'm saying that the post had the tone of an evil trying to fit in. It's not a big thing because it's trying to toneread a random vote post, but it was enough of a thing that I wanted to call it out.

[bowdown]

Hey tojam - any thoughts on what I said in 134?

[Revan]

Alright, fair enough.

I'm a bit disappointed that everyone disappeared when I replaced in.

[EccentricLemon]

I'm still here, don't worry. I just haven't formulated anything constructive since my last post.

[bowdown]

I'll be off and on for a bit. What do you (or anyone else) think about this?

I learn a lot more without people sheeping me.

[Revan]

I don't think much of it.

[bowdown]

I have some thoughts on it but I'll wait until Jae responds to 151.

[EccentricLemon]

It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.

This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.

[bowdown]

Lemon - I can see where you're coming from with Titus going through the motions (and sort of agree, but also think that Titus is actually trying to move the village forward with some of her posts). I don't think that Titus is sheeping Jae though.

You have scumreads on both Titus and tojam - what are your thoughts on this interaction between them? Mafia-mafia?

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

Not a particularly large fan of this.

Not following someone's reads and proceeding to ascribe town motivation is a little sketchy.

[EccentricLemon]

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.

Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.

I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.

I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.

[EccentricLemon]

Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.

[JaeReed]

Jae - so those questions are completely not-IC Jae, they're Jae playing the game. Got it. A couple of yours haven't seemed very pro-town motivated (102 in particular, there was another one but I can't remember or find it).

@bowdown RE: Titus naked voting. Why do you believe Titus voted EccentricLemon at this stage in the game? What do you think Titus may have seen that would prompt a vote?

Those questions extend to others as well, btw, if you want to take a stab.

How does asking this question help the town?

Also, on you/nancy/tojam:

1 - If we lynch tojam and he flips scum, you have spent a lot of this game attacking nancy for gut-scumreading tojam but not voting there.

2 - What is your read on nancy? She is probably my best town read at this point in the game. If you've got a scumread on her, are there any reasons besides those in 109? If you're scumreading her, why are you not voting her?

3 - How are you reading tojam? What do you think of 131?

I was trying to lead people to take a look at EccentricLemon's postings and take a guess as to what could have triggered Titus voting there without giving up what Titus was trying to teach people too easily. I think everyone has posted since then, though, so she shouldn't be too mad about me saying this.

What I tend to do with naked votes is look at them in context with the game and see if I can figure out what triggered it. There are a lot of people who won't give reasons with their votes. Some are just lazy, others do it to actively test to see if people are going to look at things and try to understand their viewpoint (which tends more towards them genuinely trying to solve the game). I was using what Titus was doing as a kicking off point to guide without specifically leading to any answers.

My take: The freudian slip shows she thinks EL and GL could be partners due to the "slip" (or perhaps just Lemon knows Lion will flip town and so Lemon is scum). The naked vote was done more in the active test method.

So my question there was to help the newbies on the right track while also wanting to not ruin the test, not least of all because the results can benefit everyone trying to read.

1. Evaluating nancy. I spent a lot of the game trying to get a better read on her, and lately more trying to understand her reads to see if they have merit.
As for 2 & 3 I'll give my reads soon.

[JaeReed]

How is lemon reading like town unable to towntell to you?
Do you find taking someone to L-1 to be inherently scummy?
Do you believe any person who hammers or threatens to hammer early in the game is likely to be scum for it?

- Because I think the apparent scumminess of her behavior is better explained by her being new. She looks like she's trying to be a good townie and doing a poor job of it, rather than like she's trying to masquerade as a townie and doing a poor job of it. Is that a bad reason for that read? Should we lynch someone who behaves scummy and if they're Town let that be a lesson to them?
- Not inherently, but when there isn't a strong scum read on the player (I think some of the votes were RV also?) then it's suspicious?
- Only in this situation, but it would depend on how she flipped. If Townie, scummy, if Mafia, not. How prevalent is bussing on mafiascum? I can't stand it personally but I don't exactly have a finger on the meta here

- Always aim to win. If you think someone is town and you're town then it's not in your best interest to lynch them. I don't believe it's a bad reason but can you show me some examples of where you believe she's showing newbtown over newbscum?
- I know many absolutely love flashwagons to L-1 in RVS. Anti-town does not necessarily mean scum (although it quite often can!) so it's better to look at the motivation for such an action. For instance, are they openly encouraging a hammer so as to place pressure on the person who got wagoned? Are they being passive about it and making a show of telling people not to hammer and to wait for reactions? Both instances can be personality tells, but I've found the ones more likely to encourage a hammer (which you'd see as anti-town because the person could just claim and they might be a PR, or someone might actually use that as an excuse to hammer without a claim) tend to be town wanting to force the game out of RVS by having the person being wagoned start scumhunting off their wagon as soon as possible, where the ones making a big show about being pro-town are negating some of the pressure the person being wagoned would feel, and might actually be scum.
- Some players will hard bus often, others (Thor comes to mind) will never bus. I think the majority like to switch it up to be unpredictable. As far as whether scum or town are more or less likely to hammer depending on the person's alignment...I don't *think* there's any hard and fast rule to it? Granted, VCA isn't exactly my specialty and there *is* someone here for whom it is... I have performance anxiety mentioning any of it around Titus for that reason =P She might have more solid opinions on that than me.

I can say... Generally in a newbie as scum you don't want to bus, and especially so early on. It's 7 town vs 2 scum, and town are guaranteed in any setup to have at least one PR. Not to mention it draws the win out until later in the game, so you have to spend more time dodging people re-evaluating you and PRs potentially clearing other townies or checking you.

[JaeReed]

Page 4 is read!

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

Titus is obviously scum. Insincere questioning, and posts seem to be coming from someone that has the motivation to distract town.

VOTE: Titus

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8581336
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8619185

What about her questions so far seems insincere to you? Which posts do you believe are aiming to distract the town rather than provide a different playstyle for people to get accustomed to before reaching games outside the newbie queue?