Mini 1860 - Game Over!

[gerryoat]

I'm being facetious because your reason for voting me is that bad. I've shown this game that if you have a decent reason for scumreading me, I won't automatically think you're scum. But your reason is awful

I don't even care if he's scum or not anymore. He prob is scum and trying to copy his attitude from last time. But we have a better chance winning with him in the GY and not grudge voting if he's town.

Pot meet kettle.

Except that my reasons don't suck at all.

You're voting me thinking I'm trying to copy my attitude form another game and you also want to PL me.

I'm voting you for actual game related reasons aka not wanting to vote scum day 1 and ending day 2 early when people said there was no need to rush.

My reasons > you're reasons.

you game reasons are bad. I didn't vote someone that others didnt vote either. And I tried to prevent the mislynch on key but you think im scum for not voting someone and voting scum too quickly

[gerryoat]

What PR tells were in Dave's ISO?

Yes Twofaced, answer this. since you say I "picked up" on him being PR

[TwoFace]

What PR tells were in Dave's ISO?

Pretty much how every other pr seems to play. Not as helpful as they should be, not scum hunting like they should be, kinda laying low as best as they can

[gerryoat]

What PR tells were in Dave's ISO?

Pretty much how every other pr seems to play. Not as helpful as they should be, not scum hunting like they should be, kinda laying low as best as they can

bullshit

[gerryoat]

Also Twofaced just admitted to PR hunting Day 1 and not scumhunting lol

[TwoFace]

Go away troll. Stop misrepping me

[Gamma Emerald]

I think these two might be town but I'm not sure yet
I may do a VCA (day 1 only)

[havingfitz]

Spoiler: JarJarDrinks ISO

JJD (147 posts)

ISO 0-1 - nada
ISO 2-3 - serious vote IMO on Gear for "fake-ass posting." Questions his vote on 2Face.
ISO 5-7 - Unvotes and agrees with Gear's point on voting 2Face. Also pro-Dave a bit.
ISO 8 - Discredits Gear's reason for townreading keyen.
ISO 9 - Shades 2Face a little. I agree with his thoughts.
ISO 10 - Agrees with Rask that keyen could be scum.
-ISO 11 - Answers on Grey's behalf to a question by Tywin.
ISO 12-13 - Questioning Grey's vote on him and Dave.
ISO 15 - Disagrees w/ 2Face on merit of a Vij vote on someone. Agrees with Vij while 2Face does not.
ISO 16 - Shades gerry for self meta'ing.
ISO 18 - Seems to be calling the Gear vote that he called "fake ass scumhunting" serious and legitimate.
ISO 19-20 - Shades keyen for not paying attention etc.
ISO 21 - Agrees w/ Tywin that early keyen wagon was for "no good reason". In contrast to recent keyen scumminess. However - during the early keyen wagon that had "no good reason" JJD agreed that keyen could be scum and discredited Gear's defense of keyen. Seems a little contradictive.
ISO 22 - Has Rask as a strong town read.
ISO 25 - Tywin is a townread.
ISO 28 - Naked keyen vote.
ISO 32 - A little back and forth w/ gerry due to reading to votes on him differently.
ISO 33 - Gives Dave crap (rightfully so).
ISO 34 - Rask is town because he suspects keyen (as does JJD) and he questioned Vij's tr on keyen. Also because Rask questioned Kyouko about Gear's 2Face vote.
ISO 36-37 - Some back and forth with keyen about comments towards Vij. Understandable.
ISO 38 - Tells keyen he (JJD) has given reasons for scumreading him (keyen). Note...I don't see the reasons unless they are "What Rask said." Not a direct quote btw.
ISO 41 - Asks Gamma for specifics on scumreading him (JJD).
ISO 42 - Votes Gamma reasons to follow.
ISO 43-46 - Gives reasoning for voting Gamma. Not terrible.
ISO 49 - Agrees with Rask that keyen, Dave and Gamma are all good votes.
ISO 53 - Back on his Gamma case. JJD looks to see why Gamma's read could have changed from Post 99 to Post 252 but does so by looking at all his (JJD) posts after 252....not the one between Gamma's 99 and 252. Not sure how that even makes sense.
ISO 55 - Calls keyen vote on 2Face bad.
ISO 62 - Agrees with 2Face that keyen wagon is stale because scum don't support it.
ISO 63 - Tells 2Face he isn't voting keyen because Gamma is probably scum too.
ISO 65-71 - A little tif with Grey regarding Gamma's alignment.
ISO 72-76 - Some growing suspicions towards Grey culminating in a vote.
ISO 80 - Says probably wrong on Gamma read since Gamma and Grey aren't buddies and JDD is SRing Grey now.
ISO 82 - says scum team is Grey/keyen/Dave. Doesn't win anything for 1/3.
ISO 86 - Says he (JJD) disagrees with Tywins 2Face read despite reading Tywin as town.
ISO 85-89 - Back and forth with Grey.
ISO 91-92 - UNvotes Grey due to claim despite not believing it. Votes keyen to L-3 and says he will put a case together (but what about ISO 38?)
ISO 93-94 - Provides opposing viewpoint to Tywin's keyen wagon concerns.
ISO 95-96 - Question for JJD...why did your top suspect (Grey) hopping on to keyen not give you 2nd thoughts about joining him (Grey) on the keyen wagon?
ISO 106 - Let's everyone know he would still be willing to vote Grey despite his claim. ~wifom
ISO 107 - Calls keyen sr list of 2Face/JJD/Rask so ugly.
ISO 112 - 2Face/Rask and Tywin are strong townreads. Grey or Gamma are scum but not both.
End of D1

ISO 117 - Immediate Grey vote.
ISO 118 - Shades 2Face a little and downgrades him to a slight town read.
End of D2

ISO 121 - Asks gerry who he would lynch.
ISO 122 - Asks LUV who he would lynch.
ISO 124 - Who do everyone not named 2Face or Gamma want to lynch? Question to JJD...why don't you care what 2Face and Gamma think?
ISO 125 - Calls 2Face ridiculous for voting Gamma.
ISO 128 - Would consider voting LUV for opportunistic hop on Gamma.
ISO 130-131 - Convinced by 2Face that Gamma is probbaly sk instead of vig. Would vote Gamma.
ISO 138 - says 2Face is making sense that gerry is scum and Gamma is SK.
ISO 143 - Not liking my comment that 2 scum are in gerry, 2Face and JJD.
ISO 144 - Says gerry makes sense but 2Face and JJD should not be considered scum by anyone.
ISO 145-146 - We should lynch GreyICE....-Grey- and Gear ignored each other the entire game.
ISO 147 - 2Face is safe today because he is active and even though he could be scum...less active people make better wagons.
ISO 148 - @JJD....so you are saying it is out of the realm of possibility that gerrry and 2Face are scum and you are town? Which is an option my POE points to.
ISO 149 - Not a fan of my ISOs lol...
ISO 150-151 - Votes me and is comfortable with the vote based on an ISO of Vij and I. No reasons given but he's ok with it.

Summary...

JarJar comes across as town for the most part. Aside fron the fact he's too defensive considering I only lumped him into a group off possibilities based on incomplete ISOs.

As for my ISO's..they are what they are. It's how I do them regardles of my alignment. Scum in most cases aren't going to hand you their alignment on a silver platter. And town aren't trying to do scummy shit on purpose. So when I read through an ISO I get a town or scum feel from certain posts and when my ISO is over...it's usually a consolidation of those feels that directs me. You came up with a shitload of reasons why keyen was scum. How'd that work out for you? Check out your ISO 82. Not everyone gets it right and not everyone who votes or says you are possibly scum are scum. You need thicker skin.

Right now I would say from town to scum my reads are JJD-LUV................GreyICE and gerry. With 2Face tbd.

Speaking of 2Face....JJD, can you elaborate on why he is a townread outside of the fact he posts a lot?

[TwoFace]

I think these two might be town but I'm not sure yet
I may do a VCA (day 1 only)

can you explain why you think gerry is town

[TwoFace]

Aside fron the fact he's too defensive

people still think defensiveness is bad/scummy?

[JarJarDrinks]

Aside fron the fact he's too defensive

people still think defensiveness is bad/scummy?

not to mention that I wasn't being defensive. I was just calling his reads shit.

[JarJarDrinks]

Speaking of 2Face....JJD, can you elaborate on why he is a townread outside of the fact he posts a lot?

And this is a misrep. I never said or implied that 2F is a TR cause he posts alot.

Spoiler:

he's one of the few people that appears to be trying to find scum and is paying attention to the game.

[TwoFace]

I know. That's why he's probably scum. Stalling with these isos that aren't useful and prevents him from interacting and scum hunting.

Isos can be easily twisted as scum to fit a narrative. It's one of the easiest ways to manipulate people as scum.

Nobody's even really reading or using his isos.

[TwoFace]

Speaking of 2Face....JJD, can you elaborate on why he is a townread outside of the fact he posts a lot?

And this is a misrep. I never said or implied that 2F is a TR cause he posts alot.

Spoiler:

he's one of the few people that appears to be trying to find scum and is paying attention to the game.

coming from somebody who just iso'd you, that was a weird question/misrep. He should have seen that

[gerryoat]

Havingfitz, I don't see anything from your ISO that would lead you to believe to make me your top scumread. Especially when I was your TR

[havingfitz]

Thought I had posted this earlier this morning but apparently not.

@2face...wrt 1109...what does whether you think defensiveness is good or bad matter? It's not affecting my read on JJD. I only mention it
because his reaction towards me for just lumping him in a pool of scum candidates seemed excessive given he had barely mentioned Vij/me in
this game, certainly not as a suspect. This was on top of his reaction to Gamma voting him. An immediate vote in return on Gamma
with reasoning that had some merit but was a fail to elimate/discredit. (See my comments on his ISO 53).

@JJD...wrt 1110...I disagree...see comments above. That someone who is unsure of your alignment would not rule you out as scum without a
closer look and get the incredulous reaction you are giving is totally defensive on your part. I mean...if you are so incredibly obviously
town...why are you still here?

@JJD...wrt 1111...That's how I interpreted your town read on 2Face. It's not a misrep. When I see "appear to be trying" in reference to
the most active player in the game in contrast to "just sitting around" in reference to the players you have been up for voting
today: the Gear slot, LUV and now me who are all the least active posters. In fact, you've basically expressed a willingness today to
lynch anyone not named 2Face. If you are town how is that the only person you aren't willing to vote after 44+ pages is your "slight town
lean?"

[havingfitz]

Havingfitz, I don't see anything from your ISO that would lead you to believe to make me your top scumread. Especially when I was your TR

It's more of a poe thing than anything in particular that you did wrong. Though one thing that does come to mind without looking back over my ISO of you that I know I did/do not care for was the way you handled the Grey lynch and subsequent explanation. After reading LUV, Gear and JJD I found them more town than you.

I will be posting my TwoFace ISO thoughts tomorrow morning ...I'm done but I still need to summarize. I will say he is still a suspect for me which is problematic for my other reads because I don't see the two of you being scum together. Which might bump someone else ahead of one of you. I also want to look over Grey's ISO.

Is anyone else doing anything btw? LUV? Gamma...I know you are not mafia at least...any thoughts on who is? Where did GreyICE go?

[Gamma Emerald]

If JJD, TF, and gerry are not mafia (a lock town + 2 TRs), that leaves GreyICE/fitz/LUV.

[eagerSnake]

Prodding GreyICE.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Doesn't look like this is going to happen today.

UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

[TwoFace]

does whether you think defensiveness is good or bad matter? It's not affecting my read on JJD. I only mention it

Uh your post clearly indicates your read is affected by it though.

JarJar comes across as town for the most part. Aside fron the fact he's too defensive

This implies if he wasn't defensive he'd be a stronger town read.

[TwoFace]

v/la through the weekend

[havingfitz]

Spoiler: TwoFace ISO

2f (212 posts)

ISO 0-4 - 2 RVS votes.
ISO 5 - Naked "wheeee" vote on keyen.
ISO 9 - Disputes Gear's comparison to town!keyen "OMGUSing everyone who suspected him."
ISO 10 - confronts keyen about RVS question
ISO 11 - more disputing Gear's keyen tr.
ISO 12 - disagrees with JJD assessment towards Gear+ and him- (2F).
ISO 13-14 - an exchange with Tywin on RVS and a little self meta....followed by approval of Tywin comments disparaging self-meta.
ISO 15 - Questions Gamma town reads on JJD and Gear.
ISO 16 - disputes JJD assessment of his (2f) vote on keyen as not being casual.
ISO 17 - Questions Grey on his vote for JJD.
ISO 18 - An exchange that I think is on the benefits of RVS wagons.
ISO 19 - Agrees with Grey's reason for voting JJD.
ISO 20-21 - Says to keep an eye on Vij for his terrible vote on gerry.
ISO 22 - JJD thinks Vij vote on gerry is fine and 2F responds with "ok"

ISO 24 - Says keyen is a good lynch and that "sometimes rushing isn't so bad."

ISO 25 - If keyen flips scum keep an eye on Tywin.

ISO 26 - Questions how JJD could have a strong townread on Rask this early (at post 181) in the game. How can you have enough of a scum read on keyen to push your opportunistic vote on him towards a rushed lynch this early?

ISO 27 - Repeats Tywin scum if keyen scum comment.
ISO 35 - Defends his earlier Tywin comments to concerns raised by Tywin. Finishes with calling Tywin's post odd.
ISO 36 - Calls keyens reads half-assed. Though he got all of his town reads right (assuming Gamma is a vig as I think is probably the case).
ISO 37 - Disputes gerry town read on keyen and mentioned running to mod regarding to ongoing game comments.
ISO 38 - Defends his play against Tywin concerns.
ISO 39 - Disagrees with Vij comment towards him.
ISO 40 - Agrees with Rask and states JJD seems very town (at post 329)
ISO 41 - Has tiff with Tywin due to suspicions.

Uses inaccurate quote (post 124) to misrep Tywin who was clearly referring to post 180.

ISO 42 - Tywin has dropped down due to lies (Tywin never said).

ISO 43 - Agree with Gamma response to Grey that Tywin's focus is off.
ISO 44 - Pushes keyen (L-5) wagon first.
ISO 46 - Says Dave is null.
ISO 47 - Disputes Kyouko's defense of Tywin and keyen. Refers to proof he gave (with the wrong quotes mentioned above).

ISO 48 - Tells keyen his early vote may have been opportunistic.....2Face only has the one vote on keyen. He kept his keyen vote there all of D1.

ISO 49 - Tells keyen his reaction to being put at L-2 on page 2 of the game is why 2f subsequently has maintained his vote which he has said could be considered opportunistic.

ISO 50 - Admits his case on keyen is weak and that's why he isn't pushing it but there are no better options. I would add here that while 2f says he isn't pushing keyens case....that seems to be all he has focused on up to this point other than very minor shading towards Tywin.

ISO 53-55 - A little tiff with Tywin who thinks 2f attacked him.
ISO 57 - Shows he is not paying attention to the dispute between Gamma and JDD on changing reads. Completely missed it despite it flaring up at least twice.
ISO 59 - States he is not worse than JJD to keyen and dismisses keyen suspicions towards him as ~omgus.
ISO 60 - Defends Dave to Rask.
ISO 61 - Dave is a "useless townie" and 2f would not support a PL. Also makes continued weak push on keyen's "stale wagon."
ISO 62 - Calls JDD to task for voting Gamma despite agreeing with the keyen "stale wagon" assessment. Doesn't know why JDD suspects Gamma despite it being a fairly well laid out subject.
ISO 66 - Agrees with Grey that Gamma is town.
ISO 67 - Agrees with JDD that Grey was defending Tywin prior to voting him.
ISO 68 - Tiff with Tywin...mentions lie he never proved Tywin committed.
ISO 69 - Tells JJD that Grey, Dave and keyen aren't the scum team.
ISO 70-71 - Asks JJD how Tywin can be a townread. Questions any pro-town content by Tywin and says he lied again.
ISO 72 - Tells Vij his scum reads (JJD/TwoFace/Dave) are the worst reads ever. Hindsight: Only 1 has been shown to be wrong.

ISO 73 - Gets in heated tiff with Tywin about lie Tywin never told and end result is Tywin is a liar and keyen is a mafia PR. WTF? I would note that the Grey wagon is gaining traction at this point and 2f has not mentioned it. In fact he has defended Grey as of ISO 69 and made little mention of him otherwise.

ISO 76 - Asks Rask if we

can just lynch keyen because no one else interests him (@537).

Keyen only has 1 vote at this point whereas Grey is up to 3 and JJD and Dave are at 2?
ISO 77 - States Dave is useless but not scummy because of perception. Every game as 1 or 2 useless players according to 2f. Not sure how that excludes them from being suspects.
ISO 81 - Asks keyen why he left Grey off his post 222 reads list. This when Grey has reached 4 votes. No mention of that by 2f.
ISO 83 - If keyen isn't going to happen

2f would be good with a Grey lynch.

Grey is at L-2 at this point @577 and makes his claim in Post 583.

No previous suspicions towards Grey.

ISO 84 - Immediately after Grey's claim (2 posts later) it's back to pushing the keyen wagon. And the very next post is Grey voting keyen to L-5.

ISO 85-86 - Doesn't believe Grey claim but won't lynch PR claims on D1.
ISO 87 - Expresses interest (shade?) on Vij requesting replacement.
ISO 88 - Asks Gamma who he would prefer to lynch (instead of keyen) while Gamma has his vote on JJD.

Not paying attention again.

ISO 89 - Tells Gamma that JJD reads scum to him given that Grey is probably scum. ?????? At this point in the game Grey is voting 2f's top suspect keyen and at not time earlier in the game has 2f given any hint or reasoning for thinking Grey is scum.
ISO 91-93 - Calls keyen scum and Dave lynchbait/PL
96 - continues to suspect keyen for his immediate discrediting efforts following 2Fs opportunistic vote on keyen on page 2. Smh
ISO 97 - crap points against keyen.
ISO 99 - Tells keyen only 3 people are voting him, when it's actually 4, and that he shouldn't worry and just scumhunt.
ISO 102 - Agrees with JJD's assessment of the Grey claim and keyen wagon.
ISO 103 - Working hard to get the keyen lynch through.
ISO 104 - Puts a Grey/keyen/LUV scum team possibility out there.

ISO 107 - Calls Grey caught scum (how so?)

ISO 108 - Claims that keyen just claimed scum. Hyperbole that never occurred of course.
ISO 109 - Tells keyen to stfu.
ISO 111 - Calls Gamma stupid for saying 2f is confirmed scum for not unvoting keyen.
ISO 113 - Discrediting my participation in the game after only 3 posts (I'm here, Hi, Unvote). Nice.
ISO 114 - Applauds potentially catching 2 scum D1.

End of D1

ISO 117 - Immediate vote on Grey
ISO 118 - Defends on JJD comments regarding 2f not wanting to lynch Grey D1. 2f acknowledges his focus was on keyen.
ISO 120 - Discredits LUV a bit for saying he (LUV) didn't see why anyone believed the Grey claim. Accuses him of not reading which is funny given his (2F) lack of awareness on the JJD/Gamma activities D1.
ISO 121 - Calls the vig a dumb ass. Not sure how getting rid of useless null town is a bad move.

ISO 122 - Responds to Kyouko asking the vig to shoot "gear or havingfitz, pref gear" by

encouraging the vig/sk to preferably shoot me instead of gear.

ISO 125 - Says Dave was obviously not scum. 2f's reads are much better with hindsight.
ISO 126 - How does Grey going after Tywin lessen the fact he was very early on Grey's case? Shades Tywin a bit saying neither he nor Grey were on the other very hard.

ISO 127 - Calls Tywin's 180 on keyen suspicious. Not sure how with all the extensive lobbying for the keyen lynch that 2f did.

ISO 128 - Disagrees with Kyouko on level of Dave scumminess.
ISO 129 - States scum try to appear town and he's never seen scum win by being useless.
ISO 130 - Some nice wifom by 2f on why 2f isn't scum.

ISO 131 - Probably 1 more scum on keyen wagon. Great....who is it? You or JJD?

End of D2

ISO 133 - Points out possible crumb by Tywin on Gear.
ISO 135 - Gives gerry crap about his hammer reasoning.
ISO 136 - Votes Gear and asks him to please post content and stop flying under the radar.
ISO 140 - Says he would vote gerry or gear today...

and maybe JarJar?

ISO 142 - Votes Gamma after the vig claim. Doesn't believe the claim.
ISO 144 - Makes decent post wrt Gamma. nai fmpov
ISO 147 - changes read on JJD based on D1 w/ Grey. Gear/gerry and Vijmoi.
ISO 151 - Asks Gamma why not shoot gear or Fitz instead of Kyouko.
ISO 153 - We should lynch gerry....for posts that look very similar to 2f comments on D1 wrt Grey.
ISO 156 - Votes gerry.
ISO 158 - Attacks me and my play style as useless after I include him in a group of a 4 player scumpool.
ISO 161 - Attacks gerry for quick hammer reasoning...says gerry is a liability as town. Nice.
ISO 162 - Scum are in Gear/gerry and fitz.
ISO 163 - gerry didn't refuse to vote Grey D1 any more than you did 2f. Calls gerry scum
ISO 165 - You did the exact thing you are accusing gerry of in this post. See ISO 83.
ISO 166 - How is gerry stalling? Wtf?
ISO 168 - Really thinks Vij replaced out because Grey was getting run up. What a nice imagination.
ISO 177 - gerry is still 2f's desired lynch. Would vote fitz.

Gear/GreyICE has fallen off the list.

ISO 178 - Gives me crap for not ruling out JJD (which I subsequently have) and for not considering Gear who has done nothing. So doing nothing = scum?
ISO 179 - Little discrediting of my opinion and repeat of JJD outrage.
ISO 180 - Why are you pm'ing the mod? WTH is that all about? And if I haven't ruled you out as a suspect up to this point you are most certainly a consideration.
ISO 181 - fu 2f
ISO 182 - Admits he almost always reads me as scum. As I am not always scum your scum reads on me are useless. Why is getting anyone to L-2 a concern wrt having a vig/sk in the game? Unless you plan on pushing a Gamma wagon today...it makes no difference whether we're at L-2 or 1 or lynch.
ISO 185 - @2f...what do you mean your "outed SR on gerry came before you did the ISO and voted him?"
ISO 186 - thin skinned 2f rantings....carry on....
ISO 188 - lol at 2f telling anyone to work on their attitude. Omg that's good :D1
ISO 189-201 - Lots of gerry bashing up to gerry is the right lynch today and more.
ISO 205 - the same could be said for you and keyen D1.

Summary...

TwoFace was right! I suspect him the most. All of the lines in his ISO that I find suspect are highlighted in red or just black.

In short...I suspect TwoFace for tunneling keyen all D1 despite acknowledging that his vote on keyen was opportunistic and that his case on him was weak. That there were no better alternatives to keyen despite a solid effort by JJD towards Gamma; and Tywin, who he had prior to this claimed to have caught in a lie. Wouldn't catching someone in a lie warrant a vote to L-4 more than someone whose case you said was weak and only at L-5?

Additionally I just find him almost completely ignorant of Grey's existence until Grey is at L-2. Then all of a sudden he is ok with lynching Grey. But wait! A claim! Let's just stick with the weak opportunistic keyen wagon. Followed immediately by a vote on the weak opportunistic keyen wagon by Grey... who you are also ok lynching... whose claim you do not believe and you claim is caught scum? So why not pass on keyen and go for the sure thing...the caught scum whose claim you do not believe (i.e. Grey)? Or the liar (Tywin)?

I also do not think TwoFace and gerry would be a likely scum pairing. So gerry moves up a little on my town list. Gear/GreyICE take his place.

TwoFace or GreyICE are the only two I will vote today.

VOTE: TwoFace

[TwoFace]

Hey mod. I Called it