Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Lowell]

VOTE: iron

[Lowell]

VOTE: knighty

This guy is whiteknighting the hell out of alpaca.

also nero is town.

[Lowell]

Iron is town for LOLHAMMER threat, even if knighty is a better choice.

If alp is town, either knighy or penguin (both?) is trying to pocket him.

[Lowell]

Town
1. LmkGuy
5. PenguinPower
6. Ironstove
12. Knighty Knight

Null
2. Saru
4. karnos
7. malpascp
9. Lowell
11. Alpaca Alpaca
13. Tracer

Scum
3. Nero Cain
8. aronagrundy
10. Cmitc1

Nulls haven't said enough to make me suspicious, towns are myself and people I believe to have good evidence/ arguments with seemingly minimal bias, scum are people I beleive to act suspicious and have sound arguments against them.

VOTE: Arona Grundy

Where was this read, or vote, before others started talking about aron? Aron reads more newbtown than flailing scum to me, and this vote looks opportunistic. Like he needs sanction from others.

[Lowell]

From the top:

9, 12, 17- tracer tries too hard [-, tryhard]
23- lmk, too [-, tryhard]
30s- nero enters, swinging [+, constructive attitude, given fluff that precedes it]
43- kk aggressively defends alpaca, criticizes nero [-, where does this come from? why is alpaca townread already?]
50- karnos fake townslips [-, tryhard]
52- aron votes kk, equivocates [-, don't like his "we need to get out of rvs" justification here. own the vote, or don't vote]
60- iron promises LOLHAMMER [+, like the boldness]
67- PP moves vote away from alpaca, down from L-1
76- PP votes saru [?, no justification, reads as throw-away vote]
93- nero explains case on alpaca, notes iron's possible scumslip
101- aron talks about nothing [-, again]
157- lmk criticizes thread [-, too much coaching, emoticons, and trying to be arbiter of what is and isn't useful]
201- iron wants to lynch aron or saru, posts text wall [+, I like the thought, though I'm not really seeing the conclusive evidence he does]
221- cmitc has no scumreads [-]
236- iron pushes tracer lynch
248- aron votes kk, more or less admits it's OMGUS [-]
251- kk gives full scumlist [-, it's fine, I guess, if a little too polished. Also, all scumreads are dependent on OTHER scumreads panning out]
301- tracer leads w/ 4 votes, alpaca next w/ 3

Towns

nero

. He's been aggressive throughout, and gets points in particular for calling out knighty's defense of alpaca and for pointing out iron's inconsistancies.

karnos

. This one is more gut. There's not a ton to go on but I like karnos, particularly when viewed in ISO.

alpaca

. He basically handled the early pressure fine, and though his posts aren't particularly illuminating, his inquisitiveness reads townish to me. Also, see below, I'm pretty sure he's being whiteknighted.

Null Megaposters

iron

. Reading through the game I mostly consider him a positive force. Threatening to hammer alpaca early I thought was a good move to get the game moving, and several other times he's led, or has tried to lead, new wagons. But Nero pointed out iron's strange reversal in 159, which I tend to agree with. Why would iron laugh off someone who wanted to lynch alpaca if he himself had threatened to hammer. What could have changed?

Null Lurkers

malap

, no comment.

saru

, likewise.

Null Newbs

tracer

, espeically at the beginning, strikes me as a little too giddy. I've seen newbtown do this, but I've also seen scum do this as an attempt to be extra sociable and win friends.

aron

. Similar, though he's more active. There's way too much "let's talk about how RVS works, let's talk about the nature of jokes, let's talk about random unrelated thing" for my liking, but I can't decide whether this is a confused newb or an intentional diverting scum.

scums

LmkGuy

. In ISO, he looks terrible. Of his 14 posts, the first 12 are pure fluff, with some specifically, actively trying to derail the game back to RVS or some other non-threatening null state. 157 in particular bothers me. He's trying to play the "adult in the room" angle a little to hard and looking to slide by unnoticed. Find me a post where he attacks anyone, in any meaningful sense (that was rhetorical. there is none) The best he can muster is a post where he half-assedly votes iron, then immediately equivocates with a "hopefully this can get him playing a bit more seriously." Look in the mirror, chief. When the game gets serious, LmkGuy lurks. When he can jump in with a quip or an upbeat emoticon, he pounces.

knighty

. I've mentioned some of this already. His immediate and repeated defense of alpaca, starting in post 43, makes no sense, unless (a) he's protecting a buddy, or (b) he's trying to pocket an imperiled town on the verge of mislynch. I suspect it's the latter, only because I doubt scumbuddies would defend each other THAT obviously, but in either scenario knighy is scum. When he's called on this, he backs down in post 90, saying he's "just trying to point things out." This is a weak retreat: he got caught and he's trying to get out of trouble. Even 251 reads overpolished and contrived.

cmit

. I'm put off by his refusal to list any reads, even as late as post 221. I don't think he's newbtown, I think he's newbscum playing the unfrozen caveman lawyer defense.

penguin

. Reads similar to LmkGuy, but less so. He spent a lot of time early trying to make jokes and prove his winning personality. He's improved, slightly, perhaps, but still seems to post only when there's a light moment he can pounce on. I also don't like how he egged iron on to hammer alpaca early, only to more or less immediately say how the threat wasn't serious.

Lmk and knighty are my preferences. No one seems to want to join knighty, so let's try this.

VOTE: LmkGuy

[Lowell]

prod receive. my home internet is garbage. will try this again on monday.

[Lowell]

I really have lost track of this game, so I am just going to concentrate on the last few pages. I wont let myself fall behind again and if there is anything that you want me to respond to that has already occurred let me know. For now I will be concentrating on page 14-now.

From the people that have been active during those pages, I can see why there are current scum reads on knight and Karnos. Both players have gotten extremely defensive whenever they have been pushed,

For knight, post 326 screams newb scum to me. Trying to say 'look at me! I'm doing stuff!'. After reading this post and going through his ISO, I just get a feeling of fakeness from his posts. Now I get that I am really not one to talk right now, but they try to seem like they are actively contributing, but there is just something off about his posts. I remember when I got my first game as scum and a lot of his posts are the same kinds of thoughts/posts that I made during that scum game. A lot of his reads contain words like 'maybe' or his opinion can be easily swayed either way, leaving options open for changing his scum/town reads as he needs.

As for Karnos, he is playing a scum recklessly or he is a frustrated town member. I am not too sure which side of the fence he lands on, based on reading his ISO. I am not super convinced of the meta-scum argument that saru is basing his read off, but his reaction to said read is what interests me the most. It seems like he is getting extremely worked up over this and that is why I have my read on him as either frustrated townie or overconfident scum.

Anyway, if I find anything else interesting (and time) before bed, I'll do another post, but for now, I will leave with a

VOTE: KnightyKnight

and a promise to keep up to date and posting my thoughts on whatever happens from here.

So you have two scumreads, and you're voting the one with no votes rather than the one with an existing wagon? And the reason the one you're voting for gets your vote is because he's faux-contributing?

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

[Lowell]

thor looks better than karnos in this exchange, but gun to my head I think it's town v town.

[Lowell]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

[Lowell]

Wait, so you think Karnos is town?

Recent exchanges notwithstanding, yes, I do.

[Lowell]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

Why would scum scared of sticking their necks out note a scumread?
Wouldn't the appropriate play be a soft white knight? Like 'I'm not sure about the Karnos case' or something like that?

This is effectively what he's doing, right? That's my point. He's not on the wagon but he's saying he supports it. He's trying to hedge.

[Lowell]

Lmk and knighty are attacking each other for doing the exact same thing. My work here is done.

Also there's some major derailing going on from aron. 381 is the post that catches your eye several pages later? Why? It's... fine, I guess? But it causes you to change the vote you just made? (presumably also after having seen epic post 381)

There's enough people at various times trying to passive-aggressively derail this karnos wagon that it's probably right. At least some of them must be protecting a buddy.

VOTE: karnos

[Lowell]

I guess mod really wants me to be voting lmk. That's fine, I guess.

[Lowell]

I find it scummy as hell when someone who has been coasting for weeks suddenly gets a little pressure then decides to quit. Esp when others follow that with "oh too bad, I was super ready to jump on that wagon you guyz"

VOTE: knighty

I'm confident there's at least one scum in the basicially indistinguishable pair of lmk/knighy. This well-timed quit fits with what I would expect this type of player to do when under pressure. So, sorry whoever is replacing, you got a bum deal.

[Lowell]

So after reading up I have to say I think Lmk is scum, he can sir back and watch the theatre of others sink each other while he kicks back and doesnt do anything

VOTE: Lmk

Pedit: Lowell what do you think of the people saying yout 180 was trash

My 180 on who? Doesn't matter, I defend it blindly.

[Lowell]

I feel like we have a bird in hand with knighty or lmk. So I'm not sure I see the appeal of saru or thor wagons. saru in particular I mostly just see as a lurker.

[Lowell]

Why do you think the Knighty slot is town?

I have not necessarily felt he's mafia more so than the Thor/Saru/Aron slots so I'd rather see them go first.

It's bewildering to me how your scumlist doesn't have knighty OR lmk. Why even have a list?

[Lowell]

VOTE: saru

I don't know how we got here, but fine. There's about three or four others I'd rather lynch but I'm not nolynching to protect a null lurker read.

[Lowell]

VOTE: saru

I don't have a strong case-based reason here, but I do have a strong feeling that the way that day ended was no accident. I recall putting saru to L-1 to avoid a no lynch, then coming back to find some random rube dead.

[Lowell]

I tend to think FA's obstinance is a town-tell and I don't really see the utility in him claiming at this point. If penguin thinks his claim would prove something I'd like to hear it.

@Nero, the case on saru is that we nearly lynched him yesterday as a compromise candidate, only to have a new wagon form out of nowhere on a complete lurker at the last minute. At no point during the day prior to that did I see any wagon form that fast. I admit it's circumstantial but it's also legit. Basically, what about saru's D1 play would create the urgency with which his wagon was derailed unless scum was doing it for some reason.

[Lowell]

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

Also, this from thor about saru makes me think thor is one of his buddies. Not particularly subtle deflection. Looks like they can't decided whether to bus each other.

[Lowell]

@Saru- As the "leading wagon" you had one vote. Now you have two. Yesterday I did you far worse. That all of a sudden this bothers you says more about you than me.

Also stuff like this: "I'm praying for this town that you're scum, because if you're town and using this kind of reasoning, then so help us god," I hate more than anything. If you're town, vote who you think is scum, don't coach. At best this is a deflection so that if you get your way, and I'm lynched, you can say "oh, well, he was a terrible player anyway, so good riddance." If you lynch a "bad" player who flips town, that's your fault, not theirs.

[Lowell]

I'm back. Prodge, if that's necessary. I'd still like to see saru or lmk, but really I haven't been paying attention since the site went down. Will catch up.

[Lowell]

Is there a case on LMK outside of the lurk?

no unless you want to buy into the theory that he's an Alpaca buddy b/c he kinda lightheartedly embraced it and left himself some leeway to bus if needed.

After a quick scan of Alpaca's ISO there isn't too much to go off. He was reasonably active at the start of the game, but dies off (presumably due to mid terms). He really hasn't posted too much, but he asks a lot of questions, without answering much himself, and also gives a lot of blanket statements.

I'm hesitant to call this scummy behaviour, but it does tend to lean that way imo. I've decided his early game play is enough to carry him through for now. It's hard to get a full read on him as he hasn't really been posting a lot of content since he started mid terms. Maybe when he gets back and starts posting I will reconsider a vote, based on his play.

Still not caught up, but this caught my eye. Literally the same page Nero (sort of) calls out lmk for his interaction with alpaca, lmk posts this. Since lmk complains there's no case on him, here it is again. He lurks, then when he does post he refuses to take a stand on anything he can't immediately back away from. This reads as coaching, trying to coax alpaca back into the game now that his name is mentioned again. Or, at very least, setting up a safe vote for himself on someone who won't fight back in case he needs it.

I could easily see an lmk/alapaca pair. My only reservation being that they're BOTH such lurkers that it's hard to imagine them orchestrating a mislynch on D1.

Going to go back and look at D1 saru wagon dissolving into mal wagon next. I think it's an either/or situation though. Either this was a scumled derailment of saru-scum wagon or this lmk/alpaca lurker-alliance. But probably not both.

VOTE: lmk

[Lowell]

Damn, prodded. Thought I was on top of this game.

I like bji's entry, good energy. Even if he can't even muster an opinion about me. I also like Nero of late and agree with 1035. Iron bears some responsibility for the quick unvote/vote mal fest that ended D1. If iron were some random lurker it might be forgiveable but he plays like someone willing to engage in arguments--except this one I guess.

[Lowell]

Read back from near the end of D1, and jesus LMK really needs to die. As the saru wagon was heating up (before the extension/switch to malp), he jumps in right as everyone is voting saru to derail by voting me (I had no votes). His reasoning was that as saru was a null read for me, I shouldn't lynch, and that makes me scummy. He does nothing else the rest of the day, makes no effort to get me or anyone else lynched (despite ostensibly thinking I'm scum and it being close to deadline), and makes no further comment even as several other people vote saru or malp with similarly lukewarm feelings. He deliberately derailed the saru wagon (then more or less let his case drop), but didn't lift a finger on the malp wagon. I don't recall any specific preference between malp and saru, so explain why town-lmk would do that.

Also I sort of like the explanation in 1038, and looking back iron's vote isn't as bad as I remembered.

[Lowell]

Just a reminder that saru is still scum. Also saru's latest interaction with aron looks like a distancing ploy. Still, lmk first.

[Lowell]

I liked his entry, he brought some good energy, particularly given Alpaca felt like such a null.

But that could just be activity bias. I've replaced in mid-game before and gotten town points bc by that point various rivalries have formed. So I'm not completely townreading him yet.

tl;dr-- basically looks town.

[Lowell]

Remind me, I'm a slow reader.

[Lowell]

Responding to unofficial prod.

@mod

, FYI, I normally don't have internet access on weekends. I'll do my best to check in, but I'd appreciate some flexibility on this.

To answer your second question: yes, I live in 1995.

[Lowell]

VOTE: saru

I don't have a strong case-based reason here, but I do have a strong feeling that the way that day ended was no accident. I recall putting saru to L-1 to avoid a no lynch, then coming back to find some random rube dead.

Oh god, if this isn't a scum vote...

Atleast you admit you don't have a case. But your feelings are unfounded and it's a bit strange how you went from calling me a "lurker null read"(which makes no sense) to voting me because my wagon dissipated. What happened to the 3 or 4 other lynches you mentioned in 681. Why not talk about them, or do they not exist?

Either you're ignoring the fact that I had claimed when people started to unvote(which would imply they believed the claim or felt comfortable with it) or you're ignoring the fact that votes shifted to malp quickly because a) he was an easy target to wagon on because b) there was almost no time left in the day, even after an extension and because c) he wasn't around to defend himself. Neither would suggest my wagon falling apart because I'm scum, as you seem to imply. In fact, IME, most scum wagons in the early-game fall apart before a claim, rather than after. Scum don't want to be pinned into a claim so early in the game and so most scum partners would try to derail it halfway through, even subtly. Basically no one in the game was trying to actively or subtly derail my wagon D1.

I saw the claim, but I don't understand what you think it means. You're saying your VT claim is so airtight that everyone just up and decided you must be town? To your points, I would say: (a) you were an even EASIER wagon since you were almost dead and claimed VT, (b) why move from a VT claim to an unknown lurker at the last minute?, and (c) who would have it in their interest to move to an unknown lurker over you (who can defend himself, as you say) at the last minute if you're town?

Basically, I don't see how the following narrative: "I almost got lynched right at deadline, claimed VT, then a powerwagon instantly formed on a lurker who can't defend himself" absolves you.

[Lowell]

I saw the claim, but I don't understand what you think it means. You're saying your VT claim is so airtight that everyone just up and decided you must be town? To your points, I would say: (a) you were an even EASIER wagon since you were almost dead and claimed VT, (b) why move from a VT claim to an unknown lurker at the last minute?, and (c) who would have it in their interest to move to an unknown lurker over you (who can defend himself, as you say) at the last minute if you're town?

Basically, I don't see how the following narrative: "I almost got lynched right at deadline, claimed VT, then a powerwagon instantly formed on a lurker who can't defend himself" absolves you.

You also haven't explained how it makes me scum, now have you?

Interestingly enough, it seems you yourself don't think that the wagon forming on the lurker was done by any potential scum partners, even though you imply this over and over. You're voting for LMK, someone who wasn't even on the wagon, when you should be voting for either me or anyone who WAS on the wagon, if you're so sure I'm scum who got away D1. Care to list the people on the malp wagon who wanted to protect me from being lynched? Because I haven't seen you actually do that, rather, you've tried to implicate me using other people's actions, while not listing those people.

You also dodged my point about how no one really came to my defense while my wagon was forming. Why would my partners allow me to claim D1 (on top of that a VT claim, which is stupid for scum) instead of just offering even a LITTLE bit of resistance? Again, last thing scum wants is being pinned into a claim D1.

Your scumpartners waited for you to claim so there would be a pretense for unvoting and/or starting a new wagon, is what I'm saying. And LMK did defend you by trying to derail your wagon by casting a naked vote for someone with no chance of being lynched at deadline (me). I made this point when casting the vote. Honestly you're not even trying at this point. The main point is you had a wagon with time running out, you claimed VT, which miraculously saved you and strung up a lurker. Even the way you were talking "well, I guess I'm about to die" and all that stuff looks in hindsight like a total put-on.

[Lowell]

This is inappropriate for this forum I'm sure. But woke up IRL tears this morning. Not the country I thought I lived in. Can't concentrate on this game right now.

[Lowell]

Yeah, fine. If mod needs to delete, whatever.

[Lowell]

I'll also hammer if scum-saru gets cold feet. FTR I still don't think Thor is scum though, would have been better to get saru or lmk today.

[Lowell]

I'll also hammer if scum-saru gets cold feet. FTR I still don't think Thor is scum though, would have been better to get saru or lmk today.

...Why the hell would you hammer a townread after announcement of a replace in?

If anything you would want to give a replacement time to interact with people before nightfall and a chance to see if the read on your replacement lines up.

That's literally the reason I'm waiting, to give you time to weigh in. I'm saying I'll hammer to avoid NL. This is.... obvious. If it's not Thor it's you, so I'll leave it to you to decide where my vote should go.

[Lowell]

Thank god lmk got replaced by an even worse player. Now maybe you rubes will listen and lynch productively.

[Lowell]

Lurking doesn't make me scum, and you know it. It does, however, make me an opportunistic target for those trying to look like they're trying. Like, hey, I don't know, saru and lmk.

[Lowell]

I'm out for the next few hours or so. I'll humor math and not LOLHAMMER, even though it's pretty much my favorite thing and it feels like math is stalling since there's no other lynch that's going to happen today. I'll check in before deadline if, surprise, surprise, math comes back after reading and gets cold feet.

[Lowell]

also saru is probably scum too for saying he'll hammer and promptly disappearing

No, I purposely chose not to hammer because I believed Thor's claim. Which I regret now.

Also, Lowell said he was going to hammer if I got cold feet, but never did. That pretty much confirms scum!Lowell to me. He's after Thor.
VOTE: Thor665

Yeah I just didn't make it back in time, thought I would but didn't. Though I will confess that when I saw the NL and claim, I believed it too. So tbh I probably wouldn't have hammered anyway.

Let's do this, saru. Your flailing officially begins.

[Lowell]

I didn't hammer because I didn't make it back in time. That's the unsatisfying truth. But it's dumb that math is pointing a finger at me when he SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR MORE TIME before I or anyone else hammered.

TBH I figured it wouldn't matter bc we had put enough pressure on math to hammer regardless of his alignment. I figured if math was town he'd hammer regardless, and if thor was town scum!math would do the standard "oh well, I don't know about this, but for teh sake of avoiding NL I'll hammer" type of posts. Like he (and is predecessor) generally do to avoid having to take any meaningful position.

To me the lack of hammer and thor's subsequent flip only confirms his scum. Esp now that we know there was an encryptor I'm sure they discussed what last-minute claim to make so that math could 'believe' it and avoid hammering.

VOTE: math

[Lowell]

I guess I don't know what an innocent child is if you have to ask to be confirmed. But since this is L-2,

UNVOTE:

[Lowell]

I want to vote saru here but the fact that I've been pushing on saru for three days and am still alive makes me think that's bad.

Going to relook at penguin, karnos, bj, and nero, probably in that order. I don't see iron as scum, I think that rant last page was genuine.

[Lowell]

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

My gut answer here is saru. But of course you knew I'd say that since I've been after saru for days and haven't had much to say about nero. So the analytical side of me is saying that this is an intentionally loaded quesiton and the actual answer is nero. Or, perhaps, karnos.

[Lowell]

I want to vote saru here but the fact that I've been pushing on saru for three days and am still alive makes me think that's bad.

Going to relook at penguin, karnos, bj, and nero, probably in that order. I don't see iron as scum, I think that rant last page was genuine.

No. Karnos or you should be lynched today for a coordinated attack I predicted crumbed warned about and explained in meta form.

Yeah this is dumb. I've led coordinated attacks as scum before but I've never had a coordinated scum attack that blew its load on the first three votes on a wagon.

[Lowell]

The more I look at this post the more I think karnos is setting me up to get punked on a fake choice. If we're talking karnos and nero I'd much prefer karnos. And I'd also prefer karnos not trying to butter me up with this shit. I'm also now pretty sure saru is town after all.

I'm still pretty sure scum are among the nero:lowell:mathblade:saru pool. Lowell, assuming for the moment you are town, and mathblade is indeed confirmed IC, between nero and saru which one is most obvious scum?

[Lowell]

I'm not going to vote, since I won't be online again until tomorrow morning.

[Lowell]

I'm here. Briefly, since I'm running to a meeting (and am old). I agree with Math's 1550 in response to penguin's "why would I do this" post, for the reasons he stated. After that we can sort it out, but I'm relatively sure iron and saru are town. I lean town on bji, and I'm not quite seeing the nero case yet. My guess is the other is Karnos. I'll check in on this once more this evening if I can, and then tomorrow.

VOTE: penguin

[Lowell]

Also I don't think we need a full claim from iron, fwiw. Feels like doing scum's job for them, whereas right now they have to guess. And if this is a scum gambit, who cares, he could as easily fakeclaim a whole role as a partial one.

[Lowell]

This is evolving for me, since I'm still getting used to the new reality of saru being probable town.

Penguin
Karnos
bj
nero
saru
iron

I still think math's case on penguin nails it, and I don't see anything he's done in response as town. Even if you buy his argument that the aron death was random, his attitude change today has been a 180. He looks like "thought he got away with it floating by being nice" scum.

[Lowell]

Also I don't understand those voting nero if you buy that the aron kill was intentional. Either karnos or penguin or both are scum. If that's true, worst situation we lynch both and one is town and we'll be down to one scum at lylo. Why throw that off by lynching nero first? Even if you think he's scum?

[Lowell]

prodge, weekends are bad. still would prefer penguin, but will catch up.

[Lowell]

Catching up, from my last post. Part one.

Still with attacking Lowell. Then naked vote of Nero.

If you weren't the IC, I'd be seeing scum. That wasn't an attack on Lowell, that was a defense for me from his post. That wasn't a naked vote on Nero, I explained why I thought Nero was scum if karnos wasn't scum in previous posts. Please start reading before writing. It's the responsible thing to do.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. PP has changed into flailing PP, and this reads like "ugh the guy I wanted to mislynch is IC."

No - hint, those would be complex actions.

You're being dumb, and if you want to lose this game because your initial reason for me being scum was dumb, and you're going to be dense now, then I am - once again - lay it all on you for being dumb.

This too. Again I can't put my finger on it but iron's anger earlier felt very town, while this feels very not town.

Like there was absolutely no reason for Karnos to hammer Thor and cut off discussion like that. I think it was BJ that said something along the lines of "but we are able to buddy hunt today!" but its still dumb as we were guaranteed to lose at least one townie over the night and reduce the town brain power.

Karnos response that he was worried that town wouldn't lynch Thor doesn't mesh with reality.

NO ONE

was going to buy there being two town trackers in a mini. It was deff a bus.

This is a good summary of the karnos case. And the neighborizer kill still makes sense here. He's still a confirmed town, so why leave him alive to say so today? At worst, someone points to them and karnos and pp can do some distancing/bussing.

[Lowell]

You really think that both of the wagons are on scum? That's just dumb.

Question is, if one wagon is on scum and the other is on town, wouldn't a scum jump wagons to make sure the town player gets lynched?

Or do you also think both scum are voting on

the town wagon

?

Bold is mine. This looks like a scumslip, and karnos knows this is SvT.

That aron would recruit both scum into the PT and even if he did, why them having day chat when they've already had day chat for pretty much the whole game should implicate that they're both scum. I'm not really seeing a reason behind that.

The point isn't that they'd care about daychat, the point is that they'd care about having a confirmed town announce himself today. Esp if they planned on doing exactly what they're doing now, which is defending themselves by pointing out how 'obviously dumb' it would be to kill their neighborizer. It's a WIFOM defense.

[Lowell]

Also, thanks for waiting to catch up until after the lynch. Well played.

Just got home, chill out. Didn't see the lynch. So if nero flips town I'll be right.

[Lowell]

He was only a conf!town to those in the neighborhood.

Love me some twighlight Lowell. Pretty sure you're the last scum now.

On point 2, no, you're wrong. Good luck with that.

On point 1, do I not understand how neighborizers work? If aron had lived, and entered the day saying "hey guys, i'm conftown neighborizer, my buddies karnos and pp here can confirm. yay!" what would you have been able to do? Say no?

[Lowell]

at least one of you is scum. if nero flips scum it won't matter, but if not, this is why I don't understand why we didn't start with one of the two of you.

[Lowell]

karnos or penguin, please. at least one of the scum has to be in here. i don't see any way karnos and penguin aren't voting each other.

[Lowell]

^^^ there's zero chance at least one of you isn't scum, and setting up a LYLO mislynch on lowell is pretty much the quintessential scum move, so kudos on your gumption.

why not (virtually) vote penguin if you think he's scum? esp if it's clear that will be an easier majority to reach? this feels like a diversion.

[Lowell]

Thanksgiving is upon us but would like to hear who Lowell would think the partners are and pretty much everyone's thought on a scum team given Nero town.

I think there's a decent chance it's both karnos and penguin, but for 100% sure one or the other, with penguinscum still more likely based on yesterday's behavior. if one of those guys is town, I guess I'd take saruscum over bjsscum. honestly even beyond the "neighborizer ending up dead" thing, I can't envision the scumteam as saru/bj, since they've both been mostly lurky and I find it hard to belive such a lurky team would be orchestrating so many mislynches.

[Lowell]

To clean up my last post, my scum team is:

penguin
karnos/saru
bj

but honestly bj's lack of curiosity in that last post does him no favors.

and @karnos, yes, the aron kill. at the time there wasn't an IC claim so aron could easily have been the last verifaibly pro-town player. so scum would want him dead, even at the risk of looking suspicious for it (since, clearly, both you and penguin have been able to survive just fine since the kill anyway). beyond that, at this point I just don't see lurkerteam of bj/saru as viable. so at least one of you is scum anyway.

[Lowell]

and @karnos, yes, the aron kill. at the time there wasn't an IC claim so aron could easily have been the last verifaibly pro-town player. so scum would want him dead, even at the risk of looking suspicious for it (since, clearly, both you and penguin have been able to survive just fine since the kill anyway). beyond that, at this point I just don't see lurkerteam of bj/saru as viable. so at least one of you is scum anyway.

So...

You either haven't been paying attention, or you are lying- because it's already been well established that the Aron kill was submitted before I gained access to the neighborhood thread. So if that is your criteria for determining who is scum, you should just be saying penguin is scum.

Pretty lowell is scum.

Wait what was established now? I missed this. Was this confirmed by mod or are you and penguin saying this?

If true, then yes, it definitely changes my opinion on you. still makes penguin scum, but might put you below saru.

[Lowell]

Not sure how Lowell sees bji as a lurker. Said the same about me. The self-awareness game is weak with this one.

Glad you got this off your chest. see you again in a week or so.

[Lowell]

Lowell find me a town and a scum game of yours.

It's better that I don't do this because (a) it's dumb, and (b) you'll accuse me of putting my finger on the scale.

I've been in about a billion games. A few since I returned a few months ago, many many a few years before that. wiki me and take your pick.

[Lowell]

Lowell find me a town and a scum game of yours.

It's better that I don't do this because (a) it's dumb, and (b) you'll accuse me of putting my finger on the scale.

I've been in about a billion games. A few since I returned a few months ago, many many a few years before that. wiki me and take your pick.

I am done. Let's lynch Lowell. If he won't put effort towards a simple question or reading posts or anything then he needs to be lynched.

You seriously want me to cherry pick games here? I can do that, but you've got to be kidding me with this.

[Lowell]

VOTE: Lowell

math, if there's a time you plan to put your IC-status to good use, this would be it. penguin is playing you. this is embarassing.

[Lowell]

FYPOV you're just picking names out of a hat and seeing what sticks as a scumteam you can sell to math, so, sure, me/saru is fine. I guess I don't understand why, if that's the case, you're not pushing saru? On the offchance you're wrong about which combination it is. To me this saru/karnos or saru/lowell thing looks like distancing from saru, who you are sure is scum but are making no effort to lynch. starting to think penguin/saru is the team. still want penguin first just in case.

[Lowell]

Votecount 5.5

Lowell

(2) - PenguinPower, karnos

Not Voting

(4) - MathBlade, Lowell, bji, Saru

With

6

players eligible to vote, it’s

4

to lynch!

More confirmation that bj/saru is not the scumteam. I could be dead by now. Though I'm equally concerned with math's "oh if bj is scum he wins btw." There's five of us left--calling one autotown is risky.

VOTE: penguin

[Lowell]

I'm neither scum nor not interested. But if you need to hammer to assert your control and take us down with you, nothing I can do to stop you. I'm beginning to see how nero felt.

[Lowell]

I am willing to hear any counter evidence but right now it's looking pretty clearly like Lowell is the best lynch choice for today. The fact that he's barely even trying to defend himself speaks volumes I think. And his lurking until just after lynch yesterday was just so bad.

I'd like Math to post Math's final thoughts on myself, Penguin, Karnos, and Saru, and then for us to lynch Lowell, because I just can't see Math living to tomorrow given Math's IC status.

After Math posts Math's final thoughts, I would expect to see four votes on Lowell quickly follow. Doesn't really matter who makes them.

Yesterday's twilight posts were an honest mistake and I thought the day was still going. Why would I lurk the whole day and then come out gunning in twilight as scum? What's in it for me? Esp since I showed up to say "hey guys I'm pretty sure nero is town." I may be a rube, but that's next-level rubery. I'm not saying that alone absolves me of being a suspect, but you can't seriously sit there and say "ah ha we saw through his clever plan."

I've also made clear where I stand on this overall. In fact, I've been clear for two days. The two days that math has been "I gots hammers ya'll" and using them to hit town. penguin is scum. Fullstop. Someone killed the (at the time) only confirmed town in the game. His defense of "why would I do that, it looks so suspicious" is WIFOM as whoa, and, obviously, not true since he's already survived a day and now on the verge of a scum win. Of the other three I've been leaning karnos, but now might be coming around to saru or bj. In particular, someone needs to explain to me what bj has done that's "obvtown."

math, the fact that the game is stalling right now is on you. It's one of two things-- either you're crushing it, everyone agrees, and scum are giving up, or scum are laughing at your attempts to take charge. I have a hunch which.

[Lowell]

Yay bji! I was terrible, thor was meh, but bji carried the day.

In particular I had no idea what to do yesterday. Would have been nice to survive, but once everyone was clearly townreading bji I just though I kinda ... shouldn't mess with things too much? That's the charitable view. The non-charitable view is that I'm a terrible scum player, wasn't going to be able to save myself either way because of badness, and just lucked out having bji for a partner.