Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Lowell]

Lowell find me a town and a scum game of yours.

It's better that I don't do this because (a) it's dumb, and (b) you'll accuse me of putting my finger on the scale.

I've been in about a billion games. A few since I returned a few months ago, many many a few years before that. wiki me and take your pick.

I am done. Let's lynch Lowell. If he won't put effort towards a simple question or reading posts or anything then he needs to be lynched.

You seriously want me to cherry pick games here? I can do that, but you've got to be kidding me with this.

[Lowell]

VOTE: Lowell

math, if there's a time you plan to put your IC-status to good use, this would be it. penguin is playing you. this is embarassing.

[PenguinPower]

Nah. It's pretty simple. FMPOV it's you/Saru or Saru/karnos. Saru/karnos requires massive bussing from all scum throughout the game, with a risky D2 play. If they did that, gg. However, looking at the same end of day VCs, you and Saru make more sense. D1 you end up on Saru with only one other person/Saru on Thor with one other - weak bus - and town gets lynched with one scum on. D2 Saru ends up on you with only one other. No scum on Thor, push into no lynch. D3 doesn't matter since Thor was the obv!lynch. D4, both you and Saru park on an easy mislynch for the day and are content to let town rip each other apart while you lurk. D5, you both show back up.

Nah. It's more likely you and Saru.

[Lowell]

FYPOV you're just picking names out of a hat and seeing what sticks as a scumteam you can sell to math, so, sure, me/saru is fine. I guess I don't understand why, if that's the case, you're not pushing saru? On the offchance you're wrong about which combination it is. To me this saru/karnos or saru/lowell thing looks like distancing from saru, who you are sure is scum but are making no effort to lynch. starting to think penguin/saru is the team. still want penguin first just in case.

[Foxbird]

Votecount 5.4

Lowell

(1) - PenguinPower

Not Voting

(5) - MathBlade, karnos, Lowell, bji, Saru

With

6

players eligible to vote, it’s

4

to lynch!

Day 5 will end in

(expired on 2016-12-08 06:17:41).

Mod Notes:

None!

[MathBlade]

FMPoV it is either Penguin/Karnos/Saru with Lowell in that order. If bji is scum he has won IMHO. Work gotta go will check late tonight.

[MathBlade]

I'm here. Briefly, since I'm running to a meeting (and am old). I agree with Math's 1550 in response to penguin's "why would I do this" post, for the reasons he stated. After that we can sort it out, but I'm relatively sure iron and saru are town. I lean town on bji, and I'm not quite seeing the nero case yet. My guess is the other is Karnos. I'll check in on this once more this evening if I can, and then tomorrow.

VOTE: penguin

This post specifically feels planned. I would trust bji to figure out which.

[Saru]

VOTE: Lowell

Notice how fast he jumps on voting Lowell when Math wants Lowell gone?

Nah. It's pretty simple. FMPOV it's you/Saru or Saru/karnos. Saru/karnos requires massive bussing from all scum throughout the game, with a risky D2 play. If they did that, gg. However, looking at the same end of day VCs, you and Saru make more sense. D1 you end up on Saru with only one other person/Saru on Thor with one other - weak bus - and town gets lynched with one scum on. D2 Saru ends up on you with only one other. No scum on Thor, push into no lynch. D3 doesn't matter since Thor was the obv!lynch. D4, both you and Saru park on an easy mislynch for the day and are content to let town rip each other apart while you lurk. D5, you both show back up.

Nah. It's more likely you and Saru.

He went from a Saru/Karnos to a Saru/Lowell team in the blink of an eye. How? He talks about the whole "massive bussing" THAT I POINTED OUT! How is he just NOW seeing it and not when he was calling me and Karnos scum before? Oh, that's right, because before he was pulling a scum team out of his ass, like a flailing scum does. He's essentially making up teams to appease Math, like Lowell said. Next, for example, if Math says she wants to lynch bji, then Penguin will probably come up with some half-assed excuse to link bji with someone else to push the lynch.

Also, remember when he promised to tunnel Karnos today if Nero flipped town yesterday? Good times.

Like something is totally off here. Either he's hoping bji gives him town cred for bussing his partner tomorrow (since Math is likely dead tonight), or Penguin/Karnos is a team. I doubt the latter, since Lowell keeps his options open between Penguin and Karnos, rather than just Penguin. But in the extreme case that it is the latter, I want Penguin gone first.

bji can make the judgement call on the partner tomorrow. I don't see bji as scum in any practical scenario, especially not after what he did with Thor, so I'm fine with giving him the hammer tomorrow.

[Saru]

Also, whoops, meant to write "they" instead of "she" when referring to Math. My apologies.

[bji]

Spoiler: WARNING: This wall is not Penguin-friendly

I'm here. Briefly, since I'm running to a meeting (and am old). I agree with Math's 1550 in response to penguin's "why would I do this" post, for the reasons he stated. After that we can sort it out, but I'm relatively sure iron and saru are town. I lean town on bji, and I'm not quite seeing the nero case yet. My guess is the other is Karnos. I'll check in on this once more this evening if I can, and then tomorrow.

VOTE: penguin

This post specifically feels planned. I would trust bji to figure out which.

Not sure what you mean about "figure out which" ... do you mean, figure out whether or not Lowell's vote was "planned"? If so, I really don't have any feeling either way, I don't exactly see what in that post feels planned to you.

Looking at Lowell's ISO I find these two posts in sequence interesting:

VOTE: saru

I don't know how we got here, but fine. There's about three or four others I'd rather lynch but I'm not nolynching to protect a null lurker read.

VOTE: saru

I don't have a strong case-based reason here, but I do have a strong feeling that the way that day ended was no accident. I recall putting saru to L-1 to avoid a no lynch, then coming back to find some random rube dead.

These two posts stand out because the first one Lowell is saying that Saru is not a scum read for him, but that he's voting Saru to avoid a NL. Then in the second post he re-votes Saru at the beginning of D2 still without any actual scum read. And he also uses the phrase "coming back to find some random rube dead", which implies that he interprets the lynch of Mal as being without good explanation ... this seems disingenuous because he had voted Saru "just to avoid a NL", a day and a half before the deadline, which seems pretty arbitrary too. This posturing of "what are you all doing, my lynch choice was much better" seems fake because he admitted that his lynch choice was just to avoid a NL long before such a reason was valid.

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

Also, this from thor about saru makes me think thor is one of his buddies. Not particularly subtle deflection. Looks like they can't decided whether to bus each other.

So here he's calling Thor "one of his [Saru's] buddies" ... but he has by this point repeatedly stated that he has no scum case on Saru, so why go so far as to call Thor the buddy of someone who isn't even scum? Here we have Lowell claiming a scum team of a player that turned out to be scum (which scum!Lowell would have known was scum) and a player that Lowell never even scum read. That's super fishy. @MathBlade, if anything seems planned, it's this post, where Lowell could be trying to associate a scum buddy with a patsy.

I found nearly nothing in Lowell's ISO regarding Penguin. Penguin didn't even seem to be on his radar until post 1659, and then suddenly he's all hot for a Penguin lynch, all the way up until now. I am still thinking about what that means with regards to a possible { Penguin, Lowell } team.

I have not read Penguin's ISO w.r.t. Lowell yet, but will do so soon.

[karnos]

I'm good with lowell. Only question in my mind is whether it's lowell/saru or lowell/penguin.

Saru, primary problem with your play is you seemed to be very active early on pushing me, then after you came to your senses and moved off my wagon you didn't really do anything else the rest of the game.

Penguin's main suspect comes from his hard push to defend Thor, but it can be somewhat mitigated by his push to protect Nero. While there has been plenty of play from his slot that makes me think he rolled scum, he is indeed actually playing the game, not just lurking it out like Saru.

[Saru]

I'm good with lowell. Only question in my mind is whether it's lowell/saru or lowell/penguin.

Saru, primary problem with your play is you seemed to be very active early on pushing me, then after you came to your senses and moved off my wagon you didn't really do anything else the rest of the game.

Penguin's main suspect comes from his hard push to defend Thor, but it can be somewhat mitigated by his push to protect Nero. While there has been plenty of play from his slot that makes me think he rolled scum, he is indeed actually playing the game, not just lurking it out like Saru.

First off, I'm not really lurking. I'm very much here, aren't I? I will admit, the meat world is a bummer.

Secondly, if you think Penguin's play means he rolled scum then how much he is actually playing makes no difference. Surely, you'd see that his activeness comes in the form of mainly one-liners that don't say much? iron sure seemed to think so. Compare with my posts that seem to have actual substance (and I'll admit, they're sparse in terms of quantity, but that's irrelevant to the point) that try to figure out motives of people (i.e. Thor and Karnos) rather than just baseless accusations (like Lowell and Penguin). Surprisingly (or not), Penguin's posts only get

slightly

bigger as he starts being suspected from yesterday. Substance from defense rather than from scum-hunting. Not very good substance, imo.

Lastly, I wouldn't be too excited about lynching Lowell today. Both Penguin and Lowell are scummy as fuck, and one of them has to go today, but Penguin seems to be better at escaping the noose compared to Lowell. He's done it two days in a row now. No offense to bji, but I don't see Penguin necessarily being lynched tomorrow. Instead, I predict more flailing and emotional BS that will let him win it all. I would not be a happy camper. But hey, I would love to be wrong.

[PenguinPower]

Can we get this going please? MB isn't going to vote until he "has hammers," and I'm not responding to any inane drivel that Saru posts. So, if karnos or bji have any questions/reservations/accusations/etc let's get those out and move on. Please don't drag this out for 8 more days.

[bji]

Can we get this going please? MB isn't going to vote until he "has hammers," and I'm not responding to any inane drivel that Saru posts. So, if karnos or bji have any questions/reservations/accusations/etc let's get those out and move on. Please don't drag this out for 8 more days.

I've never played with an IC before but this game has taught me the effect that the IC has on town's game. It makes you feel like someone else is driving the game because we can't really do anything without Math anyway. We can't build a wagon because it's pointless to build one that Math isn't willing to hammer, so it feels like we're just waiting to hear Math's plan and then express our opinions. And he/she/it hasn't posted a plan yet.

[MathBlade]

Honestly I am intentionally lurking so I don't make a mistake. I want a wagon to form naturally and be convincing. While I do have hammer I should be always listening in case my reads are wrong. I would rather have a dragged out victory rather than a quick loss. Penguin what makes what Saru says insane drivel?

My plan is simple. Listen and give thoughts just as if I wasn't an IC but I will hammer.

[MathBlade]

@bji and Penguin they please.
I know it is hard because most of you knew me when I wasn't such a stickler on pronouns.

[karnos]

VOTE: Lowell

Notice how fast he jumps on voting Lowell when Math wants Lowell gone?

It doesn't really mean anything. Scum or Town penguin would act the same way in this case, so it doesn't tell us anything new.

[karnos]

VOTE: Lowell

Just need to move the game forward. Between Saru/Lowell/Penguin, I feel most strongly that Lowell is scum.

If Bji/Saru is actually the scum team (I hope not) they can quick-lynch now and win.

[Saru]

It doesn't really mean anything. Scum or Town penguin would act the same way in this case, so it doesn't tell us anything new.

It doesn't matter if both scum or town Penguin would do such a thing, because it's about the timing.

Penguin chose Lowell/Saru as his team (and voted Lowell) only AFTER Math chose to want to lynch Lowell. The question is, why move away from a Saru/Karnos team at that time? One could say "oh well maybe he saw your post and understood that a Karnos/Saru team would make no sense because of the bussing factor" to which I would respond: then why was Penguin pushing a team who he had done no research about and also, why would he believe someone who he is scum reading to convince him of a different team? Maybe Karnos IS my partner, and I've successfully fooled Penguin into thinking otherwise?

Furthermore, why would Penguin not instead say a Karnos/Lowell team since he promised to bus Karnos today? The answer is simple: he needs Karnos on his side tomorrow after he buses his partner. Penguin knows his partner is doomed today because everyone is saying Lowell is scum (otherwise he'd want to win the game right away by finishing me off like he was trying to earlier), and he can't defend him, so he has to lynch him. And he won't include Karnos in his scum list or push him because he needs Karnos on his side tomorrow. He puts me in as the partner because he knows I'll never lynch bji or Karnos, so there's no point in trying to appease me. It's really the only option he has left. I'm sure the original plan was to try and get Karnos or myself lynched today, but Lowell getting caught out ruined that.

Anyways, Penguin's point about my "inane drivel" is hilarious. It's inane drivel because it's about him. Or maybe he needs an excuse not to respond to it, because he can't.

I would be fine with a Lowell lynch today, but the one thing I would request is that Math/bji pick who they think the third partner is. The reason is because nothing will change tomorrow from today. Lowell will flip scum, Math will die, and we'll be back to where we were at the start of this day with Penguin and I calling each other scum. The difference will be that our IC will be dead, and they'll have no input on the lynch process. So it's better now that Math/bji agree on a third partner and they be lynched tomorrow straight away. Any discussion that would happen tomorrow about the last scum can happen today since we still have like a week left. Unless either of you think that some new discussion will arise tomorrow that wouldn't or couldn't be discussed today?

[bji]

VOTE: Lowell

Just need to move the game forward. Between Saru/Lowell/Penguin, I feel most strongly that Lowell is scum.

If Bji/Saru is actually the scum team (I hope not) they can quick-lynch now and win.

Interesting play. You essentially took the hammer from Math there.

@Saru: why do you want Math and I to pick the last lynch and announce it today?

[karnos]

I think it's safe to say the scum team isn't bji/saru at least!

[Saru]

@Saru: why do you want Math and I to pick the last lynch and announce it today?

You don't have to, but there's no point in figuring out the last scum tomorrow, because there will be no new information to go off of. Might as well do it today while Math is around to give their input. I'm still going to vote Penguin tomorrow and he's probably going to vote me tomorrow, so it'll end up with you guys having to pick between us anyways. Any discussion that Penguin and I would have tomorrow could also happen today, if you get what I mean.

This is all assuming we actually lynch Lowell and he flips scum. If he flips town, it's game over anyways.

[bji]

At this point, every moment that passes is just more confirmation that Lowell is scum.

Karnos' play was anti-town. He enabled a quickhammer. Karnos -- why did you think it was OK to enable a quickhammer instead of waiting for Math to request the wagon?

[karnos]

I'm confident that between lowell and penguin, there is AT LEAST one scum.

[bji]

I'm confident that between lowell and penguin, there is AT LEAST one scum.

Yeah but, you have to be 100% sure that lowell is scum to not risk the whole game with that vote on him. Saying there is "AT LEAST" one scum in Lowell/Penguin while voting Lowell is basically saying that you're not certain that Lowell is scum, but that you're OK with enabling a quickhammer if he's not. That is anti-town.

Furthermore, Math already expressed an interest in lynching Lowell so the correct town approach would be to agree with Math that Lowell is likely scum but wait for Math to give the go-ahead for the lynch. Having the IC as a hammer is a very powerful tool against quickhammer losses (and quickhammering is how scum wins 90% of the time), so taking the hammer away from Math was also very anti-town.