Mini 521 (SMSM, Ended)

[DrippingGoofball]

OK so I can't vote - and I can't vote tonight "Condorcet style" in private because I haven't lost the most recent subgame?

[WaterboyWaldo]

Er, I tried to click on the PLAYERS link in the first post, but it just took me to an icon image.

Genuine error, or mafia sabotage?

[Adele]

[quote=""kabenon"]Although... Adele is experienced enough... she should have known that if she put the third vote then a scum would hammer to win the game... so why would she do that? I think Adele could be scum as well... protecting one or more of her metascum partners that were subscum... if the town were to lose, we metatownies have a harder chance of hitting metascum, because we have more to choose from... so I think Adele is going to be on top of my list. [/quote]Sorry, what

should

I have done?
Let us no-lynch our way to a scum win, or give the town a chance by lynching a reasonable candidate?

@Adele you can criticize me for me upset that you guys didn't understand me, but you guys never told me that you didn't understand what I was saying, you just basically decided to ignore me.

Interesting. I don't see it that way. I don't think it was yet the time to be thinking the way you were, and I see your actions throughout the subgame as derailment. Engaging you in discussion would have only furthered this.
The only question on my mind is, were you deliberately derailing the game, and were you doing so for scummy reasons?

How are we supposed to find metascum in this setup?

Never thought I'd <3 DGB . No clue, but I think it'll emerge over time. Pooky's trying to force it, which I think'll just mean that we're as clueless at the end as we are now.

That seems like something we can better do a bit later than now... you know, once we know who we want to meta-lynch

after all, if the minigames were nor tactically relevant, a mod as wise and fantastic as mith (/crawl, yet true) wouldn't have bothered including them.

I have difficulties reconciling this with the floundering that followed.

I have no doubt that the minigames

will be

useful. I just don't think that usefullness could've been aplied during the first. Yeah, I floundered - I was confused. I believed the games were there for a reason, and couldn't figure out how to use them.

[kabenon007]

There are other people in this game other than you, Adele, I think it was necessary at some point, I just think it was premature at the time you chose to do it.

[Adele]

Really? Do you think it's reasonable to expect the situation to change dramatically in a couple of days?

I didn't. I thought the game would end one of two ways, and supported the way that I preferred.

[kabenon007]

A couple of days in a Day that lasts about a week is a significant amount of time, relatively speaking.

[Fiasco]

I would like those people who had night choices (docs, RB, mafia RB) to claim what their night choices were.

I would like Pooky to address at least these points: 1) I don't do intentional craplogic, 2) plans that ask metagame townies to play against their own subgame side cannot be enforced because people will vote out of suspicion rather than punishment, 3) asking for scum to come out if you're playing for a town loss is stupid, because you don't know the town will go along even if it's the right strategy; better ask them first.

I am not excited at the prospect of getting lynched by default on Pooky's say-so. I respect him for being serious about the metagame, but if people tried to follow the argument they would find he has no case. I feel like I'm just getting a grip on this game's strategy and have some tricks I want to play on the scum now that we're going to go into the subgame with some actual information.

I would prefer a lynch of Pooky and maybe Max or Sarcastro.

[ryan]

My roleblocks were the following (cause I know this will be brought up later)

N1: Sarcastro
N2: -
N3: Pooky
N4: -

[mith]

I'm going to extend the deadline an additional 24 hours because I'm staying in Brighton another night and I may not have time to update this when I get back. I'll be sending out prods tomorrow to anyone that hasn't sent their vote-list.

[Max]

should I send or should my replacement

[Adele]

A couple of days in a Day that lasts about a week is a significant amount of time, relatively speaking.

Wow.
Um, I disagree. The gamestate seemed

very

static and immoveable to me, and bandwagons have generally been slow and exclusive. Factor in that I (and clearly several others) can't be at the PC 24/7 haranguing people, and the result is deadlines that've been pinching the town. We were time-short, so I went action-heavy. I made a call. The wrong one. But I don't see that things would've ended more happily if I'd done differently.

[Simenon]

Adele put me on ignore.

[kabenon007]

Um, Wow. I didn't say the activity wasn't static or stagnant. I said that, if you take a couple days, say, two or three, and divide that by number of days in a week, (which is seven) and the percentage is hardly something I would call small. I was pointing out that there was still time to deadline, and deadlines cause action. Also, I dislike your use of "I made a call." It's like you are trying to justify actions that don't need justification. We know it was your call, and we certainly know it was the wrong one. We don't need to be reminded every time you post.

[kabenon007]

N0: Fiasco
N1: Xdaamno... woot woot!
N2: SomeStrange
N3: SomeStrange

[DrippingGoofball]

N0: Fiasco
N1: Xdaamno... woot woot!
N2: SomeStrange
N3: SomeStrange

Rationale?

[kabenon007]

You didn't ask ryan the same question... noted...
I protected Fiasco because he seemed to know what he was doing, and it would have been unfortunate for him to die N0. Xdaamno for N1... I just got a feeling he was kind of lurking, while trying to give town input, which made me think he was a power role. And SomeStrangeSimenon seemed like a good Nk, I can't recall exactly why, I think it was kind of that he wasn't posting as much as some, and so we would have a harder time deciphering who would want him dead.

[Adele]

I've submitted my picks.

[Max]

I will be sending in my votes as mith has failed to realise not in the last post the post before I asked to be replaced

[Adele]

Adele put me on ignore.

?

What do you mean? Do you feel I ignored you? What? Where?

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

[Fiasco]

Now I believe Fiasco is meta scum because he suggested the N1 kill of Sarcastro

This argument depends on Sarcastro being scum, so why would you single out me?

mild FoS: Max and Sarcastro

[Xdaamno]

I will be sending in my votes as mith has failed to realise not in the last post the post before I asked to be replaced

I doubt he missed it; he could be away/sick, or might have been irritated in your demands that people go look in Mish Mash for reasoning because you can't be bothered to spend 10 seconds copying and pasting

Also, I've submitted my list.

[SomeStrangeSimenon]

I've sent a list to Simenon, who'll, presumably, edit it as he sees fit before passing it on to mith. I'm gonna be V/LA for a few days, so I've sent the list to mith as well, just in case Sim doesn't get a chance.

Love, Flea

[ryan]

My list has been submitted as well.

[SomeStrangeSimenon]

I've sent a list to Simenon, who'll, presumably, edit it as he sees fit before passing it on to mith. I'm gonna be V/LA for a few days, so I've sent the list to mith as well, just in case Sim doesn't get a chance.

Love, Flea

I edited the list. There are large discrepancies.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

1) I don't do intentional craplogic,
Um, why wouldn't you do it if you thought you could get away with it and it would further your group's aims? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here... and how would I know if you are telling the truth? Should I take you on your word?

2) plans that ask metagame townies to play against their own subgame side cannot be enforced because people will vote out of suspicion rather than punishment,
Yes, people vote out of suspicion, but what suspicion is the suspicion that matters? Subgame suspicion or metagame suspicion? Is it more important to figure out who are the metascum or who are the subscum? Because our goal in this game is not to win every subgame but to win the metagame, people SHOULD be voting according to their metagame suspicions. If I think that Player A/B are Metascum, and they happen to be on the same SubSide with me, why would I not play against that SubSide in order to try to metalynch A/B?


3) asking for scum to come out if you're playing for a town loss is stupid, because you don't know the town will go along even if it's the right strategy; better ask them first.

Stupid for whom? Where's the harm? These points have nothing to do with my guilt nor yours. Am I trying to "trick" these subscum out to get them lynched? For that to happen, people will have to ignore the fact that SubRole Assignment has NOTHING TO DO WITH META-ALIGNMENT. If I had 12 players, 3 of them being scum, and then I assigned divided the 12 into 2 groups arbitirarily, a group of 3 and a group of 9, and you were trying to lynch scum, would you want to lynch from a group of 9 or a group of 3? Would knowing which group you are in change your opinion much? If the town is not willing to even think about it along those lines and only care about staying off the lynching block today then they have exchanged longterm victory for shorterm survival and they are going to be screwed anyway.

You've been trying to distract from the main point all along.

I'm probably going to be metalynched, so good luck guys.[/mech]