Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[MariaR]

Also the "would scum tunnel this hard" argument is huge wifom
Pedit: You don't think I know this?????????
Jack could get lynched
Maybe Creature too

I like both of those and will happily sheep them

[BlackVoid]

I also think Jack is a decent chance of being scum

Why do you think this?

Pseudo-PoE I guess, as I just haven't seen much from him that makes me go, "oh ok, probs town", whereas I have with a handful of others. I know it's too late in the game to not really have any concrete scumreads, but realistically, I feel like many of my scumreads aren't particularly accurate, so voting with people I think are town has been a key factor in my votes.

What in your opinion are the major flaws of my 817?

[MariaR]

I think if I can get Creature lynched and he flips red people will finally wake up to BV scum

Can we lynch Creature?

[Hoopla]

Scum don't wanna draw attention on themselves but they don't mind putting it in hammer range

I feel like BlackVoid has been very involved and putting himself in the limelight in critical situations, like around claim time and late wagon votes. To me he is drawing a lot of attention to himself. Also, him reaching out to me and trying to get me back in the game and providing content felt town motivated when he easily could have lurked and let me be lynched. But no, he is drawing attention to himself and trying to rally alternate wagons now when an easy mislynch in me is available.

I don't agree with all his reads, but I think this would be a particularly creative variety of deception if he is scum.

[Hoopla]

What in your opinion are the major flaws of my 817?

The major flaw of that post is it's too long and you have wildly opposite reads to me, so I find it hard to trust massively constructed cases that are almost certainly tainted with all sorts of biases.

[BlackVoid]

In an ideal world I'd actually lynch either GM or cloud and let sotty and jaack sort itself out in massclaim, but neither seems viable.

I don't want to lynch outside on my four scumreads, at least not today. If I'm wrong on any of them, then yeah I'll go over my townreads again.

[MariaR]

Scum don't wanna draw attention on themselves but they don't mind putting it in hammer range

I feel like BlackVoid has been very involved and putting himself in the limelight in critical situations, like around claim time and late wagon votes. To me he is drawing a lot of attention to himself. Also, him reaching out to me and trying to get me back in the game and providing content felt town motivated when he easily could have lurked and let me be lynched. But no, he is drawing attention to himself and trying to rally alternate wagons now when an easy mislynch in me is available.

I don't agree with all his reads, but I think this would be a particularly creative variety of deception if he is scum.

Can I get quotes cause I have no idea what game you're reading

[Raskolnikov]

So here's the thing. I've been trying to look to see if there was anyone who had a problem with sotty in a sort of soft-CC kind of way, and pick up the hint that way. But jaack confirms not visiting anywhere which was from sotty and isn't (jaack-pr would just CC I think), BV probably isn't, and no one else really seems to feel strongly. I don't actually see what I would expect if it's fake and that's the concern. I think it's mostly safe to say?

[Raskolnikov]

There is still a possibility where the above fails but it's a smaller chance though. No one should come out and say anything if it's wrong, obviously.

[BlackVoid]

What are the odds that the night one kill is one of the two biggest threats to Sotty7 that isn't investigated by Sotty7? Her claim and night action is too convenient for me to believe. Her reasoning for investigating Jaack over TwoFace is really weak and sounds made up.

How in the hell is it convenient? The reality is I have no actual information on Jaack. If I was scum faking a no result, why wouldn't I just claim it on Twoface? The result is essentially the same. You are completely tunneled on me for no good reason. Every time I challenge you on it, I get ignored. Why is it weak? Why does it sound made up?

Wait, "no result?" I was under the impression that you were saying Jaack went nowhere. There's a difference. Please clarify this.

I don't think you are fake-claiming. I think you are a mafia tracker who tracked Jaack last night.

Your reasoning for picking Jaack basically was that you were the only one scumreading TwoFace. I think if you were town, you'd go for TwoFace over Jaack as you seemed more certain on TwoFace. He was also more widely townread which means he's more likely to perform the kill. Being widely townread also means he's unlikely to get lynched unless he's caught through a night action which is more reason to pick him.

I also think you're acting a little intentionally ignorant. You can clearly see why the nightkill alone as well as the combination of the nightkill and track choice heavily points to you as scum. Instead of admitting that and arguing that you are still town, you are pretending like I'm being completely off my rocker.

[Sotty7]

Wait, "no result?" I was under the impression that you were saying Jaack went nowhere. There's a difference. Please clarify this.

Yeah I got a result saying he went nowhere. Which as a tracker doesn't mean anything really, a different scum could have easily made the kill. So it doesn't clear him but it sure as hell doesn't implicate him either. It's a wash

Poor wording on my part, I understand the confusion.

[Hoopla]

Can I get quotes cause I have no idea what game you're reading

You're critical of BlackVoid putting the Grey wagon within lynch range on D1 whilst ignoring he was on the wagon to begin with, unvoted him and was highly active at a very unstable period of the game when Grey was trying to save himself, considered options elsewhere, and then

revoted

Grey again. His play was absolutely in the limelight and looked like he was trying to figure out what was going on and what to do.

Today, he's reached out to me in my eleventh hour and is trying to rally a lynch elsewhere. Again, what's the point of doing that when I'm an easy mislynch up for grabs.

He's usually active and having his voice heard in critical stages of the game like this, which I think is a town mindset, as scum will often sit back and evaluate their options and won't often flip-flop and try to move the wave of momentum elsewhere (especially when it's moving it away from a townie, like he has with Grey and now me). It's risky and creative as scum to not sit back and accept mislynches when they fall into your lap, because you won't always get townread for it (exhibit A: your view of BV now) and risks opening the door to a chaotic scramble where scum could be lynched instead.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think you are fake-claiming. I think you are a mafia tracker who tracked Jaack last night.

why would mafia tracker exist vs masons

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 2.09

Hoopla (4)

I Am Innocent , Creature , BlackVoid , Jaack , L-2,

Jaack (4)

MariaR , CloudKicker , Hoopla , Sotty7 L-2,

Creature (1)

goodmorning ,

Not Voting (2)

VictorDeAngelo , Raskolnikov ,

Day two deadline is Friday November 18, 1 PM PST. (expired on 2016-11-18 13:00:00)

Raskolnikov has been prodded.

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch!

[/size]

[Jaack]

I've reviewed creature, and mantain a slight townlean there. His posts are lean but I don't really feel much scum coming from them.

I don't want to lynch BV, Rask, or GM today, and a victor lynch is probably a bad idea lathough his utter lack of participation today is pretty disenheartening. Oh yeah, and while Maria is annoying, I'm not interested in that lynch either.

I'm still okay with a Hoopla lynch, but not enthralled.

Sotty and Cloud are the dream lynches.

I could lynch IAI too if we have the support.

[Hoopla]

why would mafia tracker exist vs masons

For the unpredictable lol-modwifom.

Not a very likely reason, but some mods do weird design things like that to keep towns on their toes. More likely is a Mafia Role Cop which can provide "went nowhere" results on VT's safely, and also makes more sense in a Mason setup.

[MariaR]

Can I get quotes cause I have no idea what game you're reading

You're critical of BlackVoid putting the Grey wagon within lynch range on D1 whilst ignoring he was on the wagon to begin with, unvoted him and was highly active at a very unstable period of the game when Grey was trying to save himself, considered options elsewhere, and then

revoted

Grey again. His play was absolutely in the limelight and looked like he was trying to figure out what was going on and what to do.

Today, he's reached out to me in my eleventh hour and is trying to rally a lynch elsewhere. Again, what's the point of doing that when I'm an easy mislynch up for grabs.

He's usually active and having his voice heard in critical stages of the game like this, which I think is a town mindset, as scum will often sit back and evaluate their options and won't often flip-flop and try to move the wave of momentum elsewhere (especially when it's moving it away from a townie, like he has with Grey and now me). It's risky and creative as scum to not sit back and accept mislynches when they fall into your lap, because you won't always get townread for it (exhibit A: your view of BV now) and risks opening the door to a chaotic scramble where scum could be lynched instead.

You're lowish hanging fruit I'd say why wouldn't he try and get a vote on another town going this can play out for any scum and it's very like

*Scum switches wagon to another player and lynches it or gets it to claim and it flips town*
Scum: oh well guess I was wrong! *goes back on first wagon*

[Sotty7]

I also think you're acting a little intentionally ignorant. You can clearly see why the nightkill alone as well as the combination of the nightkill and track choice heavily points to you as scum. Instead of admitting that and arguing that you are still town, you are pretending like I'm being completely off my rocker.

I think the night kill was picked very well by the scum. Combine that with the Grey lynch and ALLLLLL the talk at the end of yesterday that condemned me as scum because of wagons I think they expected today to be very short and end with a nice Sotty lynch. I'm pretty sure why the game has stalled so hard towards the end of the day here, they didn't anticipate my claim and didn't really have a plan B, like at all. I was set up to fail today, why as scum would I do that? I was doing okish going back and forth with Two face, why would scum me risk that kill when it only points back to me? It doesn't point to anyone else in this game, doesn't that ring any bells for you?

I won't lie deciding between Jaack and Twoface was hard for me but I was wrong about Grey and nearly everyone in the game that I thought was town told me I was wrong about Twoface which is what tipped me over to Jaack in the end. You would still be here pushing on me if I had picked Twoface because I would have the same result but this time on a dead townie. We're walking down the WIFOM hole here but I was clearly screwed either way.

[BlackVoid]

I don't think you are fake-claiming. I think you are a mafia tracker who tracked Jaack last night.

why would mafia tracker exist vs masons

I don't know. Mafia roles don't necessarily need to counter townroles. I can post quotes of mhsmith arguing this point elsewhere.

[Hoopla]

I think the night kill was picked very well by the scum.

easy now, nobody likes a bragger

[Sotty7]

I would also support a IAI lynch should that pop up.

[goodmorning]

The fact people are letting BV live shocks me to the core

and @GM you're right but there's also a cool jack wagon and I like both

but he looked

so town

and now he's gone weird but he could just be town descending into madness and i have 0 idea how to read him help

but why

Others I'd be willing to vote today would be goodmorning, IAI and now also Sotty if it gets off the ground.

GUYS

HOW DID I FORGET I TRIED TO START AN IAI WAGON

LET'S DO THAT

Are you trying to Flash wagon GM right now Rask? Why?

Because I don't always use correct grammar and have several unpopular opinions and am getting wishy-washier as the game goes on and thus am an easy wagon?

Or that 10-page case Rask posted on me a little while ago. Possibly that.

--

Tunneling is mildly scummy ftr.

--

Can we lynch Creature?

Hop on the wagon and we'll find out!

--

guys i am getting really tired of all the nightkill spec when the obvi answer is that 2face was just a pretty universal tr in the wrong place at the wrong time

[goodmorning]

I would also support a IAI lynch should that pop up.

still want to try to make the creature wagon go but holy shit quickwagon sounds pretty awesome too

[Hoopla]

You're lowish hanging fruit I'd say why wouldn't he try and get a vote on another town going this can play out for any scum and it's very like

*Scum switches wagon to another player and lynches it or gets it to claim and it flips town*
Scum: oh well guess I was wrong! *goes back on first wagon*

Personally I just don't see scum being the proactive playmakers trying to change the way the wind is blowing when it has already settled on town. I see this sort of play more often from town, and I'm not putting it past BV to be able to do it as scum, I just think it's less likely.

Usually the scum template at critical junctures like those are more along the lines of lurking, sitting at the base of wagons (or votes going nowhere), not getting super involved in trying to upset the applecart and just letting townies make the scummy looking L-1 votes and hammers, and then attacking them tomorrow.