Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[CloudKicker]

Intent

claim please

[I Am Innocent]

IAI is all over the map. I goaded him into placing his vote but he still doesn't seem very convinced, his reasoning is vague and is based off things I simply can't defend. It feels like more of a bandwagon vote to make it look like he is doing something while hedging his bets.

Doesn't seem very convinced? A bandwagon vote? Hedging my bets? For realz???

I started off the today all but announcing to the world that I was going to vote either you or Hoopla. I waited to see how you two reacted. You voted Rask. She voted GM. I didn't like either of those votes. (Hers was a little better than yours.) Neither seems willing to vote the other which only reaffirms my read on both of you. If one of you had voted the other, that would have been very telling. But the way I see it, both are prob scum and neither are willing to bus.

You've played with scum IAI. Heck you nominated me for a scummy if I recall correctly after our first game. Then we played Zachtown in the Mountains. Which was all over the map IAI? It's not even close. Town Sotty would know my meta, know my cool play as scum and my erratic, don't care if I get lynched play as town.

I respect the heck out of you. I would never vote you day 2 of a game unless I was pretty sure you were scum. You are one of the feistiest toughest town players I've ever played with. You scared the heck out of me that first game. I'm not seeing that at all. I'm seeing a very tame Sotty, not aggressively pushing wagons on your scum reads, but instead trying to subtly discredit me by accusing me of being all over the place when you would know that is my town play. Remember my meltdown in the Mountains game against Ben, where I self voted. Would you consider that "all over the place"?

Inb4 WIFOM change in meta play etc blah blah blah

[I Am Innocent]

@Sotty, you mention this about me "his reasoning is vague and is based off things I simply can't defend"

You just listed Maria as "a lot closer to town than null"

What have you seen in her reasoning this game that gives such a different read on her?

[Jaack]

UNVOTE:

Cloud, explain to me why you are scumreading sotty. You're two posts discussing her today show an extreme ambivalence.

[goodmorning]

what makes you think cloud is scumreading sotty?

[Jaack]

He gave intent to hammer her. With 9 days left until deadline, I doubt he has any other reason to do that unless he's scum reading her.

[goodmorning]

Well, I won't answer for him.

[CloudKicker]

@jaack i wanted a claim and i havent read the day or what post you are reffering to. I havent even actually read sotty for a while but she constantly put shade on me for not actual reason, this is exactly what mafia whos being wagoned would do : they cant include strong town/active players too much on their scumpool so they have to includes thoses who are less active and null from a town pov, she literraly never outed a singel reason why am i mafia but poe and says im scummy -> this is a scumplay imo

Now, i wasnt actually going to hammer but i wanted a claim

[CloudKicker]

what makes you think cloud is scumreading sotty?

Also this, i never said i actually scumread her but her push on me is complete bullshit and scream scum

[goodmorning]

^^that was what i thought
A. lazy
B. ridiculous

p-edit:i n t e r e s t i n g

[CloudKicker]

Also i just would like to point out that jaack pushed on her for many days/posts yet unvotes and doesnt wait for a claim, sotty wont most likely claim with a L-2 and gm is still a town read since he had the exact same thought as i did :3

[goodmorning]

No, I meant I thought you asked for intent because you were being A and/or B.

[CloudKicker]

I like you gm, i like cats and i believe youre being unfarily read this game if you would like to jump on my own town wagon you can be the chauffeur

[goodmorning]

I don't know what you're talking about!

[CloudKicker]

The only thing is, its that as scum it would be a complete disaster of a play to antagonize randoms lurkings townies when they are being wagonned you know, i still want a claim mr jack

[BlackVoid]

Hey Cloud, why did you say earlier that you were going to sheep GreyICEs' townread on Sotty7? As far as I can see from your completed games, you never played with GreyICE and if you are just going off of him being confirmed town, then TwoFace is confirmed town as well and he was scumreading Sotty7. Why look at GreyICE's read specifically?

I'll respond to Sotty7's posts and the GM read I'm supposed to explain later.

[CloudKicker]

*buddying gm the cat intensifies**



But with all seriousness, i liked gm's d1 a lot and shes literraly obviously being pushed by mafia who tries to put an agenda on her ass cause shes trolly/wierd/awk, same thing sotty is trying to put on mine or throw empty shade around with 0 substance

[CloudKicker]

Hey Cloud, why did you say earlier that you were going to sheep GreyICEs' townread on Sotty7? As far as I can see from your completed games, you never played with GreyICE and if you are just going off of him being confirmed town, then TwoFace is confirmed town as well and he was scumreading Sotty7. Why look at GreyICE's read specifically?

I'll respond to Sotty7's posts and the GM read I'm supposed to explain later.

Cause he was pretty pissed about it and its a ml, but the truth is i havent even got around to reread all the prelynch yet and youre right ill have to read into tf as well

Heres the possibilites:

Sotty is town -> she actually out terribles lines and antagonizes town for 0 reason when about to get lynched -> bad play but might be genuine if her sr on me and jack could be backed up, didnt happen yet

sotty is mafia -> Try to get me lynched and flip the wagon onto me.

Theres one thing i really despise is being unfairly fosed and i absolutely know what is my ''meta role'' or place this game, i am a lurking town easy push whos trolly and is seens like a wildcard, this is attractive to mafia

[CloudKicker]

Also depending on the flip, i dont think that the way it goes i am a good nk target, this means that eventually ill survive to a lylo situation if we keep mling ppl and ill have to be more active, when this will happen i will step up my game.

And btw sotty, i still want your claim and if you even dare to make a bad post or excuse yourself about not claiming in your few next posts, i will iso you and fuck you up if i end up sring you.

[CloudKicker]

Spoiler:

Happy enough with hoopla's post on Michel to have him as my first town read. Hoopla piggybacks off this with a slight town read as well, even though she probably would point this out as scum or town.

Cloud I have a neutral read since most of his posts have been about playing style but I'm hoping that's just because he is new.

Everyone else is pretty much nothing at this point.

Of those three I think Sotty is most likely. She had an empty vote, but at the same time added a few weak reads right afterword. Seems like someone who knew their vote was not good, so they decided to put down some content so as to not get blamed for fluff. 86 also shows more self awareness about the quality of her posts.

Of course I want to generate content, that's part of the reason I attempted to start two separate wagons (gm and rask) I won't make excuses for the quality of my posting (yeah, it was an empty vote) but I do think you're being a little harsh considering everything you listed here could also be ascribed to town posting. That said, I like your tone and for page five I've seen worst cases.

I don't want to step on Hoopla's toes because gambits are the name of her game. I find her generally hard to get a read on in the early game so I tend to sort her town and let her out herself as scum as the game draws on. It helps that I value her as an extremely strong town player and would really like to tag team on this game if she is indeed town. Because of this I found Rask's initial case and vote on Hoopla weak, but most of it could be down to a lack of experience with her which could be understandable. However, Rask's vote remains despite Hoopla's reasonable responses to his points.

I like BBT more for scum at this point. He came in with a vote on Rask to start a wagon, there were already two other players with two votes at the time Blackvoid and gm. It seems to be an attempt to sort Rask which comes quick and with no further elaboration. I would have expected more considering the history they both speak to. Feels like he started the wagon then panicked a little when it took off. I also remember BBTScum being very no nonsense cutting to the heart of the matter, were as townBBT being more open.

Unvote, Vote: BBT

Rask - What do you think of BBT now? Is my meta outdated?

I like twoface so far, I mean he hasn't done much but I don't get the feeling he is trying to hide anything from his posts.

Other scum reads, Cloud maybe? I can't decide on him. We'll put I am Innocent as a scum read for now just for lurking. Like what the hell dude?

What do you think about his back and forth with Maria when she has her vote on him asking her why she didn't "engage him"?

I'm not sure what are asking. Can you rephrase this?

In other news, I was hoping to get your take on Rask since we see eye to eye on GreyICE/BBT. I think he's the most likely partner. Can you also explain your townread on MariaR?

I'm also curious whether you think I'm missing something so commenting on my reads as a whole would be nice, especially the null reads. I think the third partner to GreyICE and Rask is in there. I just can't figure out who yet.

Reads

Town: Victor, IAI, Sotty7, TwoFace, goodmorning, Jaack, Cloud
Null: Hoopla, MariaR, Michel's slot
Scum: GreyICE, Rask

I can't link right now but posts 658 and 662 are him asking Maria why she wouldn't engage him. It feels like a push that doesn't match his behavior. Rask I have as town right now,he just started to drift into the background. Is this part of the reason you are scum reading him?

Maria is town because of her interactions with jaack and general tone feels town. There are a few reads we disagree on. I'd swap rask and two face and move jaack into the scum pile. I'd also switch Maria and cloud and hoopla is more town than null.

Why is two face town? I can take another look at rask when I get home tonight to see if anything sticks out.

@Sotty7, since you seem so sure GreyICE is scum, you are not concerned about any of the players trying to derail his wagon? As for my reads, I'll break this down by player.

You mean the same players who keep complaining about a lack of counter wagon but aren't really doing anything to generate said counter wagon? At least they have something going with the Victor wagon now I suppose even if I disagree. I just really hate the world view of "this is too easy" without really rallying anyone to any kind of flag.

Jaack: He was hypocritical but I don't think hypocrisy is scummy. What do you think about the points I made in 817?

For one you overstated the inevitability of a Jaack lynch, we can see that with hindsight. Several people were willing to move over but it never really surfaced. If we're going to talk about counter wagons, that one had the potential to explode and yet it didn't. The meta thing could be a good point, I just find his poking on Maria about why she didn't engage him to be a little disparate and it doesn't match with his "world view". I have asked him a couple of times why he hasn't engaged me and he keeps shrugging it off as if it's nothing about nothing, why is he so keen to get an answer from Maria? Doesn't add up to me.

Rask's buddying of Grey in the last page or so is really the only thing lately that has given me pause about that slot. It seemed less like an attempt to sort than an attempt to position himself to go either way. "I don't know if I should trust you" gave me the creeps. Pick a side and commit. Not enough for a scum read though.

MariaR: Really dislike the constant refrain of "if GreyICE is town, doesn't it bother anyone that there isn't a counterwagon." It seems like a twisted argument because she's using that to create a counterwagon. We could flip the question and ask why there's so much resistance to the GreyICE wagon that we've got first you, then Jaack, then Victor as counterwagons. Looks like a pathos-driven argument that's coming from someone who wants to push an agenda.

I'll give you this point. The counter wagon point holds no weight with me considering they have a band of players that could have done something about that by now. Why are you town reading Cloud?

TwoFace: The way he's pushing his reads, first Victor, now you. TwoFace being so sure that you are scum that he's close to the point of giving up looks sincere to me and his worldview of a Sotty7-based scumteam and frustration with the counterwagons makes sense.

Did you look at twoface's reason for his initial vote on me? He is voting me for my use of the word stuff. He repeated this reasoning in a recent post and it's just awful. Since then he has just sat on my wagon and thrown out more crap about the counter wagon (something you are scum reading Maria for) and done very little to attempt to read me. I've asked him for reads that aren't me and he still hasn't delivered. Scum can very easy fake anger here while wasting a vote and not moving it. There is an active counter starting now with Victor. Where is Twoface's vote? Still on me.

I could also see scum in Cloud and/or Creature

Okay we can come back to Rask later.

Alright, let's talk about MariaR. Give me more than "tone and interactions with Jaack." You said the same thing in 902 ("interactions with Jaack and general tone"). What does that really mean? You are going to have to dumb this down for me a bit because it's apparently going over my head.

There are a ton of different play styles on mafiascum and a lot of them are very different to mine and what I would consider "optimal" play. Doesn't mean their way of play is any better or worse than mine, just means I need to try and read based of how they play, not how I would want or expect them to play.

With that in mind, Maria comes across as a very fluid type of player. I haven't played with her before and I am not very good at reading this style of play which is why it took me so long to commit to a read of her. Maybe it helped that she was pushing and voting for one of my scum reads at the time Jaack. I felt like Jaack's panic to the vote was disproportionate to the pressure coming from Maria. It felt like she voted him in an attempt to see if a wagon would start there and kick something going that wasn't Grey. It didn't kick off, I would say mostly because Grey didn't move his vote. Maybe I was reading too much into this since Maria never really claimed this was her plan, but that's how it looks to me looking in.

The tone thing is mostly a gut reaction. She feels relaxed and at ease which makes me think town more than scum. There is a lot of fluff in the ISO but there are also reads. She comments about the BBT wagon, on me, on Rask. The Sable vote was pretty bad, but the Jaack vote looks good to me and the Victor push makes sense if she was town reading Grey which is what it looked like at the end of the day.

Maria -

What's your read on Cloud? You two know each other pretty well by all accounts, does he lurk as scum?

Read wise this is where I am at in order:

Town: Victor, BV,GM
Null to town: Maria, Hoopla
Null to scum: Jaack, Cloud
Scum: Rask, Creature, IAI

Jaack and cloud are a lot closer to scum than null. Maria is a lot closer to town than null. Hoopla is nicely in the middle of null and town.

As fair warning I will be gone all of the day tomorrow again. It's bad timing, but my job put me in a month training class at the last minute so I won't be able to real time respond until around 6ish CST tomorrow evening. I also have to try and sleep for real now.

SHADE SHADE SHADE NO SBUSTANCE NOTHING, ALL SHE DOES IS ASK WHY I AM LURKING AND CONSTANTLY PUT ME IN THE NULL CATEGORY SINCE THE START OF THE GAME FOR LITERRALY NO REASON, THIS IS NOT TOWN PLAY SHADE SHADE SHADE

[BlackVoid]

You should probably vote her so Jaack can state intent. I really want to get the claim out so we can move to the next step of figuring out whether we buy it.

[Creature]

Currently at this:

Raskolnikov
goodmorning
Hoopla

Jaack
MichelSableheart Creature
BlackVoid
VictorDeAngelo
CloudKicker

I Am Innocent
Sotty7
MariaR

[Creature]

Mean't to strike out goodmorning

[Creature]

Currently at this:

Raskolnikov

goodmorning

Hoopla

Jaack
MichelSableheart Creature
BlackVoid
VictorDeAngelo
CloudKicker

I Am Innocent
Sotty7
MariaR

[Creature]

What's your opinion on Hoopla?