Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[aronagrundy]

Right, and my vote's on you because I want to see you get lynched. I'm not attacking you on your logic (minus the tunneling thing), I'm attacking you for not backing up any of your claims. That quote you provided doesn't help, because I wanted actual examples not a general claim. Thor was the one that brought up that karnos had already shared a townread despite saying he wasn't going to do so, not you iirc.

You could be trying to lynch town!thor, or trying to bus!thor, but I'm going to vote you for an empty case regardless. Like I said, I'm much more unsure about thor, but I'm going with my strongest scumread right now, which is you.

[aronagrundy]

That being said, I agree that if you flip town, then thor's interactions with you d1 look like a failed buddy attempt.

[aronagrundy]

actually no that doesn't feel right. Clearly he would have failed at buddying you if you wanted him dead. What would being dismissive of you even accomplish? If he was so caught up on getting you to trust him, he would want to respond.

[Saru]

You could be trying to lynch town!thor, or trying to bus!thor, but I'm going to vote you for an empty case regardless. Like I said, I'm much more unsure about thor, but I'm going with my strongest scumread right now, which is you.

So if Thor got more votes, would you vote him instead? Not sure how you can be "much more" unsure about someone, but still have someone else as your strongest scumread. Your thought process is off here, and doesn't make me feel good about you.

actually no that doesn't feel right. Clearly he would have failed at buddying you if you wanted him dead. What would being dismissive of you even accomplish? If he was so caught up on getting you to trust him, he would want to respond.

No one says he isn't responding, because he does respond to my questions for him and my accusations, for that matter. But his responses to me seem to come off as too gentle. Like he gives Karnos a hard time if Karnos accuses him of something, but I usually don't get the same treatment. It just feels wrong and slimy.

And it's also interesting to note that while the wagon on me built up, Thor never really attempted to derail it or stick up for me. For all the town read he gives me, I found it odd how Thor stayed his hand in coming to my aid. Even a simple "hey guys, Saru probably isn't scum because X Y Z" would have sufficed. Like he's low-key ok with me being lynched, although he town reads me.

[aronagrundy]

Ok let me rephrase then: I feel confident about my scumread on you. I do not feel as confident about thor. I think you're caught on the phrase "more unsure."

[Saru]

I actually don't get what you take an issue with. You seem to agree that the tunnel on Karnos is foolish("[Thor] harped too much on Karnos"), but give me a hard time because I give Thor a hard time about that same exact tunnel. Forget for a second about the whole "copying me" point I brought up. Strip that away, and what's your actual issue with my take on Thor's insistence to lynch Karnos? In your own view, it should be nothing, yes? If there is (besides the copying argument), then let me know, because you've lost me now.

I just don't see how my other argument about the buddying/copying would make me scum more than it could possibly make Thor scum for a tunnel, you, yourself don't like. Like your whole thought process confuses me. Even if I had never said Thor was copying me, would you agree he's scummy for harping on Karnos?

[Saru]

Ok let me rephrase then: I feel confident about my scumread on you. I do not feel as confident about thor. I think you're caught on the phrase "more unsure."

Hey now, you said it, not me.

[Foxbird]

Votecount 2.4

karnos

(1) - Thor665

Saru

(3) - aronagrundy, Lowell, ironstove

Thor665

(2) - Saru, karnos

Fire Assassin

(1) - PenguinPower

LmkGuy

(1) - Fire Assassin

Not Voting

(3) - LmkGuy, Nero Cain, AlpacaAlpaca

With

11

players eligible to vote, it’s

6

to lynch!

Day 2 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-09 12:47:28).

Mod Notes:

None!

[Thor665]

So why didn't a claimed PR die and an unclaimed did? Do you think Grey guarded FA?

I did think that until FA claimed info that made that situation opposite.
However his roleblock claim still works within the rather simple narrative of scum roleblocking the suspect townie PR.
I may be wrong - sure, but I don't think I am, and none of that has any bearing on getting him to claim at this second.

@thor: how are you reading saru?

Oh man;

By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

I owe Karnos an apology - apparently that does work to utterly occlude my read and opinion.

I'mma go with 'have obviously been reading him as town for some time now - albeit apparently doing so in a manner so secretive that no one noticed'.

And it's also interesting to note that while the wagon on me built up, Thor never really attempted to derail it or stick up for me.

As long as we ignore me saying the wagon was dumb or asking people to unvote you - yeah, I didn't touch it.

For all the town read he gives me, I found it odd how Thor stayed his hand in coming to my aid. Even a simple "hey guys, Saru probably isn't scum because X Y Z" would have sufficed. Like he's low-key ok with me being lynched, although he town reads me.

You mean defense like this?

So my response post is so bad as to need a call out, and Saru is scum for the brilliant case of "in general" and you're going to stick on Saru as opposed to coming at me?

Or this?

Like right now I am leaning invest Thor/Saru, Prot Nero/Ice, and killing any of the lurkers.

Make it a kill Karnos and drop Saru for PP or Grey and I'm good with this.

Or this?

Ugh...I hate agreeing with Iron and I feel icky voting with karnos.

VOTE: Saru

Then...don't?

And, while we're at it, you're complainign that I didn't question your push on me - while *still* dodging the question I asked both you and Ice - wherein I asked you to back up what thoughts I "copied" because if I copied your thoughts, then by that same definition you copied mine - which makes your push silly, and I've straight up said as much to you and you refused to engage and throw this dreck at me like it means anything.

I have absolutely called you on your bad case - what the hell are you smoking?

[Thor665]

And also you apparently forgot that I called you out on a misrep too - and again you ducked responding to it, but I guess if we pretend things didn't happen then your issues with me make sense

[Nero Cain]

Can I get bullet cases on Saru and Karnos?

[Thor665]

Karnos case in a nutshell;

States that townreads should not be revealed so as to hinder scum (does note a handful of reasonable exceptions - like defending a townread from lynch)
Vote moves onto a wagon in an opportunistic manner.
Is asked why - because vote looks opportunistic.
Defends self by claiming he was sheeping a town read (doesn't clarify if actually believes scum read - though later scum reads slot for unassociated things).
Is called on this.
Flails.

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

[Lowell]

I tend to think FA's obstinance is a town-tell and I don't really see the utility in him claiming at this point. If penguin thinks his claim would prove something I'd like to hear it.

@Nero, the case on saru is that we nearly lynched him yesterday as a compromise candidate, only to have a new wagon form out of nowhere on a complete lurker at the last minute. At no point during the day prior to that did I see any wagon form that fast. I admit it's circumstantial but it's also legit. Basically, what about saru's D1 play would create the urgency with which his wagon was derailed unless scum was doing it for some reason.

[Saru]

So my response post is so bad as to need a call out, and Saru is scum for the brilliant case of "in general" and you're going to stick on Saru as opposed to coming at me?

This wasn't much of a defense of me more than it was an attack on Grey for being inconsistent.

Like right now I am leaning invest Thor/Saru, Prot Nero/Ice, and killing any of the lurkers.

Make it a kill Karnos and drop Saru for PP or Grey and I'm good with this.

Not sure how saying to drop me out of being investigated is stopping my wagon?

Ugh...I hate agreeing with Iron and I feel icky voting with karnos.

VOTE: Saru

Then...don't?

Again, you're not saying "don't vote Saru" here explicitly. Note the first sentence of the Penguin quote, that's what you're referring to when you say "Then...don't?" You're more confused that Penguin is voting with people he hates agreeing with and feels icky about than confused about his voting me.

These examples don't really mean anything in regards to my actual wagon from D1.

And, while we're at it, you're complaining that I didn't question your push on me - while *still* dodging the question I asked both you and Ice - wherein I asked you to back up what thoughts I "copied" because if I copied your thoughts, then by that same definition you copied mine - which makes your push silly, and I've straight up said as much to you and you refused to engage and throw this dreck at me like it means anything.

No, I know you're questioning my push onto you (you're doing it right now lmfao) and that helps to take away the buddying perception I have of you. Even if I didn't have the buddying feelings that come from using the same arguments(regardless of who said what first), my main issue with you is still your push onto Karnos, which seems like it's possibly going nowhere. In fact, you summed up your case about Karnos in the post above this, so if people read it and still aren't convinced, would you be willing to stop chasing Karnos for the time being, because there isn't much you can do at that point if people won't listen, yeah?

Knowing that an experienced player like Grey was silly enough to tunnel me and still flipped town actually works in your favor. But I'd like to know if you'll ever drop Karnos if people just don't see/agree with what you're saying.

[Lowell]

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

Also, this from thor about saru makes me think thor is one of his buddies. Not particularly subtle deflection. Looks like they can't decided whether to bus each other.

[Saru]

@Nero, the case on saru is that we nearly lynched him yesterday as a compromise candidate, only to have a new wagon form out of nowhere on a complete lurker at the last minute. At no point during the day prior to that did I see any wagon form that fast. I admit it's circumstantial but it's also legit. Basically, what about saru's D1 play would create the urgency with which his wagon was derailed unless scum was doing it for some reason.

Yeah, this isn't reasoning I see town!Lowell using. This is a weak reason to vote the leading wagon. Also, you conveniently ignore my post(811) about you where I ask about your other lynches and where I point out how my wagon couldn't have dissipated because I'm scum, but because of the circumstances at hand.

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

Also, this from thor about saru makes me think thor is one of his buddies. Not particularly subtle deflection. Looks like they can't decided whether to bus each other.

Oh, really? But I thought that my "buddies" were the ones who were trying to derail my wagon from D1, no? Thor never makes an attempt at this, as I pointed out previously.

Your only looking for reasons to support your scum read of me at this point, rather than having any legitimate ones. I can't see how someone like you can lurk and then come back and be like "oh I think the leading wagon is a great choice because...no case or reason...just a feeling." You have no worries or commentary about other events or players? Like you literally admit you have no case on me, but are still voting me. I'm praying for this town that you're scum, because if you're town and using this kind of reasoning, then so help us god.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

[Saru]

Like, holy shit, Lowell's ISO is not only dismal, but his last two posts are so herp derp...I can't even. This scum lurker 101 needs to be lynched.

[Thor665]

I just read a series of posts wherein one player explains how I'm not defending him, then another suggests I'm town for defending him.
Sweet Christmas, derps.

@Saru - you're still ducking defending your weak case and now you're acting like I *am* coming at your case, while still ducking it and then still somehow suggesting some weird issue. You weren't this dancy with Karnos, why are you poncing around me while other people are selling this derp buddy thing that you are *also* selling. It's not coming from my direction at all.

[Saru]

@Saru - you're still ducking defending your weak case and now you're acting like I *am* coming at your case, while still ducking it and then still somehow suggesting some weird issue. You weren't this dancy with Karnos, why are you poncing around me while other people are selling this derp buddy thing that you are *also* selling. It's not coming from my direction at all.

What? I'm not ducking anything or being dancy. Did you read what I said? My case for you had two parts: the Karnos tunnel and the buddying. I clearly said that if I didn't feel you were buddying me, I would still be confused why you're tunneling Karnos when there's no indication he's going to be lynched. Are you just waiting for people to magically hop on the Karnos wagon or something? Serious question.

[Lowell]

@Saru- As the "leading wagon" you had one vote. Now you have two. Yesterday I did you far worse. That all of a sudden this bothers you says more about you than me.

Also stuff like this: "I'm praying for this town that you're scum, because if you're town and using this kind of reasoning, then so help us god," I hate more than anything. If you're town, vote who you think is scum, don't coach. At best this is a deflection so that if you get your way, and I'm lynched, you can say "oh, well, he was a terrible player anyway, so good riddance." If you lynch a "bad" player who flips town, that's your fault, not theirs.

[Saru]

@Saru- As the "leading wagon" you had one vote. Now you have two. Yesterday I did you far worse. That all of a sudden this bothers you says more about you than me.

What the fuck kind of logic is this. You did me far worse? What the hell? You're railing on a person who has already had a wagon on them and then claimed VT. Like, for fucks sake, how can you even wonder why my wagon would dissipate? We were given an extension, and people took advantage of that to vote elsewhere. Why are you so keen on ignoring my post where I address all this? This is the second time you've done this. What bothers me is that you're actively ignoring what I'm saying and then acting like I shouldn't be upset or bothered.

Also stuff like this: "I'm praying for this town that you're scum, because if you're town and using this kind of reasoning, then so help us god," I hate more than anything. If you're town, vote who you think is scum, don't coach. At best this is a deflection so that if you get your way, and I'm lynched, you can say "oh, well, he was a terrible player anyway, so good riddance." If you lynch a "bad" player who flips town, that's your fault, not theirs.

Guess what, I'm voting you. I'm not coaching anyone. If I were coaching, I'd tell you to stop being so stupid, but I know that town!Lowell is more reasonable than this. lol @ "deflection." I guess then that Grey was scum who was "deflecting" when he voted malp for the sole reason of being a lurker, like yourself.

[Nero Cain]

@Nero, the case on saru is that we nearly lynched him yesterday as a compromise candidate, only to have a new wagon form out of nowhere on a complete lurker at the last minute.

but it was me that started the Mal wagon and I am 100% not scum. Was I being sheeped by scum? Prob. Who, if any, were the scum sheeping me?

[Nero Cain]

I mean coming into today my plan was to vote Grey since I thought that the Mal town flip meant that scum were likely the ones that were against the Mal wagon and then voted him i.e, Grey and Stove.

BUT STOVE IS ALIVE AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED HIM YET!

When I saw that Grey died it made me pause just a tad and I wanted to see how things went a little bit. If I have to choose between Karnos/Saru I'm going to go with Karnos since the Saru case seems like wank.

[karnos]

Karnos case in a nutshell;

A. States that townreads should not be revealed so as to hinder scum (does note a handful of reasonable exceptions - like defending a townread from lynch)
B. Vote moves onto a wagon in an opportunistic manner.
C. Is asked why - because vote looks opportunistic.
D. Defends self by claiming he was sheeping a town read (doesn't clarify if actually believes scum read - though later scum reads slot for unassociated things).
E. Is called on this.
F. Flails.

A-F

added to above for clarity.


Haha. Very funny.

Nice try at being deceptive, Thor. B, C, D occurred first. Then A. As such, there was zero logical reason to include the prior event as a listed exception

because I already did it

. Not the other way around, as you seem to be trying to imply.

Interesting thing though.

This is Thor's entry to the thread:

Greetings all, read the last two pages (or a page and a half, however you care to parse it)

Unvote: AlpacaAlpaca
Vote: Karnos

Notice this is post 356, on page 15 of the thread. So he read the prior two pages of the thread, and ignored everything else as irrelevant apparently.

My vote on tracer (Thor's slot) was 300, first post of page 13 in the thread.

I find it very interesting that Thor arbitrarily decided to read from that point on. Almost seems like he knew he wanted to push a case on me, so he just read back far enough to craft an argument, and nothing more.

I also find it interesting that he calls it an opportunistic wagon, yet he claims to have not read earlier than that point. How does he know it's opportunistic? Maybe there is an AMAZING argument in favor or wagoning tracer on page 11, but Thor just missed it because it came before the point where he started reading?


I'm pretty sure Thor is scum. Saru might also be scum.

[Thor665]

What? I'm not ducking anything or being dancy. Did you read what I said? My case for you had two parts: the Karnos tunnel and the buddying. I clearly said that if I didn't feel you were buddying me, I would still be confused why you're tunneling Karnos when there's no indication he's going to be lynched. Are you just waiting for people to magically hop on the Karnos wagon or something? Serious question.

Your issue is predicated on a belief that I'm not pushing the wagon (wrong) and that no reads will change (debatable) and thus is a meaningless question.

Nice try at being deceptive, Thor. B, C, D occurred first. Then A. As such, there was zero logical reason to include the prior event as a listed exception

because I already did it

. Not the other way around, as you seem to be trying to imply.

Oddly, no matter what order they are done in they still reflect hypocrisy.
So, sure, shuffle them however you care to.

I

I also find it interesting that he calls it an opportunistic wagon, yet he claims to have not read earlier than that point. How does he know it's opportunistic? Maybe there is an AMAZING argument in favor or wagoning tracer on page 11, but Thor just missed it because it came before the point where he started reading?

Funny how you quote me putting things in the "right order" there

If there was an amazing argument - no one ever claimed it existed.
And, oddly, it didn't, and I was right, so...I'm not even sure what point you think you're making here.
In a theory world you got a town PM and made a decent case and didn't do the scummy thing I said you did? Okay, yeah, in that world my push looksbad.
But it's not that world - so why are you talking about it and using it as a scum tell that I'm not living in the make believe story?