The real folk blues [Canceled]

[Frozen Angel]

Spike: I don't like this, He made it to easy to trace him. This guy is to smart for that.
Faye : Maybe its a false trail.

Vote Count 1.16

Maker_of_Zanos (9): RachMarie , The Ascended Masters , SpyreX , Expedience , Vifam , rb , Skrub , Killthestory , DiamondSentinel
Skrub (6): grapes , SirCakez , Drixx , Vedith , Cerberus v666 , Maker_of_Zanos
Expedience (3): Nosferatu , DrippingGoofball , Road Kamelot
RachMarie (2): Klingoncelt , mhsmith0
Drixx (1): Nero Cain
DiamondSentinel (1): Albert B. Rampage
Albert B. Rampage (1): Panzerjager
Nosferatu (1): Giovanni il Pellegrino
Vifam (1): MathBlade
rb (1): pisskop

Not Voting (6): randomidget , Space Dandy , Mirhawk , PeregrineV , davesaz , kraska77

With 32 players alive it takes 17 votes to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2016-10-29 06:10:00)

Note: Skrub is V/LA.

[Skrub]

I said that from your perspective I am voting you because you are the most popular wagon. That is the way you see it. If you have a scumread on me for that, you must also accept that I can have a genuine scum read on you for voting the most popular wagon. Also, I said "at worst". I do not know whether you genuinely scumread me (I'm not telepathic) but I know I genuinely scumread you. You are free to cast shade on that but if you do then you must also accept that others can have genuine suspicions about your read on me.

Your case is slowly degrading into outright misrep.

~Maker

I am phone posting here. I may have time to go in depth tomorow. Here is the Skrub stuff I noticed.

I have skimmed your posts and got a scumread. By analysing I mean analysing in more depth. Notice I said "analyse Skrub

more

".
It is better than nothing as voting a scumread is better than not voting at all. I will wait for my other head's opinion on the matter. Your post is a very weak rebuttal.

~Maker

You gave a weak post without any real content. It didn't give me much to reply to. What exactly did you scum read in my posts?

It was more gut from your tone from just skimming your posts. Like I said, I will go into more detail when I explain in depth.

Skrub's vote on MoZ is so bad

What's bad about it?

Just seemed to me like you saw the wagon building up on you and just voted for the brand new counterwagon cuz you were in a shitty spot.


Why do you think SirCakez is scum

Nah, that's what maker did. I'll go in depth on my Cakez read later

I'll go in depth on my Skrub read later.

In all honesty, you accuse me of doing a lot of things that you do yourself.

Your posts seem very like you voted the most popular wagon and attempted a justification.

Vifam picked up on it and you are now accusing me.
At best, you are no better than me. At worst, this is outright hypocrisy.

If something is scummy when I do it, it's scummy when you do it

. You are not somehow exempt from being scumread by your own tells.

~Maker

How did I misrep you?

[rb]

I wanna hear more about scum sircakez

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Mhsmith this game has 30 players aint nobody gonna read ur walls

Don't wirry; I'm doing walls sooner or later.
~Zanos

[Maker_of_Zanos]

I think Sircakez and maker of zanos are scum. Especially maker. Nothing about him screams town to me.

VOTE: maker

I'm still not sure why there's a wagon on me, but if you guys have any questions for me I'll answer all of them. This weekend has been much busier than I expected but I'll finally be able to be more active tonight.

This is an opportunistic vote. "Yes, let's give a generic read on the other competing lynch wagon besides me." That's exactly what this post is.
~Zanos

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Sure. He's wagon hopping like crazy, and when the wagon formed on him he tried way too hard to seem like he didn't care by self voting. But that just made him seem more desperate. Plus he made this horrible post earlier

Actually though, you should probably unvote me.

I'm going to bed before I dig my hole any deeper, its literally 4am here

Worried that you will be lynched so early?

A bit, in large games once a wagon forms on you its difficult to get it off.

seriously tho enuff
lets focus on expedience and spyrex
whaddup expedience got any reads?

Hey, my reads are:
mhsmith0: town
nc: scum

I liked mhsmith0's posts, he seems relaxed and town

NC's entrance was kinda feeble / strained. He doesn't really think House and I are scum together I'm sure, even if he is town.

House / rb are unreadable to me atm.

Everyone else didn't do enough to tell

You feel overanalytical.

~Zanos

PS: BTD6 is either ~BTD6 or ~Maker; I am pretty much everything else.

How did you get overly analytical from that? My reads had pretty simple explanations.

Alright, thanks for actually telling me.

Perhaps questionably obtained reads would've been a better choice. This thread is a mess of ****posting so I don't see where you get so many reads from unless you are scum.

Pedit: I'm good w/ an EXP wagon.
VOTE: Expedience

also this is scum

i thought the same until i realized this was lynchbait that scum would jump on

His reasoning is obviously fake trying to find excuses to join my wagon.

That should be a red flag for your read being wrong on me, not the other way around.

What is this? An OMGUS cuz I voted you? Trust me, I've made worse reads & votes before.
~Zanos

More generic reasons and nitpickeyness.

[pisskop]

I agree. Lets let him do things.

[Maker_of_Zanos]

VOTE: Skrub

You seem to not like votes on yourself with little justification. You voted us with little justification yourself. I am not entirely sure whether you genuinely scumread us or are looking for reasons to vote us to push our wagon. Ircher mentioned in the PT that Town need to look for genuine scumminess, be more open minded, and stop voting us for reasons that don't hold water.

I will analyse Skrub more later when I have more time but I already scumread this slot and this vote is better than nothing.

~Maker

This is weak sauce. The fact that you said you need to analyze me later implied that you voted me without even reading my posts. And then you said this vote is "better than nothing" which feels like you don't even really believe that I'm scum. This guy needs to be lynched.

As if your vote was any better. Gut reads are fine occassionally; obviously, we are going to review your posts to make a final read, but your posts currently feel scum-motivatec & we dont have the time to go through the ZISO immediately.
~Zanos

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Spoiler: Real Folks - Scrub ISO - Day 1

1. 591 --> Clarifies "Dont care comment"; annoyed with scumread for overanalysis, etc -->

The first part really doesn't feel that great; I also assumed that he meant he didn't care about the votes. The paranoid tone just reads as scum-motivated to me. On the other hand, the other half of the post feels like genuine frustration from town rather than scum having found a convenient excuse to post less. So, yeah, I am mixed here. --

Neutral (+1)

2. 1139 --> Votes us and continues to question the formation of the scrub wagon -->

Once again, I see the townie frustration mixed in with a convenient vote. I agree with Skrub that the wagon formation at the beginning was based off of some pretty bad reasoning, but I disagree with the way he decided to plop down a vote on us knowing full and well that the wagon on us and him were competing with each other. So, the question is motive -- Town frustration or convenient alternate wagon or both? It's hard to tell with this post. --

Null (0)

3. 1141 --> Reasoning for voting our slot -->

Really don't like this post because all the reasoning is pretty generic. Changing votes a lot, especially early-on in the game, is by no means scummy; are we to be static and have unchanging reads throughout the game? Your vote is your weapon, and there is no reason not to have dynamic reads as more information is given. The idea behind wagon-hopping being scummy is that you try to find the most convenient wagons to be on, which I would argue is not the case for this slot though I am obviously biased. Self-votes are always bad, but people still do them; reading things such as that are hard to read and the way you reasoned that amounts basically to generic reasoning and WIFOM. Finally, the post you quoted -- Yes, it was bad in hindsight, but what makes you feel it was made with malicious intent. I later clarified & admitted I messed up there though the majority of you simply called it backtracking to reinforce your cases on this slot. Since when are townies perfect? We're not looking just at wirds; we're looking at actions and feelings, motivations and ideals. -

Neutral (-1)

4. 1156] --> Nitpicking my other head's post -->

This is what is called confirmation bias; you are so intent on showing we are scum that you feel the need to just be nitpickey about our posts. I don't blame you.... too much..... -

Null (0)

ISO Score: 0
Base Score: 0
Bias Score: +1.0
Final Score: +1.0 (Neutral-Town)

I actually read this slot as tunnelled on this slot and frustrated with the wagon on him; looking at the ISO, I disagree with my other head's idea that Scrub is scum; the lack of noise brings out the frustration in Scrub's posts. The one thing I want to watch is how Skrub's reads evolve especially after this post.

~Zanos

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Spoiler: Real Folks - Diamond ISO - Day 1

1. 88 --> Says game hasnt started & therefore people should deal with nonsensical posts -->

This borders more on a playstyle issue I feel than an alignment issue, but nonetheless, it is worth addressing: Since when does spam help town? Fluff, spam, troll posts, and off-topic posts never help town and in fact, makes it harder for people to understand the context around certain posts cuz all the other posts are just noise that fills the thread. So, as an addendum, why do you feel a need to **ENCOURAGE** such posts rather than... Play the game. I understand its a game and people want to have fun, but making posts just to make posts is not healthy for the game, and actively encouraging others to do so is just .... bad.... -

Null (0)

2. 630 --> Coughs up a scumread on Drixx cuz House replaced out -->

I don't like this either; did you ever stop to consider WHY House decided to /out? And regardless, HOW does that make Drixx by any means scummy? Like, this is just scumreading someone to scumread them. I understand that we all do bad stuff like this occassionally, but we should all strive to scumread on something that has a little bit more meat on it. Disclaimer: I'm prob. guilty of stupid scumreads like this too. -

Neutral (-1)

3. 636 & 638 --> Felt Yume vs. House was SvS or Sv3p -->

Ugh... Once again, I have to question whether you're always like this or are doing this deliberately. Even if nothing felt town-motivated, WHY does that make it implicitly a fight with scum. If anything, it was null cuz it mainly dealt with out of thread stuff. What this truly feels like is a reason to try to get someone policy-lynched and I dont really approve of that. -

Neutral (-1)

4. 734 --> Scumreads players for arguing against policy-lynching (in particular, calls it a scum-buddy defense) -->

Are you doing this on purpose or are you just always like this. This is like a super reachy conclusion to make --> You suggest that A should be PL'd but X, Y, and Z state that policy-lynching isn't a good idea; therefore, X, Y, Z are scum defending scum-buddy A. Basically, an OMGUS in disguise alongside pre-flip associations. Not to mention that X, Y, and Z are coming from a more sound theoretical standpoint. It's non-logical assumptions like this that makes me annoyed with you. -

Scum (-2)

5. 596 -->

True; I think I've only played against you once and I believe you were in a hydra that game. But your reasonings for reads this game is attrocious imo. -

Null (0)

ISO Score: -4
Base Score: -0.8
Bias Score: -0.2
Final Score: -1.0 (Neutral-Scum)

Main question --> Does Diamond ALWAYS have this far-fetched and bad logical reasoning for doing stuff? Or is he faking ineptness this game?

~Zanos

[Frozen Angel]

Giovanni il Pellegrino asked for replacing out; searching for a replacement!

[Skrub]

I wanna hear more about scum sircakez

I'm not really sure about him anymore. I didn't like his iso because all of his posts are fluff, but people post like that as town and as scum so I guess that's not alignment indicative. But then he started saying that I'm obvscum and need to be lynched without really saying why he thought that. He made a couple of posts like that but it didn't feel like he was really trying to get me lynched. It felt weird

[SirCakez]

I'm gonna do my Maker ISO after this

there's like 10 slots either not voting anything useful or just not voting, i wanna kill one of those more than maker

Like I said earlier
why PL when we can SL instead?
I want them gone too but it's better to lynch legit scummy people then useless people.

DS is a mild scum read for me at this point. Not a huge priority sort but I don't see the obv!town there. MoZ just seems bad rather than obv!wolf to me, and the IMO self-vote continues along that vein. Some of that may simply be me being over-sensitive to that after watching Ranger pull similar shit as town in open 642 (including the shitty self-vote), but I'm starting to come around the idea that shit like that actually does come more often from town, even though it never ever ever should. In this case, it's conceivable that they're scum/SK giving up, but it's also plausible that they're town giving up. I know Ircher (who I think was making those posts) is bugged by being a lynchbait type, so I can reasonably see him getting pissy and pulling a stunt like that out of frustration at being wagoned. Obviously it could be him pulling a scam and faking it, but I just don't see why it's wolf-indicative instead of essentially null. I'd still much rather wagon RachMarie at this point.

The self-vote is tactical and (mostly) not motivated by frustration

They're pissed off to an extent but only because they think their play isn't any worse here compared to when they're town, and they should be able to get away with it.

I'm not saying all self-votes are scum, in fact in my experience most I've seen are town. But reading something like that should always be based on the way in which the player self-votes, and here it was fake because they weren't even close to being lynched, they claimed not to understand why they were being wagoned, and they kept posting all this "qq i always get lynched" stuff drawing out the AtE when town would've just gone away or unvoted if they were actually frustrated. You can't just look at it like "they performed an action which was null in itself".

No, I think the self-vote was NAI
Especially considering it's Ircher as part of the hydra, who usually gets super frustrated for stupid reasons
And I've done stupid things like that before as town, even when not close to being lynched.

I think Sircakez and maker of zanos are scum. Especially maker. Nothing about him screams town to me.

VOTE: maker

I'm still not sure why there's a wagon on me, but if you guys have any questions for me I'll answer all of them. This weekend has been much busier than I expected but I'll finally be able to be more active tonight.

Still waiting for you to talk about your scumread on me. I am very intrigued

so he thinks drixx + skrub are scum, i don't see that combo making much sense unless we somehow got all town on both those wagons. i guess there's 30 players so it's possible, but at 1 point it was looking like it'd be a wagon-competition between those 2 - i feel like if one of them are scum, the other shouldn't be scum

Considering how big the game is, it's highly likely it's multiball or at least a 3rd party of some sort. So those two don't necessarily have to be scum together.

VOTE: Skrub

You seem to not like votes on yourself with little justification. You voted us with little justification yourself. I am not entirely sure whether you genuinely scumread us or are looking for reasons to vote us to push our wagon. Ircher mentioned in the PT that Town need to look for genuine scumminess, be more open minded, and stop voting us for reasons that don't hold water.

I will analyse Skrub more later when I have more time but I already scumread this slot and this vote is better than nothing.

~Maker

This is weak sauce. The fact that you said you need to analyze me later implied that you voted me without even reading my posts. And then you said this vote is "better than nothing" which feels like you don't even really believe that I'm scum. This guy needs to be lynched.

This is total bullshit
Maker has obviously read their posts from the way their post was worded.
And I have no clue how he could have gotten from "better than nothing" to "don't believe I'm scum"
I'm not even townreading Maker (despite this and my bit about the self-vote being NAI) but this seems like completely made up reasoning to back up his vote.

I wanna hear more about scum sircakez

I'm not really sure about him anymore. I didn't like his iso because all of his posts are fluff, but people post like that as town and as scum so I guess that's not alignment indicative. But then he started saying that I'm obvscum and need to be lynched without really saying why he thought that. He made a couple of posts like that but it didn't feel like he was really trying to get me lynched. It felt weird

aha thank you
I was fluffing in the pregame yes
I said why I was scumreading you (and just added some more above), so I'm not sure how you're getting that I "didn't really say why I thought that"?

[Skrub]

@Maker That's one of the weakest "cases" I've ever seen. You just said that you think my posts are generic. That's not inherently scummy and its not like there's much I can say to defend myself. I don't think my posts have been generic and I'm sure you'll say that in your opinion they look that way. All I can say to that is okay. That doesn't really invite any discussion and its a safe way of casting shade.

[Skrub]

@sirckaez You said one of my posts didn't feel genuine to you. So that one thing = skrub is obvscum? How does that make sense?

[SirCakez]

Ok yeah Maker_of_Zanos's ISO is pretty awful.
My issue is Ircher is one doing the posting mainly and he's SUPER lynchbaity. I'm awful at discerning whether he's Ircher being Ircher or Ircher being scum. And BTD6 is lynchbaity too.
I would put them at a scumlean I guess for the vote hopping, which isn't something that I wouldn't write off as their lynchbaity-ness. But their awkwardness....yeah.

@sirckaez You said one of my posts didn't feel genuine to you. So that one thing = skrub is obvscum? How does that make sense?

I said your early vote was overexplained + your reaction to being wagoned was bad
Also I don't think I said this, but you contributed basically no content besides "OMG why am I being wagoned???" after that early vote.

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Spoiler: Real Folks - KTS ISO - Day 1

1. 378 --> Brings up multiball -->

An understandable conclusion, but at the same time, a bit too much on the side of assumptions -- What makes you feel so strongly that the game is multiball? Exaggeration or another reason? -

Neutral (-1)

2. 380 --> Comments on Expediance's VT claim -->

Good point that is brought up here imo. I want to know more about your reasoning to claim so early @Expediance. --

Neutral (+1)

3. 1210 --> Basically a readslist -->

I've seriously never seen KTS this productive. I especially like the Scrub read here and none of this feels contrived. -

Very Town (+3)

ISO Score: +3
Base Score: +1.0
Bias Score: +1.0
Final Score: +2.0 (Lean Town)

KTS is being KTS for the most part, but gut makes me think KTS is town this game.

~Zanos

[SirCakez]

Ok yeah Maker_of_Zanos's ISO is pretty awful.
My issue is Ircher is one doing the posting mainly and he's SUPER lynchbaity. I'm awful at discerning whether he's Ircher being Ircher or Ircher being scum. And BTD6 is lynchbaity too.
I would put them at a scumlean I guess for the vote hopping, which isn't something that I would write off as their lynchbaity-ness. But their awkwardness....yeah.

@sirckaez You said one of my posts didn't feel genuine to you. So that one thing = skrub is obvscum? How does that make sense?

I said your early vote was overexplained + your reaction to being wagoned was bad
Also I don't think I said this, but you contributed basically no content besides "OMG why am I being wagoned???" after that early vote.

EBWOP

[Skrub]

Ok yeah Maker_of_Zanos's ISO is pretty awful.
My issue is Ircher is one doing the posting mainly and he's SUPER lynchbaity. I'm awful at discerning whether he's Ircher being Ircher or Ircher being scum. And BTD6 is lynchbaity too.
I would put them at a scumlean I guess for the vote hopping, which isn't something that I wouldn't write off as their lynchbaity-ness. But their awkwardness....yeah.

@sirckaez You said one of my posts didn't feel genuine to you. So that one thing = skrub is obvscum? How does that make sense?

I said your early vote was overexplained + your reaction to being wagoned was bad
Also I don't think I said this, but you contributed basically no content besides "OMG why am I being wagoned???" after that early vote.

What was bad about my reaction? And what content have you contributed?

[Maker_of_Zanos]

@sirckaez You said one of my posts didn't feel genuine to you. So that one thing = skrub is obvscum? How does that make sense?

Read my spoiler on you, thanks.

There's two kinds of reads: gut/reactionary reads & iso reads. The ISO reads are what matters in the long run whereas the gut reads are potientally biased.

The gut reads or reactionary reads are the ones I post as I go through the thread; they tend to deal with some kind of issue, but sometimes, I'm just scanning through & get a biased perspective on things. They deal with the stuff that catches my attention the most which 70% of times means posts involving myself although there are other posts that occassionally catch me.

ISO reads let me go back through a person's post without all the surrounding noise and reevaluate. Sometimes, they result in the same conclusion, but a good number of times, my position changes after rereading the posts in isolations.

90% of the reads I provide are gut/reactionary reads. 10% or less are ISO reads and they are almost always put in spoilers.

[Maker_of_Zanos]

Oh, and that was:
~Zanos

[SirCakez]

It didn't actually try to progress anything. Just asking why you're being wagoned then leaving isn't town at all.
Not that much admittedly, but not the basically nothing you had contributed at that point.

[Vifam]

MoZ why do you set up your arguments like math equations lmfao

[Maker_of_Zanos]

For future reference if I do readlists.

You could ignore the #s prob but I keep them there because they are potientally useful.
~Zanos

[Skrub]

It didn't actually try to progress anything. Just asking why you're being wagoned then leaving isn't town at all.
Not that much admittedly, but not the basically nothing you had contributed at that point.

How does that not progress anything? I want people explain their votes so I can understand who actually believes I'm scum and who was just being opportunistic. And I left because I have a paper due tomorrow and I didn't start it until last night. Up to this point you've still done basically nothing.