STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[Klingoncelt]

~Drixx

P-Edit - KC; you know I love you. Town you would not have let getting blown off stop you from pressing it. Remember that game where you and Varsoon both claimed miller and I told the game who was scum and exactly what you guys were doing?

One of Wake's games ... something about music in the title...

Every game is different, every one has a different cast of characters. In this game I'm not feeling at all cheerful or silly like I did in that one.

[Klingoncelt]

could you test your vote now?

I guess so -

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[Reasonably Rational]

KC - Something was off about the response to the DGB thing. If I were KC, there's no way someone could claim to be a scum to me and live. KC barely pushed it. That isn't a town response, imo.


~Drixx

Liar.

I pushed it.

It was blown off as a gambit.

Everyone Townreads her.

So despite my being convinced that she's Scum, she'll likely make it to endgame.

People probably wouldn't have blown it off if you has bothered voting her.

Which you didn't do.

:/

-Cerb

I COULDN'T VOTE ON DAY ONE!!!!!

I tried voting for Grapes, and then tried to vote McMenno.

The votes never appeared. DGB took credit for that.

Then suddenly I had 2 votes on Firebringer, even though I didn't vote him.

Well, there were votes with my name on them, at least, so I took a chance and voted for Sir Cakes. The next VC the votes stayed on FB, but the VC after that they moved to Cakes. And the hammer came soon after.

So tell me, why would I vote for DGB at that stage in the game?

I did forget about your inability to vote, because I didn't notice it until whenever someone mentioned it. Understandable from your perspective to not vote there, but you should have let people KNOW why you weren't voting there then. I'll need to look at the timeline there again, I don't remember when it was that people started mentioning your lack of a vote.

-Cerb

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Can you talk to me about Creature? He's the biggest difference we have (aside from fire which I need time on).

I am at NC Creature Cakez klingon CoolDog X, add DGB/Farside if wrong?

Drixx, you think that Mastina's team is wrong. What did you think of mine?

Cerby you can answer this too...

OMG I just want to go away and do something else. What composition did you have in mind? Did Drixx even say that he thinks mastinas team is wrong? I mean, I guess that's implicit in the places where the reads differ, so dumb question.

-Cerb

There you go.

Cerby?

[Shiro]

@Farside, Please don't end the day if you can.

I want to hear from DGB why we have no alliance. I need to get in sync with Beeboy. I also need to do the reread I promised Shiro.

You want to ally with me?

WE were supposed to be allied today. What gives?

I was unclear on the timing, I just sent Varsoon the request.

Not sure I believe this.

You should have picked me when you had the chance

hmpf
*folds arms*

[Reasonably Rational]

Can you talk to me about Creature? He's the biggest difference we have (aside from fire which I need time on).

I am at NC Creature Cakez klingon CoolDog X, add DGB/Farside if wrong?

Drixx, you think that Mastina's team is wrong. What did you think of mine?

Cerby you can answer this too...

OMG I just want to go away and do something else. What composition did you have in mind? Did Drixx even say that he thinks mastinas team is wrong? I mean, I guess that's implicit in the places where the reads differ, so dumb question.

-Cerb

There you go.

Cerby?

Lol, I love you titus. NC/Creature were scumspects since yesterday, NC requires more reaxing because it's insubstantiated, Creature's reaDS and vote progression were questions able yesterday, last time I checked. Drixx has gone over the farside and KC suspicions already. We talked about cooldog in our pt yesterday, and I haven't compared his play in SF to his play here to see if you're hitting a false positive there. In either case, he's being replaced, so hopefully we'll be able to get more words out of the replacement. Xkfyu and DGB are both pretty null to me. My only prior experience with Xkfyu was SD2, and I wasn't directly inolved with his early game so can't really say much other than it seems pretty NAI. I like DGBs recent involvemsnt, it's way more than I've ever seen her do...ever. makes me want her to be town.

Nc, I'll answer your stuff in the morning because you're patient unlike Titus, who should habe realized I only said what I did because I compulsively refresh and it was really effortless to make that first post, while this one required a buncha typing from my bed.

-Cerb

[Yume]

Well, here I am. Who wants to join my cause of stopping the Cluster?

[farside22]

Mastin, you're wrong.

I don't care about the mechanical discussion. I care about the fact that discussions about evaluating and/or reevaluating our play yesterday, NOT TODAY (which has obviously been WHOLLY focused on defending ourselves, because I got drawn in and used up all the energy I would have spent doing something productive ) have all been stonewalled.

That's what I mean when I say there's no attempt being made to think.

-Cerb

This isn't happening.

What i mean is your not doing that at all.
What you've done is implode the game with how important your role is, who everyone should pay attention to the event and gave weak reason's for scum reads you have.
I even notice nc asked for you to explain more about grapes and you just avoid that.

[McMenno]

You're right. Self-meta is bad.

~D

A50:

my slot is being voted because people are filled with the recklessness of success, and are therefore unwilling to think.

I am scum.

-Cerb

pedit: Nobody has suggested that mastin isn't town DGB, except for kts in a moment of insanity in the middle of the day yesterday.

drixx has. drixx has suggested that mastin isn't town.

Titus, you don't count?

We're at like L-4 or something right now, which means there are 8 people on the wagon. The only one's who have deigned to speak with us aren't even considering reevaluating, to the point where we tell them about an ability we have and they assume we're lying, rather than considering if that information is possibly true and what it would mean. Nothing else is happening, so of course there's no other wagons. We had 6 votes on us within like 1.5 hours of the day starting.

-Cerb

you having a town event does not mean you're town... stop using this as an argument it's only making you look scummier

Everyone Townreads her.

not me, and with cakez' flips, dgb is a prime traitor suspect

although I'm a bit confused about how it went down. the scumteam obviously knew there was a traitor, and scum!kc would make less sense in that regard, as they could've used cakez to scan kc. note that a cakez lynch was not certain at that point in time

[farside22]

Shiro notes:
Replacement http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go town
Very absent minded and carefree
Homestead http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Mostly just town reads, lots of fluff post and few scum reads. No cases noted ever really made.
DotA mafia. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go Town still no case, fluff and just giving general reads.

Symphonic mafia http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go scum, more aggressive type and making a case for pretty bad reason to. Comes across as more of a jerk to.
Everything is a lie http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go 3rd party lots of prod dodges and just one weak push.

Every a lie 1 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go town same thing of giving out town reads. No cases and fun fluff.

Scum game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Aggressive and weak cases is what I noted.

So basically town Shiro fluff with very little pushes, scum Shiro more aggressive.

I'm pretty happy with my scum read on the spot.

[Shiro]

Hey I can make strong pushes as town, it just happens less often cause I tend to feel less confident. Yea, tis true that I am more agressice as scum because I know what I am doing and I tend to have a set plan in mind but I do make pushes when I feel confident on a read and I feel confident that Almost is scum.

I didn't even play in magical girl btw so why even use that game xD Really hurts that a lot of my recent games are all hydra games, Heck this was going to be a hydra game as well but

[farside22]

Hey I can make strong pushes as town, it just happens less often cause I tend to feel less confident. Yea, tis true that I am more agressice as scum because I know what I am doing and I tend to have a set plan in mind but I do make pushes when I feel confident on a read and I feel confident that Almost is scum.

I didn't even play in magical girl btw so why even use that game xD Really hurts that a lot of my recent games are all hydra games, Heck this was going to be a hydra game as well but

It was the first game I ran across when searching.

I don't use hydra game because it's not as clear cut.
Your case on A50 sucks.

By the way
Beetlejuice

[Creature]

I like meta arguments.

VOTE: Shiro

[Shiro]

From meta stand point Titus can verify that I can be agressive as town when I feel certain Legend of zelda being a game I got in mind where we hydrad and I wanted toogeloo dead as dead can be, in the end I was wrong.

Love or be loved I was tons more agressive than usual when I felt RC was scum though it faded quickly cause I changed my mind. After that the game jsut went down.

If I recall correctly I was in Pun mafia and Denmark as well. It really depends which game you look me at.

Basic upick I thought jml was scum and never let go for the whole duration fo the game till I got him lynched.

So yea greatly depends.

My most agressive though honestly has been when Hydraying with FA.

[Shiro]

ok it just hit me and my mind did a 180

I am an idiot almost is possibly town

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I did a brief reread of a50's ISO last night. I still don't know where you get A50 as scum beyond ardent defense of scum and that looks more like denial.

Meta reads are garbage.

VOTE: Creature

Let's see what happens.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin, you're wrong.

I don't care about the mechanical discussion. I care about the fact that discussions about evaluating and/or reevaluating our play yesterday, NOT TODAY (which has obviously been WHOLLY focused on defending ourselves, because I got drawn in and used up all the energy I would have spent doing something productive ) have all been stonewalled.

That's what I mean when I say there's no attempt being made to think.

-Cerb

This isn't happening.

What i mean is your not doing that at all.
What you've done is implode the game with how important your role is, who everyone should pay attention to the event and gave weak reason's for scum reads you have.
I even notice nc asked for you to explain more about grapes and you just avoid that.

This is also wrong.

We have repeatedly reminded people of aspects of our play which make us as scum nearly impossible. One major aspect of that is our interactions with regards to the SC wagon, and the other (which the majority of the game did not know the details about, and which thus had to be shared) was related to how we handled our role. At the time we decided to divulge our full information regarding our event to OWK mastin was known to be conftown, Yume was known to be sheeping her, you had displayed a great degree of doubt about us, and OWK would, by virtue of paranoia regarding our play with one another in the past, no doubt investigate us if given the opportunity. As scum, it would be suicidal to place oneself in a position where you can guarantee that you'll be checked by a cop that is viewed as conftown. It *might* make sense if we were a godfather, but even then the point of the ability is a selection from multiple options, all of which are bad for scum for different reasons. It would have been effortless for us to claim that the event had a different priority, or different stress limitations, which could have both been used to give scum!us the maximum town benefit of claiming this power without ever actually having to USE the power. Instead, we claimed that it was priority 0, only took +1 stress, AND that we'd be attempting to use it EVERY NIGHT so it would happen ASAP.

The stupidity on our part that would be required for us to engage in that sequence of events is why we keep bringing up the mechanical aspect, beyond the pragmatic factor of it being optimal to take a free cop clear and then lynch us that day if you're paranoid about the accuracy or your results, or cLear us thst night if you're not and give scum an additional conftown to have to deal with.

It isn't the event itself that makes us town. It's the fact that it makes no sense to have backed ourselves into a corner like this regarding it's usage.

Regarding the grapes thing: Answering NCs question required effort. Last night I simply didn't feel like looking at grapes ISO and pointing out the posts where he seems to be thinking things through but in a fashion which dismisses, ignores, or trivializes details which are significant.

You're right that all reasons for reads at this point are weak, but the reasons for scumreading us displayed here are FAR weaker, based on the knowledge of our play the main proponents should have and the actions we've taken, than anything we've said today. I hold that our reasons(and everyone else's) are weak because everything is fundamentally based off day 1 play alone, and thus all reasons are weak.

This comes back to the lack of rigor in investigating and verifying ones own suspicions while demanding greater degrees of justification from those who disagree with you that I made fun of grapes for.

McMenno: please read the above. Drixx has not suggested mastin is not town. Drixx has outlined the existence of a scenario in which mastin would not be town, and dismissed it as nearly impossible(thus the 99% thing). This is a far cry from saying "idk guys, this mastin Yume conftown mason thing is kinda shady and means they might both be scum.", which is what you're implying when you say Drixx has suggested that Mastin might be scum. Please learn to read our posts properly before you attempt to interpret them.

In addition, since you dismissed my absolutely correct point that people are reckless in mafia in the wake of success, let me expand on it: had SC flipped town, those who had disagreed would be haranguing those who pushed it and demanded that they reasses, while becoming more certain of their own reads accuracy. In addition, because there would have been no sense of "getting ahead" ,EVERYONE would have been more cautious voting out of fear of a consecutive mislynch and spent a great deal of time looking at interactions yesterday to determine who to "blame" for the mislynch. However, because SC flipped scum, those who were pushing him (which were the most forceful players in the game ) were emboldened and now assume all their reads are correct, and those who disagree with them are taking the time to reassess.

This means that those who were voting yesterday automatically voted us at the start of today, while those who have differing opinions are being more cautious and NOT voting for things....therefore leading us to this situation where only a few hours after the day opened NOTHING had been discussed but our slot, and nobody was voting anywhere else.

It's reckless and thoughtless. If we end up mislynched here with this approach to the game town will be going into D3 with a late D1 grasp of the game.

I predict that almost no one will bother reading this, and those who do, excepting OWK, will quote at most two things out of context to use against us.

I'll look at NC and grapes sometime today when I'm not feeling lazy.

-Cerb

[Randomnamechange]

To be clear, I will be using the mark to directly show what happened due to an Event from now on.
If something doesn't have that mark, then it happened due to other actions taken.
I'm going to go back and edit the previous phase's event to be this way.

great modding

[There's literally someone who is declaring intent to unilaterally END the day after less than 24 hours, and I'm practically begging people to work on the big problem coming for the finale.

And the thing is.
While I acknowledge that this scum event is indeed a threat.
While I acknowledge that a scum event like this is something ideally dealt with.

It's still mechanics.
And I know what Varsoon thinks about game mechanics, because I know what (almost) every moderator thinks of mechanics, him included:
They're meant to enhance the play of the game.

Not replace it.

What you're doing is an appeal to fear. "Ooh, this big scary mechanics thing is a huge threat". No doubt it is indeed a threat.
But you're missing the picture.
It's still not scumhunting.
It's not the part of the game, which is actually a fundamental part of the game.

So that's why you got so many votes.
Mechanics aren't at the center of this game. Scumhunting is. And they are scumhunting you.
Any time we spend on mechanics is extra, is time we spend using the extras we've been given, to counter the extras scum were given.
It's a luxury, not a necessity. One day, ten days, makes no difference.

Holy shit this is so fucking stupid. Mastin how do you even confbias this hard. You are literally refusing to acknowledge anything RR is saying as right.
VOTE: farside
I will follow RR to the death.

[Reasonably Rational]

To be clear, I will be using the mark to directly show what happened due to an Event from now on.
If something doesn't have that mark, then it happened due to other actions taken.
I'm going to go back and edit the previous phase's event to be this way.

great modding

[There's literally someone who is declaring intent to unilaterally END the day after less than 24 hours, and I'm practically begging people to work on the big problem coming for the finale.

And the thing is.
While I acknowledge that this scum event is indeed a threat.
While I acknowledge that a scum event like this is something ideally dealt with.

It's still mechanics.
And I know what Varsoon thinks about game mechanics, because I know what (almost) every moderator thinks of mechanics, him included:
They're meant to enhance the play of the game.

Not replace it.

What you're doing is an appeal to fear. "Ooh, this big scary mechanics thing is a huge threat". No doubt it is indeed a threat.
But you're missing the picture.
It's still not scumhunting.
It's not the part of the game, which is actually a fundamental part of the game.

So that's why you got so many votes.
Mechanics aren't at the center of this game. Scumhunting is. And they are scumhunting you.
Any time we spend on mechanics is extra, is time we spend using the extras we've been given, to counter the extras scum were given.
It's a luxury, not a necessity. One day, ten days, makes no difference.

Holy shit this is so fucking stupid. Mastin how do you even confbias this hard. You are literally refusing to acknowledge anything RR is saying as right.
VOTE: farside
I will follow RR to the death.

ILU random.

I was gonna suggest we ally if I don't end up dead today, but just realized we need some things cleared up real quick.

@Varsoon: can slots with only passive abilities forgo their actions? If so, will this have an effect on their passive at all? Basically, if someone with an active ability is allied to someone without an active ability, is the person with the active ability capping their contribution to 1 point?

If the answer to this question is that those without actives can't contribute, then allying for the purpose of scumhunting needs to stop for those of us who have active climax phase actions. Those slots should ally only with their strongest town reads, to minimize the number of slots with active powers that will have their sacrifice compromised by an alliance with scum.

If it doesn't matter, then we still need to be cautious, but not as much so.

-Cerb

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Cerb,

I think your comments against the general approach are misplaced. If approaching this thread by the scientific theory, it's guess and check. Then correct. That explains the pattern you see. It's frustrating and from your PoV incorrect but still a valid strategy but it isn't yours.

I am more pragmatic than most. Even if you're scum (assuming Mastina correct), there is low long term ev in forcing you to be lynched today. I just don't see why we wouldn't trigger your ability first. You can't refuse to use your ability without confirming yourself as scum. Then we get confirmation of whether you are town or scum plus reads to work from. I don't happen to think you are scum maybe, so I guess null.

Why don't you case your biggest scumread? Start to now?

~Titus

[farside22]

Mastin, you're wrong.

I don't care about the mechanical discussion. I care about the fact that discussions about evaluating and/or reevaluating our play yesterday, NOT TODAY (which has obviously been WHOLLY focused on defending ourselves, because I got drawn in and used up all the energy I would have spent doing something productive ) have all been stonewalled.

That's what I mean when I say there's no attempt being made to think.

-Cerb

This isn't happening.

What i mean is your not doing that at all.
What you've done is implode the game with how important your role is, who everyone should pay attention to the event and gave weak reason's for scum reads you have.
I even notice nc asked for you to explain more about grapes and you just avoid that.

This is also wrong.

We have repeatedly reminded people of aspects of our play which make us as scum nearly impossible. One major aspect of that is our interactions with regards to the SC wagon, and the other (which the majority of the game did not know the details about, and which thus had to be shared) was related to how we handled our role. At the time we decided to divulge our full information regarding our event to OWK mastin was known to be conftown, Yume was known to be sheeping her, you had displayed a great degree of doubt about us, and OWK would, by virtue of paranoia regarding our play with one another in the past, no doubt investigate us if given the opportunity. As scum, it would be suicidal to place oneself in a position where you can guarantee that you'll be checked by a cop that is viewed as conftown. It *might* make sense if we were a godfather, but even then the point of the ability is a selection from multiple options, all of which are bad for scum for different reasons. It would have been effortless for us to claim that the event had a different priority, or different stress limitations, which could have both been used to give scum!us the maximum town benefit of claiming this power without ever actually having to USE the power. Instead, we claimed that it was priority 0, only took +1 stress, AND that we'd be attempting to use it EVERY NIGHT so it would happen ASAP.

The stupidity on our part that would be required for us to engage in that sequence of events is why we keep bringing up the mechanical aspect, beyond the pragmatic factor of it being optimal to take a free cop clear and then lynch us that day if you're paranoid about the accuracy or your results, or cLear us thst night if you're not and give scum an additional conftown to have to deal with.

It isn't the event itself that makes us town. It's the fact that it makes no sense to have backed ourselves into a corner like this regarding it's usage.

Regarding the grapes thing: Answering NCs question required effort. Last night I simply didn't feel like looking at grapes ISO and pointing out the posts where he seems to be thinking things through but in a fashion which dismisses, ignores, or trivializes details which are significant.

You're right that all reasons for reads at this point are weak, but the reasons for scumreading us displayed here are FAR weaker, based on the knowledge of our play the main proponents should have and the actions we've taken, than anything we've said today. I hold that our reasons(and everyone else's) are weak because everything is fundamentally based off day 1 play alone, and thus all reasons are weak.

This comes back to the lack of rigor in investigating and verifying ones own suspicions while demanding greater degrees of justification from those who disagree with you that I made fun of grapes for.

McMenno: please read the above. Drixx has not suggested mastin is not town. Drixx has outlined the existence of a scenario in which mastin would not be town, and dismissed it as nearly impossible(thus the 99% thing). This is a far cry from saying "idk guys, this mastin Yume conftown mason thing is kinda shady and means they might both be scum.", which is what you're implying when you say Drixx has suggested that Mastin might be scum. Please learn to read our posts properly before you attempt to interpret them.

In addition, since you dismissed my absolutely correct point that people are reckless in mafia in the wake of success, let me expand on it: had SC flipped town, those who had disagreed would be haranguing those who pushed it and demanded that they reasses, while becoming more certain of their own reads accuracy. In addition, because there would have been no sense of "getting ahead" ,EVERYONE would have been more cautious voting out of fear of a consecutive mislynch and spent a great deal of time looking at interactions yesterday to determine who to "blame" for the mislynch. However, because SC flipped scum, those who were pushing him (which were the most forceful players in the game ) were emboldened and now assume all their reads are correct, and those who disagree with them are taking the time to reassess.

This means that those who were voting yesterday automatically voted us at the start of today, while those who have differing opinions are being more cautious and NOT voting for things....therefore leading us to this situation where only a few hours after the day opened NOTHING had been discussed but our slot, and nobody was voting anywhere else.

It's reckless and thoughtless. If we end up mislynched here with this approach to the game town will be going into D3 with a late D1 grasp of the game.

I predict that almost no one will bother reading this, and those who do, excepting OWK, will quote at most two things out of context to use against us.

I'll look at NC and grapes sometime today when I'm not feeling lazy.

-Cerb

Sorry I missed the part where you discuss how you scum make no sense.

Let me hold back my lack of enthusiasm

To be clear, I will be using the mark to directly show what happened due to an Event from now on.
If something doesn't have that mark, then it happened due to other actions taken.
I'm going to go back and edit the previous phase's event to be this way.

great modding

[There's literally someone who is declaring intent to unilaterally END the day after less than 24 hours, and I'm practically begging people to work on the big problem coming for the finale.

And the thing is.
While I acknowledge that this scum event is indeed a threat.
While I acknowledge that a scum event like this is something ideally dealt with.

It's still mechanics.
And I know what Varsoon thinks about game mechanics, because I know what (almost) every moderator thinks of mechanics, him included:
They're meant to enhance the play of the game.

Not replace it.

What you're doing is an appeal to fear. "Ooh, this big scary mechanics thing is a huge threat". No doubt it is indeed a threat.
But you're missing the picture.
It's still not scumhunting.
It's not the part of the game, which is actually a fundamental part of the game.

So that's why you got so many votes.
Mechanics aren't at the center of this game. Scumhunting is. And they are scumhunting you.
Any time we spend on mechanics is extra, is time we spend using the extras we've been given, to counter the extras scum were given.
It's a luxury, not a necessity. One day, ten days, makes no difference.

Holy shit this is so fucking stupid. Mastin how do you even confbias this hard. You are literally refusing to acknowledge anything RR is saying as right.
VOTE: farside
I will follow RR to the death.

pssst

RR is not voting me.

but, but but I'm feeling a bit frisky here and something interesting is catching my attention with this hard wking.

vote: Shiro

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

VOTE: Farside

Meh, I kinda don't feel like lynching Shiro. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

[farside22]

Cerb,

I think your comments against the general approach are misplaced. If approaching this thread by the scientific theory, it's guess and check. Then correct. That explains the pattern you see. It's frustrating and from your PoV incorrect but still a valid strategy but it isn't yours.

I am more pragmatic than most. Even if you're scum (assuming Mastina correct), there is low long term ev in forcing you to be lynched today. I just don't see why we wouldn't trigger your ability first. You can't refuse to use your ability without confirming yourself as scum. Then we get confirmation of whether you are town or scum plus reads to work from. I don't happen to think you are scum maybe, so I guess null.

Why don't you case your biggest scumread? Start to now?

~Titus

I have 10:30am.
You want me to hold off on the end of day still?

[farside22]

VOTE: Farside

Meh, I kinda don't feel like lynching Shiro. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

Because I'm not scum.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Cerb,

I think your comments against the general approach are misplaced. If approaching this thread by the scientific theory, it's guess and check. Then correct. That explains the pattern you see. It's frustrating and from your PoV incorrect but still a valid strategy but it isn't yours.

I am more pragmatic than most. Even if you're scum (assuming Mastina correct), there is low long term ev in forcing you to be lynched today. I just don't see why we wouldn't trigger your ability first. You can't refuse to use your ability without confirming yourself as scum. Then we get confirmation of whether you are town or scum plus reads to work from. I don't happen to think you are scum maybe, so I guess null.

Why don't you case your biggest scumread? Start to now?

~Titus

I have 10:30am.
You want me to hold off on the end of day still?

Holy crap yes. I don't want you ending the day for at least another 48 hours. Stop asking me.

This reeks of scum desperate to use a dayvig.