STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[mastin2]

there was someone in this game who said that scum specialize in looking town in private topics they have with town. who was it that said that?

That would be me.

Coincidentally, I do not agree with DGB's townread on Klingoncelt!

You don't want me lynched. You know I'm Town.

You keep saying that, and yet, no, I really, really don't.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin; please consider the following:

1.) Early in the game, I noted something was off with Firebringer and pushed a discussion with him. The best way to get a read in early game is to get someone talking and see where it goes. You can't say that I was just doing that for optics because

you also

caught a scummy vibe off him when you were catching up. Maybe we both saw the same thing. Just because I press people differently than you do doesn't make my approach invalid. Don't take my word for it: there's a plethora of town games of mine for you to go look at. You're not going to be able to demonstrate a material difference between how I handled Firebringer this game and any of those, because that's how I scumhunt early when there's little known. I'll force interactions to try and get a base read and then I'll let up and see if the player changes or stays consistent. Self-meta is shit, so go look it up and then come back. You won't be able to point out substantive differences because I'm town and that's how I play early.

2.) I gave reads, dumped my thoughts, resigned myself to being mislynched and THEN I begged you guys to take the time to work out the event. What you know or don't know about Varsoon is

irrelevant

. He intentionally changes things up. In Space Dandy II, the scum team could have won on day 2 100% of the time if they had realized. Varsoon AND his reviewers for that game missed it. Cerb and I did not and did everything we could to get a town win. That might be a good game for you to look at to compare to this one, for what it's worth.

3.) Neither Cerb nor I rely on gut to form reads. Gut, to us, is our brain telling us that we noticed something. If something is off we go digging. Early game there ain't much to dig. You say that me reading Farside's post about it being unlikely that she and SC would be in the joy ride as a scum slip is a stretch, but it's not. A50 was the one who picked the joy ride. If we posit a scum team that had SC and Farside on it, they would have had no say in the matter. There was objectively no reason for the fight in the thread between them, and even less than no reason for her to disband the event. All that did was remove the event's protection, and if SC were the only scum in the joyride, then those people would have all been safe if she had not done that (hindsight bias will make you think that this doesn't matter but IT DOES!). Furthermore, keeping that intact could have outed additional scum potentially present in the joyride. The way Farside said what she did

could be

a slip.

3a.) Remember Titus' slip in Steven Universe? Remember how we concluded that the only way Titus could have known about Sonic's ability was if she got it from the scum team because she had not allied with anyone who knew about it? Remember how we then arrived at the very high probability that Sonic was the scum who told her of the ability, and remember how you tried to stop us going after him? Sometimes a slip is a TINY thing. In that case, it was literally one word that shouldn't have been there that tipped her hand that she knew about the ability. If you weren't so fully convinced we're scum, you would take me noting something small that looks like a slip WAY more seriously than you did.

So seriously ... please just set aside your certainty bias and take the time to do a "What if?" and posit us as town. I've given reads and thoughts on several slots, and I will be happy to let you interrogate the hell out of me. Titus has NEVER ever townread me before, but she town read ME (Cerb didn't want to reveal shit about what we do because of how Titus tried to play us in original SU) this game. You have the chance to engage with me and see what you come away with. What you have pointed out about Cerb is littered all over all of his games. It's completely meaningless because it's in his nature and he does it regardless of whether he's town, 3rd party, or scum. Every thing you point to and say "That's scummy" is literally all that Cerberus does in early games. He tries to figure out what's going on with the game and mechanics and tries to gather as much concrete information as possible. That comes in handy later in games.


Finally: I really wish there were a way for us to talk privately. I have a lot to say about how to use the scum event against them, but it's not things I want to flesh out in front of people. Varsoon forgot to add me to the alliance PT on my main, but we can converse in private through Yume if you like. Obviously Yume cannot directly quote but paraphrasing can suffice. If you are going to insist on pushing our lynch no matter what, I want to at least get my thoughts and reads and ideas to someone I know shares my wincon, becuase quite frankly, Cerb and I are both quite tired of putting in literally hundreds of hours on games and having narrow losses. It would be nice to freaking win one.

Ball's in your court, but I'm going to sleep. I'm drained. I've had a pretty fucking awful week and you bashing my play and insulting me just isn't something I'm really down for at the moment.

~Drixx

[mastin2]

You forgot to mention that you were given proof that I'm Town.

Except, no I wasn't.
And I'm under the impression alignment information

can't

be sent during the night phase. (And I have damn good reason to hold this belief, too!)
You're claiming to the contrary.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also everything you're saying about the mechanical discussion of today being thr reason for the votes is wrong.

Absolutely and utterly incorrect. The votes were there and in place before we started saying anything today.

The people voting us are doing it based on their evaluation of yesterdays play, and that play is something every single one is biased about. You most of all because admitting that there was any merit to us going after SC would diminish your own legacy.

I mean, seriously maatin, you call us smart yourself. Where is the scum motivation in going to all the trouble of "distancing" ourselves from SC, only to throw it all away with a huge back and forth and unvote when it was OBVIOUS to everyone that SC would be lynched. I'm just as aware of the game state as you were. Trying to say that I, as scum, somehow missed the fact that said unvote and subsequent conversation had NO CHANCE of saving my partner, but did it anyways, is something you should recognize as implausible at best, out of character at worst. And what would your have said had I NOT unvoted? You would have noted that it's really unusual for me to go to bed with someone at l-2 while I have questions about a situation related to them. No matter what occurred, you would have twisted it to fit the narrative you want town listening to.

However, recognizing that means admitting that you were wrong, and that's not something you can do because you know people and how to influence them, and know that letting even a hint of doubt show can irreparably damage your ability to rally town. You'd rather mislynch us than risk losing the influence you have in the game and forcing scum to target you at some point. I mean, just look at the whole FB situation . We KNOW you know something about it, because you said so, but you deliberately twist everything we said regarding it to make it appear as though what we're saying is unreasnable, when it isn't, at all...and you know better. That's purely you manipulating towns perception of our slot to minimize the chance of us not being lynched today, and it has *nothing* to do with whether or not said behaviors were alignment indicativs.

This is why Drixx gets mad at you and blows up.
-Cerb.

Oh. Drixx said stuff. I should probably do what I said I was gonna do and igno re this until the morning.

[Klingoncelt]

KC - Something was off about the response to the DGB thing. If I were KC, there's no way someone could claim to be a scum to me and live. KC barely pushed it. That isn't a town response, imo.


~Drixx

Liar.

I pushed it.

It was blown off as a gambit.

Everyone Townreads her.

So despite my being convinced that she's Scum, she'll likely make it to endgame.

[Reasonably Rational]

KC - Something was off about the response to the DGB thing. If I were KC, there's no way someone could claim to be a scum to me and live. KC barely pushed it. That isn't a town response, imo.


~Drixx

Liar.

I pushed it.

It was blown off as a gambit.

Everyone Townreads her.

So despite my being convinced that she's Scum, she'll likely make it to endgame.

People probably wouldn't have blown it off if you has bothered voting her.

Which you didn't do.

:/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin bashing my play implicitly all game is just sort of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Oh I don't have anything against your play at all.

Contrary to your apparent perception, this is no vendetta. I'm not bashing your play. I hold it in the highest regard.

I just so happen to think this is your scum game.

You bring up all my failures, but I learn from them: I evolve, try to get better. So bringing them up doesn't invoke feelings of doubt from me. They invoke feelings that you look desperate because you wouldn't feel the need to bring up those failures otherwise. That might not be true, might not be how you see it. But that's what they look like, and one thing has always been consistent in MY play: I will always tell things as I see them, and that just so happens to be how I see it.

I think you're scum.
It's not that complex. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just a simple read, no different from any number of hundreds of previous reads of mine.

Sorry but you are bashing me when you link to examples of really sub-optimal plays made because no other choice was available. I never play scum the same way twice (as an intentional choice on my part). You've seen me as scum once and you didn't suspect a thing until it was too late and you know how that played out. So when you've seen me do what I did then and then you turn around and link to really bad play and say that's what I'm doing, there's definitely implicit "you're a baddie" in there.

But I'll take you at your word that it's not intentional. You will admit, I presume, that you have a rather large ego and a forceful personality. Perhaps that's all it is. In any case, I'm off to wind down and you should read my prior post and decide what you want to do. In my world, the right thing is to ALWAYS question your conclusion and consider the alternatives. You do not appear to have done so.

~Drixx

P.S. - Cerb's point is a very good one. We were put at "People get your alliances in order, day is ending" like 5 hours into the day. By sheer necessity we're spending time on defending ourselves that would be much more productive elsewhere.


P-Edit - KC; you know I love you. Town you would not have let getting blown off stop you from pressing it. Remember that game where you and Varsoon both claimed miller and I told the game who was scum and exactly what you guys were doing?

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, one more thing I guess maatin: If Drixx and I were scum, we went to A LOT of trouble to convince Titus to townread us, to the point of GUARANTEEING we'd be forced to give town a cop clear or a guilty in order to do so.

Titus has told me, after I fooled her in Gistou, that her weakness is people disagreeing with her.

After going to all that effort, scum!me blows all the town cred I just gained with that slot? I mean seriously?

Ugh. Leaving this alone for real, I have a fucking problem with refreshing these damn games. If we're still around in the morning and I see SOME desire from.the game to have us actually play, I'll do so, otherwise I'll just relax and enjoy my Sunday.

-Cerb

[Not Chara]

Rational (both of you): to be fair, i was talking to Drixx. still, i believe they've posted in the meantime. i asked about your reads. ISO me, you should find the post in my recent ones, quoting you. i know you're going to bed, but this is just a reminded since i think you missed the post.

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mastin - You have played with Cerberus before right? I'm just checking because you're saying something he does

all the time

was fake. And the underlying implications to that don't make sense.

And for the idiot ball comments: Idiot Ball = literary device. It refers to when an otherwise very intelligent character makes an absurd mistake. It's kind of like a deus ex machina, and it fits in really when people aren't engaging their brains.

@Grapes - Farside, Foxbird, DGB, Grapes, KC are the people I am looking at for scum at the moment.


Farside - Super anti-town play yesterday with what she did. If you think about the implications of it and how it could have been leveraged for maximum utility, her blowing up that event was the most anti-town thing I've ever seen on the site.
Foxbird - Read the ISO. Self-explanatory.
DGB - The whole Traitor thing. Makes zero sense. DGB also moved us to firm town late yesterday but then just voted us today. Back to the traitor thing: what would make DGB think there's a traitor unless she is one? It's not a thing I remember Varsoon using before and I don't see anything in the info we have to suggest one is present. Only way DGB is town is if it was a reaction test, but if that's the case, why isn't DGB engage din the main thread doing things like that?
KC - Something was off about the response to the DGB thing. If I were KC, there's no way someone could claim to be a scum to me and live. KC barely pushed it. That isn't a town response, imo.
You - Gut. You're too smart to actually think we're scum and you are also too smart to join in on an ego push, yet you seem to be doing both.

~Drixx

okay, here it is. thank you Titus.

Drixx: i can see your points for most of these. i disagree with farside as scum, but her play was not fantastic there. the only other read i have issue with is the grapes read. (is the ego push on you?) i dislike this 'you're too smart to think this' attitude. it's one of the reasons i was very strongly scumreading grapes during that point of day 1. i thought they if they read me so correctly in my first newbie game (which has been completed, so i can

finally

talk about it), then the fact that they were so wrong here had to mean something was different. this game is difficult and it's incredibly easy to be wrong when new situations come up, i've learned. don't take this to mean i'm lecturing you, my inexperience in the face of your amount of games is very obvious to me.

This wasn't a question? I didn't miss it, I saw you asked what the reads were, found Drixx's post and made a response. I didn't see anything to respond to here. You can see our points, but disagree with some things. I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an expectation of a certain level of competence and insight from certain players, and to note when they don't display the expected level of insight. It isn't a matter of them being right or wrong for me...it's the reasoning and the processes that are being used that are problematic. As far as I'm concerned being right for the wrong reasons is worse than being wrong in the first place, and seeing someone insist on using the wrong reasons when you know you can expect better is troubling.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To expand a little bit on that: EVERYONE, no matter how good they are, is wrong pretty frequently in this game, to be honest. Results bias is a big deal, which is why I focus on processes. If the processes people are using seem off, either because it's out of character or because it simply doesn't make sense AND THEY SHOULD KNOW IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, then we have a problem.

-Cerb

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Drixx, you think that Mastina's team is wrong. What did you think of mine?

Cerby you can answer this too...

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx, you think that Mastina's team is wrong. What did you think of mine?

Cerby you can answer this too...

OMG I just want to go away and do something else. What composition did you have in mind? Did Drixx even say that he thinks mastinas team is wrong? I mean, I guess that's implicit in the places where the reads differ, so dumb question.

-Cerb

[Not Chara]

sorry. i guess you're right, i didn't phrase it as a question. still, i meant it as a way to talk to you.
the farside read is one where i understood how you came to it, but disagreed on the read itself. i didn't feel that way with the grapes read, so i talked about that one. could you quote where you point out grapes using the wrong processes in reading you?
but do it in the morning. from what i can gather, you should be asleep.

pedit: or, 'go away and doing something else', if not sleep.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Can you talk to me about Creature? He's the biggest difference we have (aside from fire which I need time on).

I am at NC Creature Cakez klingon CoolDog X, add DGB/Fire if wrong?

Drixx, you think that Mastina's team is wrong. What did you think of mine?

Cerby you can answer this too...

OMG I just want to go away and do something else. What composition did you have in mind? Did Drixx even say that he thinks mastinas team is wrong? I mean, I guess that's implicit in the places where the reads differ, so dumb question.

-Cerb

There you go.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I'm changing Farside for Fire there currently but yeah...

[Not Chara]

Titus, grapes: i'd like to speak to either of you privately. an alliance with one of you two for day 3 would be ideal.
i would also love to ally with mastin, but if we would not be able to talk, i think it would be a less helpful arrangement than the above two players.

on Foxbird: i don't find anything terribly towny about her. still, if she was indeed especially busy, i'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and she what she comes up with today.

Skybird: could you talk about what Foxbird was like in your topic? if you were both more active in there, i can't know anything about why you have her as town if you don't explain. same question to Fox about Sky, because why not.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I think it's too early to set alliances yet, but the request is noted.

[Not Chara]

I think it's too early to set alliances yet, but the request is noted.

fair. keep me in mind then.

[Klingoncelt]

Because of our interactions in the PT.

You claimed to be a traitor. There is no way a town!KC responds to that in any way other than going after you until you are dead. Please explain why KC would just be passive after you claimed that.

If you say it was a reaction test, then the question becomes why would you think the game should have a traitor, when I don't recall Varsoon using one before (although I haven't played EVERY Varsoon game so I could have missed it somewhere), and how could you convince KC that it was a reaction test and you weren't genuinely claiming in the belief that she was scum and could recruit you?

KC just doesn't make sense as town given what we know.

~D

I'm pretty sure that if I were Scum I'd have the team NK her that Night.

I might be stupid, but I'm not stupid enough to let a Traitor slip by. Especially with myself likely to be lynched, Mastina's calling for my head, you know. I'd hand the Traitor over to my Scum buddies faster than you can say Wat.

[Klingoncelt]

Cooldog, RR, and Klingoncelt are the names I'd support lynching today.

You don't want me lynched. You know I'm Town.

"i am not the scum you're looking for. you will let me go about my business. move along."

She was specifically targeted with information from my RolePM.

[Klingoncelt]

there was someone in this game who said that scum specialize in looking town in private topics they have with town. who was it that said that?

That would be me.

Coincidentally, I do not agree with DGB's townread on Klingoncelt!

You don't want me lynched. You know I'm Town.

You keep saying that, and yet, no, I really, really don't.

Information was sent about my RolePM, including that it wasn't a fakeclaim. I have confirmation that you got the information.

If I'm lynched or otherwise killed, I ask the Gems and anyone else that can Bubble or hide results to let me flip naturally.

Then Town can ask Mastin to explain herself.

[Klingoncelt]

You forgot to mention that you were given proof that I'm Town.

Except, no I wasn't.
And I'm under the impression alignment information

can't

be sent during the night phase. (And I have damn good reason to hold this belief, too!)
You're claiming to the contrary.

I was given confirmation. You have the info.

[Klingoncelt]

KC - Something was off about the response to the DGB thing. If I were KC, there's no way someone could claim to be a scum to me and live. KC barely pushed it. That isn't a town response, imo.


~Drixx

Liar.

I pushed it.

It was blown off as a gambit.

Everyone Townreads her.

So despite my being convinced that she's Scum, she'll likely make it to endgame.

People probably wouldn't have blown it off if you has bothered voting her.

Which you didn't do.

:/

-Cerb

I COULDN'T VOTE ON DAY ONE!!!!!

I tried voting for Grapes, and then tried to vote McMenno.

The votes never appeared. DGB took credit for that.

Then suddenly I had 2 votes on Firebringer, even though I didn't vote him.

Well, there were votes with my name on them, at least, so I took a chance and voted for Sir Cakes. The next VC the votes stayed on FB, but the VC after that they moved to Cakes. And the hammer came soon after.

So tell me, why would I vote for DGB at that stage in the game?

[Not Chara]

could you test your vote now?