STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[Not Chara]

mastin: if you're a miller, you should at least claim that.

i'm against flavour claims and ability claims, but any negative-utilities should be on the table in plain terms, without hinting at one's flavour role.

Drixx, this was the post. i'm not sure how you misinterpreted my intent from this. i couldn't have been more clear.

Thank you for going way out of your way to make it really clear you weren't asking Mastin to claim more ... by quoting yourself telling mastin specifically to claim whether miller or not and also telling mastin to claim neg utility in plain terms.

The question is should I give you the benefit of the doubt or not?

You see: Steven Universe and Steven Universe Prequel and pretty much all of the Varsoon games based upon actual shows/games have strong flavor reasons for the abilities and roles people are assigned. So asking Mastin to explain her negative role utility "in plain terms" actually

IS

fishing for flavor in a Varsoon game. It's really enough that she told us there's neg utility with her role and it's probably too much that she made such a big deal about wanting to say more.

'way out of my way'? i quoted a single recent post.
this is a language/terminology disagreement, and i've had enough of those.

from the games i've read, i had the understanding that claiming negative utility meant claiming what you were. if you were a miller for example, you would say so, to tell anyone thinking about it that investigating you would be useless. claiming a vague negative utility seems to have no actual benefit. except for when one claims later, to say 'see, i already told you i was negative utility'. what am i misunderstanding?

and, i don't see how you can call it fishing with intent for such when you felt you had to explain to me

why

it was fishing.

[Firebringer]

I hope not. I'm trying to knock you out of your comfort rut and see how you do if you aren't left to troll and lurk.

How's that working so far?

[Firebringer]

mastin: if you're a miller, you should at least claim that.

i'm against flavour claims and ability claims, but any negative-utilities should be on the table in plain terms, without hinting at one's flavour role.

Drixx, this was the post. i'm not sure how you misinterpreted my intent from this. i couldn't have been more clear.

Thank you for going way out of your way to make it really clear you weren't asking Mastin to claim more ... by quoting yourself telling mastin specifically to claim whether miller or not and also telling mastin to claim neg utility in plain terms.

The question is should I give you the benefit of the doubt or not?

You see: Steven Universe and Steven Universe Prequel and pretty much all of the Varsoon games based upon actual shows/games have strong flavor reasons for the abilities and roles people are assigned. So asking Mastin to explain her negative role utility "in plain terms" actually

IS

fishing for flavor in a Varsoon game. It's really enough that she told us there's neg utility with her role and it's probably too much that she made such a big deal about wanting to say more.

there is... a lot of anger in Drixx.

what you've said about Firebringer indicates scum, but you're still talking directly to them. is Firebringer scum or misguided town, which is it?

This is my confusion too, he says I am making it up and trying to look town but then suggests that I am town? Very confused.

I always account for the possibility that my scum reads are wrong; the very best scum hunters on site are barely better than random chance, and I'm not among the very best scum hunters on site. Until I'm

sure

that someone is scum, they get treated like they might be town. This is super easily confirmable by checking my meta. One

really good

example is my interaction with Titus in Space Dandy 2. I was giving her benefit of the doubt comments even when mod clarification made it look like she was caught and mod confirmed as lying.

Firebringer, as town, is basically always misguided. At this point, I've concluded that it's an intentional play style choice on his part. He trolls and contributes little to nothing and ends up in the end game unless he gets lynched because why would scum kill a townie behaving that way?

This going to be how you treat me all game?

I hope not. I'm trying to knock you out of your comfort rut and see how you do if you aren't left to troll and lurk.

Mastin has a proven record of being way above average at reading people. Sorry that she pegged you as scum, but so far you kind of look like scum trying to get town read. If you're not, maybe that should tell you something and you should adjust.

Ummm she read beginning first page little comments that mean nothing as alignment indicative, you serious?

Early game stuff, even from the first page, solves games all the time. I'm serious and Mastin is serious. I've lost count of the times I'm in the dead thread watching as a town squanders a win because none of the living town go check the early stuff and look at it through the lense of accumulated knowledge.


~D

My bullshit meter went through the roof on the last bit

[Almost50]

Someone ally with me....?

I'm game if that's still open (haven't read beyond the post I'm responding to). I don't think I've seen scum!you before though

[Not Chara]

if you're town, your ally claiming their role/flavour to you can only be helpful, Almost50. mind telling me why you feel so strongly about this?

Because:

1- Scum have been provided with GOOD fake claims already. It's in the rules. I don't want to end up town reading my ally and spelling my guts to them when they're in fact SCUM.

2- They'd expect me to do teh same, which -again- I don't want to do in case I', reading them wrong.

Ask Cerb. He'll tell you what happened in the last VARSOON game we played, where KC totally fooled me, Nahdia fooled both Cerb & ABR, and we ended up massacred by the scum team for having wrong reads and sharing secrets with them.

i know why

you

wouldn't want to claim to your partner, but asking them not to claim to you is what is strange to me. it isn't as though you're forced to claim because they have. would your ally claiming to you really make you trust them that much? (especially when town should be afraid of scum knowing their role)

[mastin2]

Mastin has a proven record of being way above average at reading people. Sorry that she pegged you as scum, but so far you kind of look like scum trying to get town read. If you're not, maybe that should tell you something and you should adjust.

Hey, Cerb. I know this is a Drixx post, he can answer it too, it's applicable both ways, but Cerb knows this better overall.

Question time.

Why do you say this about Firebringer, who I noted as "scum?", with a question mark for good reason...

...While ignoring the one and only player I had marked as unambiguously, without any interrogation-mark attached, "scum."?

That is, why are you saying this about a read I'm not sure of...

...While not paying attention to the much, much, MUCH more notworthy read I have on Not Chara?

And!
Furthermore.

You're a smart guy and I can't hold context worth a damn. So if you haven't already figured this out, you would soon enough.
You know about my accuracy reading you.

And yet, I'm

not

townreading you.

Why am I not townreading you?
It's certainly not a question of quantity! You're among the highest post counts in the game. Why is it that the quality of those posts has not given me the impression you're town?
Why is it that you look like scum?

And furthermore! Why is it that Not Chara looks like the most obvious scumbuddy of yours in all of time?

[Reasonably Rational]

So who would like to ally with me?

I would be okay with that engagement

I'm up for this if you are still willing.

Too late, farside and I are allied and next day I am planning alliance with RR.

yeah, I saw that as I caught up. maybe day three then?

If there's not some strong reason to do otherwise, sure. You understand why we want to sort Titus and Yume first yeah?


@Farside - I just realized I didn't say anything to your earlier question. You remember what happened in original SU right? Like ... we were able to figure out and be sure you were town when the whole freaking game was sure you were scum. You're not a priority for us to sort right away. You are a solid person to ally with later if we both survive that long and once we have enough to go on to read you. We worked great together in original SU, but that was late mid-game. We're more focused on figuring out slots that are harder for us to figure out early on. Nothing personal.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin has a proven record of being way above average at reading people. Sorry that she pegged you as scum, but so far you kind of look like scum trying to get town read. If you're not, maybe that should tell you something and you should adjust.

Hey, Cerb. I know this is a Drixx post, he can answer it too, it's applicable both ways, but Cerb knows this better overall.

Question time.

Why do you say this about Firebringer, who I noted as "scum?", with a question mark for good reason...

...While ignoring the one and only player I had marked as unambiguously, without any interrogation-mark attached, "scum."?

That is, why are you saying this about a read I'm not sure of...

...While not paying attention to the much, much, MUCH more notworthy read I have on Not Chara?

And!
Furthermore.

You're a smart guy and I can't hold context worth a damn. So if you haven't already figured this out, you would soon enough.
You know about my accuracy reading you.

And yet, I'm

not

townreading you.

Why am I not townreading you?
It's certainly not a question of quantity! You're among the highest post counts in the game. Why is it that the quality of those posts has not given me the impression you're town?
Why is it that you look like scum?

And furthermore! Why is it that Not Chara looks like the most obvious scumbuddy of yours in all of time?

Most of the posts are from me, I think, and I'm pretty sure an objective analysis of your early reads on me will show that you're not that good at reading me. Very similar to Titus on that front, in fact.

And I was having an ongoing conversation with Firebringer and you dumped a read in which he tried to handwave away, and I responded by pointing out that, in general, you are above average. Since I had a pretty lengthy back and forth primarily with Firebringer going on for the last couple hours, why did you expect me to stop and comment on every read you made? You didn't ask my/our opinion so therefore you should have no reason to expect it so therefore you are just using it as a pretense to see how we react.

I'm pretty sure you've played with us as RR before. You know how we approach things. Stop being silly.

~D

[Firebringer]

RR what the duck are your reads?

[Reasonably Rational]

I hope not. I'm trying to knock you out of your comfort rut and see how you do if you aren't left to troll and lurk.

How's that working so far?

Too soon to tell. Ask again later.

mastin: if you're a miller, you should at least claim that.

i'm against flavour claims and ability claims, but any negative-utilities should be on the table in plain terms, without hinting at one's flavour role.

Drixx, this was the post. i'm not sure how you misinterpreted my intent from this. i couldn't have been more clear.

Thank you for going way out of your way to make it really clear you weren't asking Mastin to claim more ... by quoting yourself telling mastin specifically to claim whether miller or not and also telling mastin to claim neg utility in plain terms.

The question is should I give you the benefit of the doubt or not?

You see: Steven Universe and Steven Universe Prequel and pretty much all of the Varsoon games based upon actual shows/games have strong flavor reasons for the abilities and roles people are assigned. So asking Mastin to explain her negative role utility "in plain terms" actually

IS

fishing for flavor in a Varsoon game. It's really enough that she told us there's neg utility with her role and it's probably too much that she made such a big deal about wanting to say more.

there is... a lot of anger in Drixx.

what you've said about Firebringer indicates scum, but you're still talking directly to them. is Firebringer scum or misguided town, which is it?

This is my confusion too, he says I am making it up and trying to look town but then suggests that I am town? Very confused.

I always account for the possibility that my scum reads are wrong; the very best scum hunters on site are barely better than random chance, and I'm not among the very best scum hunters on site. Until I'm

sure

that someone is scum, they get treated like they might be town. This is super easily confirmable by checking my meta. One

really good

example is my interaction with Titus in Space Dandy 2. I was giving her benefit of the doubt comments even when mod clarification made it look like she was caught and mod confirmed as lying.

Firebringer, as town, is basically always misguided. At this point, I've concluded that it's an intentional play style choice on his part. He trolls and contributes little to nothing and ends up in the end game unless he gets lynched because why would scum kill a townie behaving that way?

This going to be how you treat me all game?

I hope not. I'm trying to knock you out of your comfort rut and see how you do if you aren't left to troll and lurk.

Mastin has a proven record of being way above average at reading people. Sorry that she pegged you as scum, but so far you kind of look like scum trying to get town read. If you're not, maybe that should tell you something and you should adjust.

Ummm she read beginning first page little comments that mean nothing as alignment indicative, you serious?

Early game stuff, even from the first page, solves games all the time. I'm serious and Mastin is serious. I've lost count of the times I'm in the dead thread watching as a town squanders a win because none of the living town go check the early stuff and look at it through the lense of accumulated knowledge.


~D

My bullshit meter went through the roof on the last bit

You realize you can go look at games and see this happen over and over again. There's a rule which prohibits me from giving you the best example that is popping into my head. Others who play a lot of games will attest to what I'm saying: early posts matter and they often are a gold mine in the mid and late game.

In fact ... I've got a great example. In SMITE I replaced into a slot which had said certain things really early in the game. I ended up pulling out the win in that game against 2 town and an SK on the last day, but I only even go to the last day because town players didn't go look at the early posts made by my predecessor,

even though I told them exactly where to look

. Every post matters.

[Not Chara]

Rational: i don't like this response. to Firebringer, it's "mastin has called you scum, and she is a good scumhunter" but when it's about you, it's "you're not that good at reading me".

and 'stop being silly'? this feels like an attempt to win over mastin. no paranoia at all?

and you're saying you shouldn't have been expected to comment on every read mastin makes, but you didn't mention me at all, despite that being the main crux of mastin's point.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Mastin can be town.
Foxbird is also town (maybe).
Farside is town.

~Bee

[Skybird]

So who would like to ally with me?

I would be okay with that engagement

I'm up for this if you are still willing.

Too late, farside and I are allied and next day I am planning alliance with RR.

Sweet!

I think RR is scum btw.

If it makes you feel better: no longer scumreading you, and farside's one of my strongest townreads now.

Me too.
Your reads so different then mine are a dead give away.

Sky: ally with foxbird I got a good vibe from her.

That sounds good.

@Foxbird,

want to be in an alliance with me?

So who would like to ally with me?

I would be okay with that engagement

I'm up for this if you are still willing.

Too late, farside and I are allied and next day I am planning alliance with RR.

yeah, I saw that as I caught up. maybe day three then?

If there's not some strong reason to do otherwise, sure. You understand why we want to sort Titus and Yume first yeah?


@Farside - I just realized I didn't say anything to your earlier question. You remember what happened in original SU right? Like ... we were able to figure out and be sure you were town when the whole freaking game was sure you were scum. You're not a priority for us to sort right away. You are a solid person to ally with later if we both survive that long and once we have enough to go on to read you. We worked great together in original SU, but that was late mid-game. We're more focused on figuring out slots that are harder for us to figure out early on. Nothing personal.

~D

RR, actually, I was talking to Yume. But I can pencil you in for D2 or D4. I will do my best to be talky enough for you guys.

[farside22]

I'm bored.
I'm doing something to fix that.

[Foxbird]

@Sky: Yeah, I'm up for allying! Will PM Varsoon now.

[Reasonably Rational]

Rational: i don't like this response. to Firebringer, it's "mastin has called you scum, and she is a good scumhunter" but when it's about you, it's "you're not that good at reading me".

and 'stop being silly'? this feels like an attempt to win over mastin. no paranoia at all?

and you're saying you shouldn't have been expected to comment on every read mastin makes, but you didn't mention me at all, despite that being the main crux of mastin's point.

Titus has been getting better and better at reading scum lately, but still reads me wrong. She'll openly admit it (and a small voice says that if she doesn't, I can link you to literally a dozen or more games). Good scum hunters can be wrong about some people due to style. In particular, Cerb and I both don't really care about being town read. We work on solving the game and let people figure out we're town on their own schedule.

As for talking about

you

, we would have to be scum to be scum partners with you, so Mastin's suggestion that we looked like scum partners wasn't even worth responding to. The fact that it caught your attention does make me wonder about YOU though.

And ummm ... we're paranoid about everyone. Mastin was Connie in Steven Universe with us (We were Steven Universe and we could IC on day 5, but Mastin and Xtoxm showed up in a permanent neighborhood/alliance with us at the start of day 3) and we were paranoid of her then, even though the scum roles we saw flip made us believe that logically scum would not have been given knowledge that we were Steven prior to the first season finale because they had the ability to kill us and it would have taken just pure luck for us to escape death (we would have had to be allied with a specific player and that player would have had to use a 1-shot commute that specific night or otherwise scum could have killed us without any way for us to survive during the first finale, which was

BEFORE

we could get mod confirmation that we were IC. So even though we felt it was logically really bastard for either mastin or xtoxm to be scum, we were still paranoid of both of them (xtoxm ended up being scum, but that's a whole other story).

The point is... we don't give out town reads lightly. We're paranoid of everyone until we have good reasons to trust them, and you can see this in our play consistently in every game we've played.

So umm... stop assuming shit. This is a big game with a lot of people. Just because I'm not climbing down someone's throat doesn't mean I town read them. {Insert commentary about assumptions here}.

~D

P.S. - Cerb's at work and I've got a friend over so see ya'll later tonight

[Almost50]

So.
I know that Varsoon specifically told us, "don't claim".
But, goddammit, Varsoon.
If you're gonna tell us that claiming is going to get us punished...

...Don't give us roles where NOT claiming is even MORE punishable.
So, uh.

In simplest terms:
The good news is, I actually am town this game.
The bad news is, I don't appear to be town.

I shouldn't claim more than that, but...
...Dammit, I want to. I WANT TO CLAIM. Because it's in my nature to do so, yet I can't.

I'll say this much though:
Deja vu.
As in,

serious

deja vu.
De.ja. vu.

I can claim no more.

Woot??? NO TRIVIA??

[Almost50]

So.
I know that Varsoon specifically told us, "don't claim".
But, goddammit, Varsoon.
If you're gonna tell us that claiming is going to get us punished...

...Don't give us roles where NOT claiming is even MORE punishable.
So, uh.

In simplest terms:
The good news is, I actually am town this game.
The bad news is, I don't appear to be town.

I shouldn't claim more than that, but...
...Dammit, I want to. I WANT TO CLAIM. Because it's in my nature to do so, yet I can't.

I'll say this much though:
Deja vu.
As in,

serious

deja vu.
De.ja. vu.

I can claim no more.

are you undead risen slave or miller

She's an individual Vampire! Even after she flips you'd still be wondering until you see an Isolationist's win con!

[Almost50]

The ONLY thing that people should claim at this point is negative utility. Anything else is just fucking stupid; plain and simple.

I agree. So, I'm a PGO .. Oh, dang!! I've already used THAT more recently. OK. As you where!

[mastin2]

I think it'd be more accurate to say I'm Tatiana Ruffins.

[mastin2]

Oh.
I just read a clause in my role PM.

Yeah, I'm not allowing anyone to ally with me, ever.
There's something in there that I missed before, which now that I've read, has rendered any chance of me ever having interest in allying gone.
The power I have is a massive boost to scum but useless to town, so I am NOT giving it away, ever.

[Almost50]

would your ally claiming to you really make you trust them that much?

You obviously don't know how much skill is within this player list

I also have soft spots for some, so there's that too.

As for no claiming to them in response to their claim to me, that would make them more suspicious of me for no reason at all.

I mean, consider this: You & I are allies with our own PT, and you tell me your role and/or flavour, and I don't. If you're town nobody can wrong you for growing suspicion on me. If you're scum, you'd be more inclined to off me ASAP for fear of (a) me being a strong PR being the reason I won't claim, or (b) me catching you in a lie later on.

So, the optimal play for me is if I was in a PT with a mod-confirmed Townie (say, an IC who has the option to confirm themselves in the PT if so they wished), or -at least- someone I think I can read well.

[Almost50]

Oh.
I just read a clause in my role PM.

Yeah, I'm not allowing anyone to ally with me, ever.
There's something in there that I missed before, which now that I've read, has rendered any chance of me ever having interest in allying gone.
The power I have is a massive boost to scum but useless to town, so I am NOT giving it away, ever.

The mod who complains that people missed a semicolon in their PM and/or flavor story.. manages to miss a whole clause in her own role PM??

[Firebringer]

Oh.
I just read a clause in my role PM.

Yeah, I'm not allowing anyone to ally with me, ever.
There's something in there that I missed before, which now that I've read, has rendered any chance of me ever having interest in allying gone.
The power I have is a massive boost to scum but useless to town, so I am NOT giving it away, ever.

Maybe read it one more time to make sure for sure.

[CooLDoG]

what the fuck. Now I gotta read 14 pages of this. alright. get ready for a patented cooldog wall