Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[Chrimi]

By protective role I mean jailkeeper because we don't have a doc.

[shannon]

Congratulations TNE, your role fishing has put you next in line to be ISOd! It's not the fishing per se, it's the fact that you cautioned against it earlier:

Nah its because that post was almost either

role fishing,

LAMIST post, PR controlling

All 3 points are

scummy

(when I ask what the best thing to do is)

To not talk about PRs, honestly

Then today ...

If it was a BP s/he should claim honestly

No point in actually hiding that fact

Hell that's the most anti-town shit you can pull especially when it reaches later days

But there *is* a point in a BP not claiming, it obscures things for scum.

Why would scum ask for a BP claim?
1) To find out whether or not they were JKed (like if I was targeted last night and said I was BP, scum would know they weren't JKed)
2) To narrow down the options for the setup

In my ISOing I see that you've done no scum hunting at all this game. You've talked about alts, called me scum for doing a reaction test, called Chrimi scum for really weak reasons, and dealt with the case made on you ... but you've never *really* made a case on anyone (there are no long posts with quotes), never really questioned anyone for non-alt-drama stuff, and you've never had a decent town read on anyone, either.

When I said that one of the four of you in that voting round-robin had an interest in keeping it going, I discounted you because your reaction to the wagon on you looked towny. But looking back after 0x40's flip, and after ISOing you, I think it was you. The drama over alts and the insult trading actually gave you a reason to post, but also a reason to avoid posting any real game-changing content.


VOTE: TNE - my vote stays until I see you post some real content, not just one or two liners

[shannon]

This means if you're a protective role you better save my sweet ass tonight.

Chrimi was that a real claim?! Have you considered the possibility that scum targeted someone else and were blocked?

[shannon]

Hang on, I just thought of this, TNE's role fishing and Chrimi's response make perfect sense if TNE is scum part of a team with a Mafia Roleblocker (column A). Here's how I got there.

I think there's no reason for town to want to know about their BP at this point. So the question is automatically scummy to me. TNE asked specifically about a BP as reason for no NK, which makes no sense if he's scum in 1 or C.

So he's either -

In a goon/goon team and trying to choose between B or 3
In a goon/RB team trying to choose between A or 2

If he's goon/goon, he doesn't need to ask about the BP preventing the NK. There's no other protective role in 3 and none at all in B. So that's out.

If he's goon/RB, he's trying to establish whether the kill was prevented by a BP or JK in A, or by a doctor in 2. So it makes sense to ask about a BP, because asking about a doc would draw suspicion.

TL;DR: Since Chrimi confirmed being a BP, we're in A, and TNE is in a team that includes a goon and a roleblocker. TNE for the rope, please.

[implosion]

All I can say is that I just played with Implosion (we were both town) and he seems different here. He seems, in my limited experience, like a really good player and a really close reader. I expect him to pick up on things like my intended vote, and he says he didn't. I expect him to remember that TNE's wagon was disbanding, not building up. If someone else made those sorts of mistakes I'd expect him to call them out on it, so for him to make the mistakes himself suggests to me that they're scum and not actual mistakes.

A few things here.
One, there are a lot of important differences between these two games:
- I played the majority of that game while on break, this game started a couple of weeks into my new job.
- That game was a ridiculously active large normal with twice as many players as this game.
- I'm an IC in this game, so of course my play is going to feel different on that level.

There are certain things that will be similar between the games (I mentioned earlier that that game is a good example of me getting townreads early). There are other things that won't be.

Two, I don't consider myself a particularly close reader. I don't typically double check the semantics of posts when I read them; semantics aren't as important as motivation when scumhunting. And I wouldn't 'call someone out' if I saw them make a mistake like that; I might mention it but it's not like a mistake like that is indicative of scum. I wouldn't intentionally misread something as scum (it's conceivable that I would put less effort into reading and therefore miss more things as scum but I don't think I really put less effort into games or would be more likely to miss things as scum).

I am curious about tne asking for the bp to claim (specifically in light of setup A as you mentioned). It makes sense if there are no other protective roles because obviously scum would know who the bp is and we wouldn't, but the possibility of a jailkeeper does make automatically claiming potentially bad. That said I can see a scum kill on chrimi as a possibility.

But I don't really want to draw as strong of a conclusion as you seem to be drawing without hearing what tne says.

[shannon]

Quickie reply because I'm on lunch -

1) I'm going to ISO Chrimi next and see whether there's anything worthy of a NK attempt. From memory nothing sticks out but I'll re-read in light of my new theory. (It's also possible that Chrimi is having a gambit of some sort here).

2) I'm drawing strong conclusions because usually, I equivocate over everything and it's not doing me any favours. This has led me to be obv town in every single game (including the scum ones). I've never been lynched, but I've also never won as town. So, time to shake things up a bit.

3) I acknowledge that my case is mostly circumstantial, but I think all those circumstances add up. We have someone who's not doing any significant scum hunting, has no town reads, and was the D1 first wagon. He discouraged me from giving advice to PRs, then comes back today asking whether we have a BP amongst us. I can't see any town advantage to knowing that info. I can see definite scum advantage. Assuming that the question was in fact scummy, by POE it is most likely to have come from a team with a roleblocker, and if this is the case, we need to 1) lynch TNE ASAP, and 2) prevent the scum team from finding any hint of our JK. If Chrimi was lying about being BP, same goes, but substitute 'other PRs' for JK.

[implosion]

PP's posting so far today is very lackluster:

That's.. very interesting? So we've got a JK, BP or both.

Wait...why just those two? Could there not also be a Doctor?

2) at some point, I believe a scum started directing the lynch (although not sure which).
When I say "directing" I mean, actively directing fire at him, as he already was the easiest and weakest candidate for a simple elimination.

Who do you think it was?

4) Why, if the priority to lynch and get info, did implosion ask 0x40 questions, and not add his vote? Especially since 0x40 was at L-2, and Implosion didn't consider this a 'sure' wagon? An info seeking vote could have really helped put the pressure on 0x40 to give us useable stuff instead of just attitude.

I agree with this being concerning. He's calling for consolidation on what ends up being town, but remains off the wagon himself.

Me forgetting this setup might have a doctor is suspicious? Oh boy.

Why would it be weird for someone to see a scumslip in that?

He's very much playing on the edge of the game, poking at various different things. In particular the way he says what I've done is "concerning," but doesn't really call it scummy nor join the 2-vote wagon on me; similarly to what he's accusing me of he's sort of applying pressure without committing, which is interesting if he thinks that my calling for consolidation without joining the wagon was scummy. He implies that it is reasonable to see what Chrimi said as a scumslip, but doesn't vote or really pressure her at all either. He's just looming on the sidelines. I think town-PP would probably have voted me in that post; it's 5 to lynch, so being a third vote to apply pressure on me isn't unreasonable. I think he's scum who is concerned how that vote will make him look, or who is trying to get a feel for how d2 will be playing out.

VOTE: PenguinPower

There's also some miscellaneous stuff from yesterday in his ISO I'm noticing like this:

Absent a scumslip, significant new information, or us getting within 72 hours of deadline, I don't see my vote changing until Rocnix - or her slot - returns and starts participating. You're still on my watchlist.

This implies he's keeping his vote on Rocnix specifically because she's gone missing and he wants to continue pressuring the slot, but he switches to 0x40 specifically because she had disappeared (for reference, a little over 96 hours before deadline I believe). That to me belies that he didn't actually have an internally consistent motivation for pushing Rocnix; the fact that he justified both keeping his vote on her and unvoting her with the fact that she had been gone suggests that he is not town, as town would either consider it a reason to keep voting or to not keep voting, as opposed to both.

[implosion]

Quickie reply because I'm on lunch -

1) I'm going to ISO Chrimi next and see whether there's anything worthy of a NK attempt. From memory nothing sticks out but I'll re-read in light of my new theory. (It's also possible that Chrimi is having a gambit of some sort here).

2) I'm drawing strong conclusions because usually, I equivocate over everything and it's not doing me any favours. This has led me to be obv town in every single game (including the scum ones). I've never been lynched, but I've also never won as town. So, time to shake things up a bit.

3) I acknowledge that my case is mostly circumstantial, but I think all those circumstances add up. We have someone who's not doing any significant scum hunting, has no town reads, and was the D1 first wagon. He discouraged me from giving advice to PRs, then comes back today asking whether we have a BP amongst us. I can't see any town advantage to knowing that info. I can see definite scum advantage. Assuming that the question was in fact scummy, by POE it is most likely to have come from a team with a roleblocker, and if this is the case, we need to 1) lynch TNE ASAP, and 2) prevent the scum team from finding any hint of our JK. If Chrimi was lying about being BP, same goes, but substitute 'other PRs' for JK.

I mean, honestly I don't think there are a ton of players who weren't potential nightkill targets last night. Chrimi makes sense because she was an active poster who could potentially take the fore in future days. I could see a lot of other players as well.

Drawing stronger conclusions isn't really the kind of thing that I think of as a playstyle experiment; I try to draw conclusions based on how strong I perceive the evidence to be. Winning games of mafia is a very complicated matter. But alas. I understand what you're saying about tne, and it makes complete sense that this is something that could be the case. I think the strongest piece of what you've said so far is that she mentioned rolefishing as bad earlier, but again I think there are simple possible explanations with her as town.

I think your train of thought right now reads as very town, though. So you're becoming a stronger townread. As is Chrimi I think (although we'll see later if the claims add up of course, so no need to focus on sorting her right now).

[Chrimi]

I like your wagon

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Cass]

@ tne: I really need you to explain your reasoning for demanding that roleclaim. It doesn't make sense to me right now and I'm inclined to agree with Shannon.

@Chrimi: I need you to explain your reasoning for the claim too. What made you conclude this was the optimal moment for it?

[shannon]

Put your vote where your mouth is Cass, let's get some pressure happening.

I don't mind the votes on PP either, but I want answers from TNE primarily.

[Drone]

Okay, Implosion's points on PP's behaviour is convincing and shows me he is a little shady. Kind of slipped under my radar when I've been skimming through day 1.
Now that I think of it, he could very much be the scum I've been concerned of "directing" the wagon on 0x40.
But he didn't raise the fire on 0x40.. I need to check his ISO. Never know what else I might find.

Chrimi's claim, although uncc'ed, is a bit off to me.
FoS: Chrimi.
Why would you roll with tne on the claim request?
Chrimi was quite actively producing flames on 0x40's, but she doesn't seem to be bashing just about anyone, 0x40's was bash - worthy too..

Vote: Cass.
Don't get me wrong, it's not an omgus vote. You didn't answer my question which directly refers to something you addressed.
Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
I anticipate your answer about Rocnix. Don't ignore something you started.

[Drone]

Ebwodp :

FoS: Chrimi

Vote: Drone

[Drone]

Ebwodp :

Unvote:
Vote: Cass

[Chrimi]

@ tne: I really need you to explain your reasoning for demanding that roleclaim. It doesn't make sense to me right now and I'm inclined to agree with Shannon.

@Chrimi: I need you to explain your reasoning for the claim too. What made you conclude this was the optimal moment for it?

Because we might have a jailkeeper which means I could be a conftown who gets to survive for a while

Scum knows whether we have a jailkeeper or a tracker now. If it's a tracker, then I'll be dead tonight. If it's a JK, then there will be an NK or someone else will die tonight.

And anyways Drone.. I understand if you're new, but.. I'm an un-cc'd claim. We just went over this in my last newbie game.. Claiming BP is a 3/4 chance of getting immediately counter claimed if I were scum.

[Cass]

Okay, Implosion's points on PP's behaviour is convincing and shows me he is a little shady. Kind of slipped under my radar when I've been skimming through day 1.
Now that I think of it, he could very much be the scum I've been concerned of "directing" the wagon on 0x40.
But he didn't raise the fire on 0x40.. I need to check his ISO. Never know what else I might find.

Chrimi's claim, although uncc'ed, is a bit off to me.
FoS: Chrimi.
Why would you roll with tne on the claim request?
Chrimi was quite actively producing flames on 0x40's, but she doesn't seem to be bashing just about anyone, 0x40's was bash - worthy too..

Vote: Cass.
Don't get me wrong, it's not an omgus vote. You didn't answer my question which directly refers to something you addressed.
Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
I anticipate your answer about Rocnix. Don't ignore something you started.

This post makes you sound even more like scum. Not because of the vote on me, but because of the spreading of suspicions: agreeing with Implosion on PP first, questioning Chrimi's claim - while not showing anything she said or did to cause doubt, except for the claim itself. And then finishing with a vote on me, for ignoring a question? No, until I read what TNE has to say for herself, I'm keeping my vote on you. It expresses the fact that I'm pretty convinced you are scum.

I take it this is the question you mean:

What you say does make sense, but as it is wrong and a bit twisted, it's invalid.
Do you have more points? Something explaining Rocnix's scumminess perhaps?
I might not be able to speak for her, but I want to know.

(What I say makes sense but is also wrong, twisted and invalid? Right...) I need to do an ISO to answer the actual question, which is a good idea anyways, and so I will. Just can't promise it's today.

@Chrimi: I'm not sure that logic quite works out, but as long as there is no CC I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. We can re-evaluate on day 3 (or, those of us still alive can...)

[shannon]

Alrighty, Chrimi ISO examined. TL;DR, a few very minor things bothered me, but overall it reads town.

The slightly bothersome things:
- Deflecting the question about not voting in 57
- Overall defensive tone, defending herself more than scum hunting (but not not-hunting, just really caught up in defending)

[Chrimi]

Alrighty, Chrimi ISO examined. TL;DR, a few very minor things bothered me, but overall it reads town.

The slightly bothersome things:
- Deflecting the question about not voting in 57
- Overall defensive tone, defending herself more than scum hunting (but not not-hunting, just really caught up in defending)

As per my meta.

[PenguinPower]

I think he's scum who is concerned how that vote will make him look, or who is trying to get a feel for how d2 will be playing out.

Why wouldn't town want to do the same? We're less than 2 days into D2. We've had a claim, but not everyone has responded since then. Why would I start/hop on a wagon so early? Re: Chrimi's possible scum slip...see post 552. I did the same, but shannon corrected. And yes, I haven't been very active D2...it's been a busy workweek this week. Sorry you're allowed to have that happen, but not me.

This implies he's keeping his vote on Rocnix specifically because she's gone missing and he wants to continue pressuring the slot, but he switches to 0x40 specifically because she had disappeared (for reference, a little over 96 hours before deadline I believe). That to me belies that he didn't actually have an internally consistent motivation for pushing Rocnix; the fact that he justified both keeping his vote on her and unvoting her with the fact that she had been gone suggests that he is not town, as town would either consider it a reason to keep voting or to not keep voting, as opposed to both.

It implies that Rocnix was my strongest scum read D1, but I wasn't going to risk the town getting a no lynch or rushing at deadline. I previously said that a deadline rush to lynch cost town the game in my last newbie. You can read whatever else into that you want, but I pretty objectively stated that.

You're case against me is that I don't play this game like you do.

[shannon]

Alrighty, Chrimi ISO examined. TL;DR, a few very minor things bothered me, but overall it reads town.

The slightly bothersome things:
- Deflecting the question about not voting in 57
- Overall defensive tone, defending herself more than scum hunting (but not not-hunting, just really caught up in defending)

As per my meta.

OMG but what about your aaaaaalts

[shannon]

This is in reply to PP 543 - -

The answer to why you'd start or hop on a wagon is to help find scum. Starting a wagon puts people on notice that they need to participate and be accountable for their actions. Hopping on a wagon adds pressure to someone who's already under suspicion. It helps us to get a response. (See, two votes are on you, and you're responding). If everyone waits and sees, no one does anything, You have a vote, use it.

[AstralFlare]

Weird game. I lost all confidence in my reads over the last two pages. Implosion's wagon onto PP looks sufficiently towny. There's a clear trajectory behind the vote, he's been angling for a PP lynch ever since Day One. If he was scum aiming for a mislynch this would be a weird time to do it as the day just started... there's no way town is going to trip over themselves to follow all the way through on the wagon.

Though come to think of it they could be bussing. Over the night I actually thought the NotSoInnocentVillagers were implosion and PP. Imp pushing the wagon now would clear him up while also ensuring PP isn't lynched. This is all very conjecture, but really I'm interested in seeing how the interaction between the two of them proceed.

Chrimi- I remember you once called imp weakly scummy. In that case why did you join his wagon?

And for the hypocrisy... VOTE: PP L-2.

[shannon]

PEdit:

Just saw Astral Flare's post pop up ahead of me hitting this one, and he's voted PP. I'm going to post my ISO check anyway, because I think that's the most honest thing to do. I can't vote PP, I can't see any scum motivation in his posts. What am I missing?

The other thing I want to note, AF, is that if you think the team could be Implosion and PP it might be best to vote for Implosion as he's most experienced. If those two are a team, I think PP will struggle without Implosion where as the reverse might not be so true.

***

ISOing PP -

I get newbie town vibes rather than scum vibes. Reading back, I think his response to Implosion's 531 is fair.

389- "Absent a scumslip, significant new information, or us getting within 72 hours of deadline, I don't see my vote changing until Rocnix - or her slot - returns and starts participating. "

410 - "Looks like Rocnix isn't coming back, and we won't get a replacement until D2. I will not support a TNE lynch, and I'm hesitant on Chrimi and AF. I'm willing to pursue Jibs or 0x40. Jibs has been more involved, but to what end...I don't know.

UNVOTE: Rocnix
VOTE: 0x40"

I can see why at this later stage in the day, PP changes his vote off of Rocnix. So overall, townish?

[AstralFlare]

Okay, Implosion's points on PP's behaviour is convincing and shows me he is a little shady. Kind of slipped under my radar when I've been skimming through day 1.
Now that I think of it, he could very much be the scum I've been concerned of "directing" the wagon on 0x40.
But he didn't raise the fire on 0x40.. I need to check his ISO. Never know what else I might find.

Chrimi's claim, although uncc'ed, is a bit off to me.
FoS: Chrimi.
Why would you roll with tne on the claim request?
Chrimi was quite actively producing flames on 0x40's, but she doesn't seem to be bashing just about anyone, 0x40's was bash - worthy too..

Vote: Cass.
Don't get me wrong, it's not an omgus vote. You didn't answer my question which directly refers to something you addressed.
Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
I anticipate your answer about Rocnix. Don't ignore something you started.

Why did you FoS Chrimi if you were convinced by implosion's case that PP was scum? What exactly about Chrimi's claim do you find 'off'?

OMG but what about your aaaaaalts

Yep I want aaaaaaaaall their names. Also what's your IRL name and address and phone number.

Joke's aside shannon's lines of questioning and trains of thought today have felt really town to me. She's probably done the most to scumhunt in fact. Now we just need TNE to reply...

I'm going to ISO Chrimi next and see whether there's anything worthy of a NK attempt. From memory nothing sticks out but I'll re-read in light of my new theory. (It's also possible that Chrimi is having a gambit of some sort here).

I think Chrimi was chosen to be NKed because she was the 'safe' choice. She was the one who stood out the most in terms of being aggressive, and would thus have the highest probability of finding scum through her pressure. If you look at the other players, there were two replacements, PP/me are kinda meh, TNE was just lurking with one liners and her wagon had a chance of continuing to the next day. So I think it was down between you, implosion (who has contenty but waffly posts) and Chrimi. Assuming everyone is town.

More random thoughts, this time on the Cass/Drone interaction (yeah this post isn't tyring to drive in any particular direction, just make up for my long absence):
I'm reading both of them as misguided townies right now. I like how Drone said his vote onto 0x40 was a policy lynch from the very start, and then stuck to his guns on it even when under pressure. Cass' observations are solid, but I don't think that FoSing three different people is necessarily scummy--I've done the exact same thing as a townie myself. Drone's argument is much weaker really, but again I think scum wouldn't have tried to make such a weak argument in the first place. A single vote is easy enough to just ignore.

Eg

Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.

It's called trying not to tunnel.

@Cass&Drone: As replacements, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the people who have been playing since the start. This doesn't have to be a thirty quote supported readlist, but I would appreciate a sense of the general feeling you have towards everyone. Just a lean town/null/lean scum would be good enough.

[shannon]

OK, here's a question for everyone. All else being equal, at the end of D1, who did you think would be the D2 lynch and why?