Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[0x40]

Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.

I honestly can't tell if you seriously believe in what you're saying right now or if you're just trying to set up a strawman here. Nobody is voting you just for having alts. Nobody is saying alts are against the rules. I'm voting you for contradicting yourself and then refusing to give the username of your other alt.

[shannon]

Hello Shannon! I have some questions for you.

VOTE: shannon

I do find it interesting that people are checking Chrimi's past games so thoroughly at such an early stage, based on what looked (to me) to be a reasonably off-hand comment. I personally don't delve in to past games looking for clues as to play style, I just go on what I remember from playing with them.

Do you see scum agenda behind the people questioning Chrimi?

IMHO having an alt account totally matters in a game like this. It's not like you're playing a hunter instead of a mage and that gives you different abilities. Unless you're faking a whole other personality, an alt in mafia only serves to obscure yourself to get an advantage over players who might otherwise recognise your style and your tells.

VOTE: Chrimi for being the sort of person who has alts to hide behind.

How much of this post was sarcastic?

I don't see scum in the people isoing Chrimi, I just think it's a little unusual for this stage in the game. Like someone said, it's a Very Serious Game

I *am* a stickler for rules but that was a reaction test

[PenguinPower]

a reaction test

@implosion

I've seen this a couple of times. I understand what a reaction test is in terms of testing someone's reaction. How is it actually used/intended to be used in forum mafia?

[implosion]

Are you guys seriously taking my first post's RVS joking self-vote as somehow scummy?

Are you actually surprised at this? Historically whenever I've seen people selfvote in RVS they drew scrutiny for it. Well at least the one example I can think of.

I honestly can't tell if you seriously believe in what you're saying right now or if you're just trying to set up a strawman here. Nobody is voting you just for having alts. Nobody is saying alts are against the rules. I'm voting you for contradicting yourself and then refusing to give the username of your other alt.

Contradictions aren't actually as good of a scumtell as you'd think they are in cases like this. To discern a town post from a scum post, you have to discern whether the post was motivated by town intent or scum intent. A contradiction like Chrimi mentioning that she has multiple alts then only mentioning one of them is extremely unlikely to be scum motivated - scum would not have motivation to intentionally lie in that way, both because it's very unlikely that hiding that extra alt account's information is actually going to help them as scum and because people may notice the discrepancy and call them out (but moreso the first). It's not indicative of Chrimi's alignment because it's far more likely that Chrimi simply misspoke or, as she said, simply didn't consider the hydra worthy of mentioning.

a reaction test

@implosion

I've seen this a couple of times. I understand what a reaction test is in terms of testing someone's reaction. How is it actually used/intended to be used in forum mafia?

It's kind of an overused concept. Reaction testing is a lot more potent in face-to-face or IRC mafia where you can get an immediate reaction to something and judge it quickly, whereas on a forum the typical IRC reaction test doesn't work because scum have as much time as they want to craft a response. On forum mafia the phrase reaction test is more often used to refer to someone intentionally saying something that they don't believe, or something that they think is incorrect, or pushing more strongly on a read than their confidence in the read would actually back up. Each of these is done for the sake of seeing how people react, but again, it's a different kind of reaction.

[implosion]

To me Chrimi's talk of alts is uninteresting. A more interesting post is this:

Chrimi, why are you

still

not voting?

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?

You guys do realize we're on page 3 right?

This reads to me as potentially scum-motivated in how defensive it is. The question was why she isn't voting; saying that "not voting at this stage isn't scummy" doesn't actually answer that question, it just deflects it. The second sentence sort of implies the answer of "it's page 3 and there's not enough for me to be confident on to vote," but if that's how she feels she simply could have answered the question that way.

[implosion]

I

believe

Chrimi is at L-2 but I'm not certain; I'd recommend not voting her until we get another vote count.

I may as well explain this aspect of site meta now as well: lynching Chrimi now would be bad because it's so early in the day (so we have very little information), but also because we wouldn't be giving her a chance to claim. At MS, the typical procedure is to put someone at L-1 (that is, one vote away from lynch) and then instead of hammering (voting the final vote), someone declares "intent to hammer" and asks for a claim. This is to prevent accidentally hammering a power role, especially one with useful information (like a cop with night results). It of course has the side effect that scum can sometimes claim power roles and still live, but the claiming post itself is often a very useful source of alignment-revealing information. I've had at least one game in memory where someone I was scumreading claimed cop, and there was a lot of hemming and hawing over whether we should still lynch them, which we did (they flipped scum). So it's not like claiming a power role automatically means we should take the pressure off, but especially on day one it usually will result in moving the lynch elsewhere. If they claim vanilla townie, the lynch will usually continue (but not always, if people change their minds).

[Rocnix]

Sorry about my silence for the last two pages, I've been away all day. I hadn't considered voting useful since almost everyone was talking, but I guess changing the situation would produce new information, so on that note:
VOTE: 0x40
Tell us about yourself!

(How close to the deadline do typical days get? More time means more info, but there's the risk that someone goes afk and too few people vote to lynch.)

[implosion]

People going afk isn't usually a big problem, because of replacements. There will always be lurkers who don't post nearly as much as they should but you kind of just need to learn to deal with them, either by reading them through what little they post, or pressuring them until they post more, or putting them off until later. And if some people aren't active near deadline, the active players usually loosen up on who they're willing to lynch to get a lynch through. Although I actually did see, in a recent game of mine for the first time that I've seen on MS (I think), a town fail to lynch anyone on d1. You don't want that to happen. I was scum so I didn't really care, I was sort of just basking in the chaos around me.

Day length depends on a lot of factors. I think the prevailing mindset among good players on the site is that towns on MS often spend more time than is necessary in early days. Once there's a consensus on who to lynch it shouldn't take a long time to actually push the lynch through. The real problem isn't people going afk necessarily, as if someone is too inactive then they'll be replaced. The bigger problem is that if days last too long without concrete new information being generated from things like alignment flips and roleclaims, towns will often lose motivation and suffer a lot as a result. That's not to say that we should lynch this early though .

I'd say a typical d1 lasts anywhere from half of the deadline to ~a day before deadline. Before then it's relatively rare (but it happens) for a wagon to form with enough support. Near the end of the day people tend to conglomerate more because they want to see a flip. It's not necessarily a bad thing if a lynch happens before then, though.

[Chrimi]

Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.

I honestly can't tell if you seriously believe in what you're saying right now or if you're just trying to set up a strawman here. Nobody is voting you just for having alts. Nobody is saying alts are against the rules. I'm voting you for contradicting yourself and then refusing to give the username of your other alt.

Yes but how is not wanting to give the names of all my alts scummy?

To me Chrimi's talk of alts is uninteresting. A more interesting post is this:

Chrimi, why are you

still

not voting?

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?

You guys do realize we're on page 3 right?

This reads to me as potentially scum-motivated in how defensive it is. The question was why she isn't voting; saying that "not voting at this stage isn't scummy" doesn't actually answer that question, it just deflects it. The second sentence sort of implies the answer of "it's page 3 and there's not enough for me to be confident on to vote," but if that's how she feels she simply could have answered the question that way.

"ggg-guys, don't defend yourselves! thats not what mafia is abouuuut"
"sh-she didn't word her answer the specific way I wanted her to"
"they were just asking the question c-cause they were curious, not because they're scumhunting!"

gg guys.

[Chrimi]

implosion, I shouldn't have to explain this to an

experienced player

, but here you go anyways:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

VOTE: implosion for pretending you don't already know this.

[implosion]

implosion, I shouldn't have to explain this to an

experienced player

, but here you go anyways:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

VOTE: implosion for pretending you don't already know this.

Yes, questions are generally to try to find scum, but that doesn't mean that if someone asks you a question they already think you're scum. To clarify my point, the way you reacted to that post showed that your first instinct was not to answer the question, it was to defend against it, and that potentially betrays a mindset where defending against potential attacks is more important than expediting others' scumhunting by answering questions.

Especially in the context of a newbie game, it's very silly to assume that being asked a question means that you're being scumread by the questioner. In this case it's obvious that you were being scumread (since AstralFlare was voting you), but that's not the point of what I said. The point of what I said is that your first reaction to the question essentially appeared to be that of preventative damage control. Mafia is certainly partially about defending yourself, and it's obvious that AstralFlare was scumhunting; the point I was making is subtler than what you make it out to be in 83. I find it a bit odd that your first instinct is that I'm fabricating my understanding of the game of mafia and not that you misunderstood what I was saying; I as scum would not pretend that I don't know simple aspects of the game.

[Chrimi]

So then town shouldn't defend themselves?

Mm, I'm going to go ahead and say you're wrong.

[Chrimi]

Yes, questions are generally to try to find scum, but that doesn't mean that if someone asks you a question they already think you're scum.
Especially in the context of a newbie game, it's very silly to assume that being asked a question means that you're being scumread by the questioner.

"Why would you assume you were being scumread???"

In this case it's obvious that you were being scumread (since AstralFlare was voting you), but that's not the point of what I said.

"I mean, it was obvious you were being scumread, but..."

Man, contradictions in the same post. This is astounding!

[Chrimi]

implosion- you can't honestly tell me you (as an experienced player) think the entire playerlist reading my meta because I self-voted RVS, and assuming that because I don't want to give the names of every one of my alts- is actually useful in some way, right?

Actually, maybe you can, considering you just asked "Why would you defend yourself as town???"

[implosion]

So then town shouldn't defend themselves?

Mm, I'm going to go ahead and say you're wrong.

Once again, not what I'm saying at all (in fact, I explicitly said the opposite of this).

Yes, questions are generally to try to find scum, but that doesn't mean that if someone asks you a question they already think you're scum.
Especially in the context of a newbie game, it's very silly to assume that being asked a question means that you're being scumread by the questioner.

"Why would you assume you were being scumread???"

In this case it's obvious that you were being scumread (since AstralFlare was voting you), but that's not the point of what I said.

"I mean, it was obvious you were being scumread, but..."

Man, contradictions in the same post. This is astounding!

The first point was a general comment on what you were saying about mafia as a game in general; the second was a comment on the specific situation. Again, I think this is pretty obvious.

implosion- you can't honestly tell me you (as an experienced player) think the entire playerlist reading my meta because I self-voted RVS, and assuming that because I don't want to give the names of every one of my alts- is actually useful in some way, right?

Actually, maybe you can, considering you just asked "Why would you defend yourself as town???"

You're right, I don't. And, again, I've explicitly said I don't. This isn't what AstralFlare was asking you about in the post in question!
He was asking you about why you weren't voting yet. Which is a totally legitimate question, which deserved an answer.
I have never once agreed with any of the questioning of your alts, and in fact spent half a post explaining why I see it as irrelevant. I don't know why you're trying to conflate the two.

[Chrimi]

He was asking you about why you weren't voting yet. Which is a totally legitimate question, which deserved an answer.

I gave it an answer. You whined about the answer not being worded the way you like.

[shannon]

What's with the attitude Chrimi?

[0x40]

Contradictions aren't actually as good of a scumtell as you'd think they are in cases like this. To discern a town post from a scum post, you have to discern whether the post was motivated by town intent or scum intent. A contradiction like Chrimi mentioning that she has multiple alts then only mentioning one of them is extremely unlikely to be scum motivated - scum would not have motivation to intentionally lie in that way, both because it's very unlikely that hiding that extra alt account's information is actually going to help them as scum and because people may notice the discrepancy and call them out (but moreso the first). It's not indicative of Chrimi's alignment because it's far more likely that Chrimi simply misspoke or, as she said, simply didn't consider the hydra worthy of mentioning.

Hiding alts is more harmful to town than it is to scum, because it makes it harder to get accurate reads. I guess it could be argued that that information also helps scum get pr reads, but the benefits of town having that information far outweighs the drawbacks of scum having that information. Hiding an alt is almost strictly an anti-town play, and is therefore scummy.

[0x40]

I gave it an answer. You whined about the answer not being worded the way you like.

Where did you answer his question? You never actually explained why you're not voting in post #58, you just said that it isn't scummy, something nobody even implied was the case.

[0x40]

Yes but how is not wanting to give the names of all my alts scummy?

Do you have any reason to not give that information? I think seeing more of your meta will help town make more informed decisions on who to lynch, and continuously refusing to give that information without even giving a reason for doing so is very much an anti-town play.

[PenguinPower]

Hiding alts is more harmful to town than it is to scum, because it makes it harder to get accurate reads. I guess it could be argued that that information also helps scum get pr reads, but the benefits of town having that information far outweighs the drawbacks of scum having that information. Hiding an alt is almost strictly an anti-town play, and is therefore scummy.

What's your prior experience with Mafia? You have a July '16 join date, but seem pretty experienced in your comments and questions.

[0x40]

Tell us about yourself!

Sure! This is my second game on here, but I've played a good amount on irc, so I know what I'm doing for the most part. Time zone is UTC+2. Not sure what more to say about myself that's relevant to the game.

[thenewearth]

thenewearth: Can you give me a read on penguinpower? Can you explain your read on shannon?

Shannon's vote

Incredibly scummy

Must die

[thenewearth]

Actually you know what?

Calling it right here

Shannon-Penguin

[Chrimi]

What's with the attitude Chrimi?

People are searching through my meta and starting an extremely early wagon on me for doing literally nothing scummy. It's amusing.

Yes but how is not wanting to give the names of all my alts scummy?

Do you have any reason to not give that information? I think seeing more of your meta will help town make more informed decisions on who to lynch, and continuously refusing to give that information without even giving a reason for doing so is very much an anti-town play.

I think you overestimate how useful meta is. It's not very much an anti-town play, especially since I made that alt

specifically for trying a different playstyle.

Meaning, I'm already trying to play very differently in those games, so the meta is going to be exponentially useless.

I gave it an answer. You whined about the answer not being worded the way you like.

Where did you answer his question? You never actually explained why you're not voting in post #58, you just said that it isn't scummy, something nobody even implied was the case.

Mm, if it isn't scummy, then take your vote somewhere else.

Contradictions aren't actually as good of a scumtell as you'd think they are in cases like this. To discern a town post from a scum post, you have to discern whether the post was motivated by town intent or scum intent. A contradiction like Chrimi mentioning that she has multiple alts then only mentioning one of them is extremely unlikely to be scum motivated - scum would not have motivation to intentionally lie in that way, both because it's very unlikely that hiding that extra alt account's information is actually going to help them as scum and because people may notice the discrepancy and call them out (but moreso the first). It's not indicative of Chrimi's alignment because it's far more likely that Chrimi simply misspoke or, as she said, simply didn't consider the hydra worthy of mentioning.

Hiding alts is more harmful to town than it is to scum, because it makes it harder to get accurate reads. I guess it could be argued that that information also helps scum get pr reads, but the benefits of town having that information far outweighs the drawbacks of scum having that information. Hiding an alt is almost strictly an anti-town play, and is therefore scummy.

This is just plain wrong, nothing else to say about it.