Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[Streeflo]

Day 2, Votecount #28!

dybeck (2) - originality, vollkan
Korlash (1) - dybeck

Not voting: Lucienne, shaft.ed, AlyG, Elias_the_Thief, Korlash, Gemelli

With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

Day 2 Deadline: November 1

[shaft.ed]

In effect, what I was trying to was to tell Orig not to NK in a slightly cryptic way so that I did not have to get rid of the uncertainty element. I knew that it was seen as anti-town of me, but I thought if I maintained that attitude I might be able to stop Orig NKing whilst still being able to keep the facade of it being "uncertain".

This is what I was assuming at the time, but it really can be read either way. And with originality's game quality to date, I wouldn't leave anything to cryptic.

[AlyG]

No I'm saying if you are so sure he is mafia then you should also account for the fact he is certain to be NK'd.

OK well let's lynch Korlash. In any event we get originality tomorrow.

unvote, vote: Korlash

So after a big post from Korlash (which was his first actual informative one) you don't even acknowledge it and go ahead and vote him. I have a HOS on you and to me you seem to be the most scummy person in the game so

Vote: Dybeck

[AlyG]

Day 2, Votecount #28!

dybeck (2) - originality, vollkan
Korlash (1) - dybeck

Not voting: Lucienne, vollkan, shaft.ed, AlyG, Elias_the_Thief, Korlash

With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

Day 2 Deadline: November 1

There's 1 small mistake there, Vollkan is listed voting Dybeck but is also listed as not voting.

[shaft.ed]

LA over weekends as usual.

[Korlash]

Well... I actually wasn't going to read anything right now.. I have all weekend off so tonight/tomorrow morning is all about this game! *Raises flag*

But... I have time.. so into Oman's brain I go!

It smells in here... >.>

Ok role fishing... I see he says that rolefishing is in a sense bad... so far so good... oh... Ok... Well... Being as how I HAVE to look at it as if I said it...

"Well, if he can prove himself, then we let him live. He proves himself to us N1 and we know for sure that he is said powerrole."

seems oddly worded to me for some reason... but I think it means "Come day two, if he has done his job (Whatever it was) And can prove it tomorrow then he lives.)

I don't see why anyone would say that... But, because of the wording, thats all I can think it means...

"No, I don't buy that. Info helps town, no matter what. It might help the mafia to some degree, but most of the time, the town will benefit."

I would have to defend his statement by saying that either A) The info he is talking about is not (Generally) about power roles or B) He is talking about an already claimed role and thus the more info the more likely the town will believe it. I mean once you claim, your pretty much on the mafia hot spot, so your best choice is to prove to the doc you are who you say you are and thus can survive the night... Unless your the doc and then... yeah... night night...

As for "Not feeling" um... that is exactly the type of little tiny worthless info

I

would use to attack someone... So the only way I know how to defend against it is by saying it is worthless/meaningless, everyone uses words, blah blah blah...

If I had to actually think about it... I would say that it could be Oman doing the whole "Skim and paraphrase thing" But that isn't as strong as if I were to say Oman posted first and it was Dybeck who rephrased it... It could be chalked up to the fact that Oman had just read up to that point and the wording was stuck in his head... or something... I don't know...

Next, the Ryan issue... Personally I played a game with him before where he more or less didn't defend himself... although I was one of the mafia that killed him so it might have just been me being awesome! Although, in this instance, Oman does seem to have been confused at what he had said. I agree, Ryan said "Instead of not scum hunting, why don't you do some scum hunting!" and Oman must have misunderstood him.

On a side note: what is the exact meaning of Ad Hominem? I think I tried to look it up in the Wiki once and either didn't find it or have forgot it... I know it means something along the lines of flaming or a personal attack... I just want to know the limitations, and bordering lines to it... also exact definition ><'

And now we get to the point where I reveal... when I began to read this thread I had convinced myself Oman most likely to get my vote when I finished.. and wouldn't you know... I get the PM and bam... I am Oman... great... I agree with you, he has got to be paranoid or something... Cause I personally see no reason he played the way he did... but I will try to create him an excuse.. here we go...

um...

He was stupid?

...

Seriously, two things here. A) He could still be confused about Ryans original statement and thus he sees it as Ryan trying to "lie" about what he said. and B) I personally know for a fact the best way to piss Ryan off into making mistakes is to mess with him... so If I honestly believed him to be mafia I would do anything to get him under pressure... Granted I did not see him as mafia and I do not agree with Oman's actions... just something to think about....

So theres my look into Oman's brain.... I would not be surprised if none of this convinces you about anything, and I would not be against votes based on Oman's actions, but I will right now tell you I am town, and logically, with three vanilla's down... I mean... I think my avy says it all... >.> <.<

what?

I didn't say anything... stop looking at me...

Promise to finish my read ASAP and get into the game as fast as I can... Especially seeing as how the deadline is drawing near...

Disclaimer: Oman takes no credit for the above excuses posted in the preceding. It is the sole right and property of Crap-Logic Korlash and due to his inability to logically get his point across should be ignored. Any advice given by the above named source should be ignored. posts by the above named are illegal in Maine, Wisconsin, Georgia, Europe, and half of the Indian Ocean. If you witness any posts of this nature or know of someone who has you are strongly advised to lock yourself in your room with nothing but a can of Redbull and a bag of Doritos and call your local authorities and tell them "Someone stole my toilet and I have nothing to go on..."

[Korlash]

Oops... Ok well I had completely forgotten that the new rule twelve also included no

SMALL

text I thought it only had no invisible... so:

Disclaimer: Oman takes no credit for the above excuses posted in the preceding. It is the sole right and property of Crap-Logic Korlash and due to his inability to logically get his point across should be ignored. Any advice given by the above named source should be ignored. posts by the above named are illegal in Maine, Wisconsin, Georgia, Europe, and half of the Indian Ocean. If you witness any posts of this nature or know of someone who has you are strongly advised to lock yourself in your room with nothing but a can of Redbull and a bag of Doritos and call your local authorities and tell them "Someone stole my toilet and I have nothing to go on..."

sorry... I need to remember to not take my jokes so far as to actually break rules... Can I just get a warning this time or something? No need to kill me for this right... All fixed now... *hides under bed*

[vollkan]

Korlash, your abuse of punctuation makes me want to cry. Ellipsises are not an alternative to singular full-stops.

On a side note: what is the exact meaning of Ad Hominem? I think I tried to look it up in the Wiki once and either didn't find it or have forgot it... I know it means something along the lines of flaming or a personal attack... I just want to know the limitations, and bordering lines to it... also exact definition ><'

Ad hominem is argument to the person and it is a logical fallacy.

The basic gist of it is:
Person A says X.
Person A has some objectionable trait Q.
Therefore, X is false.

Usually, it just takes the form of "WTF that's stupid!" or something like that. It's all about attacking the person rather than the argument.

So theres my look into Oman's brain.... I would not be surprised if none of this convinces you about anything, and I would not be against votes based on Oman's actions, but I will right now tell you I am town, and logically, with three vanilla's down... I mean...

I think my avy says it all...

>.> <.<

Congraturations, you just earned a patented *HEADDESK*!

Why on earth did you just claim vanilla?! You do realise that if you are town all you are doing is flagging to the mafia precisely where the power roles are likely to be, because you have just told them that you are not one.

[Korlash]

Actually I said " I didn't say anything... stop looking at me... "

And be careful... I don't think now is a good time to start any sort of role "fishing" now, be it to fish my role, warn me not to say it, or even to try and confuse the mafia by throwing them off the scent... I claimed town, then said I was hungry for ice cream... Leave it at that until I get caught up... Unless your trying to start a WIFOM situation here that only forces me to abandon my reading and instead put all effort into the here and now...

And define Ellipsises... do you mean Parenthesis? Cause if not I have no idea what your talking about... heck even now I still don't...

[vollkan]

And be careful... I don't think now is a good time to start any sort of role "fishing" now, be it to fish my role, warn me not to say it, or even to try and confuse the mafia by throwing them off the scent... I claimed town, then said I was hungry for ice cream... Leave it at that until I get caught up... Unless your trying to start a WIFOM situation here that only forces me to abandon my reading and instead put all effort into the here and now...

Korlash, it is not role-fishing for me to tell you not to claim vanilla. Any player with a grain of sense would do exactly the same thing.

You claimed vanilla. I don't care if it is genuine or not and I have no intention of pursuing any further, but you should know that claiming vanilla when you are not under pressure of lynch is incredibly anti-town.

Furthermore, stop looking for reaching for ulterior motives. I am not trying to distract you from your read. You are claiming vanilla and acting all confused and naive, of course I am going to step in and say something.

And define Ellipsises

...

do you mean Parenthesis? Cause if not I have no idea what your talking about

...

heck even now I still don't

...

I bolded 3 of the damn things in that quoted bit alone. An ellipsis is one of these ... <---- Those three bloody dots

A full stop will be perfectly sufficient.

Look:

And define ellipsises. Do you mean parenthesis? Cause if not I have no idea what you're talking about. Heck, even now I still don't.

So much less cluttered and easier to read.

[originality]

Seconding the ellipse thing. I had to try so hard... not to... make fun... of the way.. you write...

Anyways I understand it is probably habit for you, but please stop. It bothers me. Get rid of those and we cool, dawg.

subject #2:

What I got from what you said was that you didn't claim vanilla at all, you were actually talking about ice cream. Is this right?



I'm not gonna say anything else about you right now since you haven't caught up. Can't yet tell how you play compared to Oman. Except for the damned ellipses.

[vollkan]

I thought he was prematurely claiming vanilla because he said he was town and then said:

I mean,I think my avy says it all [ellipsises removed to prevent brain esplosion]

If you weren't, that's fine.

[Elias_the_thief]

What I got from what you said was that you didn't claim vanilla at all, you were actually talking about ice cream. Is this right?

How you got that from his comment, I'm really not sure. Maybe this was a joke or something, but if not...wow.

[vollkan]

How you got that from his comment, I'm really not sure. Maybe this was a joke or something, but if not...wow.

Korlash's avatar has an icecream in it as "100% vanilla" but he made no mention of icecream in his post. He just said he was town and then referred to his avatar, which said vanilla.

I don't get why Orig thinks he meant vanilla at first instance...

[vollkan]

EDIT: In the last line that should be "vanilla icecream". I was saying that I don't get why Orig thinks that it was obviously talking about vanilla icecream rather than the role.

[originality]

Was talking about this post, Elias. I asked whether he was talking about ice cream only after I read him saying that (I asked because I didn't really get if that was what he was really talking about, his answer confused me), because originally I got the same idea that he was claiming vanilla town.

Actually I said " I didn't say anything... stop looking at me... "

And be careful. I don't think now is a good time to start any sort of role "fishing" now, be it to fish my role, warn me not to say it, or even to try and confuse the mafia by throwing them off the scent.I claimed town, then said I was hungry for ice cream. Leave it at that until I get caught up. Unless your trying to start a WIFOM situation here that only forces me to abandon my reading and instead put all effort into the here and now.

And define Ellipsises.do you mean Parenthesis? Cause if not I have no idea what your talking about. heck even now I still don't.

Look, I fixed it. Doesn't it look pretty

[Korlash]

Like I care what you think... of how I post...

look, Me claiming town is pretty much the only defense I have for Oman's bad playing, so thats what I did......................................

And claiming vanilla is THE BEST THING i can do as town,

A) I don't have to give up my actual role. (Provided I have one)

B) It means I am less likely to be night killed by the vig and/or mafia, meaning if I actually do have a role it is not in jeopardy.

and C) It is a very hard thing for anyone, town or mafia, to disprove.

And whether you like it or not, you bringing up how me claiming vanilla is bad for town is the first step to make me either actually claim, or admit to having a power role. Take the whole Dr. BS (laughs) thing. He said something, people jumped on it, forcing him to say he doesn't actually claim something, which is then used against him later.

If you were actually protown there vollkan you shouldn't be so worried about someone claiming vanilla. We are down 3 vanilla already, thus, theoretically, every single one of us town left could have a power role. (Provided the mafia also got one) Stop trying to kill off a viable defense for an unknown power role.

Now where was I...

Hmm...

Can't remember...

Look... Dots...

d..o..t..s.. O.o

And just so you know, I'm surprised out of you three Orig is the smartest... really I am... honestly... really... truly... I... am... Although he still is dumb as a rock isn't he... Man... You guys are worse then Streeflo at getting jokes

And if it bothers you guys THAT much I will agree to stop with my trademark dots if you never do another number crunching again. Is it worth it to you? Think carefully here... (Just to piss you off <3)

[vollkan]

look, Me claiming town is pretty much the only defense I have for Oman's bad playing, so thats what I did......................................

No. The best defence would be for you to try and rationalise things or, failing that, to just admit you don't have a clue.

And claiming vanilla is THE BEST THING i can do as town,

A) I don't have to give up my actual role. (Provided I have one)

B) It means I am less likely to be night killed by the vig and/or mafia, meaning if I actually do have a role it is not in jeopardy.

and C) It is a very hard thing for anyone, town or mafia, to disprove.

A) You are setting up a false dichotomy here. You do not need to claim anything. A claim is not a defence and you were in no peril of being lynched.
B) And if you

don't

have a role it means that the scum are more likely to hit a power role. Please, DO NOT claim power role!! (I can just see where this is head....) C) That doesn't help us in any way whatsoever.

And whether you like it or not, you bringing up how me claiming vanilla is bad for town is the first step to make me either actually claim, or admit to having a power role.

No it is not. As a rule, you should never claim vanilla prematurely. Why?
a) If you are vanilla, it means that the scum know that you are safe not to NK and have a higher likelihood of hitting a power role.
b) If you are a power role, it draws attention onto yourself which can result in suspicion which can result in forced claim, which just flags you to the scum.

If you were actually protown there vollkan you shouldn't be so worried about someone claiming vanilla. We are down 3 vanilla already, thus, theoretically, every single one of us town left could have a power role. (Provided the mafia also got one) Stop trying to kill off a viable defense for an unknown power role.

Claiming is NOT a defence. Furthermore, prematurely claiming vanilla is not a viable strategy in any event because of what I said above.

And if it bothers you guys THAT much I will agree to stop with my trademark dots if you never do another number crunching again. Is it worth it to you? Think carefully here... (Just to piss you off <3)

Why would you want us to stop number-crunching?

*sigh* It seems Oman has been replaced by a village idiot.

[originality]

Listen, if you claim vanilla, you will not be able to claim anything else ever in the future without being called a liar and consequently getting lynched. So it is better not to lie, and simply not mention it.

Why bring it up at all? You were in absolutely zero pressure.

[Korlash]

Actually I was replacing a guy that all game seemed to me the best choice for a lynch. And, seeing as how Gemelli asked me to try and explain Oman's actions I did. But I cannot speak for him, so I ended it with I am town as my last and only real "explanation" (I sometimes replace this word with defense just so you know Vollkan. I only say this cause I know the next time I do your going to ram it down my throat three or four times that its 'not a viable defense! blah blah blah')

And why would you want me to stop with the dots? They should in no way hinder the game, pressure you, danger town in anyway, make my posts that much more messy. I mean its TWO EXTRA DOTS FOR ****'s sake... <see! In fact it should make it easier to read by putting additional space between sentences allowing your eyes and brain to better take it all in. But to each his own. I told you I am willing to stop if you do, and I doubt it will be to long before you do another number crunch and then its back to dotdotdot every two sentences. Can't wait!

And I shouldn't have to claim anything in the future. (Provided I am just an ordinary towny)

Orig who says I'm lying? Who says I'm telling the truth. I'm not dumb enough to claim ANYTHING other then simple town before I read every post my predecessor made.

And, just because I would rather post then read I will illustrate a few simple scenarios for you.

SCENARIO ONE:

First, I just made an argument about Vollkan's "AlyG blah blah Oman blah blah scum would act blah blah" Excuse he made. Seeing as how his point was against Oman (Me) I feel that me, trying out what he calls a "strategy" against him, would make sense in me understanding the way it worked and if there was any viable claim in its use. If this is the case, I think I would have gotten the exact response I would have wanted, which is Vollkan to respond to it. Now I find this scenario hard to believe, or do I? Who knows. I won't say one way or another.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "It's nothing like what I did!"
2) "I never called it a strategy, I said 'Technique'! stop putting words in my mouth scum!"
3) "How would you know I would be the one to respond? Your just trying to make an excuse!"
4) "My responce is not scummy! It is blah blah not protown blah blah what you did... etc!"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) I could argue similarities and you could argue differences all day, big point, if you just throw this scenario out the window without thinking it over for a second, you prove (TO ME!) that what you did was BS and thus I will not just simply forget about what you did to Oman (Me) and I will not drop my case against you.

2) I swap similar words sometimes, sue me. Defense and excuse can

sometimes

(Key word) mean the same thing. I also think technique and strategy are similar enough to be used to replace each other once. I am not trying to put words in your mouth (even though I am trying to predict the future ^^)

3) How did you know Oman was going to respond? Perhaps it was a trap to catch anyone and you just fell into it. *shrugs*

4) I have not said my views on your actual response (in this post at least) thus I do not claim it to be scummy or pro town.

SCENARIO TWO:

Perhaps, I (as town, call me newb if you want. call me stupid, call me a free thinker, call me on my cell phone) did not think that claiming town was a bad thing. I mean, don't we all claim town, without even saying it? Who would not say they were town? "I'm not town! Don't lynch me!" probably won't fly. Also, Note that I did see claiming vanilla as a not so good thing, thus I did not come right out and say it. I hinted at it, I also hinted at the same time to being a power role, yet you conveniently left that part out. So, all in all, all I did was tell you guys I am town so that you might go easy on me over what Oman did pre-me.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "How can you not see that claiming vanilla is a bad thing?"
2) "If you thought claiming vanilla was not a good thing why did you do it?"
3) "Where did you claim power role?"
4) "Why even claim anything? You were not in danger/under pressure!"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) well, while it may bring pressure towards me and a vote or two, no town would lynch someone for claiming vanilla townie. So by doing it you are mostly guaranteed to not be NKed AND not be lynched. So I think, coming in right now, not being lynched or NKed would benefit me so I can catch up.

2) I didn't do it. I only said "my avy says it all." Where in that sentence do you see the words "I, am, or vanilla townie"?

3) "...and logically, with three vanilla's down..." To me, this should set off red flags. Logically, three VTs down, more chance to be a power role! Does me not claiming a power role incriminate me as much as me not claiming Vanilla townie Vollkan? Should I just go ahead and claim Mafia and let you and your scum partners win? [/sarcasm]

4) I claimed town for two reasons. 1) I had just come from trying to defend/excuse Oman's stupidity. So I wanted to clarify that I was actually town. And 2) it opened up me "not claiming vanilla or power role" leaving me to agree with whatever Oman said he was. (Such as if on page 30 he said he was a vanilla townie I would not have contradicted that, while if he had said he was a power role, hinted he was, or actually claimed something, Doc/Cop/RB/Vig etc, I could continue that.)

And I know someone will bring it up so don't take that as me saying "I am mafia and I needed to know what lie Oman said!!!!"

Don't tell me a vanilla townie wouldn't hint at a power role so he had a chance of being the NK instead of the actual role. At the same time don't tell me a power role would not say vanilla if asked/forced to claim.

Another Scenario?

Perhaps I am just a village idiot as you called me, you moron, (I can take a few insults, but expect them back eventually. You don't make friends by name calling! Tsk tsk!) and made a simple newbie mistake!

No. I am fully confident what I did was in no way anti-town or pro-mafia. It may not be full blown BEST FOR TOWN, but it is a GOOD FOR ME in the end. And, while I care about the town, I am not reading 43 F***ing pages just to be F***ing NKed by the damn Vig.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "How is this GOOD FOR YOU?"
2) Why would you do anything that was not best for town?"
3) "So you are not afraid to be killed by the mafia?"
4) "How does this make you a sure win for not being lynched?"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) Its good on these points:
a) I can confirm whatever Oman said, b) I have officially claimed "Town!" If you tell me how this is bad(As in either a scum tell, or a surefire way to be lynched/NKed) for me I will vote myself. and c) I already told you how I THINK it makes it less likely I am killed.

2) Because, sometimes, it is a lot better to sacrifice the RB/Vig to protect someone else. Not to mention I am modest and think I am best for town being left alive.

3) No. I have no fear that you will kill me tonight Vollkan. I think you would much rather kill off Orig. and if not that, I guarantee you would kill off Shaft.ed just in case the VIg kills one of your partners You look completely innocent tomorrow. Killing me tonight would stop me being a good candidate for a lynch tomorrow.

4) You seem to think its suspicious yet no vote. Orig agrees yet no vote. Elias didn't even comment on it so no vote. See a pattern? This one little detail did not net me a single vote. Thus, no pressure, no fear of a lynch, and above all some active discussion so you all get to know me. I hate unknowns and, even with all of Oman's comments, I am still somewhat unknown to you guys as I play differently, and do not have all the answers he did.

So there you have it... Three very likely scenarios. I left off two that I thought of that involved me being mafia simply because I am not mafia so I personally do not see them as being possible. You are more then welcome to illustrate them yourself and I will post-record a response to it later.

Oh and before you ask, this post was not because I felt pressured. It was all in responce to:

Why bring it up at all? You were in absolutely zero pressure.

I feel I have fully answered his question, Sorta. And, Provided Vollkan does not come at me again with another lame(To me at least) reason/attack against me I will not be posting until I have fully caught up! YAY!

Till then, peace!

[Gemelli]

So after a big post from Korlash (which was his first actual informative one) you don't even acknowledge it and go ahead and vote him. I have a HOS on you and to me you seem to be the most scummy person in the game so

Vote: Dybeck

AlyG, can you articulate your reason for voting Dybeck more clearly? Saying "you seem to be the most scummy person in the game" doesn't really explain WHAT about his behavior you find scummy. With a deadline, it is becoming more and more important for all of us to explain our thinking.

Along those lines,

Lucienne:

please let us know if/when you will be able to post more thoughts on the game to date. Family takes priority, obviously, but I'd like to be sure that we hear from you before we get deadlined.

...

First off, thank you for responding to the questions I raised in post 1055. As you noted, it's hard to imagine what was going on in Oman's head when he made the arguments he did, but I commend you for at least not dodging my request and having an honest go at it.

Congraturations, you just earned a patented *HEADDESK*!

Why on earth did you just claim vanilla?! You do realise that if you are town all you are doing is flagging to the mafia precisely where the power roles are likely to be, because you have just told them that you are not one.

Vollkan, I think you are strongly overreacting here.

If you had bolded the portion of the sentence that read "I am town, and logically, with three vanilla's down..." you could have just as easily made the case that he was implying a power role. I mean, the avatar includes the words "100% vanilla," but it also includes a picture of an evil demon thing waggling its eyebrows. I detect a certain amount of sarcasm from the combination.

And while I would agree with you that it is NOT rolefishing to tell someone not to claim vanilla, asking the question "why did you claim vanilla?" when he hadn't done so IS rolefishing a bit, of the "have you stopped beating your wife" school. It's almost impossible to answer your question without giving away some information about whether you are vanilla or not.

That being said, Korlash: the statement "I am of town alignment" is meaningless in this game. Every player in the game will make that statement if you ask them to confirm or refute it. That isn't a defense. I think you were prodded into this direction by vollkan's posts, but you didn't need to go there. You're being a bit defensive and that isn't going to help allay suspicion of you.

Why would you want us to stop number-crunching?

*sigh* It seems Oman has been replaced by a village idiot.

Please re-read what you wrote in post 1107. I understand your frustration, but you don't need to resort to fallacious arguments yourself.

I think it is understandable for a new player, who has just read all 45 pages of this thread -- including a lot of long, long analytical posts -- to express a distaste for reading long math-heavy posts. I personally think the details are helpful, but only to a point. When posts are excessively detailed (and I am as guilty of this as anyone), I think that some people will skim them instead of reading the details. And if we seem to be covering the same ground that's been gone over already, there's a good chance that any NEW information you've provided will be missed.

That being said, I would like to propose the following decision-tree structure for determining the best three optimal town actions (3a, 3b, and 3c) on Day 3, where T is the number of scum players killed on D2/N2, N is the total number of players remaining, etc. I think that the math speaks for itself, but please let me know if you need me to explain it, so the rest of us may mock you for your feeble brainpower.

http://usera.imagecave.com/thinbluemime ... -07-03.png

Mod Note: Picture changed to link

</joke>

[Gemelli]

Gah.

Mod,

feel free to replace that embedded picture with a linked URL. I did not mean to break the thread width there.

[Streeflo]

Votecount fixed.

Embedded picture changed to URL

Reminder: NO INVISIBLE/SMALL TEXT

Korlash

: I will not modkill you. Just be more careful next time.

[vollkan]

Let me put this gently: I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. I will try and address your "points" (?) but bear in mind that you are confusing me chronically.

SCENARIO ONE:

First, I just made an argument about Vollkan's "AlyG blah blah Oman blah blah scum would act blah blah" Excuse he made. Seeing as how his point was against Oman (Me) I feel that me, trying out what he calls a "strategy" against him, would make sense in me understanding the way it worked and if there was any viable claim in its use. If this is the case, I think I would have gotten the exact response I would have wanted, which is Vollkan to respond to it. Now I find this scenario hard to believe, or do I? Who knows. I won't say one way or another.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "It's nothing like what I did!"
2) "I never called it a strategy, I said 'Technique'! stop putting words in my mouth scum!"
3) "How would you know I would be the one to respond? Your just trying to make an excuse!"
4) "My responce is not scummy! It is blah blah not protown blah blah what you did... etc!"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) I could argue similarities and you could argue differences all day, big point, if you just throw this scenario out the window without thinking it over for a second, you prove (TO ME!) that what you did was BS and thus I will not just simply forget about what you did to Oman (Me) and I will not drop my case against you.

2) I swap similar words sometimes, sue me. Defense and excuse can sometimes (Key word) mean the same thing. I also think technique and strategy are similar enough to be used to replace each other once. I am not trying to put words in your mouth (even though I am trying to predict the future ^^)

3) How did you know Oman was going to respond? Perhaps it was a trap to catch anyone and you just fell into it. *shrugs*

4) I have not said my views on your actual response (in this post at least) thus I do not claim it to be scummy or pro town.

1) So in short, because I laid a trap against Oman you now suspect me? Is this all an OMGUS thing?
2) No. I knew precisely what you meant. My point is that it is no defence/explanation/excuse/justification/whatever word you want to use to simply claim vanilla and then suggest we all move on.
3) Well, it was a gamble, wasn't it. In Mini 486, mafOman fell for a trap so I thought I would try it again here.
4) Okay then.

SCENARIO TWO:

Perhaps, I (as town, call me newb if you want. call me stupid, call me a free thinker, call me on my cell phone) did not think that claiming town was a bad thing. I mean, don't we all claim town, without even saying it? Who would not say they were town? "I'm not town! Don't lynch me!" probably won't fly. Also, Note that I did see claiming vanilla as a not so good thing, thus I did not come right out and say it. I hinted at it, I also hinted at the same time to being a power role, yet you conveniently left that part out. So, all in all, all I did was tell you guys I am town so that you might go easy on me over what Oman did pre-me.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "How can you not see that claiming vanilla is a bad thing?"
2) "If you thought claiming vanilla was not a good thing why did you do it?"
3) "Where did you claim power role?"
4) "Why even claim anything? You were not in danger/under pressure!"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) well, while it may bring pressure towards me and a vote or two, no town would lynch someone for claiming vanilla townie. So by doing it you are mostly guaranteed to not be NKed AND not be lynched. So I think, coming in right now, not being lynched or NKed would benefit me so I can catch up.

2) I didn't do it. I only said "my avy says it all." Where in that sentence do you see the words "I, am, or vanilla townie"?

3) "...and logically, with three vanilla's down..." To me, this should set off red flags. Logically, three VTs down, more chance to be a power role! Does me not claiming a power role incriminate me as much as me not claiming Vanilla townie Vollkan? Should I just go ahead and claim Mafia and let you and your scum partners win? [/sarcasm]

4) I claimed town for two reasons. 1) I had just come from trying to defend/excuse Oman's stupidity. So I wanted to clarify that I was actually town. And 2) it opened up me "not claiming vanilla or power role" leaving me to agree with whatever Oman said he was. (Such as if on page 30 he said he was a vanilla townie I would not have contradicted that, while if he had said he was a power role, hinted he was, or actually claimed something, Doc/Cop/RB/Vig etc, I could continue that.)

And I know someone will bring it up so don't take that as me saying "I am mafia and I needed to know what lie Oman said!!!!"

Don't tell me a vanilla townie wouldn't hint at a power role so he had a chance of being the NK instead of the actual role. At the same time don't tell me a power role would not say vanilla if asked/forced to claim.

This one is still insane, but I at least know what you are generally talking about: the vanilla claim thing.

1) Not true. In fact, some people actually have a "Lynch All Vanillas" policy. I don't, but the fact is that a vanilla claim is incredibly dodgy and will get you suspected by a lot of people. It is inherently anti-town when done prematurely (as yours was).
2) Your avatar says "100% vanilla". Don't be obtuse here.
3) Claiming a power role would be idiotic, but it would not be incriminating. I would be pissed as all hell if you did that, because that can only help the scum, but it would not incriminate you.
4) *headdesks*
1. It does not clarify that you are town in any way shape or form. All you have done is say "I am town". Well, wonderful, are we meant to just accept that at face value and ignore anything suspicious from you from now on?
2. Oman should not have done it back then and you should not be continuing it now. The fact remains that you had no reason to claim vanilla.

Another Scenario?

Perhaps I am just a village idiot as you called me, you moron, (I can take a few insults, but expect them back eventually. You don't make friends by name calling! Tsk tsk!) and made a simple newbie mistake!

No. I am fully confident what I did was in no way anti-town or pro-mafia. It may not be full blown

BEST FOR TOWN, but it is a GOOD FOR ME in the end.

And, while I care about the town, I am not reading 43 F***ing pages just to be F***ing NKed by the damn Vig.

Main points I expect Vollkan to come back at me over this:

1) "How is this GOOD FOR YOU?"
2) Why would you do anything that was not best for town?"
3) "So you are not afraid to be killed by the mafia?"
4) "How does this make you a sure win for not being lynched?"

Prerecorded response to each of these:

1) Its good on these points:
a) I can confirm whatever Oman said, b) I have officially claimed "Town!" If you tell me how this is bad(As in either a scum tell, or a surefire way to be lynched/NKed) for me I will vote myself. and c) I already told you how I THINK it makes it less likely I am killed.

2) Because, sometimes, it is a lot better to sacrifice the RB/Vig to protect someone else. Not to mention I am modest and think I am best for town being left alive.

3) No. I have no fear that you will kill me tonight Vollkan. I think you would much rather kill off Orig. and if not that, I guarantee you would kill off Shaft.ed just in case the VIg kills one of your partners You look completely innocent tomorrow. Killing me tonight would stop me being a good candidate for a lynch tomorrow.

4) You seem to think its suspicious yet no vote. Orig agrees yet no vote. Elias didn't even comment on it so no vote. See a pattern? This one little detail did not net me a single vote. Thus, no pressure, no fear of a lynch, and above all some active discussion so you all get to know me. I hate unknowns and, even with all of Oman's comments, I am still somewhat unknown to you guys as I play differently, and do not have all the answers he did.

Call me whatever the hell you like; I make a point of never being offended by anything.

The bolded bit there is rather, erm, interesting. Surely you realise that your priority should be helping the town, not ensuring your own survival. The excuse about not wanting to be vigged justifies this position in no way at all.

1)
a) You are not confirming Oman's claim...you are simply restating it. If I say "I am doctor" in post #20 and then repeat it in post #2000 it does not confirm my claim's veracity.
b) It is bad for town if you are telling the truth about being vanilla because:
I) Scum will NK elsewhere and will likely hit a powerrole
II) You may have now drawn suspicion onto yourself and not onto scum
It is bad for town if you are a power role lying because:
I) You may have now drawn suspicion onto yourself and not onto scum
II) It makes any genuine pre-lynch claim less believable.
Fine, it does make your NK less likely if you are power-role, but there are other disadvantages and, given that we already have two claimed power roles, it is unlikely that an unclaimed you would have been NKed anyway.

2) I would prefer to keep a RB/Vig over a modest vanilla you any day.

3) So you think I am mafia? With who?

4) Yes, because Elias, Orig and myself are not the type to vote on vanilla claims but many people do. As I have already said, it makes a power claim at pre-lynch more doubtful and is wholly unnecessary. As I said, I have encountered people who adhere to a "LaV" approach.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, I think you are strongly overreacting here.

If you had bolded the portion of the sentence that read "I am town, and logically, with three vanilla's down..." you could have just as easily made the case that he was implying a power role. I mean, the avatar includes the words "100% vanilla," but it also includes a picture of an evil demon thing waggling its eyebrows. I detect a certain amount of sarcasm from the combination.

I know what you are saying, but he said:

I think my avy says it all.

and the avatar says vanilla.

And while I would agree with you that it is NOT rolefishing to tell someone not to claim vanilla, asking the question "why did you claim vanilla?" when he hadn't done so IS rolefishing a bit, of the "have you stopped beating your wife" school. It's almost impossible to answer your question without giving away some information about whether you are vanilla or not.

The proper response would simply be to say: "I did not claim vanilla. You may have misunderstood"

It does not give away anything.

Please re-read what you wrote in post 1107. I understand your frustration, but you don't need to resort to fallacious arguments yourself.

I wasn't using ad hom. I attacked each of his arguments from a purely logical basis. I just called him VI at the end because I thought his logic was so wonky at points.

Oh, and please enlighten me as to what your equation tells us