Mini 490: Speed Mafia - GAME OVER.

[Sonicpulsar]

BM, did me calling you out on my vote have anything to do with your subsequent vote Chronx? I was hoping to somewhat bully you in to taking your vote off of me in hopes you'd vote for Chronx. If you'd happened to jump on the Gorgon bandwagon, I was gonna have to figure out a way to get the attention away from him. In fact, I think Distad had the same idea. We needed the RBer too much.

As for my mugger role, it was damn near useless. The Doc protection on N1 was nice, but turned out not needed. Other that the Doc, the only useful ability I could have acquired was your JoAL stuff. But it was told that I had only one night to use my acquired abilites or they were lost.

Also, the fact I was a mugger and we had a RBer helped make me believe the Tracker claim since the same goon would be doing the NKs and another would be RBing every night.

[Sonicpulsar]

I followed Gorgon on the night Raffles died. He went to BM's house.

The problem for me was, Gorgon has acted weird this whole game. And he was alluding to claiming due to the pressure BM had been putting on him to claim. And he hammered CKD, although claiming not to have realized he was doing so.

So I followed him again on the night d3sisted/mason was killed. Here's where it gets weird...he didn't go anywhere. His claim is that he went and blocked Atticus.

The problem I have with all of this is that I don't know what it means. Was I roleblocked but not informed, and instead just told he stayed home, as that what it would seem to me? Or did he lie? Or did he lie, but only about who he roleblocked...maybe he roleblocked ME because he doubted my claim, and THAT is what made me get the result I appeared to get. Or maybe he is a mafia roleblocker and roleblocked me because he DIDN'T doubt my claim.

I dragged out sharing this because it is so ambiguous, and I wanted as much untainted info as I could get out of people before I spoke of it. Personally, I wanted to press SP and Atticus to claim before I posted this, but I didn't think the rest of you would have any patience with that, and didn't want to jeopardize my credibility (further). I also wanted to see what people's reactions to HeH's claim would be while it was still fully in doubt (as, unfortunately, it is).

I don't know how to analyze any of this, and will gladly respond to further questions if they will help others analyze.

Another reason I followed Gorgon again is that the best experience I have with this game is the game I modded at the other site I play at (you know everything as it happens when you are modding, so it gives you pbp insight). In that game, 2 of the baddies opened the game with a love fest, but were soon openly accusing each other of being scum. Here, Gorgon opened the game blowing kisses to BM (as well as congratulating the scum on their doc kill, which is a huge scumtell); later, BM has pummelled the crap out of Gorgon.

From what I have metagamed of the original mod, he was an ambitious fellow, so I can totally see him setting this game up loaded with power roles, and trying to tweak it back and forth by also loading up the scum with tricks. Also, it took FOREVER for him to get approval to run this. So, a mafia roleblocker? I could see it. BM isn't going to like this, but I can still see him as the Godfather, although usually a Godfather has to be the killer and if he is roleblocked, the is no night kill.

That was the post where I seriously doubted your claim and I guessed the chances of us winning on Day 3 increased dramatically. Turns out I was basically right.

[distad]

Gorgon and I actually had a conversation about this. I couldn't understand why you were so certain that I was town and that Gorgon was scum. I figured that you were a cop and got innocent/guilty on the two of us. But I was also worried that you were a vig. I was assigning you more choices than you had been able to make at that point (3 with only 2 nights), but I was right in that you were 'multi-talented'.

For my own self-edification, how were you so sure that I was scum?

[distad]

EBWOP: That was regarding BM's post.

[Hang 'em High]

By the way, what exactly is the Mugger role. I think I understand but I'm not exactly sure. It's not listed in the Wiki.

[distad]

If he targets someone and that person dies, he gets to use the ability the next night.

That's why we had SP do all of the NKs.

[Raffles]

But... looking purely from logistic grounds, it's stupid. You lynched a (as good as) confirmed mason...

err hardly. how do you even come up with this stuff?

Chronx i knew BWing you was risky, but i was sanarthed (cant spell) by 2 other people. I didnt intend to hammer or whatever so early. Besides, it was hard to let your play go, when it was impossible to explain it as protown.

Player of the game should uncategorically go to SonicPulsar. All the scum did well in the end, but his play through the early parts of the game was astoundingly protown.

BM

All you needed to do was prod the other mason half to confirm it. CKD already said they know each other to be town. Two mutually esclusive conclusions arise from this.

1. They are telling the truth
2. They are both scum

If they are both telling the truth, then scums have a choice.
a) kill one of them so they won't be able to use their powers
b) leave them alive for WIFOM factor

a), whilst being beneficial for scum on the one hand, leaves a confirmed townie, which they have to kill off in another night.

b) Will eventually lead to one of them being lynched, but that still fully confirms the other mason, which they have to kill in another night. Or their innocence will be confirmed by cop.

Looking from this, it's obvious that a) is the route scum should take.


If they are both scum, then b) will eventually be reached anyway (if town had any sense) or they could be confirmed by cop. Another thing about this is it's a one-get-one-free deal.

By this logic you should leave a mason pair to be scummified by a cop or let the scums kill them.

[ChronX]

You aren't accounting for the fact that if you leave them to LyLo to lynch the first one as possible scum, the town loses if they AREN'T scum. On the day we lynched CKD, if we mislynched, we were (essentially) at LyLo the NEXT day. The town ABSOLUTELY did the right thing by lynching one the day we did. And as we know, the game DID have a godfather, so we couldnt cop clear one without both.

[distad]

We were absolutely going to leave them alive for as long as we could. We had no intentions of NKing them. We did not want to confirm ANYONE as town, and NKing one of them would have done precisely that. Additionally, NKing elsewhere increased our chances of hitting a 'useful' power role.

[Raffles]

Try having a cop confirmed mason. That's extremely powerful at the endgame. You wouldn't want those kind of thing alive if you were a scum. Godfather is a 50/50 chance if scum claimed the mason. You can't have two godfathers.

Besides, masons can be powerful. Confirmed masons aren't fully in the dark and have someone you can trust to not to backstab you.

[curiouskarmadog]

you know..we could always start this discussion in the mafia chat...I think Chronx is wrong, but am willingly to hear other's thought on this topic (for future reference). I feel like I had to do what was best for the town.

[Sonicpulsar]

I completely agree with Chronx. The town CANNOT go to Lylo with unconfirmed masons. They just can't take the risk that it was a scum ploy. ESPECIALLY if there's the risk of a godfather. If there's a chance at a GF, the town can't even trust cop investigation.

[curiouskarmadog]

no I dont think unconfirmed masons are good at LYLO either (which is partly why I thought BM scummy for wanting to wait till LYLO to hang us). But it wasnt like we came out days later either...we came forward Day 1....that would have been the ballsy scum ploy ever (note to self).

[Atticus]

I feel like a jackass (well deserved), I'm sorry.

[Gorgon]

I enjoyed playing with everyone, even Atticus ... although that may be because I was scum.

I'm glad BM found that my play improved as the game processed; I really did try to make more of an effort after he called me scummy. Btw, all my compliments of him were genuine; I'm not (yet anyway) devious enough to play with people like that as scum. I look forward to my next full game with BM, and hope we'll be on the same side in that one ...

Same goes to all the others; I would enjoy playing with all of you again (and am even in another pretty interesting game with ckd right now).

[Battle Mage]

Surprisingly, no. In fact if i was voting for the scummiest behaviour, i'd have kept my vote on you for the deadline. But, as it happened, i felt like not no-lynching, and so it was out of Gorgon and Chronx. I chose wrong.

BM, did me calling you out on my vote have anything to do with your subsequent vote Chronx? I was hoping to somewhat bully you in to taking your vote off of me in hopes you'd vote for Chronx. If you'd happened to jump on the Gorgon bandwagon, I was gonna have to figure out a way to get the attention away from him. In fact, I think Distad had the same idea. We needed the RBer too much.

As for my mugger role, it was damn near useless. The Doc protection on N1 was nice, but turned out not needed. Other that the Doc, the only useful ability I could have acquired was your JoAL stuff. But it was told that I had only one night to use my acquired abilites or they were lost.

Also, the fact I was a mugger and we had a RBer helped make me believe the Tracker claim since the same goon would be doing the NKs and another would be RBing every night.

@Distad- actually, it was only 1 night when i made those pbpa's (a sly attempt with the main purpose of breadcrumbing my result on Chronx). So i couldnt have investigated both of you. I can't actually remember why i felt you were scum, but i remember feeling very strongly about it. If i get time, i'll reread your early play and show you the inconsistencies i found.

@Raffles-i dont really understand what you are saying. But as far as your opinion on our play goes, i disagree. we did what had to be done.
I still don't understand how Chronx seemed to know there was a GF in the game. I mean, mathematically speaking, with 1 GF out of 3+ scumgroup, someone with a confirmed innocent investigation is going to be less likely to be scum than somebody who hasnt been investigated atall. We should have realised that with Chronx (which is as much my fault as it is anyone's)

still i'm pleased to see that my scumdar is working ok these days. lol

BM

[Raffles]

Well if you were going to lynch a mason, you could have at least chosen less helpful of the two... like Mr. PiGG.

[Gorgon]

Well if you were going to lynch a mason, you could have at least chosen less helpful of the two... like Mr. PiGG.

MR.PiGG was replaced; d3sisted played his role on Day 2.

[distad]

At that point, PiGG was replaced by d3sisted. Further, CKD is the one who "confirmed" with the mod that they both knew each other to be town. If it was a town/scum mason pair, it was reasonable that he was the scum part.

[Battle Mage]

Well if you were going to lynch a mason, you could have at least chosen less helpful of the two... like Mr. PiGG.

were you even playing this game?

[Raffles]

BM if you want to improve your posting, don't post content that makes others shirty with you.

I wasn't really reading after day 1. I do sort of have a better things to do with my life than reading up on the thread that I'm dead and can't post in. I know Pigg was replaced after day 1 by d3sisted, but still replacing in doesn't start you with a clean sheet.

[Battle Mage]

BM if you want to improve your posting, don't post content that makes others shirty with you.

I wasn't really reading after day 1. I do sort of have a better things to do with my life than reading up on the thread that I'm dead and can't post in. I know Pigg was replaced after day 1 by d3sisted, but still replacing in doesn't start you with a clean sheet.

in that case, it'd be awfully nice if you didn't post criticisms of our play which, had you been in the game for longer, you would realise are invalid. Yes, i can sometimes be a bit confrontational, but i HATE repeating stuff that to me, is obvious.

Sorry if i hurt your feelings.

BM

[Raffles]

This is why you get people being confrontational with you because to some others, what you think are obvious clearly aren't.

[distad]

BM, I like you. I like how you play. It's generally tough to fool you, because you examine almost every possible scenario.

However, we rolled you in this game. Because I knew that, I coached the other two to play off of it and encourage arguments with other players. We totally played off of your occasional hot-headedness to breeze to the win.

Again, I like how you play. But, you need to temper some of that and let things happen around you, whether you like them or not.

(I recommend red wine. It helps heal all that ails ya. Plus, it gets you drunk. )

[Hang 'em High]

I was thinking about this game over the weekend -- particularly the lynch choices.

Lynch 1: d3sisted. Day 1 is tough since there is so little to go on -- no voting patterns, etc. Plus for a successful lynch it takes 6 of the 8 townies to agree. So unless the scum slip up it's pretty hard to nail one with the first lynch. Looking back I still think we made the right call at the time, even though it didn't work out. It was close to deadline and d3sisted just disappeared from here when he was put under pressure even though he was posting in other games. It seemed to me he was using his upcoming vacation as an excuse to not post, hoping we would spare him from the lynch. That seemed scummy to me and made him the best candidate based on the little information we had.

Lynch 2: Curiouskarmadog. At first I believed his Mason claim because it seemed like a really reckless gambit to expose both himself and Mr.PiGG if they were scum. But then CKD starting playing kind of crazy, making some aggressive, over-the-top posts. It made me wonder if he was the sort of player to make such a reckless play. And then ChronX made his Tracker claim and described following someone to Battle Mage's house. Since this is exactly what I did, I believed ChronX's claim. Based on this it seemed clear there was a Cop (me), Doc (already killed), Role Blocker (since I had been RBed the first night) and a Tracker. At the time I thought they were all on the town side (obviously that was wrong) and didn't think we would also have 2 Masons on our side. Therefore, coupling this with CKD's reckless play led me to conclude the Mason claim was a lie. That's why I went along with the lynch. ChronX's false claim is what put me over the edge and I think it was a bad play for the town. I also think I put too much stock into the likely setup of the game, which led me to erroneous conclusions.

Lynch 3: ChronX. I didn't vote for him, although I did think there was a good chance he was the GFer. I wish I had done a more effective job of arguing for Gorgon's lynch. By this point I was convinced he was Scum -- and I was right. I just didn't pursuade the rest of the town effectively. I don't know if we would have won even if we had lynched Gorgon here, but we would have still had a chance. If we had lynched him I'm sure I would have been NKed, leaving Battle Mage, ChronX and Atticus versus distad and SonicPulsar. We'd still likely have lost, since I think ChronX would have been the most likely choice for lynching the next day.

For my first game I was pretty satisfied with the way I played, despite the outcome. We made a few mistakes and the Scum played a strong game. Congrats again to distad, SonicPulsar and Gorgon. It was a fun game and I hope to see everyone in future games.