Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[dybeck]

He's mafia/SK (I strongly suspect mafia), and if you're not going to lynch him, we may as well at least make sure that his kills are working for the good of the town.

After his judgment yesterday, I am not trusting him with making kills. It's pretty damn ironic that you are suspicious of him and think he is scum because he killed a very pro-town player, but now you WANT him to kill.

What an egregious bit of misrepresentation. I don't want him to kill. I want him to hang. I've been EXCEPTIONALLY clear about this from the moment he was outed.

All I was saying is that if you insist on leaving scum alive, we MUST take steps to limit the harm that it would do. If we have a killer under our control, we may as well use it. It would be almost like having a real vig.

[vollkan]

What an egregious bit of misrepresentation. I don't want him to kill. I want him to hang. I've been EXCEPTIONALLY clear about this from the moment he was outed.

All I was saying is that if you insist on leaving scum alive, we MUST take steps to limit the harm that it would do. If we have a killer under our control, we may as well use it. It would be almost like having a real vig.

Yes, I knew what you meant. I don't think he should kill even if he is the vig.

[AlyG]

Dybeck, you're starting to make some very good points there. I wonder why you weren't playing as well earlier.

I'm still waiting for some elias input and i'm keeping up with the game. I also am suspicious of Oman's Vote hopping and bandwagonning. His votehopping has been very frequent during the course of this day and he always seems to be following up other peoples suspicions as a bandwagoner. usually with Vollkan.

[dybeck]

Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "No way!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's looking scummy to me."
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "I think we should kill Dybeck"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "C'mon! We have to lynch Dybeck!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's right... Originality's claim is bogus... I wonder why he wasn't playing well earlier."
Dybeck:

[AlyG]

Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "No way!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's looking scummy to me."
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "I think we should kill Dybeck"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "C'mon! We have to lynch Dybeck!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's right... Originality's claim is bogus... I wonder why he wasn't playing well earlier."
Dybeck:

Dybeck, you forgot that not all your posts revolved around that. Most of them were using stupid logic and most of your plays were scummy. The resaon that you've been playing better is because you have been backing up your opinions with much better points than earlier.

[dybeck]

I'm glad you feel there's some variety in my play, because it just feels like I haven't posted anything other than "Originality is scum because his claim is implausible and no pro-town vig would have targeted carrotcake" since you busted him.

Obviously something in the way I phrased it the seventh or eighth time struck a chord with someone

[AlyG]

I know that the base of your post revolved around orig's claim but there were more context then just 'Orig's claim is bogus' in them. Some of which was very noteworthy. Anyway, might as well put this in but my main suspects are still Dybeck (Not as much though but like i've said past actions can't be ignored) and Originality. And i've already said this but i need some Elias input!

[vollkan]

I still field my question, though: If Orig is a SK, why would he make the one claim which is almost guaranteed to have him NKed? That's the thing which I believe is still being missed here. I mean, even if weak doc or watcher or something is less likely, vig is suicide.

I don't think this has been rebutted anywhere and it is the strongest reason I see for him being a vig or mafia. Dybeck, you described the vig claim as "desperate" but I fail to see why it makes sense for SK-Orig to claim vig. Yes, other claims are less probable, but they are far more likely to result in his survival.

That said,

And lets not forget that if I were mafia I'd have no way of knowing if the other NKer was a SK or vig, so claiming vig would also be a dice roll if anyone counterclaimed.

This makes me think he is unlikely to be mafia and, so, I am left thinking he is pro-town vig.

[vollkan]

There is more I want to say. These are some thoughts of mine. I don't know whether or not I believe them myself, but I want to post them to see what people think:

If Orig is the SK, then Dybeck's latest actions in no way make him pro-town, for the simple reason that he may very well be mafia trying to get rid of Orig; same goes for anyone on Orig's wagon. This goes for anyone, but I just don't think we should be pegging Dybeck as a townie purely because he is hunting a SK.

Secondly, I don't know whether we should be demanding that Orig does not NK. By telling him not to kill, we nullify the threat he presents to the mafia. I think it might be better if we allow Orig to kill, but request that he take much more thought.

Thirdly, the matter of lynching Orig. If Orig is lynched, we can be certain that AlyG will be NKed. AlyG's power is very useful.

Whilst the mafia have no way of knowing whether Orig is pro-town vig or SK, I think they may be able to make a good guess based on whether they have 2 or 3 members.

[Gemelli]

Thinking out loud here ... bear with me if I ramble.

This makes me think he is unlikely to be mafia and, so, I am left thinking he is pro-town vig.

I am still having a hard time reconciling that N1 CarrotCake kill choice with a pro-town alignment. The stated reasons for doing so don't hold up to the facts -- CarrotCake was NOT the quietest player in the game, and killing someone based on a "vibe" -- one which runs counter to nearly all of the discussion in the game to date -- is not really a pro-town play.

One scenario that I think should be considered was that orig targetted CC as a mafia or (less likely) SK, and then simply made a rushed decision on how to respond once AlyG revealed the targetting. In other words, let's not assume that players in the game always make the perfect decisions.

I agree that there would be plenty of reasons NOT to claim vig as an SK, somewhat less so as a mafioso. But assuming that he had decided not to call BS on AlyG's tracker claim, for whatever reason, he would be looking at making a claim which supports these facts: (1) he had indeed targetted that player, and (2) that player subsequently died. The first pro-town role supporting those facts which comes to my n00b mind, anyway, is Vig. Cop and Watcher leave you vulnerable to Occam's Razor ("yes, I targetted this player, but since I'm pro-town then obviously someone else did too").

If Orig is the SK, then Dybeck's latest actions in no way make him pro-town

Granted; we shouldn't be making assumptions on any alignments aside from our own. However, I would describe Dybeck's posts and actions as "townish."

I'll start by positing that Dybeck is not the SK. The SK would IMHO be happy to ride ANYONE's bandwagon, mafia or town alike. Dybeck has been steadfast in focusing on originality while other bandwagons have come and gone. So I'd be more likely to suspect Oman (for example) as the SK, based on play patterns to date.

It's a bit harder to make the case that Dybeck is not Mafia. All I'm going on there, really, is that his reasons for suspecting Originality closely match my own. Well, that and those posts I listed earlier where he argued against bandwagons for confirmed town roles. With my suspicions leaning heavily towards Originality as Mafia, it's hard for me to imagine Dybeck being in cahoots with him. So I suspect that Dybeck is either pro-town, or in a Mafia faction that competes with Originality's.

As far as there being no pro-town reason to get rid of Orig ... I'm not sure I agree there. He targetted a scumhunter, and the scumhunter died. While I agree that leaving him alive one more night will potentially give us more information about his alignment, it's worth noting that he may also target an active scumhunter, regardless of what direction we give him. Sure, that's a 1:1 trade mathematically (assuming we then lynched him the next day), but if the Mafia lose a highly-suspected target, and we lose our most active scumhunter, the town still comes out on the short end of the stick.

Generally, I'm confused about all the talk of "counterclaims." Isn't it possible for a game setup to have (for example) more than one Cop, or even Vig? I don't understand the logic of "you can't be a Cop, because I am the Cop."

Originality: quick question for you. If we asked you to target Oman tonight, would you do it? Why, or why not?

[shaft.ed]

Dybeck: "Shaft.ed is the SK"
Town: "What are you talking about"
Dybeck: "Shaft.ed is the SK"
Town: "Are you on crack?"
Dybeck: "Shaft.ed is the SK"
Town: "No Way"
Dybeck: "Let's kill originality"
Originality: "I'm the vig don't kill me"
Dybeck: "OK well your claim is bogus"

Town: "No way!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's looking scummy to me."
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "I think we should kill Dybeck"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "C'mon! We have to lynch Dybeck!"
Dybeck: "Originality's claim is bogus"
Town: "Dybeck's right... Originality's claim is bogus... I wonder why he wasn't playing well earlier."
Dybeck:

There fixed that for you

[shaft.ed]

If Orig is the SK, then Dybeck's latest actions in no way make him pro-town, for the simple reason that he may very well be mafia trying to get rid of Orig; same goes for anyone on Orig's wagon. This goes for anyone, but I just don't think we should be pegging Dybeck as a townie purely because he is hunting a SK.

Absolutely, the scum want the SK dead just as much as the vig. They are of equal threat to mafia.

Secondly, I don't know whether we should be demanding that Orig does not NK. By telling him not to kill, we nullify the threat he presents to the mafia. I think it might be better if we allow Orig to kill, but request that he take much more thought.

If originality is the vig I do not want him to NK. I don't care, it's terrible situation by the numbers and killing Carrotcake is no testemant to his thought process. Moreover, allowing him to kill gives us no idea whether or not he's vig or SK. If he kills non-scum and survives the night via some mafia mind games he will be auto-lynched tommorow and my vote will be very happily on the wagon.

Thirdly, the matter of lynching Orig. If Orig is lynched, we can be certain that AlyG will be NKed. AlyG's power is very useful.

Pointed this out numerous times.

Whilst the mafia have no way of knowing whether Orig is pro-town vig or SK, I think they may be able to make a good guess based on whether they have 2 or 3 members.

Very true. This would mean that if a SK exists and they have only two members he'd be a greater threat than a vig with 3. Don't know how that helps us gain insight however.

[shaft.ed]

Dybeck has been steadfast in focusing on originality

while other bandwagons have come and gone

. So I'd be more likely to suspect Oman (for example) as the SK, based on play patterns to date.

OK I agree with the Oman point. But what other wagon has there been for Dybeck to get on today? There haven't been other bandwagons today except for his own and he's not going to vote for himself. And the other originality wagon occured before dybeck replaced into the game. Let's not foget that dybeck had no suspicion of originality yesterday.

2)a) the entire bandwagon on Originality looks like it's based on a dumb thing he said on like Page 1 and his failure to defend himself adequately since then. It has all the hallmarks of a newbie error than a scum slip, and my gut says he's not scum. That's it.

So the entire argument is based on the AlyG situation, and yes this is strong evidence, but I think dybeck is looking at it very superficially.

Generally, I'm confused about all the talk of "counterclaims." Isn't it possible for a game setup to have (for example) more than one Cop, or even Vig? I don't understand the logic of "you can't be a Cop, because I am the Cop."

In a normal mini there's definitely not enough room for multiple cops unless the mod put in some with different sanities, multiple vig's would also cause way too much death and destruction at night. So having the same role would be quite rare in a normal mini.

[Gemelli]

OK I agree with the Oman point. But what other wagon has there been for Dybeck to get on today?

No *major* bandwagons, true. But there was some action vs AlyG early on in Day 2 (vollkan, oman x3) and dybeck kept his focus.

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed, originality: Who would be your top 2 choices for lynching tonight, and why?

Right now I don't think I have only 2 to pick from. Honestly the majority of the players in this game are coming off scummy but I'll do a short run-down of my impressions listed in a relative order from town to scum:

AlyG: If not for originality supporting AlyG's claim, I'd be screaming for his lynch. AlyG was amongst the top of the heap yesterday for scumminess and started out today on a bad note. His claim on originality reeked of scum, but when originality fessed up to killing Carrotcake I knew he had to be a Tracker. Still holding a spot in the back of my mind for a scum aligned tracker but since this is not likely I've got to believe AlyG as town.

vollkan: Sub'd in for a player that had no content yesterday so he gets a clean slate today. Most of his posts are logical and have the town in mind. However, I'm getting some very subtle scumtells from him, but I don't what to point them out right now because I'd rather him not be able to correct them. If I had to bet on a townie right now it'd be vollkan.

Lucienne: Came off fairly townish yesterday, but hasn't contributed much of anything earth-shattering. Also on the same track today and has become even less frequent in posting due to RL issues. Certainly comes off as someone that is flying off the radar. I get a mild town vibe but very hard to read.

Elias: Biggest lurker of the game adding no content to today's activities. He posted infrequently yesterday as well, but made one or two obviously town moves. I'd mark him as unreadable.

Gemelli: You replaced in for a crazy guy. His play was decidely confusing and possibly scummy but a few of us that have meta'd/played with Dr. BS kind of understood what he may have been up to. So far you're too new for me to get a read. But given that you were starting from a negative I'd lean you on the anti-town side.

dybeck: He rubbed me the wrong way yesterday with his agressiveness, but upon doing a re-read I didn't notice anything overtly scummy. So coming into today I had him in the overly agressive possibly pro-town column. He starts off today calling for my lynch based on one single tell. Then he completely ignores the scumminess of AlyG's tracker claim and calls for originality's head without orig even getting a post in. And subsequently argued "orig killed carrotcake, carrotcake was

VERY

protown, and orig was

totally scum

yesterday so he must be scum." In reality he didn't find orig scummy yesterday and I find it hard to believe carrotcake was the most pro-town player in the game (post on that later). While doing this, I feel he is completely ignoring the ramifications of an orig lynch (ie the NK of AlyG, sending us into LyLo if he is town). Just now after pages of being asked to provide reasoning behind his argument he is starting to look townish. I've got him as scummy and am almost comfortable with a dybeck lynch today.

originality: Played quite poorly yesterday. Gave off a few scumtells, but many of these could be seen as newbtells and was dogged by many people over posts he made in the random voting phase. Starts off today by being outed as a town killer by AlyG. But I believe the claim was probably the worst move for either scum or SK so I'm inclined to let him live. I also think that lynching orig sets up the scum to take out AlyG this evening as it's very likely if orig is SK he will be the target of the mafia (same goes for vig). I doubt he is mafia based on the fact that he a) didn't try to rebut AlyG and turn the claim around and b) didn't claim cop to out the town cop. And I don't think he's SK because he claimed vig which is basically a death sentence in the night. Basically I don't think the town can reliably pin down originality and being a confirmed killing role he is a definite threat to scum which I'd rather them have to deal with so AlyG gets another night of investigation without worry.

Oman: Started off the game with a very odd maneuver using tiny white text. This got him off on the wrong foot with me. Did some meta'ing and felt this was pretty normal for his playstyle. He set fine with me most of yesterday. While he did get a bit overzealous with ryan yesterday, I pretty much agreed with the reasoning behind the bandwagon that ryan should be pressured for trying to bully dybeck. Since ryan turned out to be an ass, we really got nothing from that bandwagon. Today Oman has been all over the place. Basically any time someone makes a point or places a vote Oman swings his position and says "yeah yeah that's the ticket

vote whoever was just mentioned

." This is reallyl making me uneasy with him and as of now I'd be most comfortable with an Oman lynch.

[shaft.ed]

OK I agree with the Oman point. But what other wagon has there been for Dybeck to get on today?

No *major* bandwagons, true. But there was some action vs AlyG early on in Day 2 (vollkan, oman x3) and dybeck kept his focus.

Actually at that time he was trying to get me lynched but that went nowhere.

[Gemelli]

Oops, point taken. My notes were incomplete; I logged votes and HoS's from day 2, but very little else.

[shaft.ed]

The Life and Times of Carrotcake the Most Pro-Town Players Ever

Carrotcake's time with us was cut tragically short by the hands for originality. Now we are left to ponder whether originality commited this act as one of malice or one of caution. Let us examine here the incredible contributions carrotcake made to our town during her time here.

Carrotcake was not at all an active poster. She made a total of

9 posts

on a day that contained 333 that's right she contributed to 2.7% of the dialogue. Now let's look at those posts chronologically:

First post:

Vote: originality

Random voting phase. Nothing of significance.

Second post:

its just the first day, its not like we need a very good reason to vote on anyone.

Voting - sure, but

lynching

without a good reason is asking for trouble

iunless you expect to catch scum on the very first lynch, chances are we are going to get a townie. might as well make the best of it by lynching the ones that are not contributing.

Of course we expect to hang scum! There is a chance that we would lynch a power role too, as we don't know the set-up.

or maybe you are just ignoring all logic to save your scumbuddies?

Lucienne, is in very little danger as of now. He has no posts, and its too early to call him a lurker. His fellow scum would not get rattled (if he is indeed scum). Spurg, and Aly are the ones taking the time to be logical here. You are being too pushy.

Aly might be too forward by voting for you, but you seem like a person with a lot to say. Adding pressure to you might be nice for the town.

Pointing out politely that originality is wrong in supporting the lynching of lurkers and that games here are slower so someone is not considered a lurker until they haven't posted for a number of days.

Third Post:

Whatever [/ quote]

Whatever [/ quote]

Whatever [/ quote]
Remove all the spaces inside the braces, and just play around with it. Don't forget the quotation marks. I see people double post all the time, so it isn't a bad thing as far as I know.

Teaching AlyG how to use quote tags. Very pro-town activity here.

Fourth Post:

I have to go away for a few days. I might still be able to post, but I cant guarantee that I can scan through posts like normal.

Not going be here for a few days. Not much to add.

Fifth Post:

- I thought everyone vanilla claims by default at the start of the game, so Blackstrike's claim is meaningless. The scum might think that he is lying and aim for him anyways, or they might think that he is drawing attention for a NK and vote for someone else. Its a WIFOM, that does not help the scum at all. His next posts were a bit confusing though.



--- for the vamp and oman thing

When I say defending himself with an attack I mean as his defense, he attacks.

Drawing attention from yourself is indeed scummy. But to me, it just seems like he is attacking. Being aggressive is actually a favorable trait for a townie, as it makes things happen. And allows the town to create an informed decision.

-

Did anyone actually see what the size one writing said? Anyway that seemed scummy for me

I might be misunderstanding you, but do you mean you have not even read the small white text?

Start's by saying she doesn't find Dr. BS claiming vanilla scummy.
Then she defends Oman from VampanezeHunter's ludicrous argument and points out VH was a moron.

Sixth Post:

On AlyG --- after a short read of posts

- Very aggressive against originality, he attacks "lets lynch the lurkers" over a series of posts. AlyG then attacks originality after listening to general reasoning, and changing his mind. Not really scummy, but it seems to be bloodthirsty. This worries me as it seems like bullying an easy target. Getting an easy lynch.


- "And originality, if you don't come up with a good defence i'll be voting for you which means you'll already at 4 votes. Not good. " - AlyG
"you shouldn't be so eager to put votes on people. He was already on 3 votes and getting to 4 on the 2nd page is going a bit to far. " -AlyG to Oman
You yourself threatened to cast the fourth vote, but you attack Oman for doing it instead of you. You seem to care too much about the placement of your own votes, as if you are avoiding something.
- Voted for vamp, on the grounds of lurking.
- "Guys please don't lynch Vampeneze hunter until he's given an explanation." Even while you still have a vote on him. Afraid to look wishy washy if you keep voting unvoting? Or would you like to use this as water to wash your hands clean if he did come up as town?
- " And Dr. Blackstrike who's role claiming is really destroying our chances of winning. " Is really destroying seems to be an exaggeration. Invoking hate against Blackstrike.


- You do not switch your votes around. You already know about being wishy washy, so you might be working to avoid vote switching. You do however call out plenty of suspects while seemingly relying on what other people to dig deeper. Planning to cause confusion? You do explain your reasons, but it hardly feels like your own.

- Hey wait a moment, I think im seeing the same post twice , oh well I have written quite a bit already so I might as well just post it

Vote: AlyG

for spreading confusion and hate

I have to intense studying to in to, this is my last long post for a while (even if the quality is quite low). I can still post small snippets though!

This is really her only contribution to the game. Points out that AlyG is acting scummy in many ways some new some repeats of other's points but amassed in one compendium. Then says she won't be posting much.

Seventh Post:

I don't like the idea of lynching a claimed( semi-claimed?)power role today. Very little harm could come from letting him live another night. If he does turn out to be town, we get one night of benefits. There isn't exactly a shortage of suspects anyways. Lets just hang him tomorrow.

Defends Dr. BS stating that lynching claimed powerroles is bad. Then ends by saying let's just kill him tommorow a bit scummy there.

Eight Post:

Well Carrotcake said the exact same thing a page ago! Yet you don't seem to be attacking her. Either you overlooked it or you two could be a possible scum partnership.

That still does not answer why you did it. Are you saying that you simply echo my posts?

I love the way you try to shift blame around. I am scummy for something that YOU did ? And the person who attacked you for it is scummy too. Madness!

Lets just hang him tomorrow.

I said that to somewhat satisfy the bloodlust against the doctor. I did not place a death date, as I am aware that through a night action he might have a chance to prove himself. The tone of that when I imagined it is probably much different than what you are thinking about right now. My apologies for not making it clear.

Ends up defending the fact that she said Let's just hang him tommorow. Gee imagine that.

Ninth Post:

When was the last time we had a prod?
Could we please have prods if it has been a while. It seems vamp isn't posting on another game too, so he might have just walked out and quit. It would be great if we could get a replacement fast.
I don't believe in Lynch all Liars, as a guiltless lynch cant be good for the town. Originality might have just made a misinterpretation.

Asks for a prod after having only contributed 8 posts to the game. Doesn't realize vamp has already been replaced. Then says we shouldn't lynch liars.

This ends the words of carrotcake. While I don't find Carrotcake very scummy, how can anyone argue that she was

decidedly

pro-town? I seriously have more trouble wrapping my head around a vig wanting to kill at all than a vig wanting to kill Carrotcake.

[Gemelli]

The Life and Times of Carrotcake the Most Pro-Town Players Ever

Cute But I haven't been trying to suggest that Carrotcake was all that and a bag of chips. What I've been trying to suggest is that to me, CC makes NO sense as a kill target for a pro-town player.

Scroll back through day 1. How many posts even mention CarrotCake? Oman and Lucienne both made suspicious comments in passing, but unless my notes are lacking again, she was never seriously discussed as a scum threat. No votes, no FoS's, nothing. Not even a peep from originality about her through the entire day.

Compare that to Dr. BS (cough), a player whose behavior was erratic, who had admitted lying, and who had been the subject of at least one lynch bandwagon on Day 1. At the end of the day, who looked scummier, me or CC? If you had been the vig, who would you have targetted (after the obvious answer of "no one")? And how far down the priority list would you have put CC?

[Gemelli]

(And of course, I hit the button before I finish )

Basically, the simplest explanation I can come up with for originality to leave a very suspicious player (me) alive, and to take out an inactive player (CC), points towards him being Mafia. The Mafia have a vested interest in keeping suspicious-looking innocent players in the game as long as possible. Inactive players seem to be more common Mafia targets from the (admittedly few) games I've read all the way through on this site.

Other thoughts?

[shaft.ed]

Gemelli, while I agree with you that Dr. BS was crazy suspicious, he was also crazy and a claimed powerrole. I definitely wouldn't have killed a claimed powerrole N1 with his meta-history especially.

Obviously from my earlier comments I would not have vig'd anyone after yesterday's debacle. But if I

had

to kill it would have been either originality or AlyG. Carrotcake would have likely been in the middle of my priority list as she was lurking too much to read as town or mafia. But you can clearly read originality's sentiments on lurkers being a safer kill because if they do come up town at least you've taken out a town member that wasn't contributing. This opinion was very clear and led to most of the confrontations in the early game. To the contrary of what many have stated, Carrotcake only had one single post in which she was actively scum-hunting yesterday. I fail to see how she was an asset to the town outside of being one more warm body the mafia has to kill in order to win. Thus I can see some reason for originality to have chosen Carrotcake. While I totally do not find it wise, I do not see it as overtly scummy compared to any other players that were available.

[Gemelli]

Good post, shaft.ed. Lots to chew on there.

Working with the assumed principle that originality thinks that lurkers are good vig targets ... OK. I can still see Elias or Lucienne giving CC a run for her money in that department, but you've demonstrated that CC wasn't an active player.

But again, suppose you were a vig and trying to make a good decision on behalf of the town. Wouldn't you want to make a few posts about a player you were suspicious of? If nothing else, I'd want to be sure that my target got a chance to defend him/herself, and to hear other people's opinions as to whether this person was a good target. The fact that CC got targetted out of the blue, with zero discussion of her as a suspect ahead of time, is what looks fishy to me.

I guess at this point, my best-case scenario would be if Originality agrees to target Oman tonight, or some other target we think is highly suspicious. I agree with the idea of not lynching Orig tonight, but only if he agrees to let a consensus direct his action.

[originality]

Yea, as if I'd kill a possible powerrole during the night. Too risky and he didn't come off as "SCUM" to me, just really weird.

Vollkan, it seems as if every other post you make has ok logic, the others being completely crazy. But its OK because you usually fix that later.

Oman is nuts. I know its meta, but he tried to fake dayvig kill me to see how I'd react on another game. Again, his little text thing was weird and useless, but how is it scummy in any way? Just stupid imo. His biggest issue is riding bandwaggons, but he's not the only one.

And thanks for that shaft.ed, I've been meaning to do some CC quoting. Now dybeck, tell me how the hell is he the super pro-town man? He didn't do anything. The only person he had a case against is now known town. And how in the world is posting helpful forum code hints a pro-town thing? Scum could easily do that, and in fact I'd think they would, to appear like such a helpful angel.

And dybeck's case is still rotten, though I feel the noose loosened a bit with your elaborate explanation. Lets start your scum history from the beginning: Claiming shaft.ed is SK and being oh so damn sure about it. I know there is no SK, and the first thing a mafia would do is try to get the town to believe there is indeed a SK, so the vig possibility loses credibility.

[Gemelli]

Originality: quick question for you. If we asked you to target Oman tonight, would you do it? Why, or why not?

[shaft.ed]

1)

But again, suppose you were a vig and trying to make a good decision on behalf of the town. Wouldn't you want to make a few posts about a player you were suspicious of? If nothing else, I'd want to be sure that my target got a chance to defend him/herself, and to hear other people's opinions as to whether this person was a good target. The fact that CC got targetted out of the blue, with zero discussion of her as a suspect ahead of time, is what looks fishy to me.

2)

I guess at this point, my best-case scenario would be if Originality agrees to target Oman tonight, or some other target we think is highly suspicious. I agree with the idea of not lynching Orig tonight, but only if he agrees to let a consensus direct his action.

1)

While the day shortening due to ryan made it unreasonable for a vig to act (which is why I think vig kill was a bad idea), it also excluded a lot of the things you're talking about. There really would not have been much time to set someone up like that when the day just up and ends all of the sudden. The decision would likely have been made after the modkill as a result.

2)

I don't agree with the targeting idea. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, I find it much more likely orig-scum would be SK than mafia due to his claiming actions. Therefore, directing a SK to kill someone really has no meaning as their goal is to kill

anybody

on a given night. I agree we should direct his actions, but that they should be directed towards no kill. That way if he is lying and doesn't want to be outed he at least has to make a pro-town sacrifice for the night.