Open 45 - Baby Too Much Scum - Game Over! before 506


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:46 am

Post by theopor_COD »

Votecount . .

Edion0 (2) - Bird1111, mneme
Curiouskarmadog (1) - Jennar
Jennar (1) - Curiouskarmadog

Not voting - Edion0, Joost, Flyinghawk, ckillor

ckillor has been prodded
Last edited by theopor_COD on Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:51 am

Post by Jennar »

joost wrote:Well your head bumping is pretty interesting. I do however have a question for Jennar:

Where exactly did you say or imply that you thought Flyinghawk was scummy? I've reread your posts and I can't detect where this was implied. In fact it seems like you said Flyinghawk wasn't scummy because he gave a reason for his vote. And does that mean you think CKD and Flyinghawk are scumbuddies?
Jennar wrote:
CKD wrote: I removed my vote and placed a vote on mneme to get conversation started (and because I felt her play was strange) Also I note that you have not said anything about flyinghawk, who placed a second vote on mneme. That didn’t look scummy or eager for a quick lynch?…interesting.
It does but your attitude is more suspicious. Here you are trying to divert attention away from you. If you are town you need to put down the shovel as you look more and more like scum each passing second. Why are you so defensive?
First line Joost.

FLyinghawks actions do look slightly scummy but not so much as CKD. I am not willing to rule anyone out of being scum at this point as no one has made case for me to believe otherwise.

I dislike labeling the 'scumbuddy' ideal as it implies that they are openly working together in the forum. One has to assume that Mafia members would put a fair amount of distance from one another to keep from being labeled this way. So I will not pair anyone up like that. It could be that Flyinghawk is just buying into CKD's point of view. without a night it is what the mafia has to do to win.

-J
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:52 am

Post by Jennar »

joost wrote:Are you going to answer my question at all, Jennar?
I was typing it when you posted. A little patience please.

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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:29 am

Post by ckillor »

hey i'm here. been busy with alot of other games and real life. sorry 'bout that.
i will post something of more substance later, im a bit busy still right now
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 am

Post by ckillor »

ok, so after re reading the last couple pages here are my top scum list

jennar-because he wont answer some of CKD's questions which seems odd,and keeps mis quoting him it seems.

CuriousKarmaDog- seems like there are some inconsistancies in his reasoning, and he is pushing extremely hard on jennar to be lynched, which seems suspicious. it hard to find his reasons in his posts.

more coming later.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:39 pm

Post by curiouskarmadog »

bold is me.
Jennar wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote: (laughing). Oh, the “why are you so defensive” maneuver. I call you out for your hypocritical vote, I aggressively attack the obvious flaws in your case, and ask you questions…then you label that has “defensive”. I think you have mistaken offensive as defensive.
And yet you still fail to address the main points of my comments. You fail to point out anything having to do with you trying to redirect to flyinghawk. In fact you deliberately avoid the comment.

I didnt avoid any comment, I was simply pointing out that it appears you are buddying up with flyinghawk. In my view (and I am sure other's) flyhawk's actions (which I will get to later) were very scummy, yet
you
seemed to overlook this. I dont know how to state this any other way.

curiouskarmadog wrote:
this looks like a lame excuse "to place a vote for no damn reason"...are you still in the random stage? or was this a serious vote?
Hey look comments out of context. Lets look at what Mneme said.

Jesus, this is why I think you are simply not understanding my posts. I dont know if it is deliberate or not. This was not out of context. Please go back and reread my post, I posted my reason for the vote on mneme besides flyinghawk's reason to prove a point (a comparsion). You say I am scummy because I didnt provide much reason for my (page 5) vote, however, you seem to over look the fact that neither did flyinghawk. You seem to be defending flyhawk's post by saying he provided more logic and content...but he actually did not...THAT was my point you seem to be missing...repeatedly.


Mneme wrote: joost: Play your own game.

Personally? I'm happy to punish people who treat the random stage as a joke.

unvote
vote: bird1111

Unvoting your random just because the game seems to be stalling seems to be some wierd mutation of "unvote for no damn reason".

Morover, the entire attidude -- that there's some hard and fast stage between "random" and "exiting the random stage" when random votes are discounted is both artificial and seems to miss the point of random voting in the first place.
Now you voted for him because you felt it was a lame excuse but then go to ask him if he is still in the random stage or if it is a serious vote. He gave reasoning for his vote against Bird and you wonder if he is just random voting? You are fishing for excuses to go after people. You have now jumped to me because I presented myself as a target.

interesting, how exactly did you present yourself as a "target"..usually people who are "targets" have done something scummy, yet you say you havent done anything, I am confused. I have already explained, that there was little reason (I felt the play was strange) behind the vote..it was called pressure...I was called starting conversation..Mneme had one vote on her and you declare that I want to lynch her...can you see how you might be over reacting? Also you avoided another question, you yourself thought mneme was acting scummy, how come it is ok for you to say she is acting scummy, but not for me?..please answer the question this time.
flyinghawk’s reason:
Flyinghawk wrote: Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post? This seems very very odd to me.

Vote:Mneme
He provided more logic? How?
He gave reasoning for his vote. From what I see he finds the reasoning behind Mneme's vote to be odd.

YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS...I HAVE STATED SEVERAL TIMES THAT I FELT MNEME'S PLAY WAS STRANGE, how was this different?


See this is providing logic as to why he felt it was odd. You don't even go that far. In your typical fashion for the last few pages you don't actually answer points made against you but instead just redirect and sk more questions.

I have answered every "question" you have asked, you have not.


And your stated reason for leaving your random vote on me was “backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture.”
Jennar wrote:You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J
Again more logic? Does anyone else see what I am seeing here?
You thing I have a logical fallacy? You are a walking talking debate fallacy. First non-sequitor arguments against Mneme and not Begging the question arguments against me.

I actually have no clue what you said here, can someone translate?


You didn’t call me out on anything, there was little reason for my vote…we were at page 5, there is little reason for every vote on the board. I find you scummy, because you are trying to push a crap logic case and you are having problems admitting when you are wrong.
I stated the point of weakeness in your logic then and now and all you can do is fire back with rhetoric on how far into the game we are. You now find me scummy because I came at you for it. And I now see more then ever that my vote should sit right where it is. You are by far acting more scummy then anyone here.

What? I was explaining why there was little reason to the vote. BECAUSE IT WAS PAGE 5. I dont understand why you dont understand this. Go back to page 5, and see if anyone had ANY strong reasons for a vote. please quote it for me.


SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.
You asked questions of Mneme that could be answered if you actually read the post. And as I stated before no one was following the votes on your previous target. you went after someone new to try shift attention to them. And it worked with flyinghawk doing the same. You are very gun-ho for a lynch.

My previous target? You are insane. My previous target was a random vote to get conversation started. You are again misrepresenting me. Do you even know who my "previous target" was? This is why I do not think you are even reading this game. because if you were, you would not make ridiculous statements likes this. Every point you have is either crap logic, hypocritical, and just plain wrong. I encourage everyone to check out my "previous target" ON PAGE 1. Joost, post 15 (for your reference).


This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?
He if you actually read my post instead of just picking out the parts you like then you might have actually caught the answer to this. I do feel flyinghawk was scummy but not as scummy covered as you.

This is a straight out lie. AGAIN, for those reading, this is a lie. the post before my post(80) was post 77, no where in that post does she say Flyhawk is scummy. This is a backtrack upon a lie. PLEASE show me in post 77 where you said anything close to "flyinghawk is scummy"? You actually do the opposite..you defend him. You say his vote made since and he was logical. Again lies and misrepresenting...


And hey where are your thoughts on flyinghawk, mneme and Edion? You bob and weave through everything without actually bringing anything new to the table which is a flat out scum tell.-Jennar
I dont lke flyinghawk's play. He seems to be mirroring everyone's vote and reasoning...and the fact you are lying for him, backtracking in regards to him, and defending him makes me feel he could be your scum buddy..

so
FoS flyinghawk
, for your mirror votes, but mostly due to assocaition

I dont have much read from anyone else. Since the random vote stage ending the only real conversation has been between you and I.

But I would love everyone to jump in
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:29 pm

Post by Flyinghawk »

curiouskarmadog wrote:I dont lke flyinghawk's play. He seems to be mirroring everyone's vote and reasoning...and the fact you are lying for him, backtracking in regards to him, and defending him makes me feel he could be your scum buddy..

so
FoS flyinghawk
, for your mirror votes, but mostly due to assocaition

I dont have much read from anyone else. Since the random vote stage ending the only real conversation has been between you and I.

But I would love everyone to jump in
I don't quite understand where you are coming from, saying I mirror votes. My first vote was a random vote, mirroring no one. I unvoted that random vote pretty early on, earlier than most other people undid their random votes, which isn't mirroring either. I voted Mneme for a scumtell that i now realize was probably worth a FOS instead of a vote. When I realized his action wasn't really all that scummy, I unvoted.

I realize that the reasoning for my vote on Mneme came up in conversation a fair bit, but thats hardly enough for me to be accused of mirroring, At least I think.


If i'm missing something drastic that i've done that is the reason why you feel this way about me, please tell me.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:24 pm

Post by Jennar »

curiouskarmadog wrote::snip:

At this point I don't see the point in us continuing this. You state that I don't read your posts. I don't think you bother to try and understand mine.

I think you are scum. You think I am scum. Everyone gets it.

Would love to hear from others on our debate or anything on others that they would like to discuss.

-J
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:33 pm

Post by joost »

I'm not going to mingle in this debate and getting accused of not reading post. I guess technically Jennar did say Flyinghawk was scummy with his "it does" but really I read over his posts twice and I missed it twice. He did more defending of Flyinghawk than accusing him of being scum.

I do find CKD's accusations of Flyinghawk to be a bit shakey. I'm wondering if maybe he's confusing FH and Bird11111, both being birds and all.

My conclusion from this argument is that I don't think Jennar and CKD are both scum and I'm actually leaning towards the possibility that neither is. If one or both of them were twisting each others words it's probably because they wanted to win the argument and not to hide their own scumminess.

My prime suspect at the moment is Edion for his bandwagon vote.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:46 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Ok, I see where "it does" could be applied to me asking her if flyinghawk was acting scummy. It was hard to see it with all the defending going on. I still don’t like the her accusation that I changed votes because no one was buying my “target” before that. Actually I have a problem with many of her points, but I think it all really boils down to fact that I feel she is repeatedly pushing a weak/fraudulent, which makes me wonder her motivation. I am willingly to put the conversation/argument aside for now, so that others, can comment. There is more than just 3-4 people in this game, lets get some content from them. It sounds like we both agree on this at least.

Flyinghawk I felt like you were mirroring my votes or buddying up with me. Post 64, I vote mneme, your very next post (vote) 72, you vote mneme. Post 76, I vote jennar, your very next post (vote) 93, you vote jennar. Really this is a stretch, I am not trying to push it. I just thought it was strange. Mostly the FoS was indirectly due to Jennar’s (who I find scummy) association to you, by defending you with what I perceive as untruths. Like I said, I am not actively pushing this, it is only a FoS.

I’m suspicious of anyone at this point who votes without providing some sort of explanation or reason. I think edion did, in his 81 post. However, with the reasons he provided, I think a FoS was more warranted (in this situtation, past the random stage) but that is just me. He did unvote, which shows a willingness to admit he might have been too hasty.

I want to hear other’s thoughts, we are at page 5 now, there has to be a least 2 pages on content here (mostly Jennar and I) that is worth commenting on.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:50 am

Post by joost »

Er... CuriousKarmaDog, who is "she"? Jennar's a he....
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:51 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

ok I see "jen" I think she..he, got it
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:08 am

Post by bird1111 »

He did it first. Following can be a scumtell, but so is doing something scummy first
(actually, he didn't do it first, but I'd already let similar sentiment pass on previous pages, since I didn't notice and was talking about other stuff; only really noticed that on a re-read too).
Fair enough.
i guess i'll just sit here and watch for a few more days until i see something truly scummy to come by and hope not to get labeled as wagoning when i put my vote on, since agreeing with someone is now a dead-giveaway that you're scum.
How is taking the wait and see approach helpful to town at all?
I do find CKD's accusations of Flyinghawk to be a bit shakey. I'm wondering if maybe he's confusing FH and Bird11111, both being birds and all.
How do CKD's arguments against Flyinghawk apply to me?
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:09 am

Post by bird1111 »

ckd, Jennar, do either of you have any finnished mafia games on here? I'd like to see those so I can compare your play this game to play in other games when I get around to looking thourghly at your argument.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:37 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

bird1111 wrote:ckd, Jennar, do either of you have any finnished mafia games on here? I'd like to see those so I can compare your play this game to play in other games when I get around to looking thourghly at your argument.
well, I am in a ton of games right now (metagaming will help you find those)..

there are several games that I have been lynched or Nked in but they are not completed (one of those, you know) but I was town in them all, sorry. If you metagame you can find out which ones. (can I list current games that I am out of?)

there is only two games I have completed thus far, a newbie game and a SK countdown game.

newbie, I was a repalcement for scum (however, Day 1 I thought I was town and found out night 1 after getting a pm from scum that I was actually scum VOICE OF MOD: )..that game might be good to look at to see if there is any difference between my scum play and town play...

the SK countdown, I was town Daykilled by the SK day 2...

I can provide links if you need them, check out my profile to get the game names and numbers.

hope that helps.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:44 am

Post by bird1111 »

A link to the newbie game would help me a lot.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:59 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

this was my first game on this site.

Newbie 390

I think I did that correctly..if you read the last pages it does sum up some of the confusion (a lot of mod error)...I didnt know I was scum until Day 2.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:54 am

Post by joost »

Bird11!1 wrote:How do CKD's arguments against Flyinghawk apply to me?
They don't really, but I did a quick reread and it seemed to me that if you combine your actions with Flyinghawk's it might be possible to see systematic bandwagoning. Either player seperate don't seem scummy to me. It was just a suggestion, nothing more.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:27 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

for the sake of conversation while we await bird's reread of my game (and I assume some metagaming on Jennar too??) edion, any comment on the game thus far?
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:47 pm

Post by ckillor »

i have a quick question for CKD, so what is your top reason for suspecting Jennar?
Actually I have a problem with many of her points, but I think it all really boils down to fact that I feel she is repeatedly pushing a weak/fraudulent, which makes me wonder her motivation.

well, actually while reviewing the thread to write this post. i can really see what you mean.
and it's a little confusing how he said he was writing an answer to your question and then never posted it.

UHG. just looked above that post and saw it was the answer, so now my reasons/questiosn are gone.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:23 pm

Post by Jennar »

bird1111 wrote:A link to the newbie game would help me a lot.
I don't have a game here for you to read sorry. The other forum that I play on deletes the threads as the games end to stop things like this.

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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:48 pm

Post by Flyinghawk »

joost wrote:
Bird11!1 wrote:How do CKD's arguments against Flyinghawk apply to me?
They don't really, but I did a quick reread and it seemed to me that if you combine your actions with Flyinghawk's it might be possible to see systematic bandwagoning. Either player seperate don't seem scummy to me. It was just a suggestion, nothing more.
At this point cumulatively, we have had remarks that CKD and Bird 1111 and I are all copying each others votes. I think we have to realize that at this point, it ACTUALLY doesn't look like any of us copy each other intentionally(at least I have not meant to, and from Bird1111's reaction, neither did he) And that this way of thinking (the mafia's buddy will copying the other mafia's vote) is a really shaky way of looking for a scumtell, barring somethign really obvious.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:16 am

Post by bird1111 »

First off, metagame analysis on ckd.

His play so far in the two games seems to be similar. He is argumenitive and defensive in all three. However, since ckd was under a lot more pressure in his newbie game than in Open Countdown, going further than that is difficult.

The main thing I notice when comparing this game to the others is that he seems to be trying harder to keep himself alive than he did in Newbie 390, but this is not signifigant enough to gain anymore info than hinting very slightly towards him being town.

I am about halfway through an analysis of the ckd and Jennar argument. Will post that and replies to anything else later today.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:22 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

I pretty much argue in every game I am in...it gets the town talking, that might be why I have never survived to see endgame as town, but it gives the town something to reread later while searching for scum, so I feel like I am doing my part, dead or alive...I would like to point out that since Jennar and I have halted our discussion...this game slowed.

edion, any comment to my question?
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:46 am

Post by Jennar »

If you need to read up on me check Basically Communist Mafia as I just got day lynched there in an attempt to get some activity going (I was town).

-J
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