Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote count

YagamiLight - 4 (Setael, Jordan, Nelly, Shanba)

Elias - 1 (Gorckat)
Gorckat - 1 (Ckd)

9 alive, 5 to lynch!

DEADLINE:

September 27th, 19:00 Eastern Time.

[Setael]

I think if Yagami was Town he would be fighting harder to not get lynched, rather than sitting silent at -1 and waiting for someone to hammer.

[curiouskarmadog]

I think if Yagami was Town he would be fighting harder to not get lynched, rather than sitting silent at -1 and waiting for someone to hammer.

ok, lets see what happens...he is on my scum dar (above hermit and gorckat)..the fact that neither has voted for him makes me wonder..

I will hammer..

unvote, vote Yagami

[Albert B. Rampage]

"Yagami, you were the last one in the bathroom yesterday!"

"No! It was still bright outside when I went so I didn't flip the switch!"

"You sure took a while to get out of there, too", said Nelly.

Yagami was surrounded by everyone living in the house.

"You can't do this!!!"

Shanba stepped up, and Yagami attempted to escape. Setael tripped him and Ckd jumped on him with a well placed stomp on the neck, breaking it immediately. After a search of his person, a note was found in his shoe:

"We're not gonna make it boss.."

Yagami, mafia, has been lynched day 2!

It is currently night 3 and you have 48 hours to talk/send in your night action!

[Albert B. Rampage]

While everyone was sleeping in the same room this time, Jordan and Setael were selected to patrol the ground level for any disturbances. At about 2:30 AM, on his way to the kitchen, Jordan recognized a survivor enveloping Setael's head with a blue plastic bag, trying to choke her. As he ran like leopard to the woman's rescue, he was met with a flying knife stuck in his face. Jordan, vanilla townie, was knifed night 2! The murderer feared he made too much noise so he escaped, but Setael was left unconscious and never caught a glimpse of who the assassin was. Or at least, that's the story she tells you when she wakes you up at 3:15AM.

Now, you look around and you see the faces that have lived with you for three days and three nights. Who do you trust ?

With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Deadline: October 1st, 20:00 Eastern Time.

This game has to be moving at a much faster rate now, because my departure from mafiascum is imminent. Remember, the faster you end the day, the more time you will have the following day. Prods will be going out every 32 hours. At deadline it will take half the votes to lynch, and if the game isn't finished by the time I am gone, mafia wins. No pressure guys. POST!

[Nelly632]

In a previous post I stated that I believed SPAG & Hermit to be scum & at this point we have lynched SPAG & he turned out to be scum. So on this note with the game being rushed at a fast pace I am going to go with my previous thoughts & vote for who I suspected before...

Vote: Hermit

[JordanA24]

Bah! Go town!

[curiouskarmadog]

In a previous post I stated that I believed SPAG & Hermit to be scum & at this point we have lynched SPAG & he turned out to be scum. So on this note with the game being rushed at a fast pace I am going to go with my previous thoughts & vote for who I suspected before...

Vote: Hermit

Doing some rereading, Gorckat is pretty high on my list, just above hermit now....going to back to reread a bit and adjust my scum ratings to reflect Day 2.

[Setael]

I did a re-read in light of the fact that SPAG came up scum.

Post 99 – Hermit would’ve been more careful than that if he was scum
Post 102 – Oman wouldn’t say that if Hermit was scum
Post 128, 132 – Elias scummy; 216, 220 – Elias Townish

Nelly wagon - gorckat, nelly632, Elias the thief, Oman, Paradoxombie

*likely 2 scum on it – Oman and either Elias or gorckat

223, 231, 232, 236, 293, 302, 303, 308 – Elias scummy
225 – hermit townish
236, 242, 256, 289, 436 – gorckat townish

*These last 2 posts could either be gorckat pointing out a scumtell elias made, or gorckatscum taking advantage of the heat vollkan is putting on elias at this point and trying to get a wagon going

244 – gorckat scummy

I still think Oman’s list is key.

Yes, it screws you

[Elias]

if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive. Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it. There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it. The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I very much agree with this entire post, and if it is true then Elias is scum.

Oman brings Pulse into it (I never mentioned Pulse, nor did anyone else) and says Pulse looks more pro-town than Elias (implying strongly that he favoured Pulse's vigging). It would be very odd for Oman to do this if both Pulse and Elias are pro-town or if Pulse is scum and Elias is torn. This only makes sense if Oman is trying to protect Elias.

Again, I have no idea why he would say that. All I know is that I am town and he was scum. I dont know what else to say about this particular piece of evidence.

I think he knew there was no way to explain his way out of that. Sounds like scum trying to get the subject dropped. I really don't think oman would've given 3 Townie names on his list. I think he gave 2 town names (me and Para) and one scum - Elias, last on the list. If Elias is scum, it definitely makes sense that he'd much rather have seen Pulse (now me) vigged than Elias.

Well great. Nelly is now voting for me. If you guys do decide to lynch me, tell me before hammering so that I may claim and give my final suspicions, and a final defense.

**Elias says this with only 2 votes. Seems extreme.

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

One scum is down - he's not going to want to bus. Makes sense if Elias is scum for him to not draw any attention to SPAG.

Elias was very active Day 1, posting a lot when suspected – if he had continued it could be seen as townie, but he’s so much more quiet when not under the microscope that it looks scummy. I think townies would remain consistently active and helpful (or unhelpful) but not be such opposite extremes as Elias has been.

Also, after vollkan day-vigged Oman, Elias had downplayed how much he had pushed that vollkan might be scum – para calls him on it in post 308.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say here, is will you people lay off me? I've been responding to your attacks all day, I'm probably the second biggest poster and contributor to the town, and I've posted my thoughts on every single player, something no one else has done. I assure you that if you lynch me I will turn up protown.

*sounds like scum trying to wriggle out of the spotlight

Then in Post 427 when Para made something which seemed to be a pretty obvious scum tell, Elias' only response on it was "I dont think its too strong a tell." This is much more likely to be said by scum who knows Para is Town rather than by Town who is unsure.

Gorckat’s post 608 re: Elias makes perfect sense.

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami. I think he was hoping to distract from the Yagami wagon and push attention back to Hermit. Elias has mentioned several times how good he is as scum and his perfect record. If he is scum, it's going to be tough to pin him down and I could be wrong, but I really think Elias is the other scum.

vote: Elias

[JordanA24]

Btw mod, the OP should say I was killed Night 2, not Night 3.

I'll be quiet now.

Ah yeah...that's true. -Mod

[TheHermit]

Two scum down. That last one's gotta be shaking in his boots. That also means he's probably going to play very conservatively now, to avoid making an accidental slip-up.

Now things are going to get tricky.

Elias is still my front-runner for suspicion, mostly for the reasons that Setael went into concerning vollkan's dissection of Oman's list. His Nelly vote may have a townie explanation, but it's hard to defend against what seems to be scum sticking their neck out on his behalf. Yet, I'm not entirely convinced and won't vote unless I or someone else can bring some better evidence to the table.

A couple posts by gorckat seemed odd, if I recall correctly. Nothing that jumped out at me as a strong tell, though. Another reread seems to be in order.

Nelly is someone I'm going to need to take a closer look at as long as I'm rereading. Why? Because I showed suspicion for him at the end of Day 1 and I haven't gotten around to pursuing that angle yet. He hasn't been the most prolific poster, but I think I should be able to get a good handle on him with two days of posts to sift through.

I'll let you know what I find.

[Elias_the_thief]

223, 231, 232, 236, 293, 302, 303, 308 – Elias scummy

I would appreciate if you actually like, you know, quoted these and explained why you think theyre scummy. I cant defend myself if you dont explain why I'm scummy.

I still think Oman’s list is key.

Yes, it screws you

[Elias]

if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive. Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it. There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it. The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I very much agree with this entire post, and if it is true then Elias is scum.

Alright. Youre claiming that Oman has no advantage from doing this. Dont you see this is completely wifom? If everyone thinks that, thinks im scum because of it, and mislynches me, theres his advantage right there. I mean, I could easily combat what youre saying with "itd be dumb for scum to put his buddy last, because it would get his buddy lynched" but cant you see how thats equally wifom? The whole fucking list is wifom.

Oman brings Pulse into it (I never mentioned Pulse, nor did anyone else) and says Pulse looks more pro-town than Elias (implying strongly that he favoured Pulse's vigging). It would be very odd for Oman to do this if both Pulse and Elias are pro-town or if Pulse is scum and Elias is torn. This only makes sense if Oman is trying to protect Elias.

Again, wifom.

Again, I have no idea why he would say that. All I know is that I am town and he was scum. I dont know what else to say about this particular piece of evidence.

I think he knew there was no way to explain his way out of that. Sounds like scum trying to get the subject dropped. I really don't think oman would've given 3 Townie names on his list. I think he gave 2 town names (me and Para) and one scum - Elias, last on the list. If Elias is scum, it definitely makes sense that he'd much rather have seen Pulse (now me) vigged than Elias.

I really,

really

,

really

hate arguments like this. Let me ask you this; does a townie like being lynched? No, they dont. So, wouldnt you get the exact same argument out of a townie defending himself if he faces something he cant explain? I mean, I didnt make the list. I cant explain as town or scum. This argument doesnt make me any alignment at all, so stop pretending that what you think it sounds like is automatically what it actually is.

Well great. Nelly is now voting for me. If you guys do decide to lynch me, tell me before hammering so that I may claim and give my final suspicions, and a final defense.

**Elias says this with only 2 votes. Seems extreme.

Various people were agreeing with Vollkan, and Vollkan was still making massive post attacks on me. Not extreme at all. You get Vollkan on your ass when youre town and we'll see how you respond.

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

One scum is down - he's not going to want to bus. Makes sense if Elias is scum for him to not draw any attention to SPAG.

I wasnt really focused on the people that I didnt think were scum when I made that post, ie, I didnt really reread him. Nothing stuck out to me as scummy

that i remembered

. You have to remember that during this time I was dividing my time between my massive post argument with vollkan, rereading, scumhunting, and posting my thoughts on who I thought was scum. I didnt have time to reread every player, just the ones I remembered as scummy. I dont think this is much of a tell.

Elias was very active Day 1, posting a lot when suspected – if he had continued it could be seen as townie, but he’s so much more quiet when not under the microscope that it looks scummy. I think townies would remain consistently active and helpful (or unhelpful) but not be such opposite extremes as Elias has been.

ahem? I was very active in attacking hermit day 2, and then attacking para later on. Also, posts I have made: 108. Posts Set has made: 17. posts hermit has made: 37. posts gork has made: 65. posts nelly has made: 33. I dont care that youre a replacement, shut the fuck up because I've been one of the most active players all game.

Also, after vollkan day-vigged Oman, Elias had downplayed how much he had pushed that vollkan might be scum – para calls him on it in post 308.

How is pushing this a scumtell? No one has explained it to me yet.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say here, is will you people lay off me? I've been responding to your attacks all day, I'm probably the second biggest poster and contributor to the town, and I've posted my thoughts on every single player, something no one else has done. I assure you that if you lynch me I will turn up protown.

*sounds like scum trying to wriggle out of the spotlight

If you were town in my situation, wouldnt you be just as likely to be trying to wriggle out of the spotlight as I am? I am town. My death constitutes a near LYLO situation tomorrow. I have been in the spotlight all game, and the fact that I keep responding to everyones BS arguments is the reason I'm alive.

Then in Post 427 when Para made something which seemed to be a pretty obvious scum tell, Elias' only response on it was "I dont think its too strong a tell." This is much more likely to be said by scum who knows Para is Town rather than by Town who is unsure.

So, now I'm scum because of a playstyle difference? I didnt believe that what he did was a scumtell. Also, if you remember, para was a fucking townie. Why in hell would I downplay tells against a townie when he was already the leading lynch candidate if I was scum?

Gorckat’s post 608 re: Elias makes perfect sense.

Huh?

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami.

Because no one ever really represented the case besides saying "OMG HES LURKING OMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" as far as I saw.

I think he was hoping to distract from the Yagami wagon and push attention back to Hermit.

Think is the key word here. This doesnt make any sense because I tried to steer the Para (proven townie) wagon to Hermit too. All this shows is that I genuinely think that Hermit is scum.

Elias has mentioned several times how good he is as scum and his perfect record.

I've also mentioned how I'm very bad at town and thus its easy for me to get caught in binds a lot. I also like to defend myself, its really the reason I play this game. So how do you know whether this is a case of me being bad town, or good scum? Thats right; you dont.

Anyways, Imma post tomorrow probably with my suspicions.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias is still my front-runner for suspicion, mostly for the reasons that Setael went into concerning vollkan's dissection of Oman's list. His Nelly vote may have a townie explanation, but it's hard to defend against what seems to be scum sticking their neck out on his behalf.

So most of your suspicions on me are based on an interpretation of an entirely wifom issue? honestly, its like, the definition of wifom. its like this:
"he obviously would put one scum on, cuz whats his advantage otherwise?"
"ah, but what if he knows that we'd think that, and do it so as to set up a lynch of 3 innocents?"
"ah, but he would know that we would know that he would actually have an advantage from putting three innocents on a list"
and so on and so forth. This argument is so BS its not even funny.

[Setael]

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami.

Because no one ever really represented the case besides saying "OMG HES LURKING OMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" as far as I saw.

So... did you miss THIS post?

At 8:39 am:
SPAG wrote:
I would like to hear from PX himself before i place a vote.


Less than an hour later, WITHOUT waiting for Para to say anything, SPAG hammers.

Why didn't you wait to hear from him? There was plenty of time until deadline. Under the circumstances, any Townie would’ve waited to hear from Para. Let me guess… you’re going to say it was because I suspected you for removing your vote. Unfortunately for you, everyone here recognized that as perfectly reasonable suspicion. Vollkan agreed that it was a good strategy to wait to see what those who'd removed their votes would do, and you now know that he was a mason.

The ONLY thing that changed between your expression of desire to wait for Para and your hammer was that Vollkan said he thought you had shown a reasonable level of caution. As such, you hammered safe in the knowledge that Vollkan (a confirmed mason) believed you had shown reasonable caution to that point; coupled with Vollkan's apparent belief that the time was ripe for a lynch.

Let me stress this: You hammered despite declaring that you wouldn't when the only thing that had changed was that Vollkan had posted so as to potentially redeem you. This utterly reeks of someone who pre-empts that they are lynching a townie since it gives you an easy way out.

I think you knew Para would come up town because you’re mafia, so you removed your vote knowing he was going to die with or without your help. Then, when I pointed out that it looked fishy, you jumped on it saying I was pushing you into voting for him. That coupled with vollkan telling you it wouldn’t look suspicious, made you feel safe hammering Para, knowing that you could throw the blame on me when he came up Town. In fact, you said as much:
Quote:
However, if he turned out town it will particularly show out Setael, who seemed to push me and gorckat into voting for him on suspision that we were protecting a fellow scumbuddy, and those two votes would secure his lynch. Also vollkan and CKD have been dominant in wanting to lynch him.


This sounds an awful lot like someone who knows Para is going to come up Town, and is setting up his arguments for the next day.

vote: SPAG

Why did you never address that post or refer to it at all? Did you just decide to ignore it? Or did you think it was a bad case? Can you show me where you ever acknowledged this post? It seems to me that you totally avoided addressing SPAG's scummy play, and even now you're downplaying the case on him. I think you were hoping you could get the vote moved off of SPAG and onto Hermit so you tried to trivialize the SPAG case and didn't bother to address it. I can't see any reason for you to have disregarded how scummy SPAG had been if you were Town. The only way it makes sense is if you are SPAG's scumbuddy.

By the way, calm down and watch your language. This is, after all, still just a game.

[gorckat]

My death constitutes a near LYLO situation tomorrow.

We have 4 Townies, 2 Masons, 1 Scum left. Worst Case scenario, we have 4 good guys and 1 scum tomorrow. Then the town can still lynch wrong and go into a 2-1 endgame.

Hardly a 'near LYLO situation'.

[Shanba]

I still reckon Elias is town, and am firmly opposed to his lynch today. I need to finish my analyses, as I'm not really sure who might be his partner. Will re-read his posts.

[Setael]

This is an open setup. There are 3x mafia, 3x masons that win with the town, and 1x day-vig that can be a mafia, mason or townie.

There's only one mafia left, Shanba.

[curiouskarmadog]

I still reckon Elias is town, and am firmly opposed to his lynch today. I need to finish my analyses, as I'm not really sure who might be his partner. Will re-read his posts.

if you think Elias is town, why does he need a partner?

whose partner are you talking about..


still in the reread.

[Elias_the_thief]

So... did you miss THIS post?

At 8:39 am:
SPAG wrote:
I would like to hear from PX himself before i place a vote.


Less than an hour later, WITHOUT waiting for Para to say anything, SPAG hammers.

Why didn't you wait to hear from him? There was plenty of time until deadline. Under the circumstances, any Townie would’ve waited to hear from Para. Let me guess… you’re going to say it was because I suspected you for removing your vote. Unfortunately for you, everyone here recognized that as perfectly reasonable suspicion. Vollkan agreed that it was a good strategy to wait to see what those who'd removed their votes would do, and you now know that he was a mason.

The ONLY thing that changed between your expression of desire to wait for Para and your hammer was that Vollkan said he thought you had shown a reasonable level of caution. As such, you hammered safe in the knowledge that Vollkan (a confirmed mason) believed you had shown reasonable caution to that point; coupled with Vollkan's apparent belief that the time was ripe for a lynch.

Let me stress this: You hammered despite declaring that you wouldn't when the only thing that had changed was that Vollkan had posted so as to potentially redeem you. This utterly reeks of someone who pre-empts that they are lynching a townie since it gives you an easy way out.

I think you knew Para would come up town because you’re mafia, so you removed your vote knowing he was going to die with or without your help. Then, when I pointed out that it looked fishy, you jumped on it saying I was pushing you into voting for him. That coupled with vollkan telling you it wouldn’t look suspicious, made you feel safe hammering Para, knowing that you could throw the blame on me when he came up Town. In fact, you said as much:
Quote:
However, if he turned out town it will particularly show out Setael, who seemed to push me and gorckat into voting for him on suspision that we were protecting a fellow scumbuddy, and those two votes would secure his lynch. Also vollkan and CKD have been dominant in wanting to lynch him.


This sounds an awful lot like someone who knows Para is going to come up Town, and is setting up his arguments for the next day.

vote: SPAG

yes, actually.

Why did you never address that post or refer to it at all?

I never saw it.

Did you just decide to ignore it? Or did you think it was a bad case? Can you show me where you ever acknowledged this post?

No. I never saw it. Trust me, I wouldnt lie about this. The fact that I missed it makes me look worse. I would never have said so blatantly that I didnt think there was a case at all if I had seen that.

It seems to me that you totally avoided addressing SPAG's scummy play, and even now you're downplaying the case on him.

This isnt true. The hammer looked bad, but to me it looked like an isolated incident, and i didnt think it was immediately indicative of him being scum. Bad town players have done it in the past.

I think you were hoping you could get the vote moved off of SPAG and onto Hermit so you tried to trivialize the SPAG case and didn't bother to address it.

Havent I gone over how much I LOVE opinion as fact? Geez. It doesnt matter what you "think" i was doing. Its not true, so stop trying to present it as a reasonable or even useful part of a case. I mean, how do i defend against that? say "nuh uh"? thats why opinions of players motives should not be in cases. 1) its opinion. 2) its completely wifom.

I can't see any reason for you to have disregarded how scummy SPAG had been if you were Town. The only way it makes sense is if you are SPAG's scumbuddy.

How bout I've been under pressure the entire game? All i saw as scummy was the hammer, which is in my opinion, not enough to lynch. also, the second sentence is another one of those AWESOME opinion as fact things.

By the way, calm down and watch your language. This is, after all, still just a game.

By the way; This is a game

that id like to win.

If swearing is the only way that you guys are gonna listen to what I have to say and not make a mistake by lynching me, then godammit, im gonna swear, and I dont care whether you like it or not.

So in conclusion, yes, I missed that post. Although from what I can tell, all it was doing was saying "SPAG hammered early" over and over again, with various opinion-as-facts thrown in. I already was aware of SPAGs hammer. The evidence against Hermit was (and still is) greater then there was against SPAG. In my opinion, we caught scum out of luck on his lynch, not skill.

By the way, now that I successfully shot down your entire case, are you going to unvote me? or are you just going to pretend I didnt refute your entire argument in my previous post?

Also, gorc:
tomorrow = 4 town 1 scum. mislynch turns it to 2 town 1 scum day after.
so the day after tomorrow will be LYLO if its two mislynches. Thats as close as you can get to your death causing LYLO the very next day. So how would my mislynch not cause a near LYLO situation?
Further, do you have anything else to add? I mean, come the hell on. There is tons to discuss, but the most you can come up with is to attack my interpretation of what near lylo is? that comment is so irrelevant its not even funny. even if you could prove that I was wrong in what i said, is that a scumtell? hell no. Please try harder next time.

Also, I will apologize if im pissed off in my posts, but im not going to stop swearing. EVERY FUCKIN DAY starts out with me being pressured from all sides as the lead candidate. And EVERY FUCKIN DAY I get out of it by pointing out that all your arguments are BS. Honestly, I'm tired of it at this point (this from a guy who usually likes defending himself). So dont blame me for being a tad pissed off. If you were in my situation ( a protown player nearly lynched 3 times and constantly under pressure), you might be a little pissed off too.

[Setael]

So in conclusion, yes, I missed that post. Although from what I can tell, all it was doing was saying "SPAG hammered early" over and over again, with various opinion-as-facts thrown in. I already was aware of SPAGs hammer. The evidence against Hermit was (and still is) greater then there was against SPAG. In my opinion, we caught scum out of luck on his lynch, not skill.

So you say you missed that post, but you continue to downplay the case on him. Basically you're implying that had you seen that post, it would not have changed your opinion and you still would've thought SPAG was Town. If you're that bad at scum hunting, why should anyone listen to your arguments about Hermit? You refuse to admit, even now that SPAG came up scum, that we had a good case on him. I don't believe that you were ignorant of the SPAG case. I believe you tried to downplay it just like you're doing now. Yes, that's my opinion. I know it drives you crazy when we state our opinions, but a lot of the "evidence" we have in this game is our personal reaction to what others say and how they react.

And EVERY *** DAY I get out of it by pointing out that all your arguments are BS.

I disagree. This is what you want people to believe, but what actually seems to happen is every day you get out of it by providing a well-constructed defense. This does not mean you are Town, or that you have proved that the arguments brought against you are BS. All it means is you are good at defending yourself, whether you are scum or Town.

In fact, remember those posts that I listed that you asked me to quote? They were other people's suspicions of you that I found convincing, and that you never adequately refuted. I'm sure you felt that you shot them down and they should never be brought up again, but that doesn't mean your defense was convincing to a third party. I'll list them here for you. As far as I'm concerned, every one of these cases against you still stand.

Furthermore, Oman APPROVED of my "plan" to vig pulse and then to lynch Para (the latter of which he may well have thought avoidable). The other important detail to this plan, which I have not revealed until now, is the person who was NOT mentioned: You, Elias.

We know that Oman was scum. We can see Oman trying to protect you. At that point, Oman was NOT under threat. Hence, he had no reason to assume his role would be revealed.

By jumping on Hermit, i would have done nothing. There would essentially be no pressure on him, and if you [Nelly] turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully.

Sorry if I'm requoting the exact same thing from earlier (I think its just an excerpt of the earlier quote- its been on the clipboard awhile before I finally sat down to break it down)

If Nelly came up scum and you were seen voting Hermit, you'd be looked at as distracting the Nelly wagon. That's what I saw as being afraid of distancing, although distracting is the word you used.

The basic point I tried to make is the same- if you are acting in a manner you believe pro-town, why are you afraid of being called anti-town? By saying a townie should avoid scum tells, you imply they should the do so even if they are convinced that the wrong wagon is being pushed, if making their vote is a scum tell (a distraction).

Oman voted a random vote in the beginning for OJ (Paradox) then changed it to Ninja and then once again changed it back to OJ (Pardox)... He placed a 4th vote on Paradox and then jumped at your suggestion that we lynch Paradox and VIG Pulse... So now with us knowing that Oman was Scum it wouldnt make sense for him to be so careless with Paradoxombie if they were scum buddies... So I have to believe that both Paradoxombie and Pulse are both Townie. At this point the list of people who voted for me are...

Gorckat
Oman
Paradoxombie
Elias
Nelly632

Lets see... Nelly632 is Town... Oman is dead and proven Scum... So odds are we might be able to find a scum bag on my bandwagon...

Paradoxombie was voted and never defended by Oman and since Oman is scum we assume Paradoxombie is NOT...

Gorckat & Elias...

Gorckat jumps on me before a wagon even exsist and has legitament comments and questions...

Elias votes for me after I have TWO saying he is placing pressure on me and avoiding being looked at as scum...,

My biggest problem with Elias(and I'll admit it's not huge) is that he made such a big deal about the possibility of Volkan being scum and I believe he was first to do it followed by Hermit.
1) You may be giving ideas to scum. Hermit basically laid out the entire plan for the scum when I see no need to, atm. Especially in a game with several fairly new players, it's possible scum would completely miss the opporunity presented in not NKing Volkan.
2) You make it more obvious to scum that we aren't sure that volkan is town. Although volkan IS slightly leading the town, there's no reason to point out the possibility of scumminess unless he survives tonight. Even if scum thought of not NKing Volkan, if we made it look as though the entire town trusts completely that he is town, then he might as well be confirmed; he is also a very proficient scumhunter, imo. Basically, by showing that we don't trust him or at least make it look so, it tells the scum that such a tactic is more likely to suceed.
3) Scum might also fear that even if they let volkan live, the town will ignore the possibility that he is scum, so they put the idea out there now.

In conclusion the most protown and intelligent action would've been to silently consider the possibility of Volkan being scum to yourself, and only bring it up if Volkan or anyone else actually tried to utilize Volkans semi-confirmed townie status to get a lynch on someone else or if Volkan did somthing fairly suspicious. While ckd DID call Volkan confirmed townie, he didn't use it for any purpose such as to get a lynch or protect Volkan, therefore I see it as unreasonable to point out his still-possible-scum status because it benefits scum overall for the reason above.

Town more likely to be careful about what they “give away” to scum. If Elias is scum, he has no need to worry about

Your defense to this was particularly unconvincing, when in the next post you deflected attention and pushed all blame onto Hermit, while attacking Para for FOSing you.

I need to reread before I say anything, but I'm suspicious of Hermit[.....] and Vollkan, since I'm town, the fact that Oman indicated me last on his list seems to be too convenient to be a coincidence. I seriously think that Oman and Vollkan (mafia aligned dayvig) had this worked out as a planned gambit.

Para - This is actually the post that made me make a mental note and suspect you over it, I simply forgot it when I was laying everything out. In the part I italicized you suggest that Oman mentioned you as a way to get you lynched. Well this admits that you think Oman mentioning you is damning evidence, SO damning that he must've been out to get you. This is BS, Oman was confused and acting slightly sycophantic to volkan. He could've just been making up suspicions and prefferences. Maybe he actually realized his own suspect status(it's not that hard to see that volkan was out to get him) and want you to get mislynched later.

But you go as far as to use Volkan's unconfirmed-ness as a defense. It's stupid. You think Oman's preference of you is so significant that you now suspect Volkan. Volkan has done nothing seriously suspect! There's no reason to "seriously think" that the whole thing was a plan to get you.

I'll tell you what it looks like to me, it looks like you've gone from denial to playing on everybody's suspicions, redirecting them at Volkan. It's weak, it's contrived, and it's scummy

I'm sure there is a reason you have a perfect scum record. Clearly when you are scum, you don't tend to make obvious mistakes or many scumtells and it's hard to find obvious cases where we can be sure you bussed or buddied up. The best we would have to go on is sloppy play by your scum buddies (such as Oman's list). You are going to be able to refute anything we say, but you would be able to do so just as well if not better if you were mafia.

If anyone here is going to be able to win this game as scum when the odds are clearly against them, it's probably Elias. Whether he is scum or Town, he'll have a convincing defense to anything brought against him.

By the way; This is a game

that id like to win

. If swearing is the only way that you guys are gonna listen to what I have to say and not make a mistake by lynching me, then ***, im gonna swear, and I dont care whether you like it or not.

IN MY OPINION (take it or leave it but it's what I think) this statement just sounds like someone afraid to ruin his perfect scum record.

[TheHermit]

To make sure all the relevant evidence is here, I'll do a post-by-post on gorckat. I'll follow up on one for Elias, followed by one for Nelly. My comments are

underlined

.

34: Mirrors vollkan's thoughts on oj's strange vote and DFN's heated language.

45: In response to DFN claiming that any defense he makes will only prompt more questions, wonders whether asking DFN questions is really such a bad thing.

82: Points out that a third vote with six to lynch isn't scummy, and that his real suspicion was a lack of content on oj's vote. Again agrees with vollkan that DFN's actions could be scummy, or they could be newbie.

83: Points out that Oman was questioning his use of dramatic words to describe DFN's actions, even though Oman was doing much the same thing.

86: Explains that he's leaning slightly toward scum for DFN. Refers SPAG to Nelly's quicklynch comment, to explain why Oman thought Nelly was scum.

106: Understands my reasoning for voting oj, but remarks that it won't make a replacement any faster. Votes Nelly for unvoting DFN at vollkan's request without adding content and because Nelly's quicklynch comment is very similar to Hermit's.

I don't think content was necessary, considering all Nelly did was remove a random vote. Now, the case could be made that it was left on for too long, but that's not the case gorckat made. He may be onto something with the quicklynch comment, though. I'll take a better look at it when I scrutinize Nelly.

108: Doesn't see where vollkan used rudeness in his questioning of DFN.

121: Pokes pulse. Waits for Nelly to respond to his comments.

126: Votes for Nelly (although he never unvoted from 106) in response to his self-vote.

Pay attention to the context here; gorckat has asked Nelly to respond to his suspicions about making quicklynch comments and unvoting without providing content. In response, Nelly votes himself. Town!gorckat might have read this as "I have no defense and am giving up". Of course, it's just as likely that Scum!gorckat saw a quicklynch in the making.

181: Explains that his second "vote" was to make sure he spelled Nelly's name correctly, since he was in another game that strongly enforced this rule, and also because he saw Nelly's actions as avoiding the questions.

183: As an afterthought, unvotes.

187: Claims that Nelly is contradicting himself by saying the scum would react more calmly to his gambit than townies, then saying ckd is town because he questioned him instead of voting. Says that vollkan surviving the night does not automatically make him scum, following it up with accusing vollkan of delaying the kill so that it will look better for him if Oman turns up town.

194: Expresses mild shock that a scum dropped on day 1.

197: Feels that one of para's comments sounds like "Crap, we're caught." Votes para.

199: Remarks that Oman was pushing hard for Para to go down, and unvotes. Says that he considers his lynch vote between Para and Elias.

213: Asks ckd why scum would kill vollkan.

215: Re-asks ckd, and also asks Nelly why he thinks doctor protection is forthcoming for vollkan.

217: Remarks that Elias' record as scum does not prevent him from making a mistake in this game. Asks Elias why he is afraid of placing a "distancing" vote on Hermit.

227: Concedes that he may be misinterpreting Elias. As an aside, says that the mafia has too much WIFOM at its disposal in this game.

236: Claims he is suspicious of Elias because he thinks Elias' strategy of not making a "distracting" vote means he would make a play he did not agree with to avoid being seen as scummy.

I'll go into this in more detail when I dissect Elias' posts, but to make it short after this game I am convinced that being mindful of avoiding scum moves is NOT a scumtell.

256: Again asks Nelly why he said ckd is town. Feels that Elias' defense is not enough in the face of vollkan's attack.

268: Feels that townies should play fearlessly.

This is a worrying quote, but can be chalked up to a difference in playstyles.

Doesn't like how Elias lost his temper. Votes Elias. Again questions Nelly on why he proclaimed ckd town.

275: Repeats that he thinks vollkan's attacks have been stronger that Elias' defense. Once again questions Nelly on why he proclaimed ckd "cleared... as scum". Unvotes Elias.

282: Defends his reasons for seeing Elias as scummy. Thinks that Oman putting Para on his list might be distancing, but admits he hasn't read about that in depth.

289: Feels like the game is slowing down enough to read things more carefully now. Admits that part of the reason he was pushing Elias was because of Elias' tantrum.

380: No content post. Says he is back from vacation and needs to read up.

436: Votes Sir Tornado to prod him into posting.

438: Claims that he is in favor of lynching Hermit under the "Lynch all Vanillas" rule. Wants to know what everyone expects to learn from everyone's lynch.

442: Puts an FOS on ckd for his pushes against Para.

447: Explains that he feels ckd has made a show of leading the town, and sees this as a newbie scumtell.

451: Says that he will remove the FOS if Para comes up scum.

466: Votes ckd with no explanation.

479: Asks vollkan why he thinks he will lurk through the deadline. Calls ckd noob scum, and implies his reason for voting was the PM to SPAG.

482: Although he is not convinced of Para's guilt, says that he will hammer Para when the deadline approaches. However, he will continue searching for other leads.

484 and 487: Again wonders why ckd PMed SPAG.

489: Wonders why, if ckd PMed SPAG in order to ask him to come back to the game, why he didn't PM pulse.

494: Says he was suspicious that one scum had PMed another, but the lukewarm reaction of the town convinced him this wasn't worth following up on. Unvotes, and says that he will hammer in 24 hours.

501: Asks SPAG why he thought Para was the most suspicious.

506: Delays his hammer in reaction to the extended deadline. Wants an answer to his question from 501.

508: Expresses uncertainty of what the votecount is.

522: Reposts his question to SPAG from 501.

524: After SPAG replies that he thought Para was scummy from vollkan's points, gorckat rides him by saying that SPAG earlier claimed he read Para's posts, and asks him what he saw. Note that SPAG just claimed that he has not read Para's posts yet.

I think that gorckat is becoming more sure of SPAG's scumness. With one scum gone already gone before Day 1 ends, a distancing move is too dangerous so I don't think it's that.

528: Defends his questioning of SPAG and ckd. Explains he advocates Lynch all Vanillas because a person got enough votes to force a claim out of them, and at worst is JUST a vanilla.

This one's a bit long to pick apart, so I've linked to the whole thing. Click the post number!

533: Can't remember where he's read the Lynch All Vanillas rule. Admits that he might be jumping at shadows concerning SPAG, and votes Para.

550: Now that we know Para is town, Oman's actions look like they were trying to protect Elias. Votes Elias.

554: There are now two "paths" for the day's discussion: ckd/SPAG and Elias.

557: Asks for confirmation about where Oman pulled the names for his list from. Weren't they all on Nelly's wagon?

559: Actually, DID pulse vote for Nelly?

561: Says that something about Oman calling Elias town doesn't "jive" with him.

562: Seems like the only things that happened with pulse is that Hermit and Para got on his case a little. vollkan didn't even mention him until Oman did.

569: Says that the things that made him think Elias were scum before still make him think he's scum. Notes that the way Elias finds SPAG town feels a lot like Oman calling Elias town.

588: In continuing his read-through, he finds Elias' answers to vollkan's questions again satisfactory. Says that he's more inclined to go with his gut on how the Oman list makes him look.

592: Compares Elias' opinions of SPAG, SirTornado, and Pulsewidth. Thinks it odd that Elias had no strong opinion of Pulse and a town read on SPAG, despite there being less content for SPAG than Pulse.

Note to self: One scum has called Elias town and Elias has called the other scum town. Look into this harder while doing a PbP analysis of Elias.

608: In response to Elias' assertion that he doesn't make judgments on content, he says that Pulse posted nearly the same amount that people he declared town posted, but gave him a "not enough to make an opinion, slightly scummy" view on Pulse. Concedes that he is not sure of Elias' guilt (he gives it an arbitrary value of 20% chance of Elias being town)

621: Feels he's read the "I want to vote for him" line from Yagami before, and muses whether it's a scum or a town tell.

627: Agrees with ckd that Yagami's read of Hermit as "neutral" is surprising.

638: Feels that either Yagami or Elias would make good lynches for today.

640: Laments that Day 2 hasn't been as active as Day 1.

642: Picks apart ckd's read of him.

Lots of points in a very dense format again, so I'm linking to the post.

663: Asks whether ckd has any response to his defense. Thinks Yagami and Elias are the scumpair.

669: In response to Hermit's question, clarifies that he meant a Yagami/Elias scumteam.

674: Thought he was creating a dialogue with ckd, and now wonders why ckd has to look up relevant points again. Explains to Yagami that if Elias doesn't think he's scum, than he thinks he's town. Asks for a votecount.

690: Attacks Elias' claim that lynching him creates a "near LyLo" scenario".

VERDICT: I see a lot of hunting here; looking for leads, asking questions, going after people who look suspicious and changing his mind when they satisfy him. This is textbook good town play. In my humble opinion, gorckat is

probably town

.

[TheHermit]

Geez, it took me three hours to do that. I hope you guys don't mind waiting until tomorrow for other two...

[curiouskarmadog]

OK updating my views and ratings from Day 2.

We have one mafia left, who is it?

Scale: 1 town 5 neutral 10 scum


Shanba, formerly Sir Tornado, formerly Kerplunk

Day 2, shanba caught Yag basically posting content for content’s sakes. Helped lynch scum, give some town creds, but again, Shanba only posted 4 lines(in 3 posts) of content Day 2 and Day 3. The fact he helped lynch scum went in his favor, but the lack of content in posts balances it out so there is no change.

Day 2 Rating 5, today’s rating 5.

Setael, formerly pulsewidth

Day 2, Lead the charge after SPAG (scum) with a secondary target of Elias. Had pretty solid analysis. Day 3, comes out of the gate attacking is secondary target (Elias). I think that his analysis is a again pretty solid. Seems to be actively scum hunting, and has appeared to have the town interests at heart. I think he is town.

Day 2 Rating 4, today’s rating 3.

Thehermit.

Hermit ranked high on my list Day 2. Yag gave Hermit a neutral rating and hermit was the only one that yag got to do a pbp on. (not really a tell either way). It doesn’t go into hermit’s favor that Yag gave is neutral rating before doing the analysis, but again, could be a tell either way. Seems concerned that if Elias comes up “red” so will he. Now we now know that both can not be scum, so this comment makes since if it came from a town perspective. Hermit feels Elias is our scum, and if he came up red (which hermit thought he would) he didn’t want to be associated with him. Again, Hermit did not vote on the SPAG/yag wagon, but I just don’t think Hermit likes to vote. Has done a PbP on Gorckat..Appears to be scum hunting..Back to not being sure about him. Not sure if he is acting town, or acting like he thinks town should act.

Day 2 Rating 7, today’s rating 5

Gorckat

Gorckat ranked up there with Hermit on my list Day 2. One thing that sticks out about Gorckat (other than doing practically nothing Day 2) was that he express a desire to vote Yag because he thought he might be scummy, but never did. I think this could be a way to distance, but never actually have to add to his partners way. He had no problem voting and pressure people Day 1, why does he have a problem doing it when we actually have scum on the line? Day 2 and 3, thinks Elias is out scum. However, he has done very little to help us find scum. If he thought yag and Elias were scum yesterday or today, how come he hasn’t put forth a case yet? Ask some questions? Anything? I think he is laying low. Coupled with my analysis yesterday I think it is a good possibility that he is our last scum.

Day 2 rating 7, today’s rating 8

Elias

Wasn’t sure about Elias yesterday. Was pretty much not around much or provided little content Day 2 (could be laying low). Preferred a Hermit lynch over Yag (ugh). Claims he did not see anyone’s case against Yag (which was only proves he was not really reading the game, but again ugh). I don’t like the fact he gave SPAG an “official town” rating Day 1 for no reason then just accidently overlooks all the cases again yag/spag day 2. I think seteal might have caught Elias in a lie.

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami.

Because no one ever really represented the case besides saying "OMG HES LURKING OMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" as far as I saw.

Claims that no made a case against Elias, I presented a case too, you didn’t see that either? I didn’t like much of elias’s defense to seteal’s attack. Seemed to be going out of the way to ignore SPAG/yag I think he too is a good candidate for scum.

Day 2 rating 6, today’s rating 8

Nelly

Again pop in voter and low low content. Again I don’t like his play, but I think that he just how he rolls….no change here. I would like him to take the time to put forth a case.

Day 2 rating 6, today’s rating 6


That being said, I support and will vote Elias or Gorckat (I think our last scum is in that pair)

Vote gorckat

[Shanba]

Ok, upon reading CKD's posts I reckon he's a decent lynch for today. Looking specifically at his day 2 posts:

SPAG has been replaced or killed for looking in all of his games...even the game he was modding a back up mod has taken over..

"Hello guys,

I don't often post on the forums other than in the legends and in the mafia games, but I would just like to enlighten the situation with Sean, aka SPAG.

I'm afraid it's bad news. He was involved in a footballing accident during a match which resulted in him damaging his back. He is still currently in hospital and is partially paralysed from the waist down, though it's thought to only be temporary and through physiotherapy he should be able to be active again at some point.

He will be carrying on with PFF and Mafia when he gets back from hospital, but as you can guess he will have other priorities. I hope he has a speedy recovery.

Paul"

This isn;t exceptional in itself, but earlier, when SPAG hadn't been under so much pressure he had been calling SPAG out for posting in other games but not this one. This is very minor though, until we get to ckd's analysis:

YagamiLight, formerly SPAG

Might I add I despise SPAG. I was in 3 other games that he was in and he had to be replaced in them all. Even the game is was modding (which I replaced into) had to go to a back up mod. In this game, SPAG lurked. When he did remerge he skimmed through posts and placed a vote. When attacked for this he unvoted. Said he would not hammer until he heard more from Para. Appears to set up anyone who pushed the Para lynch and then 38 minutes later he hammers for no reason. This has already been pointed out. The fact that SPAG left the site entirely shows that he didn’t really give a crap. In reference to this game, he could be a lazy bad townie or an obvious scum. Yag has not provided much info either (BUT more than SPAG). Breaks down Elias and I, sort of implies we look scummy (I think). Promises more content to come.

The fact that SPAG didn’t really give a crap (and eventually leaves the site completely) works in his favor when it comes to scumminess. If it weren’t for that I think the rating would be higher…however he is still pretty high on the scumdar. Rating 8

Gorckat

hmmm, another one I am back and forth on. Couple things early on had me feeling that Gorckat is scum. In Post 84, Oman gave Gorckat his seal of approval (for really no reason). Go back and read the argument (starting 80) knowing that oj was town and Oman was scum. Votes nelly 106 and revotes nelly 126 and goes on vacation. Personally I hate it when people vote and let us know they are leaving. So when the get back if someone has hung, they can always fall back on, well, I couldn’t removed my vote because I was gone. 9 posts later Oman puts Nelly at –2. Gorckat comes back from vacation post 181. (187) Gorckat challenges vollkan’s vig claim and town status. This rubbed me the wrong way, and still does. Post 197, puts Para at –2, but then unvotes (199) reasoning was strange. 213, questions why mafia would kill vollkan (this was obvious, thought this was a strange question). 215, ask Nelly why it is important to direct a doctor to protect vollkan, (again what)? Votes Elias at 268 (again –2) removes vote on 280 (not 270 as my pbp says) Gorckat sort of falls off my radar at this point. (442) FoSes me for “making a big show” about pushing the Para lynch. (443) I ask why he is FoSing me, almost appears that Gorckat knows Para’s alignment (retrospect) sort of beats around the bush for a couple posts when I ask him why my pushing for Para’s lynch is not pro town? Gives me some sort of answer (451). “its not?”? Post 482, says he will hammer Para is needed. (533) gorckat puts Para at –1. Hasn’t done too much since the NK. When seems to keep an attack on Elias and SPAG.

You know after writing this out and rereading it..you do look pretty scummy. When I started this post (on you) I thought maybe I would end up arguing that you were more neutral than anything (scum and town moves balancing each other out)…but now, I think you might be scum…Rating 7

-----------------Ok so that is my break down.

Top three SPAG/Hermit/Gorckat..however, there can be only 2.

I don’t like how this SPAG wagon is just flying by at warp speeds. Currently neither gorckat or hermit are on those wagons. Though Gorckat has stated that he might be putting SPAG to –1. Once I state we should not exceed –1, he mentions that he has no desire to end the day so fast…

After my two rereads…I am not liking Gorckat

Vote gorckat

Maybe we should start (conversation) by addressing my break down of you.

It seems very strange me that he should come to the conclusion that SPAG is scummier than than gorckat but then votes gorckat over SPAG. He cites SPAG's wagon growing quickly as a reason not to vote for him, and subtly defends SPAG by continually bringing up the excuse that he's lurking (despite having provided himself some fairly decent reasons to vote for him). He then hammers Yagamilight, contrary to his own opinion on the wagon (and cutting off other analyses which hadn't yet been finished, after specifically asking that noone hammer SPAG until he had finished his analysis.

He seems to think an awful lot of people are scum. He lists both Elias and Gorckat as 8s (a rating I disagree with fundamentally) and Nelly as 6. Basically, that's anyone who's really been under any pressure this game. It's also a neat list of who might be lynched.

On a side note, I meant Yagami/Spag's partner. That much should have been obvious, given that the front post says we only have three scum and two are dead.

HIs final post day 2:

ok, lets see what happens...he is on my scum dar (above hermit and gorckat)..the fact that neither has voted for him makes me wonder..

I will hammer..

unvote, vote Yagami

And yet Hermit hasn't changed on his scumlist, and elias has suddenly gained on him. This post could also very well be a last ditch attempt to get something out of his partner's lynch by linking a couple of players to him.

In summary,

Vote: CKD