Re-reading both Elias and pulse to the point Oman said that, I don't really see what makes Elias more pro-town at that point.vollkan wrote:I understand where you are coming from in regards to pulse; he is very suspicious. Would you prefer that I vig pulse?Oman wrote: I would want Paradox vigged much more then I would want Elias vigged.I think that Elias is more pro-town then pulse atm.
I think it's very possible that SPAG ignored the suspicion on you and Elias because at least one of you are mafia. Personally, I don't think it's Hermit - I'm getting a very pro-Town read on him. I do, however, think it's likely that SPAG paid no attention here to the case against Elias because they're scum buddies. The other main reason I think this is Oman's list:Hermit wrote:Post 478: SPAG returns, asks for the Cliff's Notes version of the case against Para (but not Elias or me, the other two frontrunners for suspicion at the time perhaps he's already made up his mind?).
quote really doesn’t mean anything yet..just thought it was funny, given his actions at the end of Day 1.SPAG wrote:oj is a bit of a loser really, he doesn't even read any games he just votes. In another game he voted for me when i was at -1 and i had character claimed.
Anyway, he could be town, he could be scum, theres just no way to tell.
by itself this is a scummy post, however it should be noted that Thehermit did not hammer Nelly or OJ(para later) when he had the chance.TheHermit wrote:I'm starting to think we're best off killing ojpower immediately so his lurking, random-voting self can't kill us later when we're at LyLo. At this point I don't even care whether he's scum or not, I want him gone.
Vote: ojpower
Why did he not mention that Para put Nelly at –1 “and left”…neither had posted after their vote.Sir Tornado wrote:I don't like the way Oman put Nelly on -2, and simply left.
Why do you think Pulse voted for Nelly?gorckat wrote:iirc, the 3 names on the list were drawn from the Nelly wagon, weren't they? Oman wasn't just pulling names out of the air.
I was the first to vote, Nelly self-voted, and the names on the list (and Oman himself) all voted Nelly afterwards, with one of them going on after Nelly unvoted, correct?
) Pulse did not vote for Nelly...it appears that Oman got the name out of the air.gorckat wrote:Did he? I actually haven't gone back and re-read today. What I remember were comments about other scum being on the Nelly wagon. I really couldn't say.
If he did vote Nelly and you're looking for my thoughts onwhyhe did, I'd have to re-read shortly (swamped at work, but still trying to play my games
Elias wrote:Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.
erm...what? The obvious scum move when making a kill is to take out the most obviously protown player (when there are lack of power roles)...I was simply saying that it makes me look worse because of my interactions with Vollkan. I'm getting really annoyed at how you look at every little post and say "oh he could be doing this as scum", when its equally likely I was trying to make a post with some content before I reread (still in progress). Basically youre WIFOMing the hell out of me, and its getting on my nerves.Setael wrote: This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK, and then wanted to beat us to the punch:Elias wrote:Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.
And what was your response then?TheHermit wrote:Elias - I find it hilarious that the same guy who claims my vote for oj was poor was going to lynch Nelly on page 6 for no other reason than because he self-voted. And was going to lynch him over me, even though he claims to be more suspicious of me! Can anyone else see the inherent contradiction here? It seems to me like he jumped on Nelly's wagon because it looked like a convenient ride to a lynch even though he knew there was probably a stronger case against me. I don't like the concept of voting in favor of convenience over legitimate suspicions AT ALL. That's a huge scumtell in my mind. Even after rereading vollkan interrogating him my mind hasn't changed on this, especially given how he continually avoided questions (see vollkan point this out in post 253, which is probably where I got the "shifty" impression from).
What a comeback. I'd like to point out that he didn't actually addressElias_the_thief wrote: I went over time and time again how I never intended to lynch Nelly, only pressure him. You do realize that voting someone does not necessarily mean you want them lynched right?
interesting.gorckat wrote: Your record as scum does not preclude you from being caught out here. Why are you playing to help the town by being afraid of a distancing accusation?
Interesting again. Elias also continues to question vollkan scumminess after I state he was cleared in my eyes until Day 2.Elias_the_thief wrote:
I actually havent brought up distancing once.
TheHermit wrote:Oooooor the mafia could simply pick somebody else to kill tonight and laugh as we lynch the townie dayvig tomorrow. If they're really crafty, they'd worm some way into making his survival looks suspicious so that the dayvig would be forced to lash out at one of his attackers, possibly killing another townie. Hey! Sorta like what you're doing!curiouskarmadog wrote:I said he his town in my book until DAY 2...but if I had money, I would put it on vollkan being NK tonight.
FOS: curiouskarmadog
He's confirmed as the dayvig. He's not confirmed scum or town. Even the night won't change that... well, unless he turns up dead in the morning.
Elias_the_thief wrote: So most of my suspicions are currently on Hermit and CKD, though I need to finish rereading, because I missed some players in my reread. (gorkcat, nelly, sirtornado)
Same here. I'm seeing things that convinced me the first time (that Elias was scum) and they still make good sense (reading Elias' posts alone and the buildup to the Oman vig, for the most part so far).ckd wrote: I am noticing somethings in the reread that I missed before, but need to finish to be sure.
Elias wrote:Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.
He responded with:Setael wrote:This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK, and then wanted to beat us to the punch
Notice how he doesn't really respond to my actual suspicion. I never disagreed that vollkan was very likely going to be the mafia's target last night. What I'm saying is the fact that he brought it up the way he did looked scummy.Elias wrote:erm...what? The obvious scum move when making a kill is to take out the most obviously protown player (when there are lack of power roles)...I was simply saying that it makes me look worse because of my interactions with Vollkan. I'm getting really annoyed at how you look at every little post and say "oh he could be doing this as scum", when its equally likely I was trying to make a post with some content before I reread (still in progress). Basically youre WIFOMing the hell out of me, and its getting on my nerves.
So he's assuming scum killed Vollkan to frame him (Elias)... or at least he's trying to make sure he beats us to making that argument, so that it loses it's umph. But the thing is... like Elias said, it seemed pretty cut and dry that scum would kill vollkan. So pointing out that he thinks scum killed vollkan to frame him just looks scummy to me. Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin. Like I said, it looks pre-planned. I can just see ScumElias thinking "Well we're killing vollkan, but people might think that makes me look scummy so I better say something about it right away before any of them can."Elias wrote:killing him off protrays me in a scummy light.
Firstly, yay for conjectures and putting words in my mouth! Good job! Secondly, If this doesnt go my way, then this doesnt go the towns way either, seeing as I'm protown. Also, what is suspicious about trying to deflect suspicion on yourself and onto someone who is suspicious, even if you could prove I was doing it? I have a townie have the exact same amount of motivation that a scum would have...so why does this make me scum?TheHermit wrote:This sounds to me like someone sees rumblings against him, and he picks the most publicly dubious of his attackers to make a case against him solely so he can throw back a "But you're scummy!" claim and deflect suspicion back to me. Fine, Elias, I'll bite. But just so you know, I don't think this is going to go your way.
I love how you misrepresent me and present opinion as fact. It's nice. I never once wanted to lynch you on that one vote alone. Are you insane? I've presented large amounts of evidence against which I plan to dredge up and post again when I finish my reread. Do you honestly just read my posts and not look at them at all? Because you're totally misrepresenting my reasons for voteing for you.TheHermit wrote: For starters, there's the double-talk. Elias has claimed over and over again that he shouldn't be suspected for voting Nelly because he had no intention of lynching (an unprovable statement), while at the same time claiming that my lone vote on oj is worthy of stringing me up.
Look! Opinion as fact again! I'm loving this! Pray tell, oh great Hermit, what is the chances of putting the third vote on someone turning into a lynch, if they are decent? Oh thats right, you have no clue. And even if you did, it would be based purely on your experience...and that has to do with the particular players in your game and what not...TheHermit wrote: Let me put that another way: according to him, putting the third vote on a non-contributor (decent chance of turning into a lynch)
You ignore the fact that the chances of things actually happening is purely irrelevant to whether an action is scummy. They are inadverdant consequences. Do you not see that you must look at things in terms of intent? Obviously I cant prove that I was voting for pressure, but even unwritten purposes are better then flat out claiming that you want him dead for not contributing, which is what you did. It is the intentions that make your actions scummy, not these made up "chances" that you keep bringing up.TheHermit wrote: Let me put that another way: according to him, putting the third vote on a non-contributor (decent chance of turning into a lynch) is less scummy than putting the first vote on a non-contributor (almost no chance of turning into a lynch).
What are you talking about? This stems entirely from you misunderstanding my process of scumhunting (ie looking at reasoning not hypothetical lynch possibilities). Since you dont understand how I decided what is suspicious, doesnt mean you make up some bogus reason for my opinions and present as if I said it myself. Putting words in my mouth for the win.TheHermit wrote: I shouldn't need to explain why this makes him look scummy: his viewpoints change depending on whether it puts suspicion on him or not.
Dumb enough to post it as your primary reason for voting him apparently. It would appear that you didnt see anything wrong with it until it was pointed out.TheHermit wrote: Right about now, Elias, you're probably thinking of deflecting suspicion by saying that I wasn't voting for pressure, I was trying to lynch him. I shall ask one question: "How dumb do you think I am?" .
You only admitted to that after you were pressured. What you are referring to is what I like to call the most obvious backtrack of the game.TheHermit wrote: Do you assume that, if I were scum, I would vote an anti-town (but not yet proven scum) player while admitting it was scummy to do so?
If you had not been pressured, you would have never called it scummy. Not to mention that the intelligence of the town is nothing you can just assume...I mean you guys are trying to lynch me, which will screw the town. I swear it. I will post this seperately and address the second half in a second.TheHermit wrote: How would that accomplish getting him voted out? It would not. No town is collectively stupid enough to follow a bandwagon like that. So in exchange for drawing attention and making myself look suspicious, Scum!Hermit would have achieved absolutely nothing.
Alright...lets just take a look at what you accuse me of....TheHermit wrote: Also, pay very close attention... these are the exact reasons I gave for being suspicious of Elias yesterday:TheHermit wrote:Elias - I find it hilarious that the same guy who claims my vote for oj was poor was going to lynch Nelly on page 6 for no other reason than because he self-voted. And was going to lynch him over me, even though he claims to be more suspicious of me! Can anyone else see the inherent contradiction here? It seems to me like he jumped on Nelly's wagon because it looked like a convenient ride to a lynch even though he knew there was probably a stronger case against me. I don't like the concept of voting in favor of convenience over legitimate suspicions AT ALL. That's a huge scumtell in my mind. Even after rereading vollkan interrogating him my mind hasn't changed on this, especially given how he continually avoided questions (see vollkan point this out in post 253, which is probably where I got the "shifty" impression from).
You did NOT make this point in your post. You said I was trying to lynch someone based on noncontribution. They are totally different points, and dont try to pretend you actually said that. Plus, I was suspicious of you for trying to lynch a noncontributor, not just voting him. If you had just voted him, I wouldnt have found it odd in the least.TheHermit wrote:
And what was your response then?
What a comeback. I'd like to point out that he didn't actually addressElias_the_thief wrote: I went over time and time again how I never intended to lynch Nelly, only pressure him. You do realize that voting someone does not necessarily mean you want them lynched right?anyof the points I made, those being:
1) He accused me on the EXACT same grounds that he has been accused (voting a non-contributor), yet feel that suspicion against me is warranted and suspicion against him is "BS".
Town who want to create more pressure and create discussion? Do you know anything about mafia at all? Bandwagons are good for town.TheHermit wrote: 2) Even though he was more suspicious of me, he voted Nelly because Nelly had more votes. (He admits as much in post 211) Come now, who but scum would benefit from actions like that?
Dodging points...you mean the ones that you just made up, and that werent actually in your original reasoning for suspecting me? So I have a history eh? How about giving me an example of me dodging a question that HASNT been proven to be someone misunderstanding one of my points?TheHermit wrote: 3) He has a history of dodging questions and suspicions instead of answering them. Kinda like he did just now.
Dodged points that you didnt actually make, and made up opinions that I never had. Good reasoning Hermit.TheHermit wrote: That is whyIam suspicious of you, Elias. Although I'd love to hear from everyone else why they are suspicious of you so I know whether I'm on the right track.
Setael wrote:Still need to do a re-read, but I find this whole thing scummy, and Elias telling me I'm getting on his nerves is not going to make me drop the argument:
First Elias says this:Elias wrote:Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.
Then I say this:He responded with:Setael wrote:This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK, and then wanted to beat us to the punchNotice how he doesn't really respond to my actual suspicion. I never disagreed that vollkan was very likely going to be the mafia's target last night. What I'm saying is the fact that he brought it up the way he did looked scummy.Elias wrote:erm...what? The obvious scum move when making a kill is to take out the most obviously protown player (when there are lack of power roles)...I was simply saying that it makes me look worse because of my interactions with Vollkan. I'm getting really annoyed at how you look at every little post and say "oh he could be doing this as scum", when its equally likely I was trying to make a post with some content before I reread (still in progress). Basically youre WIFOMing the hell out of me, and its getting on my nerves.
This is accusing me of using this to cover my NK, which relies entirely on me being scum, which NO ONE has been able to argue convincingly. Not to mention it is total conjecture and total opinion.Setael wrote:This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK,
Elias wrote:killing him off protrays me in a scummy light.
Actually, youre assuming I assumed that. I simply said that the action does that. I didnt say that the action was decided on this basis.Setael wrote: So he's assuming scum killed Vollkan to frame him (Elias)...
Conjecture.Elias wrote: or at least he's trying to make sure he beats us to making that argument, so that it loses it's umph.
I didnt point that out. I said the kill portrays me scummily, not that this was the rationale behind it. What is with you guys and putting words in my mouth?Elias wrote:So pointing out that he thinks scum killed vollkan to frame him just looks scummy to me.
This is anti town? Wouldnt a townie have the same motivation to shoot down arguments against him that are illogical?Elias wrote: Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin.
Elias wrote: Like I said, it looks pre-planned. I can just see ScumElias thinking "Well we're killing vollkan, but people might think that makes me look scummy so I better say something about it right away before any of them can."
Read closer. Vollkan, proven townie, admitted it was a meta debate in the end and he actually had no evidence in the end. Are you seriously convinced that I'm scum by his admittal of error?curiouskarmadog wrote: The vollkan/Elias exchange was very time consuming to read, but there are some good points there.