Mini 1729 - History Mafia II END

[Errantparabola]

Bastion, you asked me about KT and Dwlee originally tunneling each other and then moving on to buddying each other, but I deleted the quote and got so frustrated that I lost everything that I'm not going back to find it. Sorry. I think that the reason Dwlee transitioned to defending KT is because of meta, which he expressly states he uses only for KT because reading him is difficult otherwise (and I agree). I'm inclined to believe this meta read because nothing stands out to me in their interactions as both being scum. So in a sense, I don't think Dwlee is defending KT too much.

I dont necessarily think the reads list is scummy, i think it doesnt go eitherway.

You say things like this a lot.

Can you give me 3 thoughts on the game that contain a decent amount of certainty in them?

Only a sith deals in absolutes, but I'll try.
Ari is an easy mislynch. I don't like how people were either quick to vote him or quick to support a vote on him while voting someone else. If aristo is town then there is scum in that pool.
I strongly dislike spiffeh's push on me. He expresses frustration that I'm coasting and "no one is interacting with me" and so he asks me what my read on scorp is, which I provide. Spiffeh looks like he couldn't care less about my answer, even after I directly ask him what he thought about it, and he ignores me, exactly what he criticizes others for doing. Somehow I feel like that last phrase was grammatically incorrect but I don't really know. Oh well. Spiffeh's 621 (see beardedcat I took your advice, be proud of me) stands out to me as odd, as he's jumping on the aristo wagon while saying he actually supports another lynch, a point which I think gummmy touches on.
Again, Dwlee and KT are probably town, at least for now. If something stands out to me as a faked interaction, I'd probably go for KT above Dwlee.
The way Scorpious attacks Bastion's line of questioning instead of actually answering them stands out to me as leaning towards scummy. I'd really like for him to answer.
I wonder how Rory would react to the aristo wagon and the people on it. Hope he comes back soon, I think his VLA ends today.

Yeah, I kinda started rambling there

[Dwlee99]

How did you know I had boobs? ;-;

[Spiffeh]

Reading ish

Even if I'm difficult to read I'll be easy enough to sort in the late game so people shouldn't worry so much on day 1. It's premature. But I understand it because Sonic townread me all game, so he's paranoid of me now. Titus modded it.

This implies that you think MS is town, as you're saying he is paranoid of you being scum. But you vote for him later in the same post.

Your vote is really weak. Even if he was wrong about BBT ignoring the game (I don't think it's such an incorrect statement) why do you automatically assume he was lying and not give him the benefit of the doubt? This looks like OMGUS disguised as a reason to me. I think you're panicking

[Spiffeh]

Ugh SW your jump on Sonic is almost as bad tbh

[Spiffeh]

Especially because it wasn't a good point.

[Spiffeh]

You said "he's ignoring this game" as if it were only this game that he's ignoring. he's ignoring the entire website. perhaps he's ignoring the rest of the internet too. And tyou did it in response to someone saying that Ari was posting elsewhere so it sounded like you were saying that BBT was posting elsewhere but he's not.

will reply to longer post but still haven't coffeed yet or breakfasted.

--P

Or he hasn't been tracking BBT's every move on the site and has only noticed his absence this game? Which is an extremely plausible possibility. This line of suspicion is ridiculous.

[Spiffeh]

I really don't like Plot's justification for catapulting me up to a town read.

What don't you like about it?

It basically boiled down to "I like his readslist" but he repeated that like seven times in seven different ways and made it as long as possible when one sentence would have sufficed. That might be his posting style but the amount of walls I'm seeing that have paragraphs of filler don't sit well with me.

CotW have had awful voting all game but I have to be careful here because I think I have scum read Titus every single time we have played together.

I'm pretty sure SW has cast like all but one vote so far so I don't see how these thoughts relate.

Spiffeh's jump on there for no reason after needing almost no convincing to jump onto BC seems a little too eager to go where the wind blows voting wise

I did give a reason. Plot's post pinged me and my EP vote was just going to waste. And you seemed equally as eager to vote for BC and Metal Sonic whenever someone was calling them scum so I don't really know where this is coming from.

[Spiffeh]

I strongly dislike spiffeh's push on me. He expresses frustration that I'm coasting and "no one is interacting with me" and so he asks me what my read on scorp is, which I provide. Spiffeh looks like he couldn't care less about my answer, even after I directly ask him what he thought about it, and he ignores me, exactly what he criticizes others for doing. Somehow I feel like that last phrase was grammatically incorrect but I don't really know. Oh well. Spiffeh's 621 (see beardedcat I took your advice, be proud of me) stands out to me as odd, as he's jumping on the aristo wagon while saying he actually supports another lynch, a point which I think gummmy touches on.

This is fair. I actually meant to dedicate time to reading your posts but I never did which sounds really douchey but I remember at the time I wanted to devote more time to them than I had and just never bothered and forgot they existed. My apologies.

I think your posts were fine and the very fact that you point this out instead of allowing me to ignore it points to you being town. If you were scum I would expect you to avoid interacting with me after I said I wanted you lynched but you didn't and I like that.

[Spiffeh]

And I don't necessarily see what's wrong with voting for someone but wanting someone else lynched ultimately?

It's kinda like the situation with you, where I (well I guess CoTW pointed it out) noticed someone I was scumreading slipping through the cracks and I wanted to bring him back on everyone's radars as well as hear more from him.

[Spiffeh]

KT why did you jump off Scorpious? You seemed extremely convinced that he was scum last time you posted.

Aristo and Scorpious are MIA rn so in an effort to put my vote somewhere that it doesn't go to waste I'll VOTE: BeardedCat

[BeardedCat]

Reading ish

Even if I'm difficult to read I'll be easy enough to sort in the late game so people shouldn't worry so much on day 1. It's premature. But I understand it because Sonic townread me all game, so he's paranoid of me now. Titus modded it.

This implies that you think MS is town, as you're saying he is paranoid of you being scum. But you vote for him later in the same post.

Paranoia can be faked. Him displaying it is a good sign and I'd be worried if he didn't display any, but I'm not treating it as a 100% towntell either. scum sonic would know that i would expect him to act a certain way and try to act that way. There's also the flip side that I was a third party in that game and sonic and I worked together to own the groupscum, so if he's scum he could be paranoid that I'll catch him.

Also, if my friends are town then I want to be able to work together with them after we sort each other. I'm remembering a quote from MathDino (I think, I just spent a while trying to find it again and couldn't) in Refraction where he said something like always talk to people as if they were townreads and about them as if they were scumreads and I really liked that and it's something I've been trying to emulate since then.

It doesn't give you pause that the people who know sonic best are all scumreading him?

This looks like OMGUS disguised as a reason to me. I think you're panicking

nah. there's nothing to panic about. The three of us need to sort each other and we're doing that.

Or he hasn't been tracking BBT's every move on the site and has only noticed his absence this game? Which is an extremely plausible possibility. This line of suspicion is ridiculous.

or it's not arduous to check whether what you're saying is correct by click on a person's name and site search them quickly before making an accusation against them.

It basically boiled down to "I like his readslist" but he repeated that like seven times in seven different ways and made it as long as possible when one sentence would have sufficed. That might be his posting style but the amount of walls I'm seeing that have paragraphs of filler don't sit well with me.

when it looks like i'm repeating something across multiple sentences, i usually think i'm saying something different in each sentence.

It would be nice if people would try to meet me halfway on communication stuff. I am doing the best I can to communicate as concisely and coherently as I can and am avoiding posting when I can tell I'm not languaging well. That is all I can do.

I'm going to bed.

--P

[Spiffeh]

Even if BBT is inactive site-wide, the statement "BBT is ignoring this thread" is not inaccurate.

[BeardedCat]

it's not inaccurate, but it's misleading, especially because of the timing of the post, coming in response to somebody else posting elsewhere but ignoring the thread. it carries the implication that BBT is doing the same thing. Someone else is posting elsewhere but ignoring the thread. BBT was ignoring elsewhere and ignoring the thread.

that's not the whole reason we're voting him though. there's more to it. general behaviour stuff and interaction stuff and tonal things. but going to bed because if i try to explain it'll be 3am before i'm done and i'm tired.

--P

[Scorpious]

Not MIA.. Just don't do a lot of compurering on weekends.

[Call of the Wild]

Ugh SW your jump on Sonic is almost as bad tbh

That was Titus as was plainly obvious if you read it:

VOTE: Metal Sonic

I hope SW let's me keep this.

CotW have had awful voting all game but I have to be careful here because I think I have scum read Titus every single time we have played together.

I'm pretty sure SW has cast like all but one vote so far so I don't see how these thoughts relate.

Votes Titus has cast: 43, 323, 627

Votes I have cast: 26, 222, 569

Spiffeh's jump on there for no reason after needing almost no convincing to jump onto BC seems a little too eager to go where the wind blows voting wise

I did give a reason. Plot's post pinged me and my EP vote was just going to waste. And you seemed equally as eager to vote for BC and Metal Sonic whenever someone was calling them scum so I don't really know where this is coming from.

No, I was talking about your jump onto Ari when I brought up him posting elsewhere while not here after just recently jumping onto BC as soon as Sonic and myself did. The votes on MS are from Titus.

~SW

[Dwlee99]

I think my smaller posts are getting drowned out by the massive walls of other players, lol.

Just to repeat: If it has to be BC or MS we're lynching MS but I'd rather see an Ari lynch.

[Spiffeh]

Wow I'm bad

[KTthecreeper]

The problem with your argument is that I give a fuck about you but I don't give a fuck about KT.

k

[Dwlee99]

You have to say more than that KT.

What are your thoughts on Bc v Ms?

[Sir Bastion]

I'll catch up in the next day (or 2 thats a lot of pages that appeared today) but quickly so I have answers to these when I catch up.

I mean come on page 18 is a thing of beauty. Just look at it, Scorpious is clearly goading creeper to continue picking at him and when

I tell creeper to shut up and go away Scorpious straight away shuts up too

, but he's not gone cause he pops up again when Dwlee posts, but if neither of them are around, goodbye Scorpious.

I mean for god sake I ask what is the point if you are scumhunting in telling a player (who you think is scum) that you are just going to treat them like they dont exist? Thats intentional antagonizing of a player who has been shown to be immature not for information but for noise, a skirt to hide behind.

I think you're misrepping Scorpious pretty hard here.

Scorpious was clearly trying to disengage from KT - I feel he made this abundantly clear. Yes, he was rude and he could have phrased it in a better way, but he quite clearly did not want to engage with KT. I really don't understand the bold either, if Scorpious was so obviously goading KT why would he not just continue even though you asked KT to shut up? Like, you would want Scorpious to stop as well...right?

I'm not sure I follow fully, but let me ask you if you think I intentionally misrepped?


To answer as best as I can, I dont think Scorpious was trying to disengage from KT at all, you dont disengage with back and forth biting posts, you shut it down with an answer and if they are not satisfied you let them tire themselves out, it's not really your issue anymore it's up to the rest of town to judge their case and your response and its only if the town start backing his case despite your response do you need to come back to it, otherwise why bother? They didnt like your answer and are just repeating themselves. Such things have happened with other players in this game and you can argue scorpious attitude to answering other players fits that playstyle but not his creeper interactions.

Unless you thought KT was bringing anything new with his snapping posts for Scorpious to address then there was no reason to keep up a very repetitive back and forth.

As for the bolded part, I clearly stated before hand in a number of posts, including one just before telling creeper to shut up that I was waiting for Scorpious to be pro active, when creeper went away that was an opportunity for Scorpious to clear some air on the wider game from his perspective, perhaps present his case why creeper was still scum despite the whole age revelation etc, instead once he no longer needed to argue with creeper he stopped posting, despite clearly still being active as he does post less then a hour later to repeat his *i'm ignoring Creeper routine to Dwlee.

[gummmybear]

Time for my thoughts on MS vs BeardedCat.

I like MS' train of thought in his 628, it echoes a lot of the thoughts I had running through my head on seeing that Scorp/BC interaction. I've been reading BC as town for playstyle and similarities in thought, but because of that, I have had paranoid suspicions about them. I know if I was scum in this game (spoiler alert: I'm town), with the amount of noise and easy targets, I would also be happily doing everything BC/myself is doing right now. And I would not drop the opportunity to direct the flow of the game with a post like the one to Scorpious at that point in time - though I would probably do a more shallow play like push a mislynch on someone else. Trusting MS' assertion and BC's own admissions as well I believe that BC especially Plot is an incredible scum player, I find myself getting more uneasy with the slot. Feeling better however about MS' slot and his push on BC.

The back and forth after that about BBT's inactivity (the reason for BC's serious vote onto MS) seems a bit of an overreaction from BC - before that, from my quick skim through, BC seems to have been half townreading MS (BBT head) while Plot head was undecided but willing to give MS space. Moreover, my impression of MS' ISO before that has been direct and somewhat inflammatory posts like that. Was that really enough of a point to vote MS seriously? (I take the listing L-6 after him when you haven't done so previously for any votes as an indicator of seriousness.) And from my reading of how CoTW and you treat him, MS is supposedly a good player with depth of thought that is not shown in his trollish demeanor. Am I to believe that you seriously believe that a player that you think is as good as MS would do a weakscum play like trying to accuse someone of posting elsewhere while not posting here? And a hydra, no less.

Now, on to BC's big reply to MS in 645. I do like how BC didn't just focus on the weakest point in the argument, MS' assertion that it was done as a grab for towncred, but addressed and tried to refute each point. I'm quite okay with most of the post and it reads generally null to me - it's well-argued and reasoned, but I could see it as a response from both TownBC and ScumBC as MS' post was surprisingly well articulated and reasoned, and had a very measured tone (perhaps a peek into his inner world?). One of the things that stands out from that post is this though:

- I'm scum and scorpious is scum too. If this were the case I would totally have just bussed him and be done with it. Even if he was the only power role/best power role on the scumteam, perhaps especially then because I'd be hoping someone would write me off as town for driving a lynch on my roleblocker/rolecop/strongman/godfather/whatever. As scum, I try to do several "why the fuck would scumPlot do that" things per game. Your response to one of those things is now in my signature on my main!

Self meta and what you would have done in the situation is pretty much null to me - nobody knows you well enough to dispute that. The last line though? That points out what the entire paragraph is - a huge chunk of WIFOM. After all, scumPlot tries to do unexpected and inexplicable things - so if he does the obvscum thing like coaching, that would point to not scumPlot right? Except. scumPlot tries to do unexpected and inexplicable things - maybe this time doing the obvscum is unexpected. It's circular reasoning and doesn't really explain anything except that we need to take your word that you would bus him as scum. Not buying it.

So anyway, I'm mostly fine with the rest of the post. It piques my curiosity though - so what are you seeing so far from Scorp's reactions, BCPlot? Also, if MS' post feels good to me because it echoes my thoughts and a bit of playing style, shouldn't you feel that resonance too? Is it because it's directed at you that you're not reaching out to him anymore but instead scumreading him?

And I want Scorp to address this:

how do you feel about BC now after what was done? And do you agree with BC's assertion that you would be scumreading BC because of the newbie that you were both in?

The rest of the fight doesn't really stand out much to me, except for one more point: BBT's pushing of MS' comment that CoTW's posting was good questioning (that's quite a clunky string of possessives but I'm lazy to make it sleeker.) I'm honestly puzzled as to why this would be a thing to point out at all. To me, it seems obvious that MS is saying that CoTW's question is pro-town/useful to town (and that reactions to it will probably help to glean alignments etc.), but not that it's townie or a towntell or whatever. Protown vs townie and anti-town vs scummy, yeah? Like how posting noise and nonsense on Day 1 could be anti-town but not necessarily scummy. I'm again a bit skeptical at the push on this - I feel that BC hydra should really know better. Thoughts on this?

In general, I feel uneasy about BC in this fight with MS - I keep feeling twinges of "BC should really know better."

I'm also quite interested in how most of the thread has not commented much on this except dwlee - to which I will ask why do you feel it's TvT?

In the meantime, I'm interested to see what will happen when I do this.

UNVOTE: Scorpius

VOTE: BeardedCat

[Rory]

I'm back. Looks like there was quite a lot of activity in this thread. I will try and catch up asap.

[BeardedCat]

I know if I was scum in this game (spoiler alert: I'm town), with the amount of noise and easy targets, I would also be happily doing everything BC/myself is doing right now.

Why?

Trusting MS' assertion and BC's own admissions as well I believe that BC especially Plot is an incredible scum player, I find myself getting more uneasy with the slot.

I have actually only won one scumgame.

This is burden of proficiency and it's unpleasant to be on the receiving end of. You know who else are good at being scum? Metal Sonic, Call of the Wild, and Bellaphant. Possibly some other people too but I don't have experience with them to say either way. If you lynch the four of us just for being good at mafia, town will be in bad shape, because we are all also decent at being town and those of us who are town will be an asset.

Plot head was undecided but willing to give MS space.

This was 100% about not knowing how to talk to Sonic without bringing in stuff from an ongoing game that has since completed.

(I take the listing L-6 after him when you haven't done so previously for any votes as an indicator of seriousness.)

This is something I saw Vi do in a game I spectated and a habit I'm trying to get into with the goal of doing it everytime I vote but I still forget half the time. But it was also a serious vote.

Am I to believe that you seriously believe that a player that you think is as good as MS would do a weakscum play like trying to accuse someone of posting elsewhere while not posting here?

Yes.

And a hydra, no less.

I don't see how this makes a difference either way.

Self meta and what you would have done in the situation is pretty much null to me - nobody knows you well enough to dispute that.

Bella has hydraed with me in the past, she might know me well enough. A few other people know that I've never yet needed to lie as scum (Titus, Rory maybe, Bella, BBT but he doesn't count, Metal Sonic if he was paying attention). But it's good to treat it as null.

After all, scumPlot tries to do unexpected and inexplicable things - so if he does the obvscum thing like coaching, that would point to not scumPlot right? Except. scumPlot tries to do unexpected and inexplicable things - maybe this time doing the obvscum is unexpected. It's circular reasoning and doesn't really explain anything except that we need to take your word that you would bus him as scum. Not buying it.

Okay, I see where you're having trouble. By doing the unexpected I don't mean "too scummy to be scum" stuff. That's not my style. I play to my town meta as best as I'm able. This is the kind of thing that I mean (Banana Frog is me): revealing to the town what groupscum's best strategy is and then working with the town to counteract it. Which is exactly what my townself would have been doing, too.

Yet I didn't win that game. I was lynched on day 9 and the last groupscum was lynched on day 10 and then it was over. I was caught fairly by other people who played well.

So anyway, I'm mostly fine with the rest of the post. It piques my curiosity though - so what are you seeing so far from Scorp's reactions, BCPlot?

I will do this today. I would have gotten there sooner but people keep engaging me about stuff.

Also, if MS' post feels good to me because it echoes my thoughts and a bit of playing style, shouldn't you feel that resonance too? Is it because it's directed at you that you're not reaching out to him anymore but instead scumreading him?

I don't know.

I'm also quite interested in how most of the thread has not commented much on this except dwlee - to which I will ask why do you feel it's TvT?

Maybe they're trying not to fan the flames or step on our toes while we sort each other and ourselves out.

--P

[Metal Sonic]

The only thing that caught my attention in that post was "Bellaphant?!"

[BeardedCat]

I thought she played well as scum in Refraction, which is the only time I've seen her scumgame. I townread her there. She tends to come off as scummy as town but her scumplay is pretty good.

--P