@Sir Bastion: I don't mind the wagon on us and I understand it; it's paranoia backlash from a recently completed game in which I played well as third party and nevermind that being a third party is almost like being town except you can't win with the town because you have to scumhunt just as hard to eliminate the opposing scumteam before they crosskill you. It was my reads that they sheeped to victory after they lynched me, so I was like an auxilliary backup townie if anything.
Even if I'm difficult to read I'll be easy enough to sort in the late game so people shouldn't worry so much on day 1. It's premature. But I understand it because Sonic townread me all game, so he's paranoid of me now. Titus modded it.
BBT is busy with offline stuff. We don't have any way of contacting each other outside of mafia scum, so if he's not online then I can't make him magically appear online. He'll appear when he does. I'm the more active head in all of my hydrae; 75% of the posts in my hydra with bella were me in both games we played and we were town there. BBT will show up when he does and you can sort us based on his posts or mine or a combination or however you like. It is what it is.
Lying about my other head's activity levels is scummy, sonic. BBT is alive in two games. He's also moderating a game. The last time he posted anywhere on the site that I can see is a post in our hydra PT on Thursday, just a few minutes after he posted in this game. If you sitesearch him, his last public post on the site is that hydraslip in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 9&sr=posts.
When I was active lurking for a couple days after mastin made me cry (and because you guys were massclaiming while my hydra partner was on v/la. it was half the one thing half the other), I didn't post anywhere on site except to provide vote counts for my players in the game I was modding. BBT hasn't even posted a vote count elsewhere in that timeframe. He's really offline for reals.
VOTE: Metal Sonic L-6
The reason I've been so weird about sonic this game so far is that I didn't know how to talk to or about him without talking about WiFoM City. And I was still salty from what happened and I didn't know how to sort him without it being a rematch and I don't want it to be a rematch where I lynch him just because I'm mad about being lynched in some other game. I want to lynch him because he's scum if he is. But the way he's misrepresenting BBT's activity levels is bad.
I'm going to make coffee and then I'll circle back to other points that have been made recently.
--P
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
tbh-I made that observation as an observation, and to see if I could get Ari back in here as I have done that before. Said so and so it posting elsewhere and that often gets them into the game-and usually a little irritated with me as well, which is good for reads too in a way. Ari didn't see it probs cuz he's not active lurking here or decided to ignore it and so it's more null than scum. This is of course just this one tell/reaction test which is pretty much gonna become useless in the future as I keep explaining it.
pedit: good point on Sonic if he's misrepping BBT
Titus is convinced Sonic is scum so I will consult with her on this.
I'm not liking BeardedCat's 519 - it pings me. Their hydra is incredibly good at scum, so it sounds like coaching to gain towncred.
Two important things stand out to me from BeardedCat's post:
1) Trying to defuse the situation and subtly create a feel of double standards with the why are people picking on Scorp's readslist but not mine line of thought.
In the first place, to me - it was not the reads list itself that was most scummy, but the timing thereof. The scumminess of the readslists itself is only a secondary point to that. Moreover, this is a point that Bearded stated himself, and was the trigger to starting the whole focus on Scorp's readslist. Pings me as odd, and makes me also want to look at other people attacking Scorp for readslist - what are they criticising him for? Wanted to look at CoTW's reaction to this, but inconclusive
2) The intention of the post
The tone of this post is very conciliatory, admittedly because of his previous IC experience with Scorp and everything. But it seems to me a little too much to offer in terms of depth and at just the right time too where Scorp has given up, especially when Bearded is not an IC in this game. It seems almost designed to earn the trust of the player. Most suspiciously, in 532, he shows that his read on Scorp is still as scummy, claiming it's a work in progress and that he's a little less scummy (but doesn't state why).
I'm finding it hard to believe that the coaching post would come from a town mentality towards a slot they are scumreading. The only thing I can think of is that it's a reaction test to fish for reactions from Scorp and the rest. With the way the post has been engineered and timed, I don't think it's a good reaction test on Scorp's alignment - as both scum and Town, his reaction would be the same - be grateful, and then follow the coached points.
It sounds more like Beardedscum/3P to Scorptown perspective, because it would gain huge trust from Scorp, and Scorp will probably still play bad enough that he can be carried to LyLo or at least saved as a mislynch for another day.
Townreading Scorp because of the genuineness of his posts and he looks like he's trying to figure stuff out. I have one completed game with him where I identified him as scum very easily. Don't think this is the case.
So, it looks like BeardedCat trying to gain favor and towncred.
I'm not the only player that has found issues with her posts, apparently.
In post 625, BeardedCat wrote:The reason I've been so weird about sonic this game so far is that I didn't know how to talk to or about him without talking about WiFoM City. And I was still salty from what happened and I didn't know how to sort him without it being a rematch and I don't want it to be a rematch where I lynch him just because I'm mad about being lynched in some other game. I want to lynch him because he's scum if he is. But the way he's misrepresenting BBT's activity levels is bad.
In post 626, Call of the Wild wrote:tbh-I made that observation as an observation, and to see if I could get Ari back in here as I have done that before. Said so and so it posting elsewhere and that often gets them into the game-and usually a little irritated with me as well, which is good for reads too in a way. Ari didn't see it probs cuz he's not active lurking here or decided to ignore it and so it's more null than scum. This is of course just this one tell/reaction test which is pretty much gonna become useless in the future as I keep explaining it.
pedit: good point on Sonic if he's misrepping BBT
Titus is convinced Sonic is scum so I will consult with her on this.
~SW
tell titus that i'll powerlynch her if she keeps up this behavior
alternatively, i could do it myself.
titus i'm town. i don't know if you're town or not and you're leaning towards scum. i'm always nice to give you time to obvtown up, but if you fail to do so, you're a guaranteed lynch. theres a 100% chance you're losing this 1v1. dont mess with me
You said "he's ignoring this game" as if it were only this game that he's ignoring. he's ignoring the entire website. perhaps he's ignoring the rest of the internet too. And tyou did it in response to someone saying that Ari was posting elsewhere so it sounded like you were saying that BBT was posting elsewhere but he's not.
will reply to longer post but still haven't coffeed yet or breakfasted.
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
In post 631, BeardedCat wrote:You said "he's ignoring this game" as if it were only this game that he's ignoring. he's ignoring the entire website. perhaps he's ignoring the rest of the internet too. And tyou did it in response to someone saying that Ari was posting elsewhere so it sounded like you were saying that BBT was posting elsewhere but he's not.
will reply to longer post but still haven't coffeed yet or breakfasted.
--P
he has been ignoring this game since the start of this game.
i don't think this is a point that you want to push me on. i can slam dunk you if i feel that >90% certainty that you're scum
same warning to titus. SW is making me feel good so I'm going to let her be for now
Metal-You seem to be confused here. Anything you say to Titus, you are saying to me. If you threaten to powerlynch Titus, you are threatening to powerlynch me. If you go after her, you go after me.
Titus doesn't obvtown. I can if I feel like it. You haven't played with me much but I don't put up with threats or intimidation tactics.
He's busy with work. This isn't the BBT we remember from the summer who was alive in 10 games and keeping up with all of them. This is a BBT who is only alive in 2 games at a time and is still not very active in any of them. He prodged a lot as town in his recently completed newbie game, sometimes for an entire week in a row there's only "prodge prodge prodge".
But you're correct that this isn't a point that I find interesting debating. He's ignoring all his games. He likes being scum more than he likes being town. Maybe that means we're town? Maybe it means he's busy in real life?
Spoiler: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Both! It means both of those things!
Neither of us are the kind of player for whom activity is indicative of alignment so this is pointless. Your other post is more interesting. I'm happy to talk about why I was blatantly coaching scorpious and I will in my next post.
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
In post 633, Call of the Wild wrote:Metal-You seem to be confused here. Anything you say to Titus, you are saying to me. If you threaten to powerlynch Titus, you are threatening to powerlynch me. If you go after her, you go after me.
Titus doesn't obvtown. I can if I feel like it. You haven't played with me much but I don't put up with threats or intimidation tactics.
~SW
Yeah I get that.
My Titus read overrides my read on you. I have a 100% read rating on her and played with her in many games. I've only known you because you abandoned the scum team in team mafia
Oddly, I am townreading you off generic criteria, but that only buys you a game day or teo
I also have 100% read rating on Titus this game. I am 100% reading Titus as town right now. If you also have 100% ability to read her, then you are failing miserably if you think we are scum.
In post 442, Spiffeh wrote:
Nah I want ErrantParabola to stop being ignored. What do you think about him?
I don't have much of an opinion on him. I did feel like he was skirting around the edges of the game and not getting too involved but his posting in the last couple of pages has been much better.
In that case, you should ISO him and tell me what you think.
I share your concerns with the CotW slot. Their voting so far has been awful.[/quote]
In post 458, Errantparabola wrote:
I find it interesting that KT puts up this image of him and Dwlee attacking Scorpius together when earlier they seemed to be at each others throats.
Why is it 'interesting'? What do you think it means?
In post 462, gummmybear wrote:
What's also interesting to me is how everyone who has raised points against him or is voting him is considered scummy on his list (Sir Bastion, myself, dwlee and KT) although dwlee and KT at that point are honestly easy scumtargets. Bearded, any thoughts on this?
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
In post 493, Sir Bastion wrote:
I mean come on page 18 is a thing of beauty. Just look at it, Scorpious is clearly goading creeper to continue picking at him and when
I tell creeper to shut up and go away Scorpious straight away shuts up too
, but he's not gone cause he pops up again when Dwlee posts, but if neither of them are around, goodbye Scorpious.
I mean for god sake I ask what is the point if you are scumhunting in telling a player (who you think is scum) that you are just going to treat them like they dont exist? Thats intentional antagonizing of a player who has been shown to be immature not for information but for noise, a skirt to hide behind.
I think you're misrepping Scorpious pretty hard here.
Scorpious was clearly trying to disengage from KT - I feel he made this abundantly clear. Yes, he was rude and he could have phrased it in a better way, but he quite clearly did not want to engage with KT. I really don't understand the bold either, if Scorpious was so obviously goading KT why would he not just continue even though you asked KT to shut up? Like, you would want Scorpious to stop as well...right?
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
I actually felt pretty sorry for the newbies in that game because I could see the mark I'd left on them in their subsequent games and most of them came out of it scumreading people with playstyles like mine even though usually when I see someone playing like my scum meta, they flip town. But I was actually struggling a lot that game myself, couldn't get into the town bloc and I was having offline problems that were distracting me and everyone was scumreading me for the wrong reasons and as a result, I couldn't reach out to scorpious and help him the way I would have helped if I were town.
Scorpious was behaving in that game a lot like he was behaving in this one. He was struggling and I couldn't afford to do anything about it because I was up against a bunch of obvtown newbies that I couldn't pretend to scumread with a straight face and I had very slim pickings for mislynch candidates. There were two viable mislynches, scorpious and bananacucho and I couldn't afford to lose scorpious as a mislynch so I let him drown and didn't even toss him a lifejacket to see whether he could swim to shore or not. and then I nightkilled banana because I'm stupid.
Enough backstory.
In post 628, Metal Sonic wrote:I'm not liking BeardedCat's 519 - it pings me. Their hydra is incredibly good at scum, so it sounds like coaching to gain towncred.
Coaching to gain towncred? At a time when there are 0 votes on me and I'm widely townread (except for an undercurrent of worry from you and Titus because you know i'm not incompetent)? I was expecting to take flak for that post. It was blatant coaching and I was expecting people to either start worrying that we were scum together or that I was whiteknighting him. I've never seen anyone get towncred for coaching outside of a newbie game and even within it, people mistrust it. Also, given my history with scorpious where I was a
scum
IC and coached the newbies fairly evenly early on (too well, most of them obvtowned in response ), I wouldn't expect scorpious to instatrust me for it either. And if it didn't make him worried about me in spite of our history together, I expected somebody to tell him I was buddying him in case he didn't know and you did.
Anyway, from the perspective of a townie who doesn't know either of our alignments the situation could be one of these:
I'm scum and scorpious is scum too. If this were the case I would totally have just bussed him and be done with it. Even if he was the only power role/best power role on the scumteam, perhaps especially then because I'd be hoping someone would write me off as town for driving a lynch on my roleblocker/rolecop/strongman/godfather/whatever. As scum, I try to do several "why the fuck would scumPlot do that" things per game. Your response to one of those things is now in my signature on my main!
I'm scum and scorpious is town. If this were the case I don't know why I would derail the day 1 newbie lynch when the lynch of the day is probably going to be one of the other chaotic/newbie/low charisma players anyway and with those 3 categories I've just described almost everybody here and mathematically speaking I'd be putting one or more of my buddies in danger, unless I was scum together with exclusively experienced players which would be super awesome but only about a 1 in 100 chance because there aren't many experienced players in this group. And if that were the case, I still don't know why I'd care about one newbie lynch over another.
I'm town and scorpious is scum. I expect to be able to realise this as a result of my coaching because I have successfully caught scum with the unorthodox "teach them how to obvtown and then watch all the newbie town succeed while the newbie scum don't manage it" method.
I'm town and scorpious is town and I have meta reasons for believing this but I want him to be able to show the rest of the town that he's town too.
You're basically arguing that I've done this as a towncred grab when I haven't been given any towncred for it at all and I knew going into it that I was going out on a limb at serious risk to myself. You can tell that I knew that when I was writing it because of my last paragraph where I telegraphed what I was doing.
In post 519, BeardedCat wrote:I've had some success with trying to coach newer players into playing better in the past (particularly in n1603), and some failures (on my part, in open 607, I confbiased and missed some towntells in the newbie's response to my coaching), but I'm hopeful that if we goad the newer players into displaying some depth of thought they'll either be unable to because it's hard being scum when you're new, or they'll towntell, or they'll give their buddies away, or something.
1) Trying to defuse the situation and subtly create a feel of double standards with the why are people picking on Scorp's readslist but not mine line of thought.
I don't feel that it's a double standard. My readslist was unremarkable and that's why it wasn't remarked on. His readslist had problems with it. I thought it was really funny that my hydra partner made a readslists are scummy case on the same page that I had posted a readslist, but I didn't think it was a double standard. I did think that scorpious didn't know what was wrong with his readslist and why he was getting flak for it. I think that people for the most part avoid doing things they think are objectively scummy regardless of their alignments.
I used my own readslist as a comparison point. I think nobody gave me flak for my readslist because it wasn't a scummy readslist. The timing of it was fine, it let people know where I was at, I had the right number of town reads and the right number of scumreads, it wasn't a sheep of popular opinion, it was ordered town to scum to make it easy to follow, it had concise explanations for why people were where they were that I could have expounded upon if asked. There was absolutely nothing wrong or alarming about my readslist and nobody was alarmed when I posted it. It's not a double standard; my readslist was objectively not scummy. But I didn't expect someone who had written a scummy readslist to know why his readslist was scummy and why mine wasn't.
The tone of this post is very conciliatory, admittedly because of his previous IC experience with Scorp and everything. But it seems to me a little too much to offer in terms of depth and at just the right time too where Scorp has given up, especially when Bearded is not an IC in this game.
He's still my newb. It is true that I'm not the IC in this game. I wish I were IC in this game. My goal is to roll innocent child in like a large or something so I can pretend to be a scum IC. If people are obvcrumbing I'll post stuff like but if I see a newer player drowning I'll give actually good advice, too.
It seems almost designed to earn the trust of the player.
This won't work against a player whose only prior experience with me is with my scumgame.
Most suspiciously, in 532, he shows that his read on Scorp is still as scummy, claiming it's a work in progress and that he's a little less scummy (but doesn't state why).
It was almost bedtime and I hadn't read his posts in depth yet and wasn't done engaging with him. I'd moved him up to a greener shade of brown because I was liking what I was seeing so far but I wanted to actually read the posts, not just skim them before I committed to an opinion on him. I also was not sure whether he was done posting or not. I still intend to circle back to him and engage him some more but yesterday was busy for me. It was a work in progress because I hadn't gotten to it yet. I still haven't, but I will.
I'm finding it hard to believe that the coaching post would come from a town mentality towards a slot they are scumreading. The only thing I can think of is that it's a reaction test to fish for reactions from Scorp and the rest. With the way the post has been engineered and timed, I don't think it's a good reaction test on Scorp's alignment - as both scum and Town, his reaction would be the same - be grateful, and then follow the coached points.
You can call it a reaction test if you like. I think it's something like a reaction test, yes. It's a thing that I do sometimes that has worked for me in the past. I'll go find examples.
n1603 - I enter with a series of coaching type questions for every single slot in the game. It's blatant coaching. The town newbies do really well with it. The results were:
pistachi0n
started looking around outside of her
BBT
tunnel,
lostaway
obvtowned herself, I don't remember the other town newbies because this was back in May but they also did fine,
Annadog
completely and utterly failed to even pretend to scumhunt even in response to coaching. I drove a wagon on her buddy (an SE) that day and we lynched her the next day.
but this time aimed at all of the people who were having trouble scumhunting. The response was that the town newbies learned how to scumhunt and my scumbuddy completely failed in a really obvious way and I was kicking myself for the coach all the newbies idea. It was a mistake. But the newbies became better players and I won anyway (this is the only scumgame I've ever one btw) so it was worth it.
(not linking, but in twilight 6 of We Didn't Playtest This,
Titus
reached out to me when I was a flailing newbie who had no idea what to do in a large and it was her advice that helped me dig myself out of the easy newbie mislynch category.)
In n1628 I was IC so lots of coaching all around there.
open 607 - I was an uncounterclaimed mason and I did some blatant coaching of
Lalendra
. but it was a bad time for me and even though in retrospect she did obvtown in response to the coaching, I missed it and I helped mislynch her later. It's not foolproof but I think I've learned from that experience too.
I might have reached out to Bulba in WiFoM city but I don't remember. I don't think I did the coaching thing but my ISO has over 500 posts and I'm lazy.
Anyway, the point is that my coaching is a thing that I do sometimes as different alignments but I've had somewhat more luck with doing it as town given that it's backfired on me a couple times as scum because it works. The trick is in guessing what skill level a player has and then asking them to do something that will be too hard for them if they are scum, but that they will be able to do okay at if they're town.
Of course the player will respond regardless of their alignment and try to do what the experienced player asked them to, but I think town will do a better job at it than scum will. I need to think about scorpious' response some more (and actually read it instead of skim it) and it's also a reaction test in progress because I need to see how he goes on to interact with other players.
What I'm sure of is that as a result of what I've done, if he's town, everyone will know and we'll have a better reason than "he played poorly in some other game too". And if he's scum, I'm the queen of associatives so the more I can get him talking the better.
I have one completed game with him where I identified him as scum very easily. Don't think this is the case.
That's good to hear.
okay fuck this was really long again I'm sorry, but sonic and I need to hash this out.
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
Radio BeardedCat was asked: Should I defend my buddy if he uses dice tags to decide whether to hammer the IC without a claim?
Radio BeardedCat answered: In principle yes, but it is not defend but rather policybus him for information.
), I wouldn't expect scorpious to instatrust me for it either. And if it didn't make him worried about me in spite of our history together, I expected somebody to tell him I was buddying him in case he didn't know and you did.
