Blitz Queue Trial (Closed)
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Please note that we're sorting out the personnel side for listmods and so forth (right now it's looking like Equinox will handle it), and details are very much subject to change as we move forward. However, I wanted the initial portion of the test to take place without running into Christmas and give people enough time to design their preferred Blitz games.
If you're interested in the player-side discussion that helped spur this, please check out the thread here..-
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I used a term common within chess and other games signifying short time periods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_chess#Blitz
Also, there are things like "Blitz Games Studios", a children's games studio that (before they shut down) was based in England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_Games.-
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In post 15, Plotinus wrote:There's quite a few games with shorter deadlines in the mini theme queue currently. will these be moved to the blitz queue or will they remain in the mini theme queue?
Good question. This is up to their game mod I suppose, as we haven't explicitly said you can't run a short deadline game in the other queues yet.
In post 16, Rob14 wrote:Requirements for open games? Same as mini theme minus the review?
Yes, sorry. I'll add that into the FAQ. If it's anapprovedopen game, no reviewer is needed..-
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In post 47, Katsuki wrote:In post 29, zoraster wrote:Then design harder games for scum to win. Balance is fairly easy to solve as long as you recognize the limitations of town, which MS as a whole frequently forgets.
Considering how MS setups are continuing to skew towards townsided,would it be wise to suggest this harder games for scum?
As for Blitz games, towns in the past typically benefit from a fast pace for a variety of reasons. I'm curious if it will carry over to games specifically designed for a speed format.
You have said this before, and you are as wrong now as you were then -- which is very wrong..-
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In post 51, Katsuki wrote:Setups are already relatively townsided in the games that I've seen at least. There are a variety of factors that contribute to a scum-friendly meta environment, which I believe should be partially alleviated by the environmental factors of a blitz game.
Hence I'd be curious to see first how blitz games play out.
You may be right that shorter games reduce bad tendencies in towns (though I'm not sure it'll have much of an effect either way), but the idea that a setup is townsided while leading to more scum wins over a long period of time seems wrongheaded.
Anyway, you're right. shorter games will be interesting. But we probably need current data to compare it to in terms of regular deadline games..-
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Looking pretty good right now, guys, with 4 games in the queue, but it would be great to get a few more. Right now there are 2 Opens and two themes.
Considering running a large theme in that environment, which could be disastrous, but would allow me to run a larger game with fewer killing roles and still have it not take half the year..-
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In post 72, Katsuki wrote:In post 52, Ythan wrote:Dr. Katz what do you think would be a better value to represent balance or lack thereof than winrates?
I'm not a huge proponent for theoretical WRs and "EV project" so to say because they remove the psychological real world effects of certain roles, but comparing EVs to actual WRs could be a start.
TY for asking good sir.
He wasn't talking about EV. He was talking about ACTUAL win rates..-
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Right, that'd be interesting, but not really the point that's being made. The point is that we design setups (or should design setups) for the site as it exists, not as we think it should exist.
So if town is winning only 35% of games (or whatever) that's a sign that setups are SCUM sided. Sure, that may also mean that town are self-destructive and that's driving down win rates, but from a design perspective, our job isn't to expect town to suddenly start playing way better unless we have a compelling reason to think they'll do so..-
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In post 77, Katsuki wrote:In post 75, zoraster wrote:Right, that'd be interesting, but not really the point that's being made. The point is that we design setups (or should design setups) for the site as it exists, not as we think it should exist.
So if town is winning only 35% of games (or whatever) that's a sign that setups are SCUM sided. Sure, that may also mean that town are self-destructive and that's driving down win rates, but from a design perspective, our job isn't to expect town to suddenly start playing way better unless we have a compelling reason to think they'll do so.
I disagree wholeheartedly with that line of thinking. If you are catering setup designs to compensate for the poor play of a specific party then there is something wrong there. The mods job is to craft a balanced setup. If they want to control for player quality, they can do so during signups through vigorous screening, not in the setup.
what is "poor play"? I mean you have opinions, but they're opinions. Maybe you're wrong. Maybe scum are just better now. It doesn't matter what you think is optimal play in the end, it matters what the play can reasonably be expected.
It's not like we have two even teams that got together and played each other and I penalized one of them. Everyone has the same chance of being town and scum (individually, obviously you're more likely to be town).
You said a mod's job is to create a balanced setup. Yes it is. Which is what you're doing if you design a setup in the context of mafiascum. And you HAVE to. Because obviously you can't cater toward perfect play or else (a) town would always win because they're always able to find scum or (b) scum would always win because they always are perfectly good at avoiding the lynch.
Rigorous screening?? We have a site to run. Players will get better or worse over time. "Balancing a setup" by a method of only picking strong town players is absurd..-
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In post 81, Katsuki wrote:If quality were a common commodity, then you would not have "HIGH QUALITY" as a unique marketable value.
p-edit: Balancing a setup around a game full of VIs is just as absurd. Balancing for random play as oppose to balancing based on skewing for poor town play is what I'm arguing for as the role of the mod.
I'mbalancing around a game full of VIs unless you truly believe the site is all VIs now. I'm at least in theory trying to balance a game around the average player I can reasonably expect. Which is far superior to balancing around some sort of nonexistent megastar game list that always plays to their full potential at town (and not as scum).NOT.-
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But we're talking holistically here. The general goal is that 50% of all games, give or take a bit, will be won by town/scum (in two sided games). Now obviously you could achieve that by doing something absurd like mandating that 50% of games be given all sane cops and 50% of games be given 6 scum, but the basic idea is that with a 50% win rate, in any individual instance of a game, that play by both sides will determine the outcome.
In scenarios where the win rate overall is 30% town win rate, that means that town play has to be far above the norm for town to win..-
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In post 88, Katsuki wrote:In post 83, zoraster wrote:In post 81, Katsuki wrote:If quality were a common commodity, then you would not have "HIGH QUALITY" as a unique marketable value.
p-edit: Balancing a setup around a game full of VIs is just as absurd. Balancing for random play as oppose to balancing based on skewing for poor town play is what I'm arguing for as the role of the mod.
I'mbalancing around a game full of VIs unless you truly believe the site is all VIs now. I'm at least in theory trying to balance a game around the average player I can reasonably expect. Which is far superior to balancing around some sort of nonexistent megastar game list that always plays to their full potential at town (and not as scum).NOT
Isn't balancing around "average competency" something that makes more sense than "average player you can reasonably expect"?
I do not understand the distinction..-
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In post 91, Katsuki wrote:Say average competency on a sliding scale of 1-100 is 50.
Say average player you can reasonably expect has a competency of 35.
Do you balance for the 50 or the 35?
35. Why pick an arbitrary number of 50 just because my scale goes 1-100?
It's like typical US grading, right? 90 is an A, 80 is a B, 70 is a C, 60 is a D, 59 and below is an F. To be "average" success you need (just bear with me, grade inflationheads) a C, which at its lowest is a 70. Just because the scale goes 1-100, it doesn't mean 50 is suddenly the barometer for average.
Anyway, a scale is just a way of looking at things relatively. You could turn that 35 into a 50 just by recalibrating your scale. Perhaps you squish some people at the far end of competency, but unless you think competency is really multimodal, you're talking about a minute number of players and you have little actual effect on design..-
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In post 126, quadz08 wrote:Coney Island
Dear Listmod,
Please take a look at current forum names.
Love,
Zoraster.-
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In post 177, Rob14 wrote:@Admin/list mod team: Is it allowable to run a game with extremely short phases (<1 hour) in this queue?
So far as I can tell we've not made any rules about minimum deadlines. If you want to run something with 1 hour deadlines, that's okay for now, but (1) you still need to have a reviewer and (2) you still need to run your game through the queue.
If we get a lot of these games, we'll probably have to institute a rule on it though..-
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The trial is now extended until January 31st.
Does this mean the trial has been successful?
On some metrics, yes. Last playerslot census, it has roughly the same number of playerslots as Micros, Mini Normals, Mini Themes and Large themes (~50).
But on many it has not shown itself to be particularly great.
Right now, our largest queue is Newbies, which is roughly at the same level as it was in Oct. 2014. All other queues have seen reductions, none more than Large Themes (losing 97 slots since August).
Right now, it seems like we are lacking a supply of games, particularly large theme games.
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So why keep the trial running? I'm not sure what the cause of this across the board reduction is. Is it due to a very temporary decrease in supply and interest in non-Newbie queues? Or is it something that speaks to the corrosive nature of these games that reduces overall participation in mafia?
I'm not sure, but I think it's worth another 45 days to test it out.
We're still looking at the following things:
(1) Are the games of sufficient high quality that MS is offering something that other sites are not providing it?, (2) How many games were played?, (3) How often was there no mod supply?, (4) Has it affected other Queues?, (5) Was the interest in playing consistent, particularly toward the end of the trial or did it taper off?, (6) Were there a variety of games provided?, and (7) How often did people end up having to replace out of games?
At the end of the trial everyone will get a chance to weigh in. Please try the queue out! But also if you're a mod, please don't hesitate to get other types of games running..-
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In post 203, Ythan wrote:Things got less active so nuke the fast queue?
I mean yeah, people who would be playing something other than blitzesbecause they had to beforeprobably did stop playing large themes.
Well right now, we're mod limited, not player limited from appearances in Large Themes. We only had two large themes go into sign ups in November I think.
But yes, people's preferences play a role in our decision-making, but only a partial one..-
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Keep in mind that this only happens when I run a census, which is its primary weakness. I didn't run one this summer other than August 27th. It's possible that, particularly during peak Team Mafia, that we had an uptick. Theoretically you could figure this out, but it'd involve delving into every game's vote counts and what not, which is a much, much more labor intensive job..-
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Well, that's certainly something that I want to consider post trial. Even absent the blitz queue, it'd be great if people kept offering some blitz games.
Really though, and I've alluded to this before, the whole queue system needs an update. I don't want to speculate too much on what that will entail before the trial, but there will always be opportunity to run fast games, small games, big games, etc. the question is really just whether we build an entire queue around it.
Right now, my primary concern is that we're not getting enough mods. We've actually stayed steady in Newbies since 2014 (though much lower than at our peak), but we're not converting enough into mods.
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Two very good questions. Right now I want to allow games to finish and then try to assemble the data we have. I've been keeping track periodically of the player counts in both the blitz queue and elsewhere, but Equinox has also been keeping track of survey results. Once we have that, I think we can speak more intelligently. My general thought is that we'll probably develop some sort of plan, let players comment on it, then revise that plan.
The timeline is going to depend on what kind of solution we start to think is appropriate. If it's simply "put Blitz queue in" or "don't put Blitz queue in" then it probably doesn't take that long all told as we really only end up debating the merits of a Blitz-specific queue. If we want to try to rearrange the queue structure more dramatically then it increases our variables in play as well as likely increases the number of people who will feel strongly about the proposal, which will make the comment portion take longer.
Sorry I can't give a better answer than that at the moment, but hopefully it'll become clearer as we move forward..-
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One of the major problems is that it total player slots site wide decreased while the Blitz experiment was run. Slots went fromIn post 283, lane0168 wrote:Maybe there's more to it than I think, but what exactly is the problem? There's want for blitz queue. A willing list mod. What more is there? Seems like a no Brainer. Open it up and let's go502before the Blitz Queue opened to442a month after it had been opened to394two months after it had been opened. These things are complicated and perhaps there's a seasonal explanation for that, but it fits with what I believed was a risk.
One of the biggest problems we face as a site right now is getting mods. This is often a surprise for older members, but a lack of mods keeps participation down. The blitz queue, by running games that are over quickly, only exacerbates that problem. The mod supply dropped off pretty sharply during the trial. There was at least one period where there was no mod supply at all. If the queue became a permanent part of the site, I expect it would routinely run dry.
Furthermore, from what we've seen it actually decreased the number of mod sign ups across the site, though with the caveat this trend continued after the trial was run.
26 games were run in the Blitz trial over 95 days. Comparatively, on the launch of the Micro Queue, 73 games were run in the same time period. The site was in a different place 2015/2016 vs. 2012, but given Blitz games run faster than Micros on the whole, this isn't exactly something that commends it.
On the other hand, there were some bright spots for the queue. The replacement rate was (predictably) lower than normal, which I can attribute to the shorter games. There was a better variety of games than we thought there might be. Quality of games, as indicated by player surveys, was lower than other game types, but player opinions of mod performance tended to be slightly better.
The biggest thing Blitz games have going for them is that some players want them. I'm sympathetic to that, and obviously encourage any mod to run a blitz game within the theme or micro queues. But at the moment, the reason this is on ice is because while we haven't come to a solid conclusion on what to do, it's not likely to join our site as a permanent solitary queue. I think even the trial did damage to our site, and I'm not excited to further harm it..-
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What do you mean what are sign ups like now? Do you mean player slots? Or mod sign ups?In post 288, hiplop wrote:What are signups like now?
I feel like people would be nore willing to mod a game with a reliable blitz queue.
I think the trial had lots of people learn it wasnt good for them, and a bunch learn it was the kind of game they wish all games were. I think that artificially changes the reception of the games. Obviously, its a trial so people were experimenting with what worked/didnt work. I personally was more excited for blitz than non blitz games, and i think represents a sort of tonal shift in the site at large.
Most people dont have the time to properly mod a large theme that takes 4 months. Lots do for a game that takes a few weeks at the very most
The problem with what you're saying is that you might be right, but if that's true and a lot figured out it wasn't for them then we don't have enough to sustain a separate queue. If we really have a "tonal shift" toward blitz games, which I'm not sure I buy, I'd like to see mods accommodate that within the existing queue system as is allowed.
I think one thing people have a hard time with is that separating queues isn't costless. My general preference is toward consolidation of queues, not the creation of new ones. That doesn't mean I won't consider the creation of new ones, but it's unlikely..-
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I think that's a legitimate concern. Lots of players sign up without much thought to the individual mechanics of a game and assume it'll be similar to other games.
I'd probably make players acknowledge the short time limit before confirming their in. (or have them "/in. I acknowledge the short deadlines").-
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I'll do another census soon to tell you. Last I checked they were up from that lowest point.In post 293, hiplop wrote:
Yea. If they are down now too, I don't think you can say the blitz queue hurt themIn post 290, zoraster wrote:What do you mean what are sign ups like now? Do you mean player slots? Or mod sign ups?
like and also if more mods want to do blitz games, why is that a bad thing??? I'm not sure people are like "Gee, am I going to mod a large theme...or a blitz".
Blitz games are shorter. For a mod to cover the same amount of time with players he or she would need to mod several games for each mini and probably 5-6 for your average large. I do think mods substitute. Whether that's large or mini or micro or blitz, I think a mod's desire to mod can be sated..-
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There are currently 557 player slots on Mafiascum right now. This is up significantly from the low 394 as well as the 442 and 420 counts we got during the Blitz trial.In post 296, zoraster wrote:
I'll do another census soon to tell you. Last I checked they were up from that lowest point.In post 293, hiplop wrote:
Yea. If they are down now too, I don't think you can say the blitz queue hurt themIn post 290, zoraster wrote:What do you mean what are sign ups like now? Do you mean player slots? Or mod sign ups?
like and also if more mods want to do blitz games, why is that a bad thing??? I'm not sure people are like "Gee, am I going to mod a large theme...or a blitz".
Blitz games are shorter. For a mod to cover the same amount of time with players he or she would need to mod several games for each mini and probably 5-6 for your average large. I do think mods substitute. Whether that's large or mini or micro or blitz, I think a mod's desire to mod can be sated.
We're having sort of a resurgence of Mini Themes and Large Themes right now. Both are at 3 year highs..-
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- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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