Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[Muerrto]

As a general post. IMO and in my experience, people don't like being accused. I don't like it either. Basically you're calling someone a liar. That's the name of the game. But the problem is when you can't take being called a liar. If I'd ridden you non-stop since the beginning of day 1 you'd have a grievance. I've only started like 1-2 pages ago and haven't gotten mean, haven't called for a lynch, haven't insulted you. Nelly's reaction is what I usually get from new players. They're ticked you don't believe them. But I don't believe any of you and for good reason. So make me believe you. Convince me. That's mafia. The ability to somehow prove you're good and someone else is bad only with your actions and your words. It's poker, bluffing, reading people. If you raise me a ton and have a crap hand and I call I'm basically calling you a liar, right? That's the name of the game.

***************************************************************

2nd Vote Count of Day 2

Muerrto - 1 (Nelly632)
Nelly632 - 2 (vampyrusddg, Muerrto)

Not Voting:

- 7 (death_omen, Hjallti, Malchonn, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, somestrangeflea, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch

[Nelly632]

Muerrto:

You know what I am a grown man and like a grown man I can step back and accept if I am wrong... I agree with Serp that maybe my comments toward you are out of frustration and my lack of acknowledgement toward you is more then likely a way to give you less ammo to point in my direction... I cannot claim any role to anyone besides plain old townie and I felt like defending myself to you would lead me into hot water and I did not want to get lynched because I may or may not have made a stupid move at the beginning of day two...

I do agree that my actions at the start of this day may have been percived as scum like and there is nothing I can do to change that now...

I will step back now Muerrto and stop assuming you are simply attacking me... I believe you asked a question in regards to D.O and I would appriciate it if you would simply repeat this question and give me a little time to recap my post so I can once again gather the train of thought I was in when I posted...

Thank you very much

[vampyrusddg]

Okay, heres my take on the situation, and I'm convinced I'm right.

The Mafia have a roleblocker, they knew that if there is a doc in the game he would be protecting DO (no reason for them not to) so they neuter our cop while offing someone else, and lose the risk of wasting their NK.

What has me so sure about this is if DO was scum why would he bother with saying he got a fail? It would make much more sense to come out and say he got an innocent on someone he knew was town, forgoe the NK so it looks like he's got protection before they satrt NKing other people on N2. The scum knew we still had our eyes on him and we could well end up lynching our cop ourselves, and until then they can continue blocking him night after night while picking off everyone else.

Bottom line, we need to get that roleblocker. until then we've effectively lost 3 power roles, I'm hoping there is a doc so if we do catch him we've got some investigations, but if not we're going to have to do this the old fashioned way.

[Nelly632]

Okay, heres my take on the situation, and I'm convinced I'm right.

The Mafia have a

roleblocker

, they knew that if there is a doc in the game he would be protecting DO (no reason for them not to)

so they neuter our cop while offing someone else, and lose the risk of wasting their NK.

What has me so sure about this is

if DO was scum why would he bother with saying he got a fail? It would make much more sense to come out and say he got an innocent on someone he knew was town

, forgoe the NK so it looks like he's got protection before they satrt NKing other people on N2. The scum knew we still had our eyes on him and we could well end up lynching our cop ourselves, and

until then they can continue blocking him night after night

while picking off everyone else.

Bottom line, we need to get that roleblocker

. until then we've effectively lost 3 power roles, I'm hoping there is a doc so if we do catch him we've got some investigations, but if not we're going to have to do this the old fashioned way.

I agree with this 100% but how do you weed out a ROLEBLOCKER I mean it isnt like someone is going to come out and give away a tell that lets us know that he/she is a roleblocker... But honestly good observation...

[death_omen]

Theres one side we havent quite looked at and thats sanity issues, however i doubt this is the case.

As for the Nelly632 is scum ordeal, I don't think hes scum ATM however he did hammer Khel without him really being able to rc or defend himself.

I was so sure he was scum myself, now however I think we might have hit a dead end.

[VampanezeHunter]

First off sorry I haven't posted for a while I was asleep till 10:30am where I live!
Also one quick question, Do we have an SK? I'm not asking for a RC (well duh) I just wanted to know as this is my first Mini Normal!

Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.

Answers
1) MO is that D_O

is

the cop, but i'm not 100% sure i'm about that...I mean it is alot to go think of just to be cleared of being scum. But he if was scum then, I think someone already said it, why wouldn't he just say that someone is innocent?
2) I think the block is true, my last answer should explain why!
3) The hammer was horrible...not just because Khelv was a vigilante but because even if Khelv was a townie he didn't get a chance to RC. Also just because one person wants to end D1 doesn't mean that we should end!
4) The explination was nearly as bad as the hammer. Correct me if i'm wrong but giving up before lynch -3 is a bit of a trick to me trying to make us unvote Nelly and feel sorry for him. Whats more is that he tried to say that Murreto is taking something from outside of the game and bring it in here... this may sound naive but I wouldn't think that anyone would do that here at MS!

[vampyrusddg]

Nelly, we can't weed out the roleblocker, but we have to hit scum and hope we get lucky and catch the right one, thats all there is too it, there are certain signs I'll be looking out for.

Unless we get a counter-claim I'm looking on DO as confirmed (as can be without his death) town, this narrows down the field a tiny amount, after our mislynch and the NK that leaves:

Hjallti: No good read from me yet, slightly scummy but nothing major

SeraphicMirth: Has talked the townie talk but I'm yet to see any solid deduction from her yet

Malchonn: His usual fairly quiet self, havn't seen anything wrong yet, but theres not much to pick at which is suspicious in itself

Muerrto: Doing his usual job, as long as he's doing that even if he's scum he's helping us.

Plessiez: A very good player, Walking the townie walk, but could be deadly if one of the scum. I'm thinking town but keeping my eye on him

SSF: Although not the quietest in the game his posts have been generaly quite short and just dealing with one point, a game style that always bugs me because it makes it vey had to get a read on someone.

VH: if I had to guess at this second who the (more than likely) 3 scum are VH would be in there

Nelly: I'm suspicious of him for already stated reasons, I'm not going over those again

Me: Hey! It's your job to figure out what you think of me, you want me to do everything for you?

DO, sanity doesn't even come into this, wether sane or not you'd have got a result back instead of a fail, we'll cross that bridge if we manage to get you un-neutered before your, the towns, or the scums demise

[Muerrto]

Muerrto:

You know what I am a grown man and like a grown man I can step back and accept if I am wrong... I agree with Serp that maybe my comments toward you are out of frustration and my lack of acknowledgement toward you is more then likely a way to give you less ammo to point in my direction... I cannot claim any role to anyone besides plain old townie and I felt like defending myself to you would lead me into hot water and I did not want to get lynched because I may or may not have made a stupid move at the beginning of day two...

I do agree that my actions at the start of this day may have been percived as scum like and there is nothing I can do to change that now...

I will step back now Muerrto and stop assuming you are simply attacking me... I believe you asked a question in regards to D.O and I would appriciate it if you would simply repeat this question and give me a little time to recap my post so I can once again gather the train of thought I was in when I posted...

Thank you very much

All good man. Just hate to see people give up or stop playing because they take it personally. Believe me, I didn't wanna get into this because I'm gonna get blowback for doing this same thing myself in another game but like I said, I haven't attacked you anywhere near as hard as I could. I'm not calling for a lynch, but ATM I'm not removing my vote either.

Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.

[Plessiez]

Sorry guys; feel like I've been neglecting this game a bit recently. I'll try to catch up and reread properly soon, but just to make sure this isn't one of those irritating "I'm here but I've got nothing to say yet" posts, I'll take a quick look at Muerrto's questions.

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.

The cop claim ... I didn't and don't really like? Simple probability suggests we're more likely to stumble on scum on day 1 (who'd definitely consider fake claiming to avoid the lynch) than we are to almost lynch an actual cop. So I'd definitely say I'm sceptical of the claim right now, and that the burden is on death_omen to convince us. However, at the same time, it now seems clear we're not going to be getting a counter-claim today; whether that's because omen is the real cop, or because there is no real cop or because the real cop has simply decided not to claim yet we can't know, of course. But as long as omen isn't taking charge of the direction the town goes in (as he'd do if he actually claimed to have results), I'm fine with letting the question of what to do about death_omen wait until tomorrow. I'd rather we made up our mind on him then, however.

The block claim is .... weird. Not totally convinced by vampryus' theory that it points to omen being town, though I suppose I can see the argument. Basically, there seem to be three options:

1) death_omen is scum, and for whatever reason thought claiming to have no result was safer than claiming to have found an innocent result. Now, I can definitely see why scum fake claiming might do this (claiming a pro-town player as innocent would make it more likely we lynched scum, if we believed omen, and claiming a fellow scum as innocent could backfire - obviously lying about a guilty result wouldn't work today). So I definitely consider this a possibility.

2) death_omen is the real cop, and the scum have a roleblocker. Definitely the worst case scenario: makes omen basically useless to us unless we get lucky and manage to lynch the roleblocker. No reason to rule this option out.

3) death_omen is the real cop, but was blocked by a town-aligned roleblocker. Possible, I suppose, but I'd have expected the roleblocker to claim in this case, as he'd now know that omen was in fact telling the truth.

So I guess (1) or (2) are the most likely options. (3) is still possible, but I don't think it's what's happening.

I've already made my feelings on the hammer known, I think. I didn't like it. Either bad town play or scummy - not sure which. Same goes for Nelly's reasoning, I guess. (I'm also unhappy with Malchonn for putting Khel at lynch -1 so soon after the RC in the first place, and I don't think we should forget that, either).

Anyway. More and more detailed thoughts to follow in a day or so, with luck.

[Nelly632]

Muerrto:

1) The cop roleclaim to me was good and bad, in doing so Death Omen (In my eyes) has cleared his name and now I believe him to be townie... Why?

--- If he is a scum he would have no clue if there was a cop in this game or not so if he was not a cop and RC then another person came out and said "I know you are scum because I am the cop" then he would have buried himself so in my eyes to big of a risk...

--- By RC and giving us a sufficient answer in day two and with the failure for anyone to step up and claim otherwise I am left believing him...

2) I am almost convinced that there is a DOC out here who saved D.O last night and roleblocked him at the same time...

3)I will admit that now that everyone has voiced their opinion I will go with the consensus and agree that this was a bad move... At the time I didn’t see any harm in it... I was not aware that a roleclaim before someone is lynched is standard practice and no one mentioned that before my hammer... All that was said was that we should discuss the COP RC more before lynching Khelvaster... And I didn’t see a need for more discussion on this...

4) Let me try this one again... I was trying to prevent us from being placed in the same situation we were in when D.O roleclaimed... If Khelvaster roleclaimed and we all took his word for it then when would it have ended... EXAMPLE...

D.O is close to a LYNCH he roleclaims COP and we leave him alone...

Khevlvaster is close to a LYNCH he roleclaims VIGILANTE and we leave him alone...

Next we turn to Muerrto and he gets close to a lynch and he roleclaims DOC and we leave him alone...

Then we turn to Vampy and he roleclaims TOWNIE and as was pointed out before by muerrto this seems to not be a good enough RC so out of frustration we lynch him because we are sick and tired of taking RC...

Then at the end of the game it is revealed that Khelvaster & Muerrto are scum and we kick our selves in the butt for accepting there word for it... But on that same note I didn’t think of the fact that if we allow them to roleclaim and they claim a role that is held by someone else we have essentially caught them or narrowed scum down to two people, MY MISTAKE...

This is what I was thinking and it seems now that this thought process was wrong and I am sorry for Hammering before you all had a chance to discuss it..

[Hjallti]

Hjallti said:

vote: Nelly632 I can life with putting him on lynch minus 2

Please put a little more thought into your reason. A single one-line bandwagon vote doesn't look very good to me. You’re not instilling me with a true town nature.
FoS Hjallti

I did put thought in it. I think it is a bit scummy to represent that vote like this.
Before the vote I already explained that I am agreeing with the points against Nelly, but that I didn't take the trouble to spell it out. This is something totally different than saying that I didn't take the trouble to think myself. Afterwards I took Muerrto's advice to unvote, but I found it weird afterwards:

@Muerrto: Why do you ask me to unvote Nelly and didn't do it yourself? you could as well have put him back on L-3!

Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.

1. The RC is early and therefor could be counterclaimed, but it steals time in a little game like this. I think for WIFOM reasons it is just like most others things, something said that could be true or false.
2. The block-claim steals one day more. If he is scum he could have cleared a non-scum player to be town. In which case if the player is neutral he would know he is death_omen would be lying. But since that neutral might have benefit of being cleared at the time, this wouldn't have been a problem. the block claim is strange, but might be a gamble to get through the RC one day more. Then you offer a buddy, and next we know scum is in endgame.... could be dangerous. (note that I already hinted at that in post 357)
3. To fast, a scumtell because I want to see reactions during L-1 !
4. I feel bad about the hammer because Nelly himself explained it as: "if Khelvaster would roleclaim, it would be uncertain if it is true, by hammering we know its role". Well Nelly, the game is NOT about finding out everyones role as soon as possible in REAL TIME. It is about getting rid of scum as soon as possible in GAME TIME. If you think through your statement, it would be better to hammer one after the other as soon as possible, and then at the end we all know the roles. I prefer to win the game in December above loosing it and knowing how the game was in August.

[VampanezeHunter]

Just sayiing I am still here! But I don't have anything to comment on appart from that Hjallti is right about finishing in December!

[Muerrto]

@Muerrto: Why do you ask me to unvote Nelly and didn't do it yourself? you could as well have put him back on L-3!

Naw. Didn't ask you to unvote him but that might've been how you took it.

Let's hold off on any

more

votes before we hear something please.

This is deja vu

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

Today is the most important day of the game. It needs to be taken slow, and thought out carefully.

[somestrangeflea]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

[Muerrto]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspiscion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

[somestrangeflea]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspiscion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

Oh, you were working under the assumption that there were 3 scum. Make sense now, sorry!

[VampanezeHunter]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspiscion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

When you say Two mislynches, does that include the D1 lynch?

[Muerrto]

When you say Two mislynches, does that include the D1 lynch?

Yes. On day 2 we have 10 ppl, 3 scum(always 3 scum in a 12 person mini btw Flea, understand why you didn't get my figures at first tho). On day 3 we have 8 people, 3 scum. This is LYLO. On day 4 we lose. In otherwords we don't play out day 4 assuming someone dies on night 3. If we mislynch today we're stuck in LYLO for the rest of the game until we get a scum lynch unless the scum miss a kill somehow(deadline, doctor, etc.). That's why this day is the most important. It's our only chance to avoid LYLO.

[VampanezeHunter]

Thank you! I never thought of it like that!

[death_omen]

Muerrto i agree with your logic, we mislynch today we basically have done everything bad except lose, after reading I am finding SM and Malchonn more and more scummy by the minute. I have reread everything posted since d2 started and these two appeal to me very greatly.
Reasons behind this are:

1. In some strange way I think those two are linked.
2. They seem to know a lot about night time. They kinda rush to conclusions. (Post 350-353).
3. As to why deathsauce was whacked at n1, maybe its because he wanted to give Khel a chance which he said so in post (331) and the scum obviously did not want this and wanted night to intiaite pronto.

I'm going to go with my n1 investigation and my gut instinct.

Vote:Malchonn

Go ahead flame me 8)

[Muerrto]

3. As to why deathsauce was whacked at n1, maybe its because he wanted to give Khel a chance which he said so in post (331) and the scum obviously did not want this and wanted night to intiaite pronto.

I'm going to go with my n1 investigation and my gut instinct.
Vote:Malchonn

Go ahead flame me 8)

Um..glad to. You just did the same thing you did on day 1. You said you thought the scum didn't want discussion and ended the day and then voted for vote 6, the one made BEFORE Sauce's post about discussion, and not the hammer.

You also didn't answer any questions I posted regarding the hammer. In fact, the fact that you just placed a vote on Malchonn for bringing Khel to lynch -1 and didn't even list any suspiscion for Nelly at all is extremely disturbing.

I can only chalk these mistakes up to being new to the game so many times. Here's some questions that might help you bring your thoughts more in line:

1. What has Malchonn done besides the lynch -1 vote?

2. Where are the Seraph/Malchonn links?

3. What has Seraph done period that's scummy(other than the godfather misunderstanding which I think was an actual misunderstanding)?

4. Why the vote for Malchonn and not Seraph if you think they're both scummy?

5. Since your 'investigation' failed, you're plain town today. Why did you just happen to vote for the same person you investigated?

6. As I said above, why the vote for Malchonn without even a word mentioned about Nelly?


For now I'm

FoS: DO

again. This vote is not only out of the blue but these 'links', I'd love to see you show those. Besides Pless, Seraph seems to be about as close to town as you can get(assuming the godfather thing wasn't misdirection). I want some serious evidence on Seraph to back up your claim.


Now as for Malchonn, I gotta slightly agree with Vamp here, he's been alot quieter than he normally is. But then again he was quiet in our last game on the other site too due to RL stuff so I'm definitely not ready to vote him. As for lynching him for being quiet? Never a good reason. He hasn't done anything scummy yet to my eyes, just been quiet. That's not a reason to lynch.

I'd also like to know why you chose Malchonn to investigate on night 1. If for no real solid reason then you're really just flipping a coin on your vote here, right? Logic over chance please.

[death_omen]

Opps totally confused SM with Nelly please replace all of the above SM's with Nelly632.

[death_omen]

Ok answers:

1. He has lurked and he has lurked bad, he hasn't contributed much to the town at all.

2. Nelly and Malchonn are linked through the hammer of Khel d1, malchonn puts him at lynch -1 and Nelly hammers straight after saying they've discussed everything enough. By this I think he was talking to his partner more than he was actually talking to the town.

3. I'll replace SM with Nelly in this question. I have hardly any reason at all apart from vibes.

4. This is easily answered, I am much more confident of Malchonn turning out scum than Nelly being found scum.

5. Because leading up to now ever since d2 started I've started to think this guy was scum i investigated him because after a reread of d1's events he felt real scummy to me, due to the lurking and the insubstantial posts.

@ Muerrto personally: You rushed to his defence real quick, surprising...

[Muerrto]

@ Muerrto personally: You rushed to his defence real quick, surprising...

Lol reread my post. I said he's lurking just like you did. I just said I won't vote/lynch him for that.

I defended Seraph. If you replace Seraph w/Nelly I cann see some links, but not many. Altho Nelly did vote for Malchonn right off the bat then take it back as a 'test'.

Still, makes no sense to go for Malchonn instead of Nelly. Nelly hammered, and he responded to Sauce about discussion, not Malchonn.

Never defended Malchonn, he's lurking. But I think it's RL stuff cause I know him. Not lynching him for that. Never defended or cleared him tho. I defended Seraph, that was your mistake not mine.

But yeah...um I've got my vote on Nelly so I think you can see my thoughts on him from that.


Your post makes alot more sense when you accuse the right people lol

[Nelly632]

As strong as my convictions towards you are Muerrto, I must admit that your words continue to remain consistently pro town as they remained from day one... My vote was based on actions that I believe to be false as of right now, nothing you have done since my vote was cast on you has confirmed it more in my eyes but on the contrary loosen it in my eyes... Too sum it up; I would like to remove my vote toward you with a final statement...

"Either you are a sincere townie who has our interest at heart or a GREAT Mafia member who has perfected this game"

Unvote: Muerrto

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspicion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

The reason I quoted this above if because I know for a fact that I am TOWNIE and I would hate for the town to lose because of my mistake at the beginning of Day Two... There is nothing that I can do that will convince you 100 percent that I am Townie I just hope that my comments above followed by the unvote helps you lean toward believing me and preventing the quoted situation above from happening...