Newbie 442 - Game Over

[White]

How judgemental!

Vote:Snix

[White]

Fun Fun.

*puts bandage on wound caused from *family guys scary monkey with pointing finger* PETERS racism comment*

Nah kidding.

I voted you though because scum pass judgement quick and vote fast.

[White]

If you're talking to me....absolutely no.

If you didn't have Snix voting for you I would. You seem weird and are making strange deductions. But i'm not going to put you at -2 this early. Let's hear what the ICs make of you.

[White]

Actually I do have to agree somewhat with what LML said however it doesn't strike me as much as he makes it out to be.

One thing i've noticed about LML is that he comes on strong and doesn't work too well in shades of gray. It's more black and white for him. He's also logical and presents a nice case but could easily throw a wrench in the works and no one would be able to pick it out.

LML, i'm going to be cautious of you.

[White]

Wow geez guys.

Again LML, you are coming on realy strong. I read a different one of your games and you got hard on the case of another guy and he turned out to me town. Now i'd definintely suggest holding back and thinking of all possible perceptions of an actions before jumping on someone else's back.

Besides, you're an IC and it certainly looks to me that you're good at playing mafia due to your nice award. Now i've played your style before and dude, calm down with the "FREEDOM!!" -esque posts.

You get an idea and you run with it to the ends of the earth. I personally think you find me threatening because i'm calmer than you.

I don't NOT believe i'm in any way ridding the town of you because remeber, I didn't vote you. I simply said I was going to be cautious. Which is something I believe everyone should be of everyone.

Now LML, i'm not deliberately trying to get everyone to see you as a liar. That's so far off base. I feel like you want me to be scum. I am encouraging everyone to think about your posts before jumping on a bandwagon. Seriously LML, calm down and read what I say before you jump so such rash conclusions.


[quote=Peter]I really don't like how you came off as joking with your racist comment, than when I joked back you attacked me for acting weird and making strange deductions. Your whole "I'd vote on you, but... that's putting somone at -2, and that is bad even though IH just said it isn't..." rubbed me the wrong way. [/quote]

I never attacked you. I made my own joke. If you watch Family Guy you'll see that the monkey finger thing is only used in jokes. That's not an attack, it's a joke that I now see was poorly placed. So in that respect, i'm sorry for the bad joke.

I do however think you are making strange deductions but that idea has dissipated for the time being. Currently i'm most suspicious of IH and LML for seeming to jump on me. Primarily though of LML because he seems to be bandwagoning and voting me for a hardly flimsy argument ("I think you're scum because you're being cautious of me!!!"). IMO that is kinda a weak reason to put someone at -1 and then realizing that risk to me, a "Massive FoS".

LML, you've got 1 vote on you currently. I'm going to make it two because out of all the people that have talked and given stuff to work with you're the one that's taken up a flag against me the hardest and I personally don't trust your judgement because you jumped to conclusions about me and should've read what I said. I said clearly that I was going to be cautious. If being cautious is a reason to vote for someone then by golly we're screwed.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

[White]

[quote=LML]Yet you just voted me at the end of your post, huh? That's called hypocritical.[/quote]

Nope, again you're making a poor judgement call. That's called weighing my options and choosing the best one. The best one is to think about your actions, consider alternatives, the

make a choice

. Thinking about eveyrone does you no good at all unless you actually do something about it. I considered not doing anything. I didn't like it because your actions and rash judgement calls are worthy of atleast a FoS. I chose not to FoS you because you have pulled some crap and practically called me out as mafia in all forms other than a direct sentence saying so. That left me with the only choice left as a vote, which I did.

[quote=LML]I haven't told you how to play mafia, I don't expect you to tell me. I won the Paragon of Mafia Hunters (best Pro-Town player) in 2005, and Mafia Performance in 2006. Either witch way, I will not change the way I play because you tell me to. [/b]

Well sometimes expectations are broken. Tell me you've never played a game where someone you expected to be town turned out to be mafia. I'm not perfect but neither are you. Just because i'm new to the game of mafia doesn't mean i'm new to life or logic. Sometimes you'll learn the most bizarre things in the most obvious of places. Are you saying you can't learn anything or a newbie can't teach you anything?

[quote=LML]That is so OMGUS. There are so many reasons to vote you. I held off because it put you at Lynch minus one. I have documented said reasons in this post. I don't know where you've come from. Let me explain something to you. I make cases. If someone makes a better case than the one I make, I move my vote. It's how the game is played.[/quote]

Um...I don't know what OMGUS is other than Office of Military Gov't, United States. Please help me there and define OMGUS.

In your 7 lines of post I see only 1 reason which is hypocrisy. I think however I showed how I wasn't hypocritical. Please LML, show me where i've erred so I can correct my mistakes in future games. As an IC, help me here.

Show me where i've gone wrong LML! Putting someone at -1 this soon in the game really strikes me as scummy. If I do end up dying you all will see i'm just as innocent as another 'nilla townie. I would suggest lynching LML and seeing how he turns up because i'm innocent. I decided to RC because i'm at -1 and would like to play this game and search out the mafia members, one of which I think is LML.

[White]

Yet you just voted me at the end of your post, huh? That's called hypocritical.

Nope, again you're making a poor judgement call. That's called weighing my options and choosing the best one. The best one is to think about your actions, consider alternatives, the

make a choice

. Thinking about eveyrone does you no good at all unless you actually do something about it. I considered not doing anything. I didn't like it because your actions and rash judgement calls are worthy of atleast a FoS. I chose not to FoS you because you have pulled some crap and practically called me out as mafia in all forms other than a direct sentence saying so. That left me with the only choice left as a vote, which I did.

I haven't told you how to play mafia, I don't expect you to tell me. I won the Paragon of Mafia Hunters (best Pro-Town player) in 2005, and Mafia Performance in 2006. Either witch way, I will not change the way I play because you tell me to.

Well sometimes expectations are broken. Tell me you've never played a game where someone you expected to be town turned out to be mafia. I'm not perfect but neither are you. Just because i'm new to the game of mafia doesn't mean i'm new to life or logic. Sometimes you'll learn the most bizarre things in the most obvious of places. Are you saying you can't learn anything or a newbie can't teach you anything?

That is so OMGUS. There are so many reasons to vote you. I held off because it put you at Lynch minus one. I have documented said reasons in this post. I don't know where you've come from. Let me explain something to you. I make cases. If someone makes a better case than the one I make, I move my vote. It's how the game is played.

Um...I don't know what OMGUS is other than Office of Military Gov't, United States. Please help me there and define OMGUS.

In your 7 lines of post I see only 1 reason which is hypocrisy. I think however I showed how I wasn't hypocritical. Please LML, show me where i've erred so I can correct my mistakes in future games. As an IC, help me here.

Show me where i've gone wrong LML! Putting someone at -1 this soon in the game really strikes me as scummy. If I do end up dying you all will see i'm just as innocent as another 'nilla townie. I would suggest lynching LML and seeing how he turns up because i'm innocent. I decided to RC because i'm at -1 and would like to play this game and search out the mafia members, one of which I think is LML.

Sorry, had to fix tags.

[White]

I see. Then I guess I won't be able to live that one down this game. Good to know in the future. Thanks for the tips.

Heh, well as newbie i'm bound to mess up. You're right, don't lynch him after i'm gone. Just, be wary. I'd hate for him to bring another innocent down and win the game if he's mafia. If he's not mafia then gee, something's wrong in my mind.

Ok well, i'm very suspicious of LML, IH and Peter.

Still, i'd like to see what points he's refering to that make me seem so completely and incredibly scummy. I know that my one thing suggesting lynching him after me was scummy and I see that and know that's likely to kill me. However I think i've dealt with any other issues.

Peter, could you perhaps take me off the chopping block so I can deal with the charges yet to be brought up?

[White]

Ah goodness, i'm having some trouble and need to get some sleep. Sorry,

thank you Peter

for unvoting me.

I tried looking at wiki and even googled it but I didn't get anything other than the office of military gov't, US.

[White]

I'll be glad to:

It is painfully obvious that White is scum.

I see now and slightly before, that this was a joke. It really isnt' obvious to me where such a deduction would be made, so that made me think you somehow saw something in me or...I don't really know. I was thinking there was a catalyst for such a belief and I wasn't aware of it which made me suspicious. I see now that it must have been an irrelevant joke.

Haha, Is it okay if I call you honkey the rest of the game?

This I hit me blindside. You seemed to add nothing of value to the conversation and weren't direct on who you were asking the question to. I didn't see the relevence nor did I see where you would think anyone would

want

to be called "Honkey". But I believed you had a reason (that I didn't know) which again led me to think you knew something or saw something in someone that I was missing. It wasn't obvious to me so I called it strange and weird.

When I said you made a racist comment, I was playing off of Snix's joke that you assumed I was Mafia because my skin was white because my name was White(right? Still slightly confused on it). But if you'll notice there is a link, he says you're racist and I say the same. However calling someone Honkey isn't related to racism (that i'm aware, I haven't googled or anything, just going off my previous knowledge).

I see no reason why a

town

player would attempt to discredit another player based on so little. Perhaps you should now explain.

Well, I thought at the time you were scum. So I was trying to discredit your views as I expected some form of retaliation and I wanted to rest of the town to not believe whatever you said because I assumed it would all be lies if pertaining to your identity.

1) Several solid logical arguments that a player is scum.

I have yet to see any solid arguments posed against myself, but I would really like to hear what LML has to say as he seems to be the biggest candidate for my lynching.

2) Every player in the game has offered his opinion of the lynch.

This one I think i'm pretty well set in. I believe here that most people have had a chance to say something if they haven't indeed said anything yet.

3) The player role claims.

This I have done. However I think if I were scum I would have RCed Doc as that's the easiest to for scum to RC. Not to mention RCing a townie isn't really too beneficial for scum. It does align them with the town but doesn't give them too much arguing room compared with doc or cop. Not to mention RCing Doc this early this early in the game is very strategic for the mafia because the real Doc would be concerned about counter-claiming because after 1 scum is dead, the doc dies.

4) Consider any counter-claims

I don't think this one is too applicable to my situation.

You did (previously) mention that you find my hesitance confusing. I try very hard to not do or say something without thinking it through and giving it some time. I didn't want to vote for you at first because that would put you at -2 and I thought that wasn't right. In other games i've read the goal was to stay away from bandwagoning early on and many a newbie has been lynching for bandwagoning. I didn't vote for you after Snix retracted because I was then more suspicious of LML and wanted to keep my vote open. That sounds silly now because I could just unvote then vote but that's what I was thinking. Plus you were seeming less scummy as time went on and it seemed I was clawing the ground for anything.

I didn't FOS anyone because I thought it was too early for someone to FOS rather than just vote (page 1). But I didn't see enough issues with LML to vote yet. That has changed though as time has gone on.

I'd like to see what IH has to say on what's been said so far and i'd like to see if he keeps his vote on me.

[White]

Is this your first game? It is pretty common knowledge that Day One starts off with random votes. Why you came to the conclusion that I have a deeper reason is perplexing.

First game on here, not my first game ever. I wasn't commenting on your vote. I was talking about your joke about it being obvious that I was mafia.

Again... why would you arrive at that conclusion? At that point I'd contributed a random vote and a poorly received joke. Your defensiveness doesn't make sense.

Well, other than the fact that i'm a naturally defensive person. I understand if that's not buyable so let's see. I personally don't believe in coincidences. Which means you didn't just ask if I wanted to be called "Honkey" for no reason, so if there's a reason, what is it?

This... is... an amazing leap in logic.

Isn't it? But that's the only thing I can think of that explains why you might think of me as obviously mafia and it be a racist thing. I didn't make the joke, I did however play off of it.

Less than a page into Day One you assume I have determine your role by my amazing powers of deduction. Faced with such a powerful opponent you feel you must discredit me.

My role isn't really a complicated one.....um...*shrug* it's not too rare either....
Well, I thought you were mafia and so yes, you are powerful. Besides, I have no idea what powers of persuasion you possess. It only makes sense in my mind to try and discredit your biggest opponent which for me in this game (and every game really) is the mafia. If you are mafia then naturally i'm going to try and do everything I can to get you exposed and killed. I thought you were mafia.

I would personally like to see some more input from Snix, Chroma and IH. Snix seems pretty good for the most part though as he seems to be keeping up. Chroma needs to participate more but I think I read a game on here when he was the same way, very little interaction but seemed to keep up. Not as a judgement call but I think in that game he turned up mafia and was a lurkermafia. But don't quote me on that as it may very well be wrong. IH just seems to be lazy or inhibited by something because his participation is very very limited.

[White]

Pardon me!

Gee wiz! I've dealt with issues pertaining to my innocence. Now I know I can at times be long winded. But that's just me. Don't attack me for being who I am dude. Besides, I said, and I QUOTE, "But don't quote me on that as it may very well be wrong." EXPLICITELY for the purpose of detering any such extravagant accusations. I didn't know for sure and STATED THAT.

Going off of your few posts this one seems way off tempo so i'm going to put a FoS on you.

FoS: Chromagnum

[White]

Newbies please answer this question. Do you think being agrressive is scummy?

Well you as an IC should know there's no blanket answer for so broad a question. I personally feel however that it depends on the individual. If you're asking for how I feel about you and LML, yes I do feel there is some scumminess there. There is a level of agression that is indeed scummy. I think that level is different depending on the person and you've got to feel out the person before you make a judgement call.

1.Interesting you find the ICs scummiest

Well IH, first off this dismisses completely the possibility of both IC's being scum. It's entirely possible even though not probable. Do you deny that both IC's can be scum? I think I read someone there's a 30-ish percent chance of it being just that. But again, dont' take my word because my memory is very selective.

2.Would you refute my point on you then?

In the above 5 lines of your post I found it very difficult to find this point that you mention. Please restate it for me and i'll be glad to refute.

3.How much do you think LML actually believes what he is saying, especially since he didn't leave you at lynch -1?

Well, I think he believes atleast some of what he's saying because not only is he acting on it but he is also seemingly indignant when confronted which suggests a deep seated belief in what he's saying. But remember, i'm not him so I don't know for sure, these are only my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you IH, I did actually (believe it or not) find out how to quote properly as you'll see in my future posts.

In other words you omgus voted him. You voted him because he attacked you, which is not a valid argument.

I can see where you would feel this way because you only read the part of me saying he practically called me mafia. However if you looked alittle harder you would have seen me mention crap in the same sentence. I simply stated it as crap because didn't want to go into a post by post analysis of this crap.

I find this slightly pointless, and just trying to shoot LML down. Granted LML was bragging a bit, but I mean, I don't think he was talking down to you. I think he was scoffing you for suggesting his play is wrong.

I am sorry you feel that way. I did not suggest he played wrong, I suggested simply that anyone can learn anything at all from anywhere. That's not rude but rather informative for those that have forgotten. For you to point out that you feel this is pointless is strange to me though, if you just felt it was so pointless why did you feel the need to comment on it? Why not just ignore it as White's longwinded fluff?

not Wikipedia, the Mafia Wiki.................No. If you are town this is the wrong mindset. You never want to discredit someone for invalid reasons. You want to attack their arguments, refute their arguments, but not just attack the player themselves.

Where can I find this mafia wiki?

Well, I guess I don't understand. If you discredit someone, then the town won't take them seriously and if they're mafia they are powerless...isn't that the goal? I know that it's really effective. What's wrong with refuting their arguments and discrediting them as a whole?

Guys some of you criticize me for not 'contributing" but I only get around 1 time to respond, and thats after work, at 5:00. I am working around real life guys. I am not "lazy" I am not "inhibited" but I do have "a life".

Technically you are inhibited by work but I was just wanting to know the particular circumstances of my fellow players. You gave a perfectly valid reason and i'm happy. I wasn't trying to criticize you at all and i'm sorry for helping you to think that.

IH, overall your post strikes me as very confrontational and quite anti-White. You said yourself to refute the arguments but then you make a post that has an unkind overtone to it.

I'd also like to know

why

you are voting for me because you have yet to tell me and i'd like to know so I can get to refuting.

[White]

Wrong. Aggressiveness is not scummy. Not inherently. Aggressiveness is a good way of producing reactions. if you can tell me why you disagree in a logical way it would be nice.

Well, i've seen both sides, I've seen the Mafia be very agressive and confrontational. To say if you're agressive you're not mafia seems, wrong to me. Perhaps I misunderstand, do you mean to say that if you're agressive, you're

not

mafia?

If the mafia is very agressive they can actually look very pro-town because they look like they are combing the desert and the seas for the mafia when in reality the scum are just Hiding in Plain Sight. I'll explain this later on.

I did not say that, and was not dismissing it, but I found it interesting. It was something of note for later.

It certainly looked like a dismissal to me. If nothing more it was atleast an attempt to discredit the possibility of both IC's being scum.

I really don't like how you came off as joking with your racist comment, than when I joked back you attacked me for acting weird and making strange deductions. Your whole "I'd vote on you, but... that's putting somone at -2, and that is bad even though IH just said it isn't..." rubbed me the wrong way.

I would find the first comment enough for slightly better than a random vote.

I dealt with this already in post 40. Do you have any new stuff? You also said it was worthy of slightly more than a random vote. Do you still think this or no or what?

But clearly it is irriational indignation. Look at it, it even looked like you had a "wtf" attitude at one point. That is the point of that type of play.
Similar playstyles are Cogito Ergo Sum and The fritzler.

Ok, first off i'm not tooooo sure I understand this so correct me if i'm wrong. Are you saying his indignation is irrational? Because it's not, he feels his arguments are flawless and when someone confronts them he takes it as a personal affront to his ability to think logically. It did make me think "wth" because it's very loud and bombastic (imo) and can be quote overwhelming to try and deal with. I have no idea who Cognito Ergo Sum and The fritzler are.....

Ok then. Why do you think he's scum if it's not because he's attacking you?

-017-

Makes a nonrandom vote half way through page 1. Seems absurd as though he knows first off who is scum and who isn't and isn't afraid to lynch those he knows aren't scum. He also makes a plea for authority with his reasoning but doesn't explain which I think he should have done if he were trying to help the town because then the town can agree but the town consists mainly of newbs who don't know the lingo.

-028-

He first off insults my intelligence and prides himself. When in reality everyone should be cautious of everyone at all times, not just in select situations. That and we should also be more cautious of people that know what they're doing such as a self proclaimed "Smooth Operator". He says I don't want the town to believe what he says but that's because of my flawed playstyle which i'm trying to correct. But again is a "i'm a fellow townie and i'm going to find you out" statement. Finally with his 4th line be makes a 3rd "i'm a townie" statement. Seems very overdone to me.

-032-

Insults me as a person rather than refutes my argument. Not trying to find scum but rather attacking me as a person, you accuse me of looking scummy when I do it, I think he looks scummy when he does it. Then says he's got many reasons to vote me but doesn't list more than one which happens to be an attack on me as a person rather than my arguments. So imo, he lies.

If you don't understand what he's doing, then it's going to be hard for him to learn something from you.

Just because I don't understand him that well doesn't mean he doesn't understand me (which it seems he thinks he does). He can learn plenty from other people and to say otherwise is just BS.

Now, if I misunderstand you, and you mean discredit his arguments instead of just generally discrediting him, then that is correct, but you should not just undermine his argument. You need to respond to it head on.

No, i'm talking discredit him as a person

and

refute his arguments.

I don't understand how I come off unkind. Clearly you've not been in a heated argument on this site. (If I'm being unking I'll call you a moron, or something)

No no no, that would be openly unkind. I said it had an unkind overtone which means there isn't any exact evidence that can be pointed out and said, "Look HERE and you can see that he called me an moron, therefore he was unkind". But rather that the whole post overall came off with an (intended or not) zing at me. But I think i'll let this one drop as i've been known to be hypersensitive to this sort of thing. Besides, it's not something anyone can use as evidence to one side or the other.

"rolling over" isn't exactly a strong defense.

Help me out here but I did make a mistake, there really is no defence for what I did. I messed up. I actually stated that I didn't think I would be able to live that down for the rest of this game. Chroma, are you reading my posts? I can't defend my action, however if that's all you're going to go off of to vote me then I would be concerned about your innocence. Seems to me like you're beating a dead horse, but maybe i'm wrong.

IH, I have noticed one other thing, why are you defending LML? I think he's a very capable person of defending himself, he may even enjoy it.

[White]

Thus, someone is bound to perceive an action as "aggressive." Yet, by the nature of this game, players HAVE to play that way. Remember how incredibly defensive you got from the very first post in this game?

I do believe I was pretty lighthearted at the beginning actually. But nevertheless I did get defensive. I do think i've said i'm a pretty defensive person by nature but isn't that the standard reaction? Someone is agressive and then the receiving party then get's defensive? Isn't the goal to be able to walk the line of too defensive and not defensive at all? If someone isnt' defensive at all isn't that scummy because they assume they're safe because they've got a scum buddy that won't vote them?

I also find it very interesting that you insist upon evidence. Twice now you've asked for specific reasons why we find your behavior so scummy. Yet... nearly every post has that information.

Yes, I believe it's got evidence against me because i've been asking for it. I feel as though everyone is really on edge with me and if I make one more mistake i'll be lynched. I am really looking for why you guys feel this way. When I am asking for evidence i'm asking for

more

evidence. Because I still feel as though you guys are waiting for me to slip up so you can lynch me and I'm innocent, I want to find the bad guys just as much as all of you but you guys are focusing in the wrong direction if you're thinking i'm mafia.

So far you have claimed to be "calm, patient, and non-agressive." You appear to be hot tempered, vote quickly as a reaction, and content to press other players.

Gee....I don't remember saying all of those in any sentence nor do I remember saying I was non-agressive. Can you point out where you quoted that from? I do realize I can by hot tempered but generally I only get that way when I feel there is some unjustice being dealt to me. I understand your suspicions on me because of my suggestion to lynch LML but if that's all you're got then...why are you guys all so suspicious of me? I actually held off my vote on you because I didn't want to put you in risk of being quicklynched until I was sure. I only voted for LML after two of his three posts that I mentioned in -056-. I don't think that's "vot[ing] quickly as a reaction". I am content to press others because I know that's what's got to be done. This isn't my first game ever. In fact if you're

not

content to press others I think there's a problem.

Help me out where i'm messing up though as it seems i'm messing up somewhere and something isn't getting dealt with. What is it?

[White]

Hm, well alright. I'd like to thank mainly Peter and IH for a lot of help in improving my playstyle. Now i'm going to try and start anew and go from there.

UnFoS: All
Unvote: LML

Well since random vote-ness is the call of the night... I've never been one for noise... sooooo.,,,

Vote: Loudmouth

This strikes me a tad here, if you don't like the noise of random voting...why do you vote randomly? Or do you have a reason for voting someone that's not spoken in the thread yet?

unvote
FoS: White

In your previous post you say you see LML as scummy but then for no reason you unvote him,

don't even

FoS

him and FoS me, I can understand that FoS.

FoS: Chromagnum

can we vote against moderators?

This stuck out to my on my third read through. Reading http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0 and LML jumps huge on the case of GameShark for making a joke similar to what asian did. I'm not sure if this just slipped past the radar or what but this is also something that a scum in another game of mine did. Vote for the Mod.

Something that also sticks out to me is that that's his/her only post on this thread total. It's been over 65 hours since they've posted and i'd personally like an explaination. I do recall that it's a rule to express on the thread that if you'll be absent for over 48 hours you should tell the other players.

This to me may just me laziness as there is an extreme lack of substance to go off of so I won't even give a FoS.

Something about your opening posts strike me as

Mafia Buddying Up

to the town.

This here serves (in my mind) two purposes. It discredits the intent of any helpful advice from an IC as it makes me believe LML will jump on you and call you out to being scum when the intent of the IC in a newbie game is to win but also to

help

the newbies.

Unvote, Vote: White

This and all of post 28 serve no purpose other than White bashing. He votes me but gives no reason and attacks me as a person. He then unvotes me next post which leads me to believe he wasn't researching what he was saying but rather just saying what comes to mind, which turned out to be nothing of substance.

Yet you just voted me at the end of your post, huh? That's called hypocritical.

Another personal jab with no meaning to it. He also doesn't refute what I say but rather just insults me.

This to me seems worthy of a heavy FoS but nothing more. I would still like to see some of the "so many reasons to vote" me. That's asking LML, the others of you have helped me out just fine.

Massive FoS: LoudmouthLee

Better?

[White]

Uh...thanks?

Did you really mean suggesting the town lynch LML??? At this early stage... where most haven't had the opportunity to really dig into the weeds... that's about as scummy a tell as you can get.

When I said that I meant just that, that the town lynch LML after I was lynched. I understand now that that was scummy and have apologized. I fully expect it to be brought up again and again though.

However I fail to see how that's an argument for why you shouldn't vote LML....I see that's an argument for not hammering him but...when that was said he was only at -2. He was fine. I guess i'm just having a hard time seeing it so please explain to me how this is a reason to aquit him of suspicion.

EPWODP, I said earlier that LML's post about buddying up served two purposes but only listed one, the other purpose is a reason for voting.

[White]

No, you misunderstand. First off I want others to look in his direction because I think he's scum and want his actions to be brought to light so others can make their own decisions.

Secondly, that part of the conversation was focusing on why you unvoted LML and didn't even FoS him. You said you gave an explaination but when I asked for clarification you dont' give it. Please show me how your statement,

"Did you really mean suggesting the town lynch LML??? At this early stage... where most haven't had the opportunity to really dig into the weeds... that's about as scummy a tell as you can get."

aquits LML of suspicion.

[White]

Well, you said he seemed scummy but again and again pass up the oppurtunity to show this with a simply FoS.

I'm going to be VERY busy (10a-11p) for the next 5 days but i'll try and get on in the mornings to see what's going on. If I miss a day or two, it's because i'm at college.

[White]

Being agressive is a "null tell", or a tell that doesn't indicate anything. Town are agressive. Scum are agressive. So attacking LML for being Agressive is a bad case.

Ah ok, thank you for clarifying that. Noted and i'll try to not do that again.

White it means nothing unless the IC's become confirmed. That is the point for which it should be noted.

There's no way to confirm fully unless that person dies. Isn't this a game of speculation?

White it means nothing unless the IC's become confirmed. That is the point for which it should be noted.

Then i'm going to politely ask you to change your vote to a FoS. I believe i've got 2 Massive FoS's and 2 votes and the other person is absent from the thread.

This is a personal judgement that you have assessed of him.

You're right, my bad. Sorry LML.

I'll bet CES and Fritzler got lynched alot in their beginning games. Is that play style really even that effective?

How is a nonrandom vote on page 1 scummy (other than supposed to much info)?

I guess in pretty much every game i've read, page 1 is for random votes as there's really no way to learn enough to substantiate a real relevant vote on page 1. I was just going off of what he had and that struck me.

do you mean he made an appeal to authority, and he shouldn't have done that? He should have explained.... something if he wanted to help the town, because the town doesn't know what they're agreeing too?

He made an appeal to authority and should've explained the reference. It seemed to me as though it were an attempt to start an early bandwagon because THIS one had evidence behind it. He seems to want to start a bandwagon but doesn't really give what's needed for others to jump on board with him because he doesn't explain what Mafia Buddying Up is. Thinking about it now seems that perhaps he started a wagon intending for no one to follow because he was just distancing.

"If you're scum you need to be cautious of me, cause I'm gonna catch you"
He also said, in a roundabout way, that you're just refusing to listen to him.

Yeah, that just strikes me as trying too hard to be protown. I highly doubt the validity of it because that assumes (here I am assuming again, so correct me if i'm wrong) that he catches all the mafia when he's town in all his newbie games. That's just impossible so it looks to me like an overt lie. I do acknowledge that I have been quite unresponsive to his methods of teaching though.

Errr, I don't see how he insulted you as a person in this post.

He said I was hypocritical. I don't see what this has to do with finding scum, nor do I see where it refutes any arguments nor do I even see how this can be interpreted any other way other than a personal jab.

White I think you're blowing things out of proportion in your head, or else you just don't understand how to read this type of post.

Well, I would prefer for it to be the latter but as i've said, I am somewhat hypersensitive (erg, I hate that word) so perhaps it's all in my head. I doubt it though.

He could hypothetically learn something, but I'm unsure if he will from posts like these. (no offense)

None taken.

You do not discredit someone as a person ever. That is a logical fallacy (as I stated)

Actually you said why you shouldn't do it singularily. I actually remember asking why you can't discredit the person AND refute their arguments at the same time but you never replied. I would still like to know.

Glad to see you LML.

[White]

I see. Well, I wasn't being hypocritical. I explained why and you ignored it.

Not only that but you still haven't addressed the "so many reasons" that there are to vote me.

What are the "so many reasons" to vote White???

Because of the fact that you could have answered this and added input to the game and asked some questions, perhaps given your opinion on some stuff. But instead you didn't, i'm going to vote you.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

[White]

EDWOPD: Correction, because of the aforementioned

and

my previous reasons that I chronicled on a former post, I am voting you.

[White]

Post 77 by White is an OMGUS vote.

I disagree. I said I was voting for him because he hasn't dealt with any of the points I brought up against him and thereby draws my suspicion.

If you don't like it, I suggest you avoid me in all future games.

This is exactly what i'm going to do. I find it very hard to see your points and deal with you rationally.

IH, surely you can realize how playing the role of "useful adviser" is a great scum cover.

I completely agree with this point. It's a great cover especially when playing with newbies.

[White]

I voted LML after he posted because I was giving him time to respond to my arguments brought against him. I thought it would be unfair to simply vote him without giving him a chance to defend himself. He didn't defend himself so I voted for him.

IH, I think Peter is just trying to bring it to attention for the rest of us Newbs to think about....I could of course be wrong but when he said it, that's what I thought.

[White]

Alright well, in the interest of seeking mafia and trying to keep up relations i'm willing to start anew.

I'll go ahead and re-read the game too just to get a feeling of how things are going and i'll go from there with you. Are you by any chance Aspergers?

Unvote: LML

[White]

Why must you assume there's something wrong with me?

What in the world? I don't man! Having Aspergers is a way for me to understand what's going on. It's a mental condition, not a

problem

.

For the rest of you, Apergers is a mental condition that makes it hard for the owner of the mind to see things other than black and white, all or nothing. I have it and it also means we fight for what we believe in very hard and tend to be very logical.

LML, I was simply curious, if I didn't ask i'd never know man.

Now i'm just curious here, in the beginning you were hard and adamant like usual but....now you're being all...victimy...it's just strange. LML, who do you think is the most suspicious person atm?

I have read most of the game and geez, thank you all for not lynching me right off the bat because I asked for it.

[White]

LML, i've been thinking about your offer and i'd really like to know something.

You seemed to bandwagon me at the beginning. Now i'm not offended or anything but just thinking, you voted me to put me at -3 but then as the bandwagon lost steam....you offered a fresh start. Now this as a whole seems to be great.

But what were your motives? I know you said, "If you are pro-town (as I know that I am), I think we're both probably doing the town a major disservice here." which works for me but you never ever gave me those reasons for why you voted me.

Now i'm not going to rail on that case but to give you a fresh start and just

ignore

your previous posts would be incredibly stupid.

So i'm not going to FoS you or anything but

what were your reasons for voting me earlier??

IH, what do you think of LML's kind proposal to me?

[White]

Why do you keep deferring to IH?

There is another IC, you appear to just not like him. At this point in the game, I find it puzzling that you accept one's word at face value and reject the other's.

Because he's the other most experienced player and I think he'd know more about LML's tendancies than any of the newbies. Peter, what do

you

think of his proposal?

What? If I didn't ask, I'd never know! Man, you sure are sensitive if you take that as an insult.

I didn't take it as an insult, it seemed to me that LML took it the wrong way. It was a simple inquiry that he seemed to take as a personal "What's wrong with you" thing. I wanted to clarify my intentions.

Cheeky seems to me to really just not care about the game, I think if he got on here and posted something more about the game i'd be more suspicious about him being a lurker mafia but it just seems like he doesn't care.

LML, will you PLEASE answer my question? It's really not that hard!

[White]

I don't know what information you could hope to gain from any of those scenarios that you couldn't gain from doing your own homework

Because no matter how much homework I do I can't get other peoples reactions to something unless either they volunteer them or they are requested of them. Now i'm requesting of the most experienced person and the one more likely to know LML or his play style.

Am I to give you a free pass for everything you've done?

No, absolutely not. I don't want a free pass at all. You offered a chance to start from scratch, that means to me to drop the votes but I completely believe there should be explanations where they weren't given previously. Now LML you're testing my patience, give me some darn reasons or gosh i'm going to have to vote you. Starting anew means I dropped my vote and started a new case from then on, based

from when we started anew

you have deliberately

refused

and ignored my inquiry for VERY SIMPLE DATA. Now if you feel so opposed to giving me reasons for why you voted me early on then give me reasons for NOT giving me reasons for why you voted me early on.

White has been so damn confontational with me

Oh? Do you mind your own "play style" being used against you? You love to be all confrontational but should I shoot your words back in your face?

I do come on strong. I put people's backs to the wall.

ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION!!

Vote: C-L-A as he/she/it has not posted a single bit of content in this game.

This here is very true, i'm not sure where they think they can be so neutral and get off with it but I still don't think it's worthy of a vote because they may have no idea what's going on and just not care and lynching them just for not caring seems to be a mistake to me. I'd rather lynch the right person (mafia) rather than a person that doesn't care and could very easily be a townie.

Now, i'd like to apologize right up front as i'm sure most of this post looks very agressive, insulting and confrontational. I'm in a sour mood as my life is really falling apart. It feels good to vent some so LML, i'm sorry if this came across rude. I'm sorry for using you as a punching bag, I just needed to get some of that out, please forgive me.

[White]

Seeing as Cheeky as made two posts recently with absolutely no content whatsoever i'm going to FoS him/her because that's enough time. Besides, if I were to get on LML's case for having the chance to respond to something and not doing so and ignore Cheeky for doing the same thing that would be hypocritical.

FoS: CLA

I'm sorry CLA but i'm not going to defend you anymore, just give us something to work with!

CLA we know you exist, give us your input on what's happened.

Btw, the post above just knocked up my suspicions on CLA, seems to me like CLA does care atleast a little bit as this time CLA told us he's/she's alive. No content though.

[White]

(if anyone could confirm this...) That's the line that makes me most worried..

I think he was asking more for just everyone's ideas. Oh well, FoS as you wish.

Snix, there is no way for someone to be able to come up with a percentage that i'm scum vs town as each of my posts can look scummy to one person and town to another.

Heavy FoS: CLA

Man, contribute your

thoughts

on what's been happening. You can't say there's nothing to talk about 6 pages into the day. There's no excuse. Not to mention you haven't explained your absenses(sp?) or reasons for disappearing. If you don't start adding some real ideas or something (other than fluff) then...man, i've got no clue.

I think Snix is right, before we lynch him we should hope for a replacement because there is the chance that CLA just doesn't know how to play and refuses to learn.

FoS: LML

Just give me those reasons man, come on, there were so many before, what were they and where'd they go?

Snix and Peter, what do you two think about LML's consistently ignoring my request for what his "so many reasons" to vote me where?

[White]

Oh, well there're 2 scum and 5 protown so there's a 2/7 chance (28.57%) i'm scum. Even as basic as that is I may have screwed it up so take it or leave it.

Also, Meme didn't cast anyone specifically, it was all random I believe.

[White]

Well, that's why i'm abstaining from voting personally, hopefully the FoS's and votes will pressure CLA.

Wow.....*stunned*

Mod, please prod Chromagnum. He hasn't posted since the 19th

Had NO idea that much time had passed, college makes the days move.

[White]

Wow MeMe to the rescue, you're right on top of things today! Kudos.

Snix, what's your take on Peter? Scummy? Not so scummy? Let's get some convo rolling.

[White]

I skipped 3 years of school :p. 2 of them were HS. Ha.

[White]

Yeah I was too. I could've finished if I really applied myself at 13. But I was lazy and waited till 16.

[White]

IH, what're your thoughts on CLA?

[White]

I wasn't using it as an argument, just number crunching (if I can even call it that).

Is the lack of a FoS/vote then just lack of forethought or any thought?

[White]

Ah ok.

So are you going to FoS or what? If you're fine with a vote then....?

Sorry if I sound hasty i'm just pretty pissed for reasons that don't pertain to anything any of you have to deal with so i'll try and calm it.

[White]

CLA we know you exist, give us your input on what's happened.

CLA, please read the previous pages and deal with the content that pertains to you.

1. you don't have enough evidence against me

Actually a complete lack of evidence is reason for extreme suspicion this far into the game. It means either you're lurking or are active but aren't adding anything which is as good as lurking. You've done both. Not to mention you're not really the person to decide if there's enough evidence against you. Besides, who in their right mind would say, "You're right, there's enough evidence against me, i'm a good candidate for lynching, lynch me."?

2. Lets lynch with purpose

Besides being something of a restate of the previous reason this one makes no sense to me. Any lynch is always with purpose. Even OMGUS votes/lynches are purposeful. The reason you look like such a prime candidate for lynching is because you look like a lurker, the purpose of lynching you then would be to eliminate a lurking mafia because mafia are, with rare exception, much more likely to lurk than an innocent protown role.

CLA:

1) Are you innocent?
2) Have you been busy a lot recently so far as to prevent you from posting on here or have you been around and just not seen any reason to post?
3) You have a vote on Peter, why?
4) Is Peter the most suspicious person from your perspective?
5) What do you think of my blunders in the beginning of this game?

[White]

Nooo, Bah! Sorry Chroma! Was really hoping to play more with you, been good so far, hope you the best with work and RL. Thanks for the heads up.

[White]

Ok, so we've got 6 people that are leaning heavily toward a CLA lynch.

He's got until 08-26-2007 05:20 GMT before needing to be prodded and then if he doesn't make any contributions with his next prod-picking-up post(s) then i'm voting him.

Posted:

Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:03 pm

Post subject: 129

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FoS Cheeky.

If nothing of substance comes

within 24 hours

you can count on me for a third vote.

[My bolds]

Do you still feel this way Peter? Or are you going to wait with me and give CLA

another undeserved

chance?

[White]

EDWOPD Sorry, CLA has until 08-26-2007 06:16 GMT (Early Sun Morn for USA'ers).

Mod, please prod LoudmouthLee.

[White]

"probably"?

Vote: CLA

[White]

Thank you all for seeing this!

CLA, your job is to convince us why

not

to vote you, not give us ammo.

If your internet was bad than just say, "My internet is really bad, sorry guys". Not give us some crap "not everyone has good internet". Just say it plainly man.

Voting Snix just to put someone else at -2 is....just...please, never ever do that again. That's lynchable in and of itself unless it's pg 1, but it's pg 8....

[White]

Gotcha, thanks.

Unvote
Vote: Cheeky-little-asian

I don't think MeMe is like that but that also means LML's vote wouldn't count. However MeMe did count his vote. I like MeMe.

[White]

I did what I could to convince the others not to vote me. Evidently something got into their heads because i'm still here so....idk take what you want from that.

Um...do you understand that by trying to be different you now look...super scummy?

No lynch, 7 alive, night 1. 2 scum, 5 protown.
1 dies via night kill, 6 alive, day 2. 2 scum, 4 protown.
Must lynch scum today or we lose (2 scum, 3 protown, they night kill and it's tie, mafia wins).

Lynch today, 6 alive, night 1. Hopefully 1 scum, 5 protown. If you're clean then there're still 2 scum and 4 protown.
Night kill, 5 alive. 1-2 scum, 4-3 protown.
Must lynch scum today if you're not scum or we lose (2 scum, 2 town, no need for night)
If mislynch and you're scum today (as I suspect you to be) then there will be one more day. 1 scum, 2 protown.

Either way, day 2 needs a scum lynch unless we get one today. Sounds to me like you're vying for a no lynch, why not just vote for it then?

Btw, I asked if you were innocent as a trick question, which you promptly blew.

[White]

Whoa whoa hold your horses. Thank you all for not voting me right off the bat.

LML, I can understand why you'd claim to investigate me based on Day 1, but i'm just a 'nilla townie. I suspected you all along of being mafia and now I know for sure. There are no decietfilled roles in C-9.

Now of course you're also going to claim me because you know i'm the most suspicious looking of all the town from Day 1. This is also why I wasn't NKed. Because I seem to have covered for the mafia with all my mess ups during Day 1. Why would the mafia kill someone that's shielded them for the most part?

LML, there has been no suspicion thrown toward yourself and yet you claim. There's been no suspicion thrown on me and yet you claim. Not only this but notice how your scum buddy didn't join you in voting me. Also notice, fellow townies, that i've not been lynched yet. If LML isn't scum then I should be dead because of the two other mafia. But i'm not dead.

LML, answer my question from Day 1,

what were the so many reasons to vote me early Day 1?

It makes sense you would jump on me after suspicion was shown in my direction early Day 1 because you were hoping for a quicklych. You almost got it too.

In light of this idea that you are mafia it also seems appearent why you jumped on CLA so quickly. You knew he wasn't mafia and you picked up the smallest suspicion and lead the town to lynching him. I held off my vote, I wouldn't do this if I were mafia.

Because of the evidence stated above and the knowledge that i'll need another townie to vote you before you get lynched i'm willing to vote you. That is coupled with the knowledge that you false role claimed a cop to try and get me killed which establishes you as mafia because i'm innocent.

I've stated a case against LML and i'm calling him Mafia. I'd like to see LML's case against me and let's hope it's stronger than a premature false role claim.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

I hope you can all see how this isn't OMGUS.

[White]

Personally i'm pretty suspicious of IH as LML's scum buddy. They never opposed each other once except in the beginning with a joke vote which is a known distancing technique (vote your scum buddy early on so you can say you voted for him). In addition, IH defended LML when he wasn't around.

It also makes sense that those two are scum buddies because IH is the only person that hasn't posted yet and naturally LML's scum buddy would try and get others to believe in LML's RC and lynch me.

Notice how just after Peter votes me IH jumps and makes it a bandwagon with hardly a valid reason. Then 2 posts later with post 28 LML jumps on the bandwagon but see's his error on putting me at -1 so early and catches that he'd be very suspicious so he retracts his vote. Then in his VERY NEXT post he calls me hypocritical and OMGUS's me for OMGUSing him. He puts me at -1 in the middle of PAGE 2!! Page 2.

Then he carry's the Kill White torch for pages until he then offers a fresh start but continues to ignore my request for all the reasons to vote me. I believe the fresh start manuever was a way to try and get out of my question for further information and a way to neglect his blunders and personal vendetta against me by making him look like the big man.

Notice that with me at -1 so early it's very likely that the other scum would've hammered had he either been a newbie or had he not been voting me already. This key juncture was the thing that made me stop thinking Peter was scum, because he then unvoted me.

IH's next post then defends LML, attacks my arguments and attempts to discredit someone who defends me (Snix). Not only this but he also doesn't remove his vote from me even though I addressed the reason he voted for me.

I can see these two being scum partners more than anyone else.

I would ask you all, if i'm scum, who's my scumbuddy?

[White]

LML, deal with my accusations? If you can diffuse the issues brought against you then you'll be sure to win the town to your side.

But as I see above you've said nothing but "Come on guys! We need one townie vote and Snix or Peter are the only ones that can do it before I win this game!"

You have dealt with nothing and added nothing new. But instead you ignored the points I brought against you and didn't defend yourself from the points brought against you by others.

Right now you're just digging a hole for yourself because you've gotta get the other two protown peeps to vote and you're not allieviating any of their concerns.

I do agree with LML on one thing though, if we have a doc

please do not come out

.

LML, stop dogding questions and deal with the stuff brought against you! Stop making plea's to emotion and stop attacking when you can't even defend yourself!

Your first two posts on Day 2 included "thank god" twice. You've not said that every before in this game. You make it sound like this commendable thing when in reality you either got lucky or are mafia.

Deal with the stuff brought against you LML! You can't, because you've messed up and don't have an explanation. But when you look at it from my perspective everything fits. I messed up in the beginning and you are mafia with IH.

LML!! WHO IS MY SCUM BUDDY??? Since you proclaim to know i'm guilty then why don't you help the town and get as much information out of today as you can? What do you lose? Rather what possibly do you gain by speeding through today? You gain the game because you know i'm town. If you were really town you'd want to find out who the other scum was today so you could lynch him tomorrow, not speed through today and possibly lose the doc tomorrow. That's not at all protown.

[White]

Who's my scum buddy? I'm innocent and you're handing this game to LML.

LML, spell out those cop breadcrumbs for me. I'd like to see them.
I could just as easily claim Cop and claim IH is scum right? Or claim to be Doc and I protected Peter right? No, i'm innocent but i'm just a townie.

Snix, if you're more inclined to follow him, why don't you wait until more information has been presented? Why hurry the day along with only a "more inclined" vote?

[White]

Well, scum wins.

[White]

It was fun to play with you all and this was overall I think a good game. I learned quite a bit. Thanks for the helpful tips and I look forward to playing with you all at some other point.

Kudos on winning a townie or two over to your side LML, I really didn't think you had that strong an argument and you still didn't deal with any of the issues I brought up against you but it seems my blunders in the beginning ultimately killed me in the end.

[White]

I think you're right. I really was thinking an IH LML scum team and Peter really made me think he was clean until he hammered me. Looking back on it now it all fits better if he was scum and you were scum.

I think i've got some of this down so if you're ok with it I wouldn't mind meeting you in another game some day. Is that a problem LML?

[White]

Yeah you did lol, but no worries. That's what newbie games are for. I think i'd suggest butting your head in some more and joining in the game more as this time you spend a lot of time on the edges of the game.