481 - Speed 1: Romeo and Juliet Mafia - Game Over!

[Stewie]

Ahh, didn't even see this go into day.

[Stewie]

Ahh, didn't even see this go into day.

[Stewie]

so lurk?

how can you possibly gather information without asking questions?

you know, the more i look at it and think about it, saying "good luck" really is a strange thing to do

in the other two games that you have played on this site, you never said good luck when you joined

its true, "good luck" is usually something you would say to an opponent.

I'm sorry, I must have missed your question... or question mark.... Can you point out where in these three useless posts where it would be?

I'm not saying you should lurk. But I am saying that if you're going ot post, make it constructive.

my final points regarding discussion:

1)

theres more than one way to gather information

2) you have your way, i have my way

That, coupled with vague posts which don't seem helpful at all, gives me enough reason to

vote: logicticus

PS: thanks mods for waiting up... I really didn't notice that this game had started, and I did look for it which makes it weirder still.

[poppinpuffin]

Hey guys, moving today.

Will try for a nice post summing up my opinions tonight.

[xyzzy]

Reading further on down, I see that my argument is basically the same as Kinetic's... hmm. However, I must point out that what he's saying is a bit useful... if you're scum, I'll take his actions as bussing.

This confuses me a little bit. It sounds like you're saying you agree with me. Then it sounds like you're saying that the very argument is scummy...

Are you saying you yourself are scummy?

I'm lost. If you could clarify I would be very appreciative.

I agreed with your first paragraph and disagreed with the last.

That would've been easily noticeable if you weren't looknig for anything to call me scummy over. I'm beginning to agree with the wagon on you...

[Kinetic]

Reading further on down, I see that my argument is basically the same as Kinetic's... hmm. However, I must point out that what he's saying is a bit useful... if you're scum, I'll take his actions as bussing.

This confuses me a little bit. It sounds like you're saying you agree with me. Then it sounds like you're saying that the very argument is scummy...

Are you saying you yourself are scummy?

I'm lost. If you could clarify I would be very appreciative.

I agreed with your first paragraph and disagreed with the last.

That would've been easily noticeable if you weren't looknig for anything to call me scummy over. I'm beginning to agree with the wagon on you...

Xyzzy, I think you're misunderstanding me. I really didn't understand what you were saying.... I think I figured out where it was thought that confused me:

Reading further on down, I see that my argument is basically the same as Kinetic's... hmm. However, I must point out that what he's saying is a bit useful... if you're scum, I'll take his actions as bussing.

I thought that the comma right after 'if you're scum' was actually a period, and read your comment like this:

Reading further on down, I see that my argument is basically the same as Kinetic's... hmm. However, I must point out that what he's saying is a bit useful... if you're scum.

Which sounds a lot like you were calling yourself scummy, which was confusing to me since I didn't understand. Since I have figured out why I was confused, and now I understand, I'm sorry for calling you scummy... I wasn't looking for a way to call you scummy, in fact I really didn't think I did call you scummy. I was just confused and asking for a clarification and was trying to explain my confusion to you.

[AutumnEvenings]

It is day 1.

12 players remain: Brutal Assassin, Dragon Phoenix, Jimmy R, Kinetic, Mert, PoppinPuffin, Stewie, kravhen, logicticus, schismatized, somestrangeflea, xyzzy.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

4 votes for Kinetic (Brutal Assassin, Dragon Phoenix, Mert, Jimmy R)
2 votes for logicticus (Kinetic, Stewie)
2 votes for Jimmy R (xyzzy, PoppinPuffin)
1 vote for Mert (schismatized)
1 vote for kravhen (kravhen)

2 players have not voted: logicticus, somestrangeflea.

Inactivity check in a minute

[AutumnEvenings]

Schismatized

has about 9.5 hours to go before being modkilled.

Krahven

has 40 minutes in which to post before being modkilled.

Modkilling makes mods sad.

[kravhen]

ooh

Unvote

To kill my own bandwagon on myself.

Meant to post here earlier today but it must've slipped my mind

[AutumnEvenings]

You're safe by 9 minutes.

[schismatized]

Here

unvote

Just got back. Im looking at kinetic/logictus a little more closely and i will vote a little later.

Oh BTW thx mods for the grace periods

[Stewie]

Reading further on down, I see that my argument is basically the same as Kinetic's... hmm.

Yeah, pretty much.

[kravhen]

I'll redo a read later, but I have to say something on the Kinetic good luck affair. I feel no serious conclusion can be drawn from it. Some say its something you say to an opponent, but if he's town he might be addressing mafia, right? And different people have different habbits. I used to play soccer and we said goodluck to each other before the game. Yknow, so our teammates dont get injured, miss shots, etc.

After the first person pointed out the goodluck slip, I feel others may have jumped too fast/easily on it to make Kinetic look more scummy on purpose.

[Kinetic]

I can gather information by talking to a donkey in the middle of the Arizona Desert. I can get a lot of great information too. However just because its a way of gathering information doesn't mean its correct, will gain anything useful, or generally helpful to the TOWN.

Well, I find it very audacious of you to:

1) claim that there is only one way to gather information

Ummm, when did I say that?

Granted, you never straight out said it, but in post 41 you quoted some posts of mine and asked where the question mark is. This seems to be implying if its not a question, its not a way to gather information, hence only one way to do it.

Here is the post RIGHT before the one you are responding to:

so lurk?

how can you possibly gather information without asking questions?

I was responding to your assertion that you needed to ask questions to gain information. I kindly pointed out you have not actually even asked any questions.

Are you now saying that because I asked you why you weren't asking questions, in reply to you saying you needed to ask questions, you are now faulting on me for thinking you had to ask questions for your way of gathering information?

I think you are trying to double-talk your way out a jam here, and I also think that you realize this and are trying to place the blame on me.

SCUMSCUMSCUMDIESCUMDIE!!!

2) that you have any idea how i gather information

And I have never said I knew 'how' you gather information, only that what you have been doing so far is distracting and anti-town.

No, I believe what I did was patronize you because your way is wrong,

Sheesh, you admit you dont know how I am gathering information, but you are just certain that I am wrong. And you did this in the same post. How can you possibly be certain that what I am doing is wrong if you have no idea what I am doing?

I can be sure that I know your way is wrong based solely on your inability to produce any results from your observations. I'm pretty sure you are not actually gathering any information for the town's good, and are in fact trying to find a way to insinuate yourself into the game while still flying under the radar.

In addition, the posts that you have made are completely useless for the town and are generally attempts to deflect suspicion from yourself. If you ARE gathering information, you better divulge some of it now or else I have no choice but to believe you are scum.

I have never said how I gather, I just said I do things other than answer questions.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions and guesses about how I play and in doing that you have been overfocusing on me.

Exactly, you are evasive, never answer direct questions when asked, create posts that are useless and often against the towns interests, and overall are not helping the town in anyway. Sounds like I understand you perfectly...

You have no idea.

I think I have quite an idea actually.

[logicticus]

I will fullly admit I was wrong and for some reason I never reread that part to realize where you were coming from. You werent trying to imply that you can only get info from asking questions, it was in response to me. So I was wrong there, but I ascertain that you have no idea how I play this game and just because you dont see anything day 1 doesnt mean you wont ever.

And if I am flying under the radar, thats new. I am doing everything but flying under the radar.

If I had information that I had gathered, for some reason I doubt you would be convinced not to vote for me. You will be on my ass until one of us dies, so I dont feel the need to submit to your demands.

[poppinpuffin]

Hey guys.
Thoughts:

logicticus, In a game where no one knows who is on their team, everyone could be your opponent.

hmm, somewhat valid point. although if you are scum you know exactly who is on your team. and then you would be wishing good luck to your opponents who are the majority of the rest of the players


and i havent jumped on any bandwagon. do you see me voting for you right now? im just getting more information

This is a ridiculous post, sorry to say. Having played as both scum and town in chat games, I know that even then when you are typing fast and not thinking as much, nobody would say anything that obviously a shout out to scum. Honestly I think that either you a pretending to accuse to get reactions or that you are accusing on really baseless grounds.

----------------

Wait... you weren't just joking around? Wow...

Since I actually have to defend myself from this...

I've been playing competitive games for roughly, I don't know... my whole life. Soccer, Starcraft, Warcraft III, etc etc. It has always been good manners, at least to me, to wish everyone luck and hope that they all have a good time. Its basically a habit to me, and one I really don't feel like stopping because you think its scummy BA.

Heck, you're a gamer too, I would think something like that wouldn't be such a major thing. It seems scummy to me that you would point out something innocuous like that and jump on it.

That, in particular, is why I pointed it out actually. Being a competitive gamer, I've gone to say "Good luck" in threads at the start dozens of times and have stopped myself for the sole reason that it sounds scummy. Caught myself about to push submit a few times.

As for the last paragraph, it is Day 1, scrutinizing little comments is how we start the scum-finding process.

Also, completely agree with this^ D1 is the time to jump at shadows and make mountains out of molehills because shadows and molehills are all thatwe have unless someone makes a mistake and wears their I'm A SCUMzorz shirt to work.

-----------------

Unrelated to MS but

Sorry, I don't believe in opinions or each person's own way.

Thats pretty facist of you.

Sounds like something my boyfriend would say.

-----------------

I should rephrase: I don't believe in hiding behind unsupported opinions and ending a conversation just by saying 'its my opinion and I'm allowed to have it'. No, you are not.

I agree completely. Too many people like to just block away any kind of argument by saying " I got my opinion, you got yours, let's both shut up now ". That's just lazy and avoiding conversation. If you really believe your opinion is right you should really be able to defend it. Or else people would just blurt out completely pointless and random opinions and just say "My opinion G!" and end it.



Pigs can fly. My opinion, stfu all.

QFT

-----------------

Also,

... We still have 6 days left. This blatant bandwagoning is just a scum trick to try and not make them look scummy for doing an obvious town roll. If you let this go on the scum will just bandwagon every townie by starting a bandwagon and once it is 3-4 people full will say everyone not on it is scummy.

This is ridiculous and counter productive...

True, we have a deadline, but for cripes sake it is still 6 days away. You don't get a prize for lynching someone 5 days before deadline. And just because someone says its scummy not to bandwagon at this point doesn't make it so!

Not every bandwagon has to end in a lynch to be useful. In fact, bandwagons are very useful, especially in later game analysis. I think that even with the deadline approaching, it is not such a threat that normal discussion acquision tactics can't be used (double negs ROCK). Maybe if deadline was tomorrow, we'd need to do some quick thinking... don't jump the gun and make a mistake we'd regret. Or maybe you wouldn't regret it...

-----------------

It's an obvious argument and if you don't get it you're stupid. (Okay, not stupid, but, you know.)

His argument is equivilant to the argument that "God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, hence, God is Ray Charles."

He's saying that since some scum-hunting methods are good, and that all scum hunting methods are scum hunting methods, his MUST be good. I was merely putting it in terms of set theory, where if:

A is a member of set B and
A is a member of set C
set B is not necessarily the same set as set C.

That's the crap logic he was using, and I believe that's 3 ways I've explained it now. If you don't understand now, than you really are stupid.

Actually you've explained a mathematical concept 3 times now, but unfortunately for your argument, that concept has no application whatsoever to the situation you are trying to categorize.

In other words:

Alright, I get what you are saying.

I guess I was just confused because you are completely wrong and I dont think you have been reading the posts correctly.

-------------------

Dear Mert and DP, please explain your votes. I realize that is extremely annoying to you guys to actually take responsibility for your actions, however I'm not going to sit down and let you keep your cards in your hand so when the lynch happens you can fall back on

lies

your convenient stories about how you were just going with the flow.

I'm not the one who is going to look like scum after you lynch me, you are, and you're going to have to explain your actions either now or later. I would hope you can explain them now so I can at least defend against your accusations while I am still around. If you do not at least do this much I will be forced to believe you actually are scum. I don't think you are right now, but I am starting to get concerned by your flippant attitudes.

OK now I think this post looks like a panicking scum to me. "Oh my God people are voting for me and I don't like it so I will throw a hissy fit and hope that they will unvote in worry that they will look scummy to the other players." People don't usually look scummy after a mislynch when they form opinions on a player who looks scummy. If you are indeed town, it's your responsibility to look town, not our responsibility to trust you.

somestrangeflea

Wow....

Ok, I would really like to know these "obvious reasons"!

This is insane. BA says that I look scummy for saying good luck and everyone jumps on the bandwagon with absolutely no conversation? This is so completely anti-town play, and there are more players doing so than there are scum, so I have no idea what is going on...

I cannot imagine this type of play being pro-town...

Again more panicking and tantrum-ing. Looking more and more suspicious by the minute my friend. Finally topped off with the angry scum post:

I'd prefer to know your "obvious" reasons for voting me before I put my self out there anymore. I think I've been more than fair, I've explained myself to the best of my ability and have been actively trying to find scum. I have been trying to use logic and reason to do so, but when I'm being counter attacked by random scum-diggory all because a scary looming deadline, well I really don't think I can defend myself.

I'll agree, we need to lynch someone, and I agree we don't have a lot of time, but if the best reason you have (and consequently the only one I've heard) is because I said good luck... How can I defend that? I've already explained my actions, but how is that not enough?

And on top of that I'm being compounded and expected to dig myself out, but I honestly have NO IDEA what I'm being attacked with... Its completely absurd, and I'm beginning to think if I'm going to be fighting this uphill battle all game, then lynch me now and be done with it. But as long as I'm in the game I'm going to demand to know why. If you cannot defend your actions, then you should evaluate your self and see if your actions are even worth defending.

"Fine. If you don't believe me then lynch me. See if I care. Poo heads."
Basically I agree with Brutal Assassin's post 94.



Sorry about not giving thoughts for so long, it's moving week here at the Becca household and everything she owns must be transported 10 miles in a Ford Focus.


/sleeps.

[poppinpuffin]

Upon re-reading that post I realized just how scummy I think Kinetic is.

unvote
vote: Kinetic

Go ahead and give me a reason to doubt myself, I'm always willing to reconsider. But right now, I like that vote placement.

[Brutal Assassin]

^^^ Basically exactly the overview I was going to post of Kinetic. Thanks for saving me some typing and checking in lol

[Stewie]

poppinpuffin: your argument seems to revolve around Kinetic "panicking." Is there a reason in particular why you think that this panic is more likely scum panic than townie panic?

[Brutal Assassin]

I've got the answer for that, but will let Poppin give an explanation (which will probably be the same anyways, at this rate)

[Kinetic]

Hey guys.
Thoughts:

logicticus, In a game where no one knows who is on their team, everyone could be your opponent.

hmm, somewhat valid point. although if you are scum you know exactly who is on your team. and then you would be wishing good luck to your opponents who are the majority of the rest of the players


and i havent jumped on any bandwagon. do you see me voting for you right now? im just getting more information

This is a ridiculous post, sorry to say. Having played as both scum and town in chat games, I know that even then when you are typing fast and not thinking as much, nobody would say anything that obviously a shout out to scum. Honestly I think that either you a pretending to accuse to get reactions or that you are accusing on really baseless grounds.

That's basically my entire argument against my lynch... it seems like a stupid idea blown out of proportion, and since we are deadlined everyone just jumps on with little/no discussion because they're scared of either looking scummy or no lynch...

-----------------

Also,

... We still have 6 days left. This blatant bandwagoning is just a scum trick to try and not make them look scummy for doing an obvious town roll. If you let this go on the scum will just bandwagon every townie by starting a bandwagon and once it is 3-4 people full will say everyone not on it is scummy.

This is ridiculous and counter productive...

True, we have a deadline, but for cripes sake it is still 6 days away. You don't get a prize for lynching someone 5 days before deadline. And just because someone says its scummy not to bandwagon at this point doesn't make it so!

Not every bandwagon has to end in a lynch to be useful. In fact, bandwagons are very useful, especially in later game analysis. I think that even with the deadline approaching, it is not such a threat that normal discussion acquision tactics can't be used (double negs ROCK). Maybe if deadline was tomorrow, we'd need to do some quick thinking... don't jump the gun and make a mistake we'd regret. Or maybe you wouldn't regret it...

Which is why I'm so concerned about this bandwagon... it seems like no one is stopping and advocating slowing down and looking at the facts but me. And I can't make these arguments because no matter what argument I make it looks scummy because I'm trying to defend myself...

-------------------

Dear Mert and DP, please explain your votes. I realize that is extremely annoying to you guys to actually take responsibility for your actions, however I'm not going to sit down and let you keep your cards in your hand so when the lynch happens you can fall back on

lies

your convenient stories about how you were just going with the flow.

I'm not the one who is going to look like scum after you lynch me, you are, and you're going to have to explain your actions either now or later. I would hope you can explain them now so I can at least defend against your accusations while I am still around. If you do not at least do this much I will be forced to believe you actually are scum. I don't think you are right now, but I am starting to get concerned by your flippant attitudes.

OK now I think this post looks like a panicking scum to me. "Oh my God people are voting for me and I don't like it so I will throw a hissy fit and hope that they will unvote in worry that they will look scummy to the other players." People don't usually look scummy after a mislynch when they form opinions on a player who looks scummy. If you are indeed town, it's your responsibility to look town, not our responsibility to trust you.

I don't remember asking them to Unvote (Although yes that is my end game...), but I do remember asking them to explain why they voted... It's hard to defend my actions when I don't know what to defend. At that point the only argument against me was I said "good luck", which you yourself point out is a baseless argument.

Maybe I am panicking, I didn't think about it that way, but I guess that could be right. But I could be panicking all the same whether I'm town or scum... I don't want to get lynched... I think since its getting closer and closer to that possibility that I would at least like something to defend against instead of just laying back and dying...

somestrangeflea

Wow....

Ok, I would really like to know these "obvious reasons"!

This is insane. BA says that I look scummy for saying good luck and everyone jumps on the bandwagon with absolutely no conversation? This is so completely anti-town play, and there are more players doing so than there are scum, so I have no idea what is going on...

I cannot imagine this type of play being pro-town...

Again more panicking and tantrum-ing. Looking more and more suspicious by the minute my friend. Finally topped off with the angry scum post:

If you look at the timestamps, I literally refreshed the page after my post before this one and this post my somestrange was there as well, which added to my anxiety. I keep hearing that the reasons for the votes are obvious, but except for you and BA, all I see is people bandwagoning with absolutely no explanation. And EVEN if those people are town, without explaining their actions they are acting in an anti-town way. I'm not even talking about lynching me, but if even one of the "no explanation" votes is not scum, then they are helping give the scum a free pass to vote and lynch without discussion. That hurts the town in the end.

I'd prefer to know your "obvious" reasons for voting me before I put my self out there anymore. I think I've been more than fair, I've explained myself to the best of my ability and have been actively trying to find scum. I have been trying to use logic and reason to do so, but when I'm being counter attacked by random scum-diggory all because a scary looming deadline, well I really don't think I can defend myself.

I'll agree, we need to lynch someone, and I agree we don't have a lot of time, but if the best reason you have (and consequently the only one I've heard) is because I said good luck... How can I defend that? I've already explained my actions, but how is that not enough?

And on top of that I'm being compounded and expected to dig myself out, but I honestly have NO IDEA what I'm being attacked with... Its completely absurd, and I'm beginning to think if I'm going to be fighting this uphill battle all game, then lynch me now and be done with it. But as long as I'm in the game I'm going to demand to know why. If you cannot defend your actions, then you should evaluate your self and see if your actions are even worth defending.

"Fine. If you don't believe me then lynch me. See if I care. Poo heads."
Basically I agree with Brutal Assassin's post 94.



Sorry about not giving thoughts for so long, it's moving week here at the Becca household and everything she owns must be transported 10 miles in a Ford Focus.


/sleeps.

[/quote]

Take a look at my profile. Now look when this is all happening. Its my 21st Birthday and I was spending time dealing with this crap, and at that point I was just at the end of my rope. I didn't want to continue to spend my time doing this defending when all that happens is my very defense then becomes the reason for more people to vote me. So yes, I was frustrated and finally just gave up with that. I'll respond to people who want to actually make an argument against me, but I'm finished fighting no-explanation votes. Its like trying to kick a wave back into the ocean. If I get lynched with no explanation votes then it doesn't help the town in any way.

At the VERY least, if there is discussion people can be held accountable for their role in this lynch after its over. And if I am doomed to die, then I would at least hope that those responsible are forced to explain their actions. I would PREFER they do so now, so they can't fall back on "Well I believed what BA said" and all that, because at least I can defend myself now.

So yes. I am going to prod all those people who vote without explaining, because their actions, no matter what side they be on, are hurting the town.

[Kinetic]

I will fullly admit I was wrong and for some reason I never reread that part to realize where you were coming from. You werent trying to imply that you can only get info from asking questions, it was in response to me. So I was wrong there, but I ascertain that you have no idea how I play this game and just because you dont see anything day 1 doesnt mean you wont ever.

And if I am flying under the radar, thats new. I am doing everything but flying under the radar.

If I had information that I had gathered, for some reason I doubt you would be convinced not to vote for me. You will be on my ass until one of us dies, so I dont feel the need to submit to your demands.

Well since we're all admitting things, I'll admit this is the first post you've made that might make me think you're not scum.

I do believe I said you were trying to fly under the radar. In this game you must post once every 24 hours and your first couple posts were small and useless. Ever since I called you out on that, you have no choice but to respond. So what I said still applies. Trying and succeeding are two different things.

As for your last paragraph, all I can say is try me. At this point I'm pretty sure I'm dead, so I'd at least like to try and get as much accomplished before the town mislynches me. Maybe I can stumble upon something useful while they're all focused on me so when they reread they can use it to help find scum.

[Kinetic]

I've got the answer for that, but will let Poppin give an explanation (which will probably be the same anyways, at this rate)

10$ says his answer is that scum are more likely to panic because there are less of them and they have a more survivor role.

[Dragon Phoenix]

This is as good as it gets on day one without even a night's actions to start with. The bandwagon was rather random, but I like the results. Kinetic's reactions are to my taste far too overblown for a regular townie, who should know when to take one on the chin for the town. A townie lynch on day one is statistically the most likely outcome and hardly the end of the world. For scum on the other hand to have one of them lynched on day one is a very bad start.

[Brutal Assassin]

I've got the answer for that, but will let Poppin give an explanation (which will probably be the same anyways, at this rate)

10$ says his answer is that scum are more likely to panic because there are less of them and they have a more survivor role.

Don't insult my intellegence.