and
Mini 471: End.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Vote: Pickemfor trying to quicklynch the town.
andFOS: Adelfor purposely avoiding interaction with him.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^^Under that logic:
FOS: Adel, Pickem, Sir Tornado, and Me
andFOS: Me X 4for the above list of FOS's
If I've been counting correctly, I should have one Finger Of Suspicion left to point.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Ok, it's mildly serious time, guys.
Pickem, I will unvote you if you can make a single post without caps lock.
FinalFos: ABRfor dropping the third vote on Adel. If we lynch her now, we don't get any diagrams later.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Ok, let's just go back over his posts:Patrick wrote:CTD is scum in this game, I'm pretty sure of it.
Vote: CrashTextDummie
Sounds scummy as hell to me.CTD wrote:Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Wait... what? Our fountain exploded? Ok, guys, no need to look for the Mafia now, we'sa going after the terrists.
[/off-topic]
@Kravhen: Yes, it was time to get serious. I saw three votes on Adel in a row and smelled scum (even though BZ's was already there). The fact that you turned around and calledmescum for being suspicious of a third vote being placed under stupid meta-game reasons hardly seems pro-town. Not liking early wagons =/= scum.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Pssst,Mod, I've seen other Mods edit their votecounts into the top post no matter who's it is. If you really want Top of Page Vote Counts, feel free to piggyback.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Lying scum, nobody can actually make sense of her diagrams, we just stare at them until the drugs take over.SirT wrote: (I find her diagrams very useful, I might add)
@Kravhen: Ihateit when people do scummy stuff to see how others would react because I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that they were actually doing scummy stuff for the sake of doing scummy stuff.
"Act, react, but don't act for a reaction."
-Me,Mini 471, post 59Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Adel, I think your math is just a tad off. The highest you ever had was 4 votes. L-2 is 5.
However, the basic principle holds. I'm perfectly comfortable with jokes flying around the first two pages, and if somebody happens to accrue 2 or 3 votes because they're good at chess, no big deal. But when I see three votes on the same person in three posts in a row, I can't help but comment. I'm not calling Kravhen out as scum here, but it's little things like that which snowball into real discussion.
Now that he has calmed down, I willUnvotePickem. He also gets a cookie.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Villiage Idiot. A player so out of touch with strategy, grammar, and decorum that it is almost impossible to get a good tell or opinion out of them. They tend to lurk and every so often post an unexplained vote or cryptic sentence. (Not in the BabyJesus style, in a bad way)Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Camisade: VI is an unofficial term coined by me to describe a horrible player. I have written volumes on the pros and cons of lynching them in other threads, you might even consider me an expert on the matter. Let's just hope I don't have to exercise my expertise here.
@ABR:
1)Quicklynches rarely happen, but they are often attempted. Botched quicklynches are usually the germ for D1 discussion.
2)I would probably say the vote was mildly anti-town because it wasn't helpful and was possibly harmful, but that doesn't mean it was malicous.
However
@Kravhen: Firstly, chill, dude. Secondly, I don't think you should be the one calling attention to the ways people are reacting, because I have never seen somebody get so defensive so fast. I also don't get why you continue to claim that your vote was valid. You voted her because she has confusing diagrams and I was uneasy about a bandwagon. Now you're trying to spin it off as a "valid" vote, and that's what really irks me. If your vote was stupid, say it was stupid, but I agree with Adel when she says that you're tying to turn this wagon into something more serious than it deserves to be.
@Adel: I agree largely with your analysis, but leave the threats behind. We all know you're an expert at wagoning townies and getting killed N1. I don't really think that's the kind of record you should be using to intimidate folks.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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The first part of that sentence covers the second part of your post. The second part of the sentence covers the first part of your post (confusing I know). My unease had nothing to do with the fact that Adel was being voted, I'm just uneasy with early wagons in general. If you had had 4 votes, I would have mentioned it too.I wrote: You voted her because she has confusing diagrams and I was uneasy about a bandwagon.
If you can't see where you're being defensive/losing your cool:
Do I really have to explain why that's defensive? I would be fine if it hewed closely to the logical side of thangs, but its full of repetition, emphasis by way of capitalization, and unnecesary superlatives. It smacks of "appeal to emotion" and you sound like you're under brutal attack, which in my eyes, you really aren't. The last part is just silly.kravhen wrote:
Here you are trying to put FULL responsibility on me for whatever happens to you. It takes SEVEN votes to lynch you, you only have FOUR. Do you realize that out of those four votes, if you take out all the random and silly voting, only mine stays as a "valid vote"? If I was in your spot I wouldn't get too nervous if you were town because of that. Besides, if the random voters keep their vote on you, you still need THREE more votes to get lynched. I really don't see this happening anytime soon.Adel wrote:
Here he is trying to relieve himself of responsibility when I turn up town.kravhen wrote:@Nabakov: I see where you're coming from, and to be honest, I didn't previously post after 100% analyzing the situation.
Once again, you are making my blowing my vote out of proportions and making it look horribly outrageous. I did not put the hammering vote on you. I also did not put you at Lynch -1. I put a fourth out of seven vote on you. And not any kind of fourth vote. This fourth vote is really the first valid one after 3 bandwagon votes. So just because there was a silly bandwagon i was supposed to not vote for you, or wait until the bandwagon dissapears before doing so? No way a silly bandwagon's getting in the way of my gut feeling that picked something up about you and made me drop one little valid vote.Adel wrote:
When silly & random voting yields a bandwagon, there is something fishy going on. Placing a forth vote on someone on page two means that you are awfully willing to see a quicklynch based upon two or three posts from most people. How could you possibly be confident of someone's alignment on page two? Oh, that is right, if you are mafia than you know everyone else's alignment.kravhen wrote:I just read the thread, noticed people suddenly get all serious after having made equally "stupid meta-game moves" and not get serious until a specific person gets targeted, and then both of them turning the attention to someone else... Meh, at the very least, I wanted to see how you guys were going to react.
Don't get me wrong though, if there was a 6-vote bandwagon on you, I wouldn't have voted. 6-vote bandwagon is ridiculous though.
If there was a 5-vote bandwagon, I probably would've had a bit of a hard time putting you at Lynch-1. Dont know what I would've done if that happened.
My move may have been reckless and unusually offensive especially for page 2, but hey, at least I'm getting responses/results I wanted out of it. At least now you know, Adel, that you are under my loop. Weigh carefully every word you speak as they are going to be analyzed letter by letter. Be paranoid.Adel wrote:
With a vote that wasn't based upon solid analysis, on a player that said "what is with this wagon?". Page 2 is still randomness, yet you are willing to not only hop onto a silly wagon, but you are also willing to try to turn it serious and deadly, while avoiding responsibility for it.kravhen wrote:My vote's staying on Adel for now, my gut feeling is still there, and if you ever get nervous about 4 votes on Adel, well there are a couple of others that can take out their votes on her ( votes under "stupid metagame reasons" ) mine's staying.
unvote Albert B. Rampage vote:kravhenShow"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^^ Oh, I guess roughly the same principles apply. There's no need to go about FOS'ing people who are town (remember, this is my perspective on the matter), but I don't see it as part of a scummy master plan. Being FOS'd every so often keeps me on my toes. I'm not reading Kravhen as particuarlly anti-town at the moment, but I don't think he's being pro-town either. His over-defense seems more newbie than scummy.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Here's what I don't like about Adel's "birthday post."
Adel has proven that she has a tendancy to wagon townies when she's playing as town. This is an unfortunate tendancy, but it seems to be an essential element to her townie playstyle. That shedidn'tbus Krave into oblivion indicates a change in playstyle. Hopefully, this is a permanent improvement in her townie playstyle, but it's just as likely that her playstyle change stems from having an anti-town role as opposed to a pro-town role.
@Kravhen: While I admire the spunk that your choosen playstyle shows, remember that it is always the job of a responsible townie to weigh all options. I'm not sure if I want to be playing with a kamikaze. It could just be a cover to get away with scummy acts, but even if it isn't, I don't know how pro-town it is.
@Adel: I look forward to reading that LML quote in context.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^^ No... it's from the newbie. Unless he's said essentially the same thing in two games.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Vote: Blue Zebra
Not funny, not helpful. Stop lurking in plain sight.
ABR, same deal.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Every thread needs some central conflict for people to discuss. Discussion just lagged because we diffused the conflict like civilized folks rather than lynching rashly. Now nobody's dead, but there are plenty of posts on record to examine for playstyle elements, tells, and associations. As they say, long days are good for the town.
I willUnvote, Vote: DeadScilentbecause she has said even less (just a random vote). I will go one step further by actually giving her a topic and asking her to comment on who she feels is most scummy at this point.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Sir T: I do feel you misrepresented Kravhen a bit in your analysis. You took everything he said to the extreme and said that he contradicted himself several times just because he threw out multiple therories. As much as his request for a focus elsewhere seems scummy, I feel he has a bit of a point, and I'm becoming more and more suspicious of the poeple who now seem too intent on making Kravhen look scummy.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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OK, I will agree that a hole is being dug, and that Kravhen may actually be the one doing it, but Adel is the one standing by the side in sunglasses with a shotgun in case Kravhen tries to stop. I think BZ has a point when he notes that Kravhen's only real offense was placing the fourth vote on Adel and trying to defend it. Was that fairly scummy? Of course, I was the first to comment on it. However, Adel has now latched on to it and blown the issue out of proportion. The argument has reached a point where the arguments and rebuttals themselves are the primary things being analyzed, and the actual actions have been completely forgotten. When an argument reaches that point, it's time for it to die.Adel wrote:Display all posts by kravhen, and read through them. It looks to me like he is digging a hole for himself, and that is the most charitable interpretation I can give his behavior . My vote for you is more of a presuure vote than anything. The only decent scumtell I have on you is your vote for pickem and then your unexplained unvote.
As to the issue of BZ being scum, I can only post a firm Hmm... I almost posted an "I'd like to see more content out of him," but then I realized that he does post content, but in short, concise doses. Iwouldlike to get better aquianted with his playstyle before lableing his play however.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Outing cop = NoNo. Please keep all speculations on pro-town powerroles to yourself, thank you.
With that aside, I think you make some very good points in that post. I would like to have a re-read and a re-look at Sir T. I would also like Pickem to make good on his word and commence the beatings.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Sir T: Mabye you don't vote until you're fairly certain, or maybe you just don't vote until enough other people are certain enough for you to comfortably follow along. Restricting yourself to late votes seems like scum trying to blend in or a townie who can't be bothered to make his own cases.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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So you adopt a moderately scummy playstyle so you can use it as town and scum?
That just smacks of laziness.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Maybe I'm not interperting this right, but you're voting BZ to get posting, but you're also expecting a fire? An inane vote coupled with expectations for a major reaction is just... confusing.Adel wrote: It may be lazy of me, but I'm resorting to using my vote to pressure Blue Zebra into posting more. CTD parking his vote on BZ is a null tell for CTD and his replacement. I'm looking at the kindling and waiting for the fire to start.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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What? Like grammatical editing? Then why aren't you suspicious of me in all our games. I feel I am fairly skilled in the ways of grammar; (I can even manage most of it on the fly, without editing). Maybe my old school use of commas (i.e. lots of them) strikes you as ungrammatical.
[/off-topic]Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Hmmm... ABR = Jester/Martyr?Albert B. Rampage wrote:I was wondering what exactly do you do to get yourself lynched.
Nah, he knows how to act scummier than this. Start posting content please.
@Kravhen: From your supposedly "lynch-proof" position, do you have any suspicions you would like to voice? I feel it's always handy to have a few townies above total scrutiny because it allows more unorthodox ideas to surface.
Not many people are pinging my scumdar right now. I think I was right about BZ's leaning towards concise yet helpful posting, and Adel seems to be playing her most conventional here out of all our other games, though I would like to take a second look before I go on:
Vacation (21st-1st) with no internet access.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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If you post in the thread, you're speaking to the town. It just seemed like an odd comment to make. You said something odd and explained it with a cryptic statement about getting yourself lynched (though I might have been applying "yourself" to the wrong person). In an unrelated matter, do you still like your vote on BZ? (Goes for Adel too).Albert B. Rampage wrote:I was speaking to Patrick, not you.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^^ I believe we could call that the "Not Town Enough" fallacy (More formally: The Burden of Competence). I've never played with him, but if Patrick is usually a very pro-town seeming player, then being somewhat less pro-town seeming is a slight point against him, but it would take some actual evidence of him being scum (not just less pro-town) to convince me of anything other than that he might be off his game.
@Adel: I don't like how you feel the need to play Sound and Light crew in this game. IMO, trying to focus the town on one specific player seems scummy, good scum-hunters should follow many leads. To a certain extent, focusing on one player and then leaving smacks of rolefishing.
Gone 21st to 1st. Don't remember if I posted that in this thread.Unvote(even though my vote was on another absentee iirc)Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Mod:Seeing how SV has yet to significantly post, would it be possible to have my spot back? I didn't think I was going to be replaced for going on vacation. This game seems like it needs my postiness.
This is, of course, if SV is cool with it too.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Unofficially, I think DS has 4 votes right now (though Pickem's seems apt to return). In my opinion, this is not a good wagon. From reading the thread and limited experience with DS in another game ( all expeirence with DS is limited) I'm going to brand her the VI of this game.
Adel, Pickem, you already know what this means, but I'll spell it out for the rest of the town:
It is rarely in the best interests of the town to lynch a Villiage Idiot. By conventional measures, they are very scummy, but you have to realize that they are barely playing the same game as us. It is my belief that almost all tells dropped by VI's are useless, the only reason I would lynch a VI is because of a scummy voting record.
FTR, DS's record:
1:(Random) Eroto
2:(Invalid) CTD
3: BZ
4:(Quickchange)HB
The only parts of that record that are possibly scummy are the last two. She could have very easily been fishing around for the most likely wagon (in her clouded opinion).
Essentially, a VI is a gamble with 3:1 odds on lynching a townie. IMO, those aren't good odds, and it takes a lot to convice me to lynch a player I feel is a VI. I think it would be better for the town to move on.
I don't really feel there was much to comment on in my absence. The debate on DS between Pickem and Krav was kind of ridiculous, but I don't know as if either took a particuarlly scummy position (except the fact that Krav was hypocritically trying to focus the spotlight right after slamming Adel for doing so).
My biggest suspicion right now is probably on Blue Zebra. I think I've gotten a feel of his short/sweet playstyle, but I don't like what's coming out of it. Lots of votes in the beginning (the explanation for the Camisade vote is utter crap BTW), but now he just seems to be pushing wagons rather than joining them (Sir T and DS's respectively).
Vote: Blue Zebrafor pressure and thread-energization more than anything else. I hope some of the more intelligent players on the DS wagon will follow me.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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And I use it all the time as town. Pressure can be a useful thing. (For one, it got you off the hook.)Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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I almost totally forgot we were under deadline.
Mod:I would like to respectfully request a deadline extension. I don't think the town is at a decision making stage right now.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@HB, if you took your vote off because you didn't get a (satisfactory) answer, why did you say you took your vote off because you got an answer?
Whether it was distancing, or it looked like the DS wagon was falling apart, it feels like HB's unvote was far more... tactical than anything else.
FOS: HBShow"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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IMO, this whole damn game needs a kick in the pants. Camisade is trailing off, BZ hasn't posted in 4 days, Erotomachia is also quite gone, ABR has yet to post content, and Pickem hasn't beaten nearly as much shit as he said he would.
Mod:Please prod all those you feel would be appropriate to prod.
FOS: Albert, Camisadefor having the most suspicious behavior of all our lurkers.
I'm also finding Sir T's play in this game to be pretty scummy. He's basically avoided posting real content this whole game. He started out by focusing only on the chess game with Adel, then switched to flat out attacking Kravhen with rehashed arguments. I have yet to see anything original from him, and I still don't like the way he explained his playstyle.
Unvote; Vote: Sir Tornado(My vote will probably do more good if it's on a player who's actually playing)Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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You carried it along farther than most of us took the random stage. Even if it isn't scummy, I felt it should be mentioned if I was giving an informal timeline.Sir Tornado wrote:
Chess game discussion was in the random stage...NabakovNabakov wrote:He started out by focusing only on the chess game with Adel, then switched to flat out attacking Kravhen with rehashed arguments. I have yet to see anything original from him, and I still don't like the way he explained his playstyle.
What do you mean by rehashed arguments? No one had made any of those arguments in this game before me.
So, in what way would you like me to explain my playstyle?
I saw you as mainly following on the coattails of Adel in attacking Kravhen. You took what she said and upped the volume. There are a few exceptions, but I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say "no one had made any of those arguments."
Something less stupid than this please.Sir T wrote: This is not "moderately scummy". I am currently appearing on "pro-town" list of most of the town in at least more than half the games I am in.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Does anybody else think ABR has a posting restriction or something?
@Sir T: Sorry about being cheeky and quoting just that bit, but I really didn't like that that was how you explained away my suspicions of your playstyle. I know this falls more under lynching the player than anything, but I think a playstyle like yours would be very easy for scum to hide in.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Sir T: Right, I get townvibes from your play in Big Love, and scumvibes from your play here. Because you're using the exact same playstyle in both, and we've already established it can be used by scum or town, it pretty much locks the meta-game on you being scum here.
Adel got to her conclusions somehow, possibly by logic (you can't quite tell with Adel). It was adding the black-white, supra-logical framework that you did that I termed "upping the volume." I'm not saying that taking a harder-line approach on Kravhen was all that scummy, but it wasn't all that original either.
@Krav: I would, I have a tendancy to have that type of paranoia too. I don't really see much of a chance for the Sir T wagon overtaking the Haut Boy wagon at this point. It would take 3 more votes (a tie would still go to Haut Boy). I'm attacking Sir T right now because I see him as the scummiest player, and I'm not one to just join the biggest wagon at deadline and hope for the best. I see the case on Haut Boy, and I think it definitely merits the votes he has right now; it would be a good idea to see him pressured, but I'm not sure if it merits a lynch. (I'm kinda' peeved with the Mod for just ignoring my extension request.)
I definitely think all analysis of the deadline will be totally irrelevant before we actually lynch.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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He can't say, "Well this is just how I always play as town. Here's an example of my scum play. See, totally different."
Sorry for refrencing an ongoing, but he started it.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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I'm not sure how accurate that VC is, but it seems like we're going for a Sir T lynch. I think that his behavior has been scummy for reasons I have outlined before (so there's no point in me rehashing them to answer why I got scumvibes), and in the deadline situation, he's the player I'm most comfortable with lynching.
However, I find this entire deadline to be veryuncomfortable, and I would have prefered it if we had had more time to deliberate. I feel many players like Albert, BZ, DS, and Camisade are sliding through this day without putting in their part, and no matter what their allignment, it's anti-town.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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I wonder if any changes in votes will count now that we're technically past deadline.
An unofficial vote count (based on Patrick's in 486)
Adel (5): Albert B. Rampage, deadscilent, Patrick, Erotomachia, Kravhen
Sir Tornado (2) NabakovNabakov, Blue Zebra
Albert B. Rampage (2): Camisade, Adel
Haut Boy (1): Pickemgenius
I'm not sure what to think about Albert's play the last few pages, it's very very obvious that he wants Adel lynched (possibly for meta-game reasons) and this is really his only activity the entire game. I don't like the blatant way in which he has campaigned for this (it definitely smacks of last minute pressure removal from a scumbuddy), but I'm also unsure of Adel's townieness. I'll keep my vote where it is for now because I'm very unsure of who to trust. Hopefully, that will become clearer after the lynch.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Not a good D1. I still maintain that we were shoehorned into a lynch we weren't ready for, but we still need to step up the play if we want to catch scum.
I really did consider making a case on Albert, the way he awoke from pointlessness and campaigned for votes on Adel just hours before deadline (in order to get revenge on her for playing poorly in another game) was unquestionably scummy, and even moreso now that Adel has been revealed as our Doc. I know that Albert doesn't have a reputation for subtlety, but I couldn't even see Albert-scum being so blatant. This is essentially where we get to WIFOM, so I'll stop. But I will place ahugeFOS: Albertbecause Occam would have wanted me to.
Additionally: *Standard lurker speech* The first two people who posted today are dead, and only 4 people (myself included) have posted since.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Sir T: Strapped for time. I thought addresing Albert was more important, and the lurker thing was basically auto-pilot.
I'm not one of those players who, if the person they're accusing isn't lynched, just drops their vote back on them the next day. I still think that your early behavior concerning Kravhen was fairly scummy, but your recent analysis (525, 538) definitely strikes "lack of original thinking/suspicions" off my list of scumtells. My Eye is definitely still On You, but now that we've entered a new day, I feel like there's some room to pursue other lines of inquiry.
Your analysis of the Adel wagon is one of those very lines:
On deadscilent: I still hold to VI in this case, but that doesn't mean there isn't information to be had (it's just better to forget the semantics). I think the majority of your analysis fits with erratic VI behavior. The vote for Adel was mysterious, but she actually provided more precedent for it than many of the other things she did.
On Patrick: I pretty much agree with what you had to say here. To a point, I understand Patrick's insistence that we end up withsomekind of lynch at the end of the day, but I'm not sure if that meshes with his vote for Adel, as he seemed to find both her and Sir T equally scummy.FOS
On Erotomachia: I do think it was odd that he basically said "I'm willing to do this, but post a case first." It seems kind of wishy-washy, but I guess hewasdeciding the lynch for that day. More than any of the other players, he was badgered by ABR into his vote, but that doesn't exonerate him in the least.FOS
Hitting preview, I can see that Patrick has posted a defense, but it focuses more on the extraneous and the theoretical than the hop itself. I would also like deadscilent and Erotomachia to comment.
@Albert: Have you decided why I'm scummy yet? I can't wait all day.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Sir T: If you can find the right perspective, just about any post can be seen as "possibly scummy." Besides, I didn't say I got massive pro-town vibes from the posts. I just said that they weren't derivitive of anybody else's, something I had seen as scummy in your eariler posts.
@Patrick: I guess that's what I get for just scanning a post before adding an"on hitting preview" comment. I saw extraneous bits and theory, but I guess I missed why exactly you thought Adel was scummy, so I owe you an apology. However, I think it's odd (especially because you claimed to have had your suspicions of Adel for a while) that you've waited until now to spell them out. In reading your posts at the time, it's just lots of vague "Adel is pretty scummy" remarks. My head was really half-way between those posts and current posts.
[/backpedal]
@Albert: I don't know what being at the "bottom" means exactly, but have fun at the show.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^^ I don't think revenge can be counted out as a factor. At the very same time Albert began campaigning for Adel's lynch, Newbie 415 had just ended. Adel's poor play (as a Doc nonetheless) sank the game for the entire town. I believe Albert has said his actions were "based on the newbie game," but I don't think that means he learned a meta-game lesson about Adel's playstyle (if anything, the game indicated that Adel-town can be erratic).
However, when it comes to in-game motives, I think you're generally correct in your evaluation. I don't think he ever actually said he wanted to stop a Sir T lynch, but it definitely shouldn't be ruled out as an ulterior motive. Whether or not the lynch had a factor of meta-revenge just alters if it was a handy excuse for Albert-scum or a horrible motive for Albert-town.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Such is the way of a game with a VI.
However, I'm growing ever more impatient for Albert's case. I expect better from him.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Albert, should my expectations of you really bethislow?
Awaiting Theo's post and DS's replacement. Additionally, Haut Boy hasn't posted all day.
Sorry I don't have much to contribute at this point. My eye is still on Albert even though he was probably acting more out of vendetta than anything else. I'm still holding some suspicions on Sir T, and I will be watching the replacements to both lurkers with scrutiny.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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That's quite a wall of words. That's probably 10 time's Camisade's total verbage. I look forward to your conclusions and will hold questions until you make them.
Hmm, both you and Pickem have pointed out how I ended up defending the two confirmed townies. In a way, that's no so remarkable as I find myself defending a lot of people. I just thought the argument between Adel and Kravhen needed moderation if the town was going to actually find scum (to bad that didn't work).Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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ChronX: Allow me to introduce you to a little concept called WIFOM. Speculations about when, how, why, or where the scum did something aren't exactly prohibited, but they rarely lead anywhere conclusive. The scum could have killed him because he was on to one of them. OR the scum could have killed him because he was "on to" a lot of people, many of whom might be townies. BUT the scum might have already considered that we'd think that, so they thought it would be perfect cover for killing him if he reallywason to one of them.
Do you see how that can go on forever in an endless yet completely unproductive cycle? The scum did what the scum did, and we won't know why until the game is over.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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I'm not sure what the mod was on about there, but it could have been something somebody said in a discussion forum. Like I said, it's not an official offense per-se, but most people have agreed that it doesn't really get you anywhere. WIFOM might be overused in some quarters (we're much more... cautious on this site), but NK analysis is pretty much it's epitome.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Damn
Bye Patrick. That'll teach you to mix mafia and talking to people. *dons tinfoil hat*
I'm still awaiting conclusions from Theo, but I'm beginning to think that ChronX's comment about summary versus content had something to it. He also seems much too critical of his past self. I got lurker vibes from Camisade, but the way Theo has treated them seems over the top.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@ChronX: We don't have to shut down the game just because Sir T based a vote on a poor meta. It was a stupid, nay, scummy thing to do, but the show must go on. A lot of effort gets put into games, and shutting them down is avoided unless absolutely necessary.
FOS: Sir Tornadofor trying to spin an unfortunate incident into a bandwagon.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Note the "trying." Your vote wasn't made on in-game reasons, so it couldn't have been used to punctuate arguments or apply pressure. (How is somebody supposed to defend themsevles against something like that?) I see no other explanation than a poor attempt at a wagon.Sir Tornado wrote:
One vote is a bandwagon?NabNab wrote:
FOS: Sir Tornado for trying to spin an unfortunate incident into a bandwagon.
Welcome back Kravhen!
...maybe Adel can replace Patrick.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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No she doesn't. She was the lynch, and was therefore dead N1. She knows nothing more than we do.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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I'm fine with the "Player X acted A in this game where he was town, but he's acting B in this game. Let's vote him." meta-game. But I think it's a far cry from "Player X reguarly chats with Player Y outside the thread, so he might have slipped that information."
To a small extent, it's a valid argument (though you're taking too narrow a perspective by saying whoever slipped to Patrick is scum), but it crosses the line. In much the same way we're not supposed to discuss the game outside the thread, it seems unethical to bring in things having nothing to do with the game (or mafia itself really) and use them as arguments to try to get somebody lynched. There's a reason that Patrick withdrew from the game. It was to avoid exactly the kind of behavior you're exhibiting right now.
I too am glad that Deadscilent has gotten a replacement. VI's (scum or town) are a horrible strain on any game. Now we will have a chance to determine her allignment for ourselves (and we already have a handy in-thread meta-game of Kravhen's town play).Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Pickem: I don't get what you're saying. My main complaint about VI's is that they're unscrutable. Now that we have a competent player in that role, we will actually have behavior to examine. How is that far from the truth?Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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Pickem: You read into me too much. All I said is that we now have a basis to form an opinion. I only mentioned the meta-game as an aside. I don't propose to rigidly adhere to it (you know I'm not a huge meta-gamer), I would treat it as I would a meta from a seperate game (looking for common tells and behavioral tics). I'm not sure how smart it would be to give wieght to differences in who New Kravhen defends or attacks (as opposed to Old Kravhen), it's too obvious WIFOM and feels vaguely unethical.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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^Looks like somebody got prodded
Has Theo just completely dissappeared? We got half a summary and nothing else.
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NabakovNabakov LalitaLalita
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@Theo: I'm not inclined to just give VI's a completely free pass, but I generally prefer waiting around for them to be replaced (as they almost ineveitably are) to lynching them for being confusing/confused. But the points you bring up do make good sense if we can assume DS was fairly lacking in subtlety (which I think we can). I'm keeping a close eye on New Kravhen as a result.
@ChronX: Albert hasn't exactly gotten a free pass. We're all very pissed at him and it was a stupid thing to do, but I challenge you to spin it into a real scumtell. You can't just scum hunt by indentifying people who play poorly or oddly, you have to look for genuinely scummy motivations. You yourself have commented that Albert's dumbass lynch was cross-gaming. Could that have been a cover? Yes. But at that point, you're pretty much at the mercy of WIFOM.
Blue Zebra seems to be playing a much slower game than the rest of us. It took me a minute to realize that his FOS came 10 pages and one day ago. However, the reasons are still pretty valid, and I will give this one to Albert, this thread needs a good deal more bandwagon. If Eroto won't post, we'll make him postVote: Erotomachia
But a generalFOSon the numerous other lurkers fouling up this game. I defintely count Pickem and Albert among those, and would say that Blue Zebra probably goes up there too. He doesn't post much (Posts-per-thread or words-per-post) and that makes me think he might be hiding, but I just get more of a feeling of conciseness rather than lurking.Show"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.
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