Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[VysePresident]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

This hurts my head to read.

More in a moment.

What do you think about it?

[VysePresident]

@Metal - Could I get your thoughts on Ari, both his early-game and current play? I'd actually appreciate you diving into this a little bit, even if it's not fully worked out yet.

[VysePresident]

Vyse: I actually didn't even realize a good chunk of his content has been about me until I went into his ISO, but it doesn't really look like he is scumhunting. He also started off the game with an Ari vote and then backed off for reasons I'm not sure were made clear. Like, what does this post mean, actually?

I'm still not thrilled with Ari. His early posts bugged me because he seemed to be more inclined to banter than engage, and more importantly, when he did engage, it seemed more directed at creating suspicion than sorting through the game. That said, I'm not sure he's my first choice anymore.

Especially given no follow up or actual questioning of Ari. For someone who is unsure on a slot, he sure isn't asking any questions or appearing to actually figure him out.

This is going to be more of a quick overview of my read than an explanation, just FYI. It's late.

Short version is that I didn't like Ari's early posts. They seemed inclined to banter over providing substance, except when he could throw easy suspicion. (See: Acryon, Gliffe, & bandwagons.) I also didn't buy some of his explanations for various bits of his early play.

His later play shook that read, because it didn't continue to follow that route. Instead, he was weird, and off the wall, and it forced me to rethink my initial thoughts on him. Currently, I'm against lynching him, because his thought process as a whole makes more sense with the acknowledgement in 252. It explains why I felt he was making his points up, without being able to scumread him for it, when I looked back.

Also, you'll note I'm kinda sucking all around at the moment. I'll ask questions as I get the chance sort through my thoughts enough to have something relevant. I don't have the same grasp on this game as I'd like.

[VysePresident]

I'm just going to address West real quick in a spoilered quote wall.

Spoiler: Stuff

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

It was this:

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

...?

Why does that bit stand out? This wasn't my case. You can find that starting in 320 and in long form from 360 down.

wrote:
Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

There's something really funny to me about "this is what I think about the nightkill. Screw that guy that brought up his thoughts about the nightkill."

It's more like "This is what I think on the NK. Ginko's thoughts bother me because it feels like he's reaching, and he seemed to be pushing it relatively hard compared to what I felt it merited. Maybe Wolf?"

It's a light suspicion at this point. I don't think that's unfair.

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

The doubt was from me not knowing if being cautious like that is a part of Vyse's meta. Since then, he addressed me and that post without really addressing that portion of it, making me more confident that it's not a meta thing.

I generally don't bother with self-meta. It's kind of a WIFOM game, and I generally don't need to push for a Townread on myself. My analysis tends to take care of that for me, in most cases. Also, this game is falling painfully short of my Town (&Scum) Meta. I'm not really getting as good a grasp on the game as I'd like. #RedundantComplaints

I will say that I like to analyze narratives that form in the game to find scum. I try to build a very strong understanding of the undercurrents in a game, and compare others' analysis to my own, factoring in my understanding of their personality along with my take on the game to find scum.That's probably my favorite way to search for scum, actually, and the most effective.

The weird thing about this game is that there wasn't really much in the way of narratives early on, with the exception of Acryon, who's Ari & Lal cases didn't feel genuine to me. Now I'm not sure. :/ I still don't like his play, but Prawn and Jordan jumped on that wagon pretty easily, and I'm a bit leery of them, given my take on the early game is that there was a lot of Town back & forth going on.

Like, if you want self-meta, then I can't be scum because I wouldn't be addressing you with a wall right now. There are easier ways to avoid the attention. I'd be answering you in a way that turned the conversation back outwards. (Honestly, I should probably be doing that now anyway, but I'm curious to see your thoughts.) #WIFOM

[VysePresident]

I'll quit ranting for now. I'm getting too tired to think straight, and this thread is already starting to look like my ISO. I'll try to have a reads list sometime later, life permitting.

I'd really, really like to see some content from Prawn & Jordan. I'd really like to get a feel for our quieter slots.

[farside22]

@vyse: I don't look at join dates typically. Lal read lost to me and bad from the word go. West has read more indepth thought process. I have played with someone who never played online mafia and came across as west did. No one really said anything about ari but the more he post the more he reads newb. He may not be, it's not obvious and I asked acryon for reaction purposes and he failed.

Not sure if this was meant to be addressed at me, but I'm curious, why is the Lal read suddenly lost to you now?

How did Acryon fail the reaction test?

I'm having a hard time following your thought process.

Lost is not alignment indictive. i didn't think it was necessary to say lal was reading lost.
Why are you asking?
Also a lot of your questions you asked me I did explain already. Did you just skim the game or what?

[farside22]

Oh I haven't forgot about Metal's response, just getting interuptions today.

Does anyone know if Metal considers lurking a scum tell normally?

[prawneater]

Prodge

[~Jordan`]

Sometimes I just wanna
get away

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Phonepost ahoy: (lowbattery rush)
@farside: 263 waa the one I was talking about.
@Metal: I totes get if you hold it against Jordan who's actually here, or get angry about Young seeming apathetic towards the game or whatever, but why are you not even considering that if both Young and Gliff had to sub out then thers clearly more to it than some dumb lurkscum move?

@vyse: Request noted, but right now its not the best time for me to try to order my thoughts on people, sorry. The hardest stances ive got right now is wanting to lynch acryon, metal being a good alt, and farside being the player im most comfortable trusting right now.

[Metalcyanide]

@Lyserg I did consider there was more to it. In post 680 I was saying I thought YYR was lurking but he subbed out so I wanted to see more from Jordan. We're almost a full 48 hours since I said that and he has posted the following:

curses

I'll just go into skim mode tonight. Close reading is always a bad idea.

Sometimes I just wanna
get away

So Jordan has been here and has at least had the ability to say something about the game. While I don't know what was happened with YYR or Gliffie I'm leaving my lurking suspicion on Jordan.

[Aristophanes]

Really sorry guys, I got busy again. I'll be here tonight, I promise! If not, I'll ask for a replacement. But I will be here and hopefully have some good insights. Just allow me time to get home and read up!

Thanks for understanding

[acryon]

Sooo now I have the flu. It's not really fair to the game to not be around like this, so I am sadly going to ask for a replacement in at least a couple of my games.

Sorry guys.

@Mod: Requesting replacement

.

[Metalcyanide]

So we need to hear from Jordan, need a replacement for Ginko and now Acryon. This game has slowed down quite a bit

[Metalcyanide]

Feel better soon Acryon

[Honey bee]

Sooo now I have the flu. It's not really fair to the game to not be around like this, so I am sadly going to ask for a replacement in at least a couple of my games.

Sorry guys.

@Mod: Requesting replacement

.

It's k. *Replacing acryon*

Also, Cheetory6 has decided to replace back in the slot of ginko.

[farside22]

Phonepost ahoy: (lowbattery rush)
@farside: 263 waa the one I was talking about.
@Metal: I totes get if you hold it against Jordan who's actually here, or get angry about Young seeming apathetic towards the game or whatever, but why are you not even considering that if both Young and Gliff had to sub out then thers clearly more to it than some dumb lurkscum move?

@vyse: Request noted, but right now its not the best time for me to try to order my thoughts on people, sorry. The hardest stances ive got right now is wanting to lynch acryon, metal being a good alt, and farside being the player im most comfortable trusting right now.

Your action and comments make no sense.
You voted metal day 2.
The comment you linked was stated day 1.

If you like metals post why did you vote for him in the first place?

[farside22]

Just a point of order.
Voted metal here.

@Acryon: Oh. K then. That's a lot of confidence P=. Can't really yell that much at Ari if the response isn't what I expected ^ ^'

I thought you'd call it dumb because there's little point to a one-man wagon if you can use your vote to lynch your secondary suspect (even more so now that

your confidence on scumWest had risen considerably after your exchange with him) or because it can be used to avoid a NL or something like that. Then I'd yell at Ari because I wasn't sure about the point of that line of questioning and it worried me when also considering his super lame "Metal, didn't you notice the timer!?" question and because the "If I'm not scum" part of it makes no sense (is there any other answer than "How the hell would I know? And if I did of course I wouldn't vote you" to that 0.0?).

   Tbh when I first asked you about your case on Ari and with how confident you seemed, I thought I'd get some new content (and I did) but I also thought it'd be composited and strengthened with you agreeing with and pointing to other people's D1 points (there's nothing inherently wrong with that not being the case, but I would've understood your confidence more if it was). Looking back on this, I prolly shouldn't have questioned you on that so early and I should've given you more breathing room instead to see how you'd organically push for the Ari lynch. But whatever.

@farside: About Metal focusing on werewolves: Idk, he went for Ari first and only changed to West after that exchange. If you mean because the trio of suspects for wolf, then: We caught one wolf, I'd think it's natural to have specific wolf suspects based off the possibilities of associative tells. Also, I noted D1 that Acryon/Orc interactions seemed too inocuous, so I can see where Metal would get that "team" read from and him noticing the tones with which players interact is partly why I could sorta see Ginko's comment on Metal having "deeper" thoughts on players than what I/him remember/s from scumMetal when he said that

I'm honestly conflicted on Metal lynch, partly because gut, partly because of a few stuff I liked I already mentioned. I also like that he at least took the time to comment on the votes of the wagon he himself was on. Stuff I don't like either I've already commented or other people have said them and I didn't raise counterpoints; Metal lynch is fine, but not my favorite.

I can't make myself feel better about the stuff I haven't liked about Acryon by chalking them up to playstyle differences (and my gut likes the vote better there than in Metal), the feeling of insincerity I got off him doesn't go away. VOTE: Acryon. Also, stuff that I feel the strongest about regarding Metal have to do with his interactions with Acryon (or lack thereof), so there's that.

I'm wary of just letting West correct himself like that, but I guess that way it is consistent with his previous line of questioning to Acryon of "Or by being scum". I'm going back and forth with West and the possibiliy of getting the wolf is tempting. To the points farside brought up before, there are counters based off Lal's meta and the idea that West is not dumb enough to not know when to bus; I feel slightly off about West pushing farside's points to Acryon when some of them had counters with Lal's meta of which West should be aware of (Lal relying on the points made by a scummate and defending them), only "slightly" off because Acryon had no reason to know about Lal's meta and he really was just ignoring farside's points. Thou the "solid townread" Lal gave to West seems overboard, I remember her being a bit more wishywashy when giving townpoints to scummates on the Madoka game. @Ari: But you can help me out here, since I actually didn't play that game.

Talked about the post you liked which was before your vote.

[farside22]

Well the vote to metal didn't happen but it was way after the post linked.

[Aristophanes]

Cheet's coming back? Awesome! Too bad we're losing Acryon though.
Still going to address things from him regardless.
And Young being gone is sad. Welcome Jordan!
Just to let people know, Young has been busy in the last few games I've played with him and has had to sub a couple times I believe. Gliffie also gets quite busy. I don't think either of them had alignment indicative silences. I know not if the case is the same with Jordan though.

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).

I would say it's a helping of that along with some tone that I don't see coming from town like in post 197 for instance. Needless fluff post.

I don't see what's wrong with this post. I made posts 196, 197, and 199 (the latter being a larger one) all within 15 mins of each other. How is the one in the middle bad? Sure, it's "needless" I suppose, but it neither prod-dodged nor distracted from what was going on. I fail to see the harm or anti-town motivation one could get from it.

So I've made it to page 6 and there is absolutely no reason this shouldn't end in a perfect town win.

Looking forward to, maybe, some sort of follow-up to this with reads and a vote?

Farside, what's this thing you're on about with Lyserg voting Metal when he actually voted Acryon? Were you just confused or what? Does it change your thoughts any? Like, basically your last 3 posts totally confused me.

Also, you asked for reads again, yes?
I'd be most okay with an Acryon lynch, but Metal is also cool to go if we so desire.

Town-ish vibes go to Lyserg and Prawn. Yourself as well, Farside, but a little weaker.

Null on Jordan, Ginko is a null with a slight town lean, West is null with a slight scum lean. Both of these leans are quite slight, but that's where my head is at on them.

Anyway, Sleep time now. Should be on tomorrow. Probs missed stuff, so please yell at me about it.

[farside22]

Sorry.
I phone post so quotes get lost and it was late.

Lyse voted metal but he unvoted metal and voted acryon.
I asked lyse what he liked about metal that changed his views on metal.
The post lyse linked to was a comment by metal. That comment was wayyyyyy before lyse voted for metal.

To me it reads as though lyse is being insincere about his reasons and reads.

Here is why.
If lyse liked metals comment and read. Why vote for him in the first place?

[prawneater]

Later Acryon. Looking forward to seeing how your replacement will react in his spot.

Sometimes I just wanna
get away

wth is this?

[Aristophanes]

Okay, thanks Farside. Thay makes more sense now and I look forward to his response. To me I see town play from Lyserg, but I have played many games with him and sometimes that can put blinders on, so keep it up.

Later Acryon. Looking forward to seeing how your replacement will react in his spot.

Sometimes I just wanna
get away

wth is this?

Tainted Love I think?

[Cheetory6]

Sup. I'm here to replace in and be a loser.
Have more free time and if I don't have to worry at all about hydra mechanics I should be a little more coherent now. Reading up now.

-Cheetory6
^I'm so funny.

[Honey bee]

pisskop replaces acryon!