Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[prawneater]

Later Ginko. Love the Kill la Kill avatar. Mako my favourite character!

re: Acryon vote. He was already on my scumlist D1. The fact that he's pushing a wagon on Aristophanes, who is essentially clear, makes me think he's not looking at this game from a town perspective and is more pushing an agenda.

@Aristophanes You have been so close to lynch at several pts on D1. I really doubt scum throws out those token bus votes on anyone who has been so close to death, so early in the day.

[acryon]

re: Acryon vote. He was already on my scumlist D1. The fact that he's pushing a wagon on Aristophanes, who is essentially clear, makes me think he's not looking at this game from a town perspective and is more pushing an agenda.

Can I just reiterate how you saying Ari is "essentially clear" is completely inane.

[farside22]

I'm more wondering if metal talked to lal or how they ended up in the game together.

How would this affect your read of metal?

I did see metal say he knew her in RL but west didn't know lal was gimme.

How would this affect your read of West?

It should change your view of west, don't you think?

I'm just going to call bs to this.
Acyron need I remind you of scrambles play in our last game together and how he just followed and switched reads based on nothing.

That was completely different. And he wasn't scum because he was wrong. Being wrong for scum benefit is generally scummy. Being wrong is not.

He switched reads to appear town.

Now tell me what, specifically you like about metal and find town.
Links,quotes something.
I'll be happy to point to metals list that had more null reads, and I again look at you for not saying anything, equal about half the players in the game and your fine with that.

[acryon]

I'm more wondering if metal talked to lal or how they ended up in the game together.

How would this affect your read of metal?

I did see metal say he knew her in RL but west didn't know lal was gimme.

How would this affect your read of West?

It should change your view of west, don't you think?

Not really. Nothing in the way he dealt with Lal looks differently to me whether he knows her or not IMO.

I'm just going to call bs to this.
Acyron need I remind you of scrambles play in our last game together and how he just followed and switched reads based on nothing.

That was completely different. And he wasn't scum because he was wrong. Being wrong for scum benefit is generally scummy. Being wrong is not.

He switched reads to appear town.

Now tell me what, specifically you like about metal and find town.
Links,quotes something.
I'll be happy to point to metals list that had more null reads, and I again look at you for not saying anything, equal about half the players in the game and your fine with that.

I just don't see him as scum. I don't think the things he is doing are scummy. I believe you and others have failed to explain how they

are

scummy. I don't really need reasons to

not

scum-read someone other than not feeling like they've done anything to benefit scum or push a scum agenda. The burden of proof is on you to explain why he is scum, not on me to explain why I don't think he is scum (there is a difference between "I don't think he is scum" and "I think he is town." Is switching reads in a way that doesn't make sense to you something that scum does? Sure. Is it something that town does? Yep. Is listing a lot of nulls something that scum can do to avoid committing? Yep. Is it also something town lacking confidence does? You betcha.

[farside22]

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).
In any case, I do dislike his latest questioning to you, the last quote you mentioned on 599 felt like misrep.

(quickposting over: gone for lunch and other stuff, also now musing the idea of Acryon+Metal scumteam; waiting to understand more of farside and Prawn's vote on Acryon)
P-EDIT:

Ginko you jerk. Good luck with your IRL stuff :C
@farside: Eh, fair enough, not sure if I missed it because skimming over, but can you tell me what you were testing when asking about West's experience and why that led to you voting Acryon?

There are 2 seperate groups in here.
1) is ms people (2) is other site people.
If acryon is that confident it reads as inside info that he should not have as an ms player.


ebwop: acryon I have asked and lyse asked you to provide examples. Your refusal to do say just reads as you can't do it.

[acryon]

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).
In any case, I do dislike his latest questioning to you, the last quote you mentioned on 599 felt like misrep.

(quickposting over: gone for lunch and other stuff, also now musing the idea of Acryon+Metal scumteam; waiting to understand more of farside and Prawn's vote on Acryon)
P-EDIT:

Ginko you jerk. Good luck with your IRL stuff :C
@farside: Eh, fair enough, not sure if I missed it because skimming over, but can you tell me what you were testing when asking about West's experience and why that led to you voting Acryon?

There are 2 seperate groups in here.
1) is ms people (2) is other site people.
If acryon is that confident it reads as inside info that he should not have as an ms player.


ebwop: acryon I have asked and lyse asked you to provide examples. Your refusal to do say just reads as you can't do it.

How do I provide evidence for a lack of evidence?

You

need to provide legitimate examples of why he

is

scum.

[acryon]

But go ahead and see 365, 467, and 52 for things I've already said on this matter.

[Honey bee]

~Jordan` replaces YYR!

[~Jordan`]

Are you ready?!

[Metalcyanide]

Farside:

Metal: why is what west did scummy above everything else.

West has been the only person harping on the fact I put him in my possible wolf list based off the D1 votes. I feel like I didn't make this a secret that he was there only because of it. He has been over reacting to it and I feel like he is trying to just get his name off any scum list.

Lyserg:

@Metal: Metalpls, answer my question about your standing on previous points against Acryon during D1 (or well, at this point you can also tell me about the points about Acryon that are in play right now, considering the wagon and all), I feel like you are avoiding giving any meaningful opinion on him >.<.

Okay so here is everything about Acryon that comes to mind when I think about him so far this game: I have obisously gone back and forth on my read of Acryon, first he was townish, then he was scum, then back to town after the Orc night kill. All of that was based on D1 interactions with Orc, who I misread. They were playing off each other really well and I thought it was possible they were a scum team trying to get town to go in a particular direction. That still could of been the case had Orc not been night killed and revealed as town. Since then I've liked his agruements against Ari, even though I switched my vote. I hope this has anwsered your question.

Farside:

Metal: how did you know lal was gimme?

She's used the name in other nonmafia games before. And I asked her over a text message. Just to be clear we did not discuss any other aspect of the game and that was prior to D1 start.

[~Jordan`]

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday as usual for me.

[~Jordan`]

So I've made it to page 6 and there is absolutely no reason this shouldn't end in a perfect town win.

[~Jordan`]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

Hi.

Town.

Are you really expecting anything other then that for a response?

Hi to everyone else.
I'll be reading up later today.

Nope. I'm just getting you involved right off the bat.

really excited for the pointful acryon welcome

[farside22]

Hey Jordan. Name seems familiar, have we played before?

[~Jordan`]

Yeah!

This thread is really boring to read!

[farside22]

Yeah!

This thread is really boring to read!

Well it shouldn't be too boring, wolf was lynched day 1.

Your Thoughts on ari?

[~Jordan`]

unsure as of page 10 why is it taking so long to read this aghhh

[Metalcyanide]

Don't know but you are 38.46% done at least

[farside22]

Metal scum read.

Here is what I see from Metal that rubs me the wrong way.


One his reads. They change for very strange reason from town to scum. I don't see the logic he is coming from with those changes at all even with Acyron/Orc.

Next he voted for Orc because Ari asked Orc a question and then Metal has a vague reason to suddenly scum read Ari that he didn't mention prior.
Also when I read the quotes about his team of Orc/acyron it makes not a lick of sense to see them on the same team based on there back and forth.
None.

Finally there is the West scum read. He had it day 1, not much reason why.
He has it day 2 based on wolf not being on the wagon. Lets not forget Metal was not on the wagon either so that is pretty weak reason to find one of X scum on that basis.
Then when West prods more on this scum read reasoning you have Metal getting more and more defensive about the position and attacking more from West.

All are in the spoilers below.

Spoiler:

Hey all sorry for my lack of posts I was with Lalendra all day and my phone doesn't seem to like this site. Also,

Unvote:Lalendra

that was just a D1 joke vote.

So anyways after catching up on things I'm going to side with Ari with wanting to see an explanation from orcinus_theoriginal for his random votes.

Vote:orcinus_theoriginal

VOTE: UNvote: orcinus_theoriginal aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy. But I'm having trouble with this 3 team thing so he could still be scum but just hunting the other scum. Who knows at this point.

I would like to see more from people before really coming up with anything definite.

Okay, so I guess I should actually partake of this game a bit more than I have been, so here are my thoughts on everyone that I have actually formed an opinion on thus far (if a person isn't listed I haven't gotten a good read on them):
acryon & orcinus_theoriginal: feels like they are on the same team I don't know if that is town, mafia, or wolf but they seem to be on the same page.
Aristophanes: As others have pointed out Ari has just seemed scummy. From playing with him I don't ever recall him being as sloppy with his posts as he has been (who does he think he is me lol).
farstefan - Has this person posted yet? Are they being replaced
Ginko - So far Cheet being Cheet. I really need to learn how to read him better.
Lalendra - Needs to participate. Your 30th birthday was 3 days ago now come on old lady lets go (I'm so dead IRL)

To address some things that were addressed towards me:
I removed my vote from orcinus because I no longer needed the "pressure vote" (as someone called it) and 63 gave me an answer I was looking for why he was just throwing around the random votes
Orcinus you said I'm "self-concerned and not legitimately curious". I am self concerned, I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing. I am curious about things but I know the questions to ask, I'm not very good with my wording.
And the reason why I was waiting so long to really post is because I was waiting for some of the people who haven't posted or at least significantly posted to post on the current events, but to keep things moving here you go

So my biggest Scum read is Ari
Acryon has my best town read and to stick with my reasoning above puts Orcinus in the town category as well.
VOTE: Aristophanes

Feel free to ask me anything I missed.

@Metal:

acryon & orcinus_theoriginal: feels like they are on the same team I don't know if that is town, mafia, or wolf but they seem to be on the same page.

Acryon has my best town read and to stick with my reasoning above puts Orcinus in the town category as well.

Can you expand on your first quote? While I can understand feeling like a couple of players are possible allies, I'm not sure I get how this can also apply to townies on a game without masons or anything like that. Associative read aside, why is Acryon a town-read to you in the first place?

My town read on Acryon comes more after he and Orc were going back and forth during post 125-127. He had just said prior that he had a town read on Orc but was still mostly disagreeing with someone he has cleared for at least D1.
Acryon and Orc being teammates is from their interactions, they were getting some good discussion from each other instead of the typical accusation and defensive statements I've usually seen.

Can you tell me exactly which of Ari's posts or points are sloppy to you?

Ari seems to be joking around more, his posts just don't read right to me. Sorry I know that's not super helpful but I'm going off the way I'm reading it and it's hard to explain.

Care to expand at all on why Lyserg is town, I'm your scum read, and everyone else is neutral?

I think Lyserg is actively scumhunting. You on the other hand seem to jump to whatever popular bandwagon is going. First with orcinus_theoriginal, next with Aristophanes. The reasoning behind your votes amounts to "seems scummy" with no further elaboration. It just seems like someone who wants a fast lynch to me.

A) The orcinus_theoriginal vote was to get the reason for his random votes. I missed a post which if I had seen would of made the vote unneeded.
B) Ari has felt off to me and this being a game of mafia especially in D1 sometimes relies on a gut feeling based off of the past. And I am keeping my vote on him unless someone can convince me otherwise.

But on another note: You have had 4 posts (thank you orcinus_theoriginal) 1)voting for Vyse 2)Saying Lyserg is town / I'm scum 3) voting for me 4) quoted. Why the lack of posts? You've been on the site and commenting on other subjects are you trying to just lurk through D1? Also, are the other people who voted for Ari after me (farside and lal) just looking for a quick lynch? Also, your town read is still voting for Ari what does that say to you? We need some info out of you man

Okay so big post time. But I've decide to rework how I'm looking at everything . So I'm going to post reads and/or question based off of peoples current votes (also @Mod your vote count is wrong prawn is voting for me not Vyste)

People voting for Ari:
West: What is your current thoughts on Ari? Your vote started as a joke, then you later justified it by analyzing his wording (post 102). You also suggested an Ari&myself team, can you elaborate on this more if you still think so. (we are voting for each other as of this post). For everyone else I think West is flying under the radar a bit. Not based on the number of posts but the substance. Most posts have to do with Ari. I'm leaning slightly towards nontown on West atm.

VysePresident: Well based off Vyse comments so far, real life has apparently prevented him from participating. However, before he left he was also wary of Ari's town and wording. Null read just not enough there right now.

Metalcyanide: I don't belive Ari is playing his typical town game but some of his recent posts have been a return to form. Not sure if that's because he is just more focused or trying to fix tone.

Farside22: I really like post 166. It really sums up his and other peoples vote/suspicion of Ari. He also is pushing for a Lalendra scum read but no vote on her yet, no comments after myself and others confirm she is new to mafia so this may change. My read on Far is null, not enough there for me to theorize on teammates

Quick note: Just to address Lal, myself or others being biased towards friends it won't happen. In a competitive game Lal would sell me out for a nickle just to "beat" me, as for everyone else I've seen them go after each other for the smallest of things. I forget who brought it up but please don't worry about that. So onto

Lalendra: Scum, the scummiest of scum, so scummy the scrubbing bubbles can't get rid of her. Okay but seriously, she is playing a very noob or very elaborate game (damn English major). I've read her posts several times am having trouble following her train of thought. She oddly defends me from Ari by voting for Ari. Justifies the vote more by pointing to West's reasons. Lal, has anything changed for you since Ari has answered your question? Who is your next scum read. My read on lal is noob town atm

Just a side note, this group of voters doesn't fill me with the most confidence. I do believe we are all after a scum player but my vote is most likely is aligned with a mix of town & mafia or wolf players (not both).

People voting for Lal:
Ari: He is voting for her based off of his reaction test that really only she responded to. The post between his "Vote Metal" and his next post were Lal's vote on him and people questioning Lal. So the following doesn't make much sense to me as he had one reaction in a reaction test

Of the responses, I like Lalendra's the least. I actually had a kind of scum inkling on Metal, but this is much better than I expected.
VOTE: Lalendra
She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

Anyways my thoughts on Ari I feel like are well documented at this point. Scum read.

Acryon & Orcinus_theoriginal: I'm grouping these guys together because I still think they are working together knowing they are on the same them. One of them basically reminded the other to vote post 219, post 222 and post 223 to try to distance themselves a bit. I know I said town on them earlier but they are still doing more of the same and it's not because they can't conversation out of anyone else. Feels like they are trying to steer the game. Scum team read.

Voting for Glinko:
YYR is easy. Not enough to go off of. Only 2 posts one which he says people aren't giving enough info and votes for Glinko because of reasons I can't see.

It's 530 am and I've been going over each post way longer then I wanted to. I'll finish up on everyone else after I look at some house tomorrow. (people I need to comment on are lyserg, glinko, and prawn)

@orcinus/acryon/metalcyanide would you mind posting your town/scum lists?

Scum lean:
Aristophanes
acryon / orcinus_theoriginal
West9

Null:
Lalendra
farside22
Ginko
prawneater
VysePresident

Town:
Lyserg-Zeroz
Metalcyanide

Unknown:
YYR

Lyserg and Ari asked me about Acryon. Yes, my opionion of Acrycon has changed since Orc flipped town. It truely looked like thier interactions were teamed based but since Orc could not have known what team Acryon is on the interactions look more innocent. So I'm taking Acryon off my scum list for the time being.

Ari:

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??

Yes this was a stupid question on my part and I realized it well after the day ended. It is quite possible the dumbest thing I've asked in a week.

West:

Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?

No you are no longer under the radar but you are one of the few not to vote for Lal. So as far as I'm concerned a 2 man team wouldn't vote for each other on D1, espically when there was 2 other wagons there was a chance of happening.

Vote: Metal

Fos: Acyron

for telling me this shit reads town.

[Metalcyanide]

@Farside so a lot of re-explanation here:

I don't see the logic he is coming from with those changes at all even with Acyron/Orc.

So I'm not sure why you couldn't see my D1 logic on a possible Acryon/Orc team as they were, at least to me, interacting with each other more than anyone else. Post 221-223 really make my argument. I dropped the argument after Orc flipped town.

Next he voted for Orc because Ari asked Orc a question and then Metal has a vague reason to suddenly scum read Ari that he didn't mention prior.

I voted for Orc to get him to explain his random voting with no explanation. I missed a post that did explain it however so I retracted my vote. Then I voted for Ari because of his play.

Then finally my recent West vote is because he has been the only one to care that I put a weak wolf read on him. And he wouldn't drop it even though I had Ari as my vote.

Can you explain your Acryon case? Is it anything more than just him having a town read on me?

Completely unrelated to anything above but something I'm wondering, does anyone have a good read on Prawn. I feel like no one has talked about him at all and he only has 20 posts in the 2 days

Can you explain your Acryon case? Is it anything more than just him having a town read on me?


Completely unrelated to anything above but something I'm wondering, Does anyone have a good read on Prawn. I feel like no one has talked about him at all and he only has 20 posts in the 2 days

[farside22]

@Farside so a lot of re-explanation here:

I don't see the logic he is coming from with those changes at all even with Acyron/Orc.

So I'm not sure why you couldn't see my D1 logic on a possible Acryon/Orc team as they were, at least to me, interacting with each other more than anyone else. Post 221-223 really make my argument. I dropped the argument after Orc flipped town.

That happens a lot.
It's not a tell one way or another.
Many others interacted with each other in various ways, not sure why that stood out.

Next he voted for Orc because Ari asked Orc a question and then Metal has a vague reason to suddenly scum read Ari that he didn't mention prior.

I voted for Orc to get him to explain his random voting with no explanation. I missed a post that did explain it however so I retracted my vote. Then I voted for Ari because of his play.

Then finally my recent West vote is because he has been the only one to care that I put a weak wolf read on him. And he wouldn't drop it even though I had Ari as my vote.

I'm talking about Day 1 scum read on West.
Not day 2
Your day 2 is weak and I explained why.

Can you explain your Acryon case? Is it anything more than just him having a town read on me?

That would be one thing.
The other is how he reads things and explains them reads as BS, which I said before.
Bigger case will have to wait till morning.

[Metalcyanide]

V/LA until Monday. I'll check in if possible but it's going be a busy weekend and I'm already stressing about the Superbowl. Go Patriots!!!!!!!

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Oh hey new person.
Clearly Prawn is town because he knows who best girl is.

@Prawn: Metal was also voting Ari when you made your vote, moreover, he already had three votes on him while Acryon had none (think one of the problems you had D1 was that your Metal vote didn't develop into a sizeable wagon, why not take the chance then?), why did you choose Acryon over Metal? Also, I don't like that your confTown-Ari idea kinda completely dismisses all: bussing, the idea that at least one of those votes on Ari wasn't meant to last, that the remaining non-Ari voters aren't scum with him (like, why couldn't the YYR slot or I be Ari's scumbuddies, considering we both stayed away from the Ari wagon?).

@Metal: Eh, that's kind of a repeat of what you've already said before. I was more interested in your feelings of the points Ginko/Vyse had brought up D1 or the discussion surrounding Acryon right now, but whatever, at this point the idea that it is a problem that you weren't and aren't noting any of that is engraved enough in my mind.
   Like, at least from today's conversation: Do you not have a problem with the way he sometimes avoids questions? Do you not have a problem with the way he's addressed West/Lal, and kinda retconned the reasons he had for wolfWest into gutfeels? (I'm saying I feel like he retconned what he told me on 515 after his discussion with West), don't you think taking Ari's post to say he lacks time and making them part of arguments for scumminess is reaching? (well... you yourself did also say Young could've been strat-lurking <.<, but still)

Gonna try more clearly stating my problem with your late D1: Here's what I saw: Metal had a town read on Lal, main wagon at the moment, and his vote on Ari, a wagon that was losing traction. Vyse and Ginko were making points against Acryon, one of Metal's scumreads, which was being born as a possible alternative to Lal wagon. Why would townMetal not care to even note it in order to both pursue a scumread and defend a townread? (thinking about this, maybe wolfMetal should've also acted on that, but whatever). @Acryon: You can tell me your thoughts on this too P=

@farside: I'm fine with looking at people who didn't vote Lal and going "I think of these is the wolf", at the same time, I agree that actually making a push just based on the associative tell is would be weak (almst but not quite what Metal's doing with West). But:

Lets not forget Metal was not on the wagon either so that is pretty weak reason to find one of X scum on that basis.

Should he not consider the associative tell just because it also points to him?

[VysePresident]

Prod dodging again.

I have a lot of time tomorrow, and while I'm going to be splitting it between multiple games, I should be able to get some real content up here.