Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@farside: No yeah, I meant that the joke->serious was derpy. I totally understand where you are coming from, because in one game I tunnelled on a townAri (an hydra of with him, actually) and him doing that sort of thing was one of the things that really annoyed me. Can't say it's not something he'd do as scum, but that personally makes me feel less scummy about that.

First off I'm having trouble locking my read on Acryon because I feel there's mix of OMGUS and playstyle/personality clash in there.

@Acryon: I'm having trouble understanding the confidence you have in your Ari case, 53 really doesn't read that scummy to me given the earliness of it and that I think "starting convo" is a decent reason to ask about people who were being active and doing more than RVS like me and Ginko at the time, in spite of him feeling good about us. Second, your "that ain't a reaction test, yo" point felt dishonest at first, even if there was a good point in it and makes me feel like you were exaggerating it. Third, I'm glad you aren't making too much out of the "active lurking" because that point was gross to me, but even so, it's still kind of gross to me. @MSpeople: Is it common to question people when they state irl preoccupations and turn that into arguements for scumminess around here (alternatively: Is that a thing scum actually do that much around here?).

Gonna butt in in your debate here: (@West and Acryon)

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

That's nice and I agree, but why aren't you actually answering the question? Saying "West's conception of insencere is wrong" is not telling us why you think Metal is reading genuine to you. While we are talking about Metal, doesn't it bother you that he didn't seem to pursue his Acryon suspicion when an opportunity was presented (to avoid the lynch on his townread Lal too). P-EDIT2: *See at the bottom*

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Why are you questioning something I already did that he already addressed?

How did I ignore it? It's a comment from you. You can feel how you want. What am I supposed to even say to that? "My response was honest, not dishonest like you felt"?

farside made arguments as to why West would maybe not be Lal's teammate based on their interactions. Stop talking to us about how you just disagree with her and aren't dishonest and try to address them. P-EDIT: Oh hey you responded. Whatever.

@farisde

: Ari said Lal left a trail to scummates on her first game as scum, now that I'm quickISOing her on that game again I can see what he means (example [Pandoran was scum too]), I could see scumLal townreading and using scumWests' reasoning, I can also see West seeing the lack of a Westread on Lal's first readslist and questioning it because of a "better me than someone else" sort of thing.

I disagree. People make bad, (...)

I sill agree with this, you are still avoiding the actual question about why Metal reads genuine to you, by just questioning the question. P-EDIT: So gut I gather.

I didn't intentionally dodge there, but what do I say when someone disagrees with my gut. And if you don't think this is clearly saying gut, then you are just an idiot and I can't help you:

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

Considering there is a lot of gut involved in the reads particularly on you/Vyse/Lyserg, I think it would be pretty suspicious if I

could

strongly defend them. There is a reason I was/am pushing for an Ari lynch, which I can and have defended strongly, versus one of any of the three of you which I know I can't.

No. You were asked about this, and you did try to give reasoning not entirely based on gutfeels about the West/Lal d1 interactions (515; weak nebulous reasoning, sure, but still), and you could've told me right there that gut had a lot to do with it, or even before in that same response to farside, instead of going "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner".

   What do you think about Vyse, Ginko and Prawn as possible partners for Lal?

@West: Prawn's vote on Acryon bothers me and put a dent on the idea that Acryon is scum. Talk about it.

P-EDIT2:

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

Do you really think the first sentence is a decent answer to that? Just because "they are correct" doesn't mean they are for the right reasons, this attitude is annoying in that I think that if I suddenly gave a townread with horrible reasoning you'd just take it.

[Honey bee]

Vote count 2.03

acryon (2):

prawneater, West9

Metalcyanide (2):

Aristophanes, Lyserg-Zeroz

Aristophanes (2):

acryon, Metalcyanide

Ginko (1):

YYR

Not voting: Ginko, VysePresident, farside22
With 10 alive It takes 6 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-08 08:07:00)

[Metalcyanide]

Hey checking in and wow I've seemed to miss alot. I'll catch up and get out a post tonight/early morning.

[acryon]

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

What?! Where did I ever say that I have been consistently conveying confidence on wolfWest? If anything, it has always been a lackthereof, which I stated more than once.

Again, when you say that your goal is to push the AriWagon, the West/Lal read is just a little thing on the side that you don't have enough time to focus on. But when you want to invalidate my votes, it's suddenly the torch you want to be carried off.

Is it not very clear that my confidence in you being the wolf has been growing the more I've been talking to you? You're trying to act like confidence levels don't change over time.

[acryon]

@MSpeople: Is it common to question people when they state irl preoccupations and turn that into arguements for scumminess around here (alternatively: Is that a thing scum actually do that much around here?).

Considering the wiki has it listed as a possible definition of active lurking, I'm going to say yes.

Gonna butt in in your debate here: (@West and Acryon)

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

That's nice and I agree, but why aren't you actually answering the question? Saying "West's conception of insencere is wrong" is not telling us why you think Metal is reading genuine to you.

He is reading genuine to me in that his statements sound like he actually believes them. That combined with no apparent attempts to do anything nefarious mean I don't think he's scum. That's just about the definition of a gut-read, which I already explained to West more than once.

No. You were asked about this, and you did try to give reasoning not entirely based on gutfeels about the West/Lal d1 interactions (515; weak nebulous reasoning, sure, but still), and you could've told me right there that gut had a lot to do with it, or even before in that same response to farside, instead of going "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner".

That's some strong assumptions about my notes. I didn't say "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner." I said "but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum." There's a subtle difference there, but the key point is that have in my notes that west was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum is the equivelent of "Wolves: Lal, West" in an excel sheet.

What do you think about Vyse, Ginko and Prawn as possible partners for Lal?

I don't think any of them are her partner. I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated, and without looking with confirmation bias, I couldn't tell you reasons why they would be.

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

Do you really think the first sentence is a decent answer to that? Just because "they are correct" doesn't mean they are for the right reasons, this attitude is annoying in that I think that if I suddenly gave a townread with horrible reasoning you'd just take it.

No, but at a certain point you get tired. I can only dedicate so much time to this game, and walling back and forth takes a lot out of you. Metal's progression and reasoning for not scum-reading me any more seemed very genuine and natural. I have no reason to question it, because it didn't feel like he was trying to buddy and didn't feel off. Ginko's apparent thought process also makes a lot of sense. When you are one of two in a faction, it doesn't really make much sense to hard-push your team-mate D1, and to be the person to initiate it no less. The rest of his process in 459 about the other faction also makes sense, and would seem like a lot of work to go through to make me his buddy.

[farside22]

Can you explain why you didn't say anything about lal using west case against ari and later she retracts that statement. How does that read as scum/scum interaction? Usually I see scum follow town in reads so...???

Lal was clearly inexperienced on this site, so it didn't and doesn't make sense to look at her play like you would someone with more experience or try and place it inside our outside of typical scum play and action. Given that, it

does

make more sense to me to look at West's interaction toward Lal, which I did in 494.

Why the heck not. She obviously played scum before.

Is west more experienced?

[farside22]

Acyron I just checked lal's join date and west join date.
You got some explaining to do.

[West9]

I should mention that I played mafia for about a year on another forum before joining D2

[farside22]

I should mention that I played mafia for about a year on another forum before joining D2

Did acryon know that?

[West9]

Probably not. I am new to this forum.

[West9]

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Why are you questioning something I already did that he already addressed?

Our questions were different enough in tone and in who was saying them that I thought i'd get something different out of him. And I got that he didn't think that talking about West/Lal was worth the town's time.

I could see scumLal townreading and using scumWests' reasoning, I can also see West seeing the lack of a Westread on Lal's first readslist and questioning it because of a "better me than someone else" sort of thing.

How about me calling out Lal's using of my reasoning?

@West: Prawn's vote on Acryon bothers me and put a dent on the idea that Acryon is scum. Talk about it.

Prawn's not scummy enough in my eyes to be in that area where him voting for someone makes me think that person is not scum.

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

What?! Where did I ever say that I have been consistently conveying confidence on wolfWest? If anything, it has always been a lackthereof, which I stated more than once.

I meant consistently conveying your level of confidence. And I ask that because your level of confidence changes when the point that you're making requires a different level of confidence.

I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated

To clarify, these reasons are A) gutread B) that my argument with Acryon started after he presented that gutread

[Ginko]

VLA
-Cheet

[acryon]

Acyron I just checked lal's join date and west join date.
You got some explaining to do.

Just quick posting to say that if you couldn't tell a difference in experience between west and Lal from their posting alone then you aren't using your brain

[acryon]

Didn't mean to be rude but it's just such a ridiculous notion and either you're being completely ignorant or you're playing dumb

[Honey bee]

*Prodding Aristophanes*

[Aristophanes]

*Prodding Aristophanes*

I've been writing a post since, like, 10pm. I'm sorry it took so long. I had no intention of not having completed it until now!

Anyway, sorry in advance to everyone. The next post is gonna be a doozie :S

[Aristophanes]

Replying to stuff. It's not all relevant still or has already been addressed, so if I don't answer something you wanted me to, re-ask it I guess.
Also, V/la for most of the weekend. Will do my best to check in if I can, but may be slightly absent until Monday.

Who is TTH??

My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him

What was it exactly that pinged you on him?

Also, Farside (I believe), you mentioned that Metal and Lal likely weren't scummates as Lal wasn't attacking Metal as she had noted doing in previous games. They've yet to be of the same alignment. She will generally attack him regardless. So I think it's more indicative of them possibly being scummates than not.

You made a huge deal out of people going after werewolves on D1, why has your stance on that changed all of a sudden? You were treating them like third party and now you're not. Why?

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??
There is a literal countdown timer counting to the end of the phase. It tells you exactly how much time is left, regardless of timezone. Why was that so hard to figure out?

What in the world is this point man? :/ Are you calling him scum for not figuring out where the countdown timer was? Lol?

-Cheetohreesix

Can't remember what pinged originally. Not liking his interactions though. I feel they're more than the "just metal being metal" we've seen in past games.
I treated Warewolves as TP because I can split it up easier in my head that way. Stance is still the same, I'm just trying to use terms and stuff that people are into.
In the last bit, yes. I was musing the idea that he saw the timer but was playing dumb to either prolong the day, possibly getting a mislynch from the confusion, or to avoid making the final hammer vote on a scummate. His response seems genuine though so not pursuing that line of thought.

Also when I read ari's last post it reads very derpy.

You basically just described my Mafia career. What does the derp mean to you though?

I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.
----------
Considering Metal didn't even get a chance to post between the time Ari voted him and switched to Lal, I would say that it was

not

a reaction test, since there was figuratively no reaction from it before Ari switched off of it.

As for the active lurking: ... Oh, there's actually a lot of quickposting to apologize for lack of time. Did you mean that?

Yes.

Okay, so to address all this. 1, why would you purposely tunnel? You are saying you'd rather pursue ONLY your main target. This reads as a generally scummy thing to do, as town want to get rid of any scum, regardless if it's their main scum-read, and pursuing those things that feel off, even if not by that main person, is the only way to get things moving in future phases.
I didn't post the vote solely to test Metal. Maybe I should have waited for him to respond before I came in with my follow-up, but I'm rather happy with the results and have no regrets about it. I wantedgeneral reactions to the vote more than his reaction to being voted.
And I've been busy. Wasn't meaning to not post or prod-dodge, but it ended up happening. Sorry I guess?

Acryon who is part of your scum group?
Ari/ginko and metal same question to you 3 as well.

I can see Metal as scum for sure. Acryon, in recent interactions especially, is also up there. Otherwise still trying to get solid reads on a lot of people.

UNVOTE: Aristophanes

I was hoping more people would jump on Aristophanes.

Aristophanes is a bad lynch. Aristophanes is lowhanging fruit and an easy vote-park. We should stop talking about him and we should instead be looking at anyone currently on his wagon.

Based on how many votes were on him, it's impossible for mafia to be with him unless they were bussing D1. Lalendra the werewolf also voted him D1. He's confirmed town for me.

9 voters have been on him at various points in the day (Ginko, acryon, orcinus_theoriginal, West9, VysePresident, Metalcyanide, farside22, Lalendra, metalcyanide) and he's always been in danger of being lynched.

Right now metal and acryon are on him. They are good lynches. Acryon already looked scummy yesterday.

VOTE: acryon

Finally, a man who understands me! XD
Seriously though, I mostly agree with this post, except for the fact that bussing on D1 is a huge possibility. I mean, it's not what happened, but in theory it should be considered and I am curious as to why it didn't cross your mind. Also, you listed Metal twice in that tally of people who voted me.
I think being conf-town is a little much, that's really what's getting at me right now. Even in the standard town vs scum setup, finding someone you can trust as conftown rarely happens so early. I'd think it almost impossible in the tri-party setup going on here. So, why the conf-town read?

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

More in a few hours.

Vyse, what is the point of this kind of speculation? You are, in doing this, setting up your own narrative.
Also, if this means you're assuming the other Warewolf is from this site, why look into Ginko? Seer can only see WW vs Non-WW. This makes no sense to me.
Who from this site do you think would be Lal's buddy and why?

Lal's switch to Ari was a reaction, but I think, if anything, he was looking for an opportunity as scum. And he may have thought it was likely someone would bite on his naked vote. The problem is, if he is town, he should expect people to jump on him for that, so I don't buy it as a reaction test from town in that way.

Okay, so here's my 2 cents worth. Whether town or scum, that baited a reaction and got the desired result. If I were town, of course I would expect people to jump on me! That's kinda the point of a REACTION test! If I were scum, what would be the point? I'd be baiting either the two wolfs, or someone from the town's populace into reacting. If I got a town bite, I'd probably end up under fire for leading a mislynch if it went through as it did, and I'd likely be dead that phase otherwise. If I somehow got the scum reaction from one of the two Warewolves, sure, it'd look good, but it's be an unnecessary risk as scum, putting me into the limelight for days to come. I just don't see what you dislike about it so much.

@Acryon,
(P.Edit: I was gonna spoiler this because I got way too carried away when writing this portion. It didn't work :S Sorry to everyone who has to read this.)

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.

Because that's something I'm trying to figure out on my own. I'd much rather get town to move forward on the Ari lynch, which I am significantly more confident in. Trying to pursue any and every scum-read just doesn't get you anywhere.

[quote="In post 558, farside22"]I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument

I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.

I didn't intentionally dodge there, but what do I say when someone disagrees with my gut. And if you don't think this is clearly saying gut, then you are just an idiot and I can't help you:

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

Considering there is a lot of gut involved in the reads particularly on you/Vyse/Lyserg, I think it would be pretty suspicious if I

could

strongly defend them. There is a reason I was/am pushing for an Ari lynch, which I can and have defended strongly, versus one of any of the three of you which I know I can't.

VOTE: Acryon

OMGUS at its finest ladies and gentlemen. Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy). Luckily, you have helped me know where to steer the town to find the likely second wolf after we get our scum.[/quote]
I dislike so much of this post it's unbelievable!
How is talking about something at all counter-productive? How is it better than figuring things out on your own? The latter helps only yourself unless you come out and share your thoughts, and you may miss things or make considerations not everyone will. Having an open conversation about your thoughts is a huge way to actually find scum.
[Quick note: I say scum a lot. When I say it, I generally mean "any anti-town party". I know you guys generally mean "mafiascum" when you say it, so I'm trying to be considerate of that and adapt my terminology accordingly. When saying "Scum" though, please assume I mean all anti-town parties, and not "Mafia" specifically.]
On a similar topic, that last sentence about finding the second Wolf after you find scum. This comes off as extremely cocky and full of yourself, and I feel like you're almost too sure of this read on West. That, plus the fact that you seem to think the Warewolves, which happen to be the party that Controls The Night Kill, are of a lesser issue than scum themselves seems weird to me. First off, scum is scum. Why would one group of them present any difference of threat level than another? Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?
Generally, I see you as being pretty disingenuous and don't like your overall interactions.
VOTE: Acryon

someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.

This is entirely true.

What do you think about Vyse, Ginko and Prawn as possible partners for Lal?

I don't think any of them are her partner. I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated, and without looking with confirmation bias, I couldn't tell you reasons why they would be.

So, what you're saying is "I didn't have it in my notes and my mind is thus closed to the possibility of them being Warewolves." and "Well, I'm sure if I looked for something I'd find it, so I'm not gonna look for it." Basically you've already tunnelled on what you wanted to and don't feel like scumhunting anymore. Fun.

And here we are, all caught up (finally)!
Toss the inevitable questions my way! I'll do my best to answer them in a timely manner, but as I said, will be mostly V/la until Monday.

[Metalcyanide]

Ok so catching up and answering/responding to things that I see.

From Lyserg post 536

@Metal: But you don't have to be mad about it :C, sorry for continuing to harp on this: I think you are referring to your posts starting from 420, right? My impression of sideline-y-ness...sidelineness(?), starts from before those, for example, when Ginko asks you about your change of reads on Acryon would've been a good time to chime in on the Acryon wagon. Also, I didn't realize the mod posts had that cool timer thing until after the dayphase had ended xP... and thou it made me feel really dumb at first, I do echo Ginko's questioning of Ari questioning you on that

.

Wasn't mad about anything and don't worry about harping me someone needs to. Anyways maybe I should have said more but I thought the way I responded to Ginko was okay, I'm going to try to be less sideline y (spell check said that was correct lol) going forward I hate not being a part of the game but damn real life (exception is the Super Bowl I need to watch the Patriots kick ass and celebrate or cry if that doesn't happen)

From Vyse post 542:

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

So you're saying that Orc/TTH was killed because whoever the other wolf is has played with TTH before.....interesting theory

From Farside post 547:

Acryon: who do you see as scum together and why?

I'm looking for ari, ginko and metal to anwser that as well.

I'm still thinking our other wolf is either West, Ginko or Vyse this is entirely based on the voting from D1.

@West

you've brought up you have a problem with this more than anyone else. Why? I making a read based off of the votes how is this "fake and dishonest". I guess you can call it lazy but at the same time you've gotten real upset about it.
For Mafia I'm still aboard the Ari train but may have to put this on hold. YYR could also be since he hasn't been around could be going for a lurking strategy. I liked Acyons arguments about Vyse

I'm going to vote VOTE: West. You being bothered by my reads so much is telling to me.

ninja by Ari need to read that

[Metalcyanide]

That last post from Ari is more the Ari I've come to know. No questions at this time.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Prawn: Can you update me on your thoughts on both Acryon and Metal (and relative to each other) and why you'd choose Acryon in your last vote as opposed to Metal?

It's late so I'm gonna sleep on where my vote will be next and decide tomorrow.
@Metal: OK, cool ^^. Here's what I'm looking for: Thoughts on the points Ginko/Vyse were doing about Acryon during D1? (or, your thoughts on that at that moment).

YYR could also be since he hasn't been around could be going for a lurking strategy

No.

First off: SO... about this prods and V/LAs

Spoiler:

I love you guys, don't leave me

("spoiler=" tag Ari xD)
Second. As promised: ATTN FARSIDE:
... *prod prod*

I'm not gonna address stuff in depth now because "quickpost" and skimming over (it's turning out long, but w/e ^^' ):
@Acryon: I mean, I know that fits the definition of "active lurking" but that's kind of a nonanswer (and cut the sass here, it makes your dis/honesty harder to parse =P), the wiki only tells me it is a thing that at some point existed or was noted. I really almost voted you after you said "Yes", not even because the rest of the discussion also had stuff I didn't like: that is how gross that argument is for me and my disbelief led me to ask one more time, finally I at least could understand if this is a thing of the current meta (wiki doesn't necessarily reflect that; if you can point me to another game with townAcryon doing that, that'd be cool too). About the wording I used on the notes thing: fair enough, the main point still stands in that it feels like a retcon of your read in comparison to how you responded in 515.

Not sure what farside's going with asking about West's experience in mafia. West himself explained early D1 about D2 people having played before. People have been talking about Lal as newbie a lot too I feel, doesn't feel like either should be a secret to anybody at this point.

@West: Eh, the answer he gave you is not that different from what he told me about not wanting to muck up the thread (which sorta implies the same), thou I get why you are mad about the answer anyways. You called her out on using your reasoning, that was... iIrc that was after her wagon had already outgrown Ari's. It's a fair point, but that fact makes me wonder if that wasn't a good time to start bussing. I'm not pushing that you are the wolf here, but I don't think you are confNonWolf or whatever.

Oh. Ari did a comeback.

That, plus the fact that you seem to think the Warewolves, which happen to be the party that Controls

The Night Kill

, are of a lesser issue than scum themselves seems weird to me. First off, scum is scum.

Why would one group of them present any difference of threat level than another?

Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?

I mean. You are gonna have to tell me about the thought process behind your questions (not only the bolded) after Acryon addresses them, because what?

@Ari, I need you to take a step back and consider the possibility of you feeling awful about Acryon coming at least partly from an OMGUS or playstyle clash place. A lot of Aryon feels disingenuous and he has an habit of giving non-answers to direct questions, but something about West feels off too, can you give me your thoughts on him?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm dumb, farside already told me about Ginko. Need to sleep. @farside: I liked that he was bothering to do the summary of the Lal cases too, I think the way he sorta dismissed it all on post... 347 just kinda undermined the effort in my view and kinda shaped my impression of Ginko/Lal interactions, but now that I'm quickISOing him again I realise he's still discussing more Lalendra related stuff later anyways. Sleepy time now.

[Aristophanes]

That was badly written on my part. My apologies.
What I'm saying is that he seems to be more worried about Mafia than Warewolves (which doesn't make sense to me because Warewolves have the nightly kill) and that the survival of both presents the same overall hindrance to town's eventual win, which doesn't seem to be a big issue to him. Both need to be eliminated to win as town.
Basically I'm just not getting his logic.

I do, maybe, need to take a step back. I suppose a lot of this could just be playstyles clashing. I do want to hear from Acryon on this stuff though, and will have to decide afterwards what I think about him. The vote stands for now though.
I hadn't realized I hadn't really said anything to/about West in that post. I'm gonna have to do a readback and see where I stand on him, because I've already had drastic shifts in that a few times.
From what I can see he's resumed his usual town-leadery, asks a lot of questions role, which I usually like. Without looking back though, that's all I've got on him.

[Metalcyanide]

First off: SO... about this prods and V/LAs

Spoiler:

I love you guys, don't leave me

No one is leaving you we just got stuff to do unless you know something we don't

Spoiler:

[farside22]

Acyron I just checked lal's join date and west join date.
You got some explaining to do.

Just quick posting to say that if you couldn't tell a difference in experience between west and Lal from their posting alone then you aren't using your brain

Vote: acryon

[acryon]

Yes.

Okay, so to address all this. 1, why would you purposely tunnel? You are saying you'd rather pursue ONLY your main target. This reads as a generally scummy thing to do, as town want to get rid of any scum, regardless if it's their main scum-read, and pursuing those things that feel off, even if not by that main person, is the only way to get things moving in future phases.
I didn't post the vote solely to test Metal. Maybe I should have waited for him to respond before I came in with my follow-up, but I'm rather happy with the results and have no regrets about it. I wantedgeneral reactions to the vote more than his reaction to being voted.
And I've been busy. Wasn't meaning to not post or prod-dodge, but it ended up happening. Sorry I guess?[/quote]
Tunneling can be bad, but I think it makes sense to pursue my main target. How do I get the town to vote you if I'm pursuing several people all at once? Not to mention the fact that I am considerably more confident that you are scum than anyone else.

@Acryon,
I dislike so much of this post it's unbelievable!
How is talking about something at all counter-productive? How is it better than figuring things out on your own? The latter helps only yourself unless you come out and share your thoughts, and you may miss things or make considerations not everyone will. Having an open conversation about your thoughts is a huge way to actually find scum.

I agree, but when my reasons for feeling certain ways about other players are so much less mature than my reasons for you, it doesn't make sense to me to muck up the water like that. We foundscum. Let's lynch him.

On a similar topic, that last sentence about finding the second Wolf after you find scum. This comes off as extremely cocky and full of yourself, and I feel like you're almost too sure of this read on West. That, plus the fact that you seem to think the Warewolves, which happen to be the party that Controls The Night Kill, are of a lesser issue than scum themselves seems weird to me. First off, scum is scum. Why would one group of them present any difference of threat level than another? Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?
Generally, I see you as being pretty disingenuous and don't like your overall interactions.

Actually it's the exact opposite. Wolves are definitely the bigger threat, because if we kill the last wolf there is no NK, so obviously that should say something about how confident I am in you being scum compared to West being wolf. You don't get people to agree with you by being timid. Based on play and very strong gut, I feel you are definitely scum, and while my reasons may lack certain pieces that I wish I had, confidence can sort of stand in their place to ensure we don't miss out on a scum-lynch just because I couldn't get everything I wanted. Which I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem with if you had posted more. If people looked at your ISO, they would be hard-pressed to see that you're not basically active lurking 101.

So, what you're saying is "I didn't have it in my notes and my mind is thus closed to the possibility of them being Warewolves." and "Well, I'm sure if I looked for something I'd find it, so I'm not gonna look for it." Basically you've already tunnelled on what you wanted to and don't feel like scumhunting anymore. Fun.

Nope. Didn't say that.