Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[acryon]

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

Acryon: what did you make of west/lal interaction during day 1?

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

[Honey bee]

Vote count 2.01

Aristophanes (4):

farside22, acryon, Metalcyanide, prawneater

Ginko (1):

YYR

Metalcyanide (1):

West9

Not voting: Aristophanes, Ginko, Lyserg-Zeroz, VysePresident
With 10 alive It takes 6 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-08 08:07:00)

[Aristophanes]

So, I'm at L-2 already? Geeze.
I'm gonna be right upfront with this. If you guys want to kill me because of all of my apparently scummy moves, go for it. I've played games before where I was suspected by most, but fought for myself multiple days in a row, basically taking over the boards. It let the actual scum slip through the cracks a lot easier and I'm not gonna repeat that. I am town though (yes, I know that's what everyone will say, but w/e).

Anyway, I passed out early last night and didn't read back still. I may or may not bother to at this point. Regardless, will answer what I can.

West: My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him and was curious how people would react (obviously). The quick defense by Lal made me think I) that she was scum and ii) that Metal was a scummate. I could still see it.
All the "buddying" and talk of their personal history could have easily been to throw us onto different trails and just write off their interactions as "irl friends". I know I was giving them quite the benefit of the doubt for a while there.
Also, Farside (I believe), you mentioned that Metal and Lal likely weren't scummates as Lal wasn't attacking Metal as she had noted doing in previous games. They've yet to be of the same alignment. She will generally attack him regardless. So I think it's more indicative of them possibly being scummates than not.

Farside, you requested a reads list, yes?
Ill see what I can do. Right now Metal is up near the top. Other than that I don't have much more than a bunch of nulls, leaning slightly in different directions.

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??
There is a literal countsown timer counting to the end of the phase. It tells you exactly how much time is left, regardless of timezone. Why was that so hard to figure out?
Also, thanks. Still tired, but I'm here at least! And this snow, isn't it grand?
Oh, and what are your thoughts on Acryon now that we have an Orcinus flip? Are you still grouping the two as being on the same team?

[Aristophanes]

And I'm dumb and forgot..

VOTE: Metal

[farside22]

Unvote

I want ari to finish and frankly that was one of his best post this far to take pressure off and reevaluate a few people.

[Metalcyanide]

Lyserg and Ari asked me about Acryon. Yes, my opionion of Acrycon has changed since Orc flipped town. It truely looked like thier interactions were teamed based but since Orc could not have known what team Acryon is on the interactions look more innocent. So I'm taking Acryon off my scum list for the time being.

Ari:

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??

Yes this was a stupid question on my part and I realized it well after the day ended. It is quite possible the dumbest thing I've asked in a week.

West:

Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?

No you are no longer under the radar but you are one of the few not to vote for Lal. So as far as I'm concerned a 2 man team wouldn't vote for each other on D1, espically when there was 2 other wagons there was a chance of happening.

[West9]

West:

Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?

No you are no longer under the radar but you are one of the few not to vote for Lal. So as far as I'm concerned a 2 man team wouldn't vote for each other on D1, espically when there was 2 other wagons there was a chance of happening.

haha, wow. that is one forced scumread. How about at 337? You can't really argue that I was under the radar at this point. What was the reason for the scumread?

@Lyserg on Lal/Vyse pairing. The things that bother me about these two is Lal essentially not paying attention to Vyse except to occasionally say "he should talk more" (I also noticed that this happened to prawn) and the way that Vyse argued against Lal's wagon, which I've already talked about. So, I could see them being a pairing

West: My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him

Why? You claim that your scumread now is about his associative tells with Lal. What gave you the initial scumread?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm being lazy and haven't reread everything yet P=
@Acryon: Eh, I still feel like you are exaggrating with the whole "slips" thing. I also agreed with the "scum would be more careful" at the end there 0.0 (also, something that reads dishonest is not the same as something that reads like a slip). Somone talk at me more about this, give me a second opinion of his thoughts on me or something, @farside/Young/Ginko/whoever, because this is making me all OMGUS-y...

   Also, can you give me a summary of your case on Ari? I remember your vote post having the fishing for reactions tint to it and it being not that grand for the confidence you are showing for it, can't remember you being explicit about more of your reasons to suspect him.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time.

Hmm... what were your reasons to suspect West and Lal were scumbuddies before (when you talked about West's placement on your readslist)?

@Metal: You said you didn't like the two other wagons going on at the time, I get you didn't like the Lal one, but what about the Acryon one Ginko and Vyse tried to start?
*bleeps & bloops* VOTE: Metal

@Ginko: Is the scumread/lean/whatever on Vyse because of the associative tell with Lal or is the more to it?

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

[farside22]

Ari and lyse: do you guys see scum buddy up/defend each other often?


Admittedly I'm feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

[farside22]

Also rereading ari's post about metal I have a question towards metal.

Metal: did you ever wonder why lal wasn't attacking you? I believe you 2 played 2 games prior to this. If so was lal scum in both, town in both or town and scum?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Hmm...
I don't know if buddying is that common and I also can't recall scum-scum defenses being specially common either, or not to where I'd say it's a particular part of D2forums' meta anyways, but I still don't wanna just go "that's too obvious for scum". I've been dumb scum and defended a partner before (to the "too obvious" point), and I've seen casual slight defenses being thrown around in games. I think looking for alt wagons or mostly ignoring each other is prolly a more general and common approach and I'm generally paranoid of bussing because I've seen it work so well before, but I've been having a hard time believing Lal's partner was super eager to bus her (a combo of the setup, whoever his partner is either seeing her as sorta newbish or a complete stranger and the lack of daytalk maybe being in the way of giving each other warnings and coordinate that kind of thing, but maybe this is just my personal too considerate view on the matter).

I've seen scumMetal buddying before (to townCheet on the game where he and I were scumbuddies), but I'm not sure if he'd do that with Lal and I initially felt like he was genuinely trying to protect Lal (albeit in a questionable way). In the wolfhunting front, I'm more inclined to look into people who didn't vote Lal, and I also can't recall any of the Lal votes feeling bus-y... I should look at that wagon again thou... I don't care much for stuff against Lal that happened after your switch from Ari to Lal. Do you think wolf-Prawn wouldn't have hammered Lal in spite of her fate being pretty much sealed at that point?

Also, you never fully got back at me about the "not wolf" people thing P=

[Metalcyanide]

Lyserg:

@Metal: You said you didn't like the two other wagons going on at the time, I get you didn't like the Lal one, but what about the Acryon one Ginko and Vyse tried to start?

Even though I had Acryon on my scum list at the time I was and currently am more on bored with the Ari wagon. Also the Acryon wagon kind of came out of left field so I was a little wary of jumping on bored right then.

Farside:

Metal: did you ever wonder why lal wasn't attacking you? I believe you 2 played 2 games prior to this. If so was lal scum in both, town in both or town and scum?

Lal was scum in her very first game and I called her out on it (she then blew me up because she was a bomb). In her second game she and I were town and she hammered me on D1 because I messed up a play that made me look like scum (I still don't think so but whatever). She didn't attack me in either game of those games so not attacking me here wasn't something I payed attention to. She definitely was acting like her town game againn though, so I think she just used her noobness and my analysis to her to try to keep me off of her. Fooled me this time.

Also West I'm not forcing a scum read. At the time I still thought you were a bit under the radar. You've obviously been more involved since then, your just on the scum list for different reasons.

[VysePresident]

I'm currently going over the thread. I'll try to have a post done by tonight, but prod-dodging just in case.

[VysePresident]

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

[farside22]

Hmm...
I don't know if buddying is that common and I also can't recall scum-scum defenses being specially common either, or not to where I'd say it's a particular part of D2forums' meta anyways, but I still don't wanna just go "that's too obvious for scum". I've been dumb scum and defended a partner before (to the "too obvious" point), and I've seen casual slight defenses being thrown around in games. I think looking for alt wagons or mostly ignoring each other is prolly a more general and common approach and I'm generally paranoid of bussing because I've seen it work so well before, but I've been having a hard time believing Lal's partner was super eager to bus her (a combo of the setup, whoever his partner is either seeing her as sorta newbish or a complete stranger and the lack of daytalk maybe being in the way of giving each other warnings and coordinate that kind of thing, but maybe this is just my personal too considerate view on the matter).

I've seen scumMetal buddying before (to townCheet on the game where he and I were scumbuddies), but I'm not sure if he'd do that with Lal and I initially felt like he was genuinely trying to protect Lal (albeit in a questionable way). In the wolfhunting front, I'm more inclined to look into people who didn't vote Lal, and I also can't recall any of the Lal votes feeling bus-y... I should look at that wagon again thou... I don't care much for stuff against Lal that happened after your switch from Ari to Lal. Do you think wolf-Prawn wouldn't have hammered Lal in spite of her fate being pretty much sealed at that point?

Also, you never fully got back at me about the "not wolf" people thing P=

I did respond about west and metal if you read my post and why I didn't see them as wolf with lal.

We'll I can't recall much about prawn saying anything about lal.
Lal's reaction to my comment about prawn, leans me towards not wolf together.

Right now I'm question yyr'svote on lal because he hasn't really said much.

[acryon]

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time.

Hmm... what were your reasons to suspect West and Lal were scumbuddies before (when you talked about West's placement on your readslist)?

I can't say for sure what I was thinking then, because it's just what I wrote down in my spreadsheet at the time for who Lal's likely buddy(s) were, and it wasn't based on anything

particularly

in-depth; I just needed a spot for everyone. I imagine it had something to do with her leaving West off of her initial readslist, as well as her followup in 190, combined with the aforementioned West comments.

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

I've played with TTH and I know that she can be capable of some really good analysis.

   Also, can you give me a summary of your case on Ari? I remember your vote post having the fishing for reactions tint to it and it being not that grand for the confidence you are showing for it, can't remember you being explicit about more of your reasons to suspect him.

I thought 53 was very off, so I voted to apply some pressure and see what we got out of Ari. Ari was voting Metal, but then, after I voted and West expressed some suspicion, Ari quickly jumped aboard the Lal wagon to steer away from himself. The rest of his posts that weren't answering direct questions were pretty active lurky. Post 53 pinged me as scum, and nothing after that convinced me that it wasn't from scum.

[Ginko]

VOTE: Ginko

Longish post when I wake up. zzz

How's that going?
This whole *voting for someone, not really explaining it and then leaving*-thing is an interesting new strategy.
Lack of any kind of analysis on your end of Lalendra and then coming in with another naked vote today is.. ridiculously underwhelming. Yeah, I know, you get annoyed at people having expectations from your play, but I don't think it should be too much to ask for you to explain your votes in a game of mafia.
Zzzzz.
Why did you think Lalendra was worth a vote when you made your's?
What do you make of West/Acryon/farside?

My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him

What was it exactly that pinged you on him?

Also, Farside (I believe), you mentioned that Metal and Lal likely weren't scummates as Lal wasn't attacking Metal as she had noted doing in previous games. They've yet to be of the same alignment. She will generally attack him regardless. So I think it's more indicative of them possibly being scummates than not.

You made a huge deal out of people going after werewolves on D1, why has your stance on that changed all of a sudden? You were treating them like third party and now you're not. Why?

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??
There is a literal countsown timer counting to the end of the phase. It tells you exactly how much time is left, regardless of timezone. Why was that so hard to figure out?

What in the world is this point man? :/ Are you calling him scum for not figuring out where the countdown timer was? Lol?

Also, you never fully got back at me about the "not wolf" people thing P=

If it makes you feel better, I'm not wolf either c: bark bark.

@farside

, given that D1 lynch puts an insane amount of pressure on last wolf if it lands on their only scummate, I think that the incentive to defend your scumpartner might be higher than it normally be. Do you agree or disagree? Also, why did Ari's last post make you feel better about him? >.< I feel like a pariah constantly on the outside of the popular opinion on things. q.q

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

Kind of? We've never been alive at the same time in a game together.

Reading up on the West/Lal interactions that farside was talking about sometime today after homework/school things.
West/Young seem best candidates for wolf to me at the moment.
Ari is pinging me. Need to read up on Acryon again, but I remember feeling slightly better about him.
Someone should pitch me Metalcase so I have more homework.

-Cheetohreesix

[farside22]

Ginko: ari made me feel better for comment about metal and how he thought about there interaction.

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Also when I read ari's last post it reads very derpy.

[acryon]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Well he would gain the bus that some may believe since there is a very real chance Ari gets lynched today. But I don't think metal is scum or wolf FWIW.

[farside22]

Oh whether wolf would defend day one. Sorry I forgot about that question.
Things I would not expect, wolf to attack wolf from the get go (talk acryon out there) minor interaction (newb reasoning with lal there), low under the radar player from scum busty when they see lal pressured, maybe part of the counter wagon, maybe hops on to be inconspicuous (see both hapen).
When lynch gets closer maybe push on counter wagon more if part of it.

That is what I'd look for and will be looking at tomorrow.

[farside22]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Well he would gain the bus that some may believe since there is a very real chance Ari gets lynched today. But I don't think metal is scum or wolf FWIW.

Why is metal a town read?

[acryon]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Well he would gain the bus that some may believe since there is a very real chance Ari gets lynched today. But I don't think metal is scum or wolf FWIW.

Why is metal a town read?

It's more that his posts say he isn't scum than they say he is town. Since we nailed a wolf and I'm quite certain we have a scum pegged, I'm working off of natural chemistry and associative tells between players more than I normally would. Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine, and I see no scummy agenda in his posting.

[farside22]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

Is this a comment to me?

[Honey bee]

.