Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(Future-EDIT: Hi hi, meant to finish this post earlier but real life and family stuff got in the way, also: Whoa, the ISOs are on the posts description, quotes come with a link to the post by default and there's even a vote format button, all of this fanciness...)

iii) Oh sure, stack votes this early. That seems like a good game plan.

If anything, I would

Vote: Gliffie

because he scares me.

And of course, I get ninja'd by West.

Dammit! You got me! Obviously scum right here.
I obviously should have seen that coming!

*checking vote-count*
*Boop*: VOTE: Aristophanes
Point three feels all odd to me; I don't like how defensive/snarky/whatever that looks, to the point I feel it's unnecessarily trying to add content against some RVS vote. It reads like you are way against stacking votes during this stage (and it's not like there was any other vote besides Ginko's in there) and I'm not sure I get why, nor do I remember you having displayed this kind of position before (thou I haven't played in a fairly long while, at least not in a way that I'd pay attention to this kind of stuff). Went back to check other games and I see you saying things like you don't like to be the second to random-vote on someone because when you first see it done you go like "well, it's already done, so what's the point", which feels like a less strong and more personal position about it than what you wrote here.

Future-EDIT: Well, now he is also kinda being like that with the Ginko votes, well whatever, I'll just post this and see what happens. I also don't get what he's trying to say to Ginko there with his last post, but maybe that's 'cause I'm tired.

@West: Since this was your RVS vote and now it has amassed three votes and I think you've played more recent games with Aristo than me: Am I reading too much into that one point or into the tone of that one point? Is Aristo's apparent disdain for early wagons new or did I forget it existed?

I'm fine with that, because then you can trust me

I don't like that this doesn't acknowledge the mafia faction and instead shows that you might be seeing the game in a werewolf/not-werewolf kinda way. Someone tell me if I'm reading too much into this post too, because it also feels like it could be just loljokes.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^Hmm... I mean, I honestly would've preferred it if you told me those were just loljokes (there's also that even cop roles have their multitude of variations, so I still somehow expected people to read what the one town PR does, but whatevs, maybe that's I'm being too strict here).

His tone is bugging me, and I'm disliking the way he's engaging at present. More on that later.

I'm gonna be self-important and say I don't like that your reasons seem somewhat derivative of mine; his tone is bugging me partly for meta reasons (since we come from the same forums), so here's looking forward to your more in depth explanation. Also, is Ari at L-2? Because I feel like that's important to know.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I feel like that's important to know.

Ooh Lyserg, getting antsy already?

Not really. It was just a lazy remainder/question (in the sense that I didn't want to bother checking ... it was actually L-3, but whatevs).

It seems more like you said the tone of one portion of what he was saying felt off and then the rest of what you were saying felt more logical based, whereas here it sounds more like you're saying his entire tone feels off. Is it just the snarky point that you mentioned or is there more to it than than?

I had that portion of his post in mind when mentioning "the tone" both times I did, but the way he talked about the votes on you added a bit to that feeling.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

i was waiting for people to call me out and that's already happened so we can talk about whatever

I'm curious and since that's already done, I'm just gonna ask: Was there a plan and a predefined read you thought you'd get from players calling you out or were you just waiting for anything?

UNVOTE: Aristophanes
I can see

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

being said for the sake of getting reactions, so I'm somewhat willing to buy his "testing the waters" thing and to feel retroactively less odd about that first thing he said to Ginko.
VOTE: West
How about you? With "heavy heavy backpedalling" I assume you mean he was lying. I feel like you are exaggerating that... or maybe I'm just too naïve (or maybe both... probably both things). Ari is doing that thing where he seems to take some silliness way too literally but I remember him being a bit like that when he was on the Ladd hydra, so I'm not making much out of that, are you?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^Have you played with VysePresident before? Do you have any impression of him yet?

As for Cheet/Ginko:
Looking back on it his "Why're you jumping on me for this right now?" question feels weird, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
Other than that, I don't have much thoughts on the Ginko hydra yet. I feel like I'm terrible at reading Cheet (and just had mixed success with Johnny), so I'm also never too eager on throwing reads at either of them. I'm waiting for the moment where he will state his real scumsuspect or where he'll make a "grand-case" sort of post where he'll actually make a push for a lynch. I also don't have any trouble with him not calling you out and can buy that he didn't want to interfere with your tests and/or had trouble reading you, mainly because I felt more or less the same way about you (read bits of your pasts games and you struck me like a wild-card sort of player).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^No on both things? *sadface*

Eh, I'd have to check again, wasn't paying much attention to titles or numbers, I just clicked your profile and skimmed some of the games where you posted, I recall marathon games (whatever that means) I think a mini or something with "ninja" on the title, and a game where I think you replaced someone and then got replaced by someone with "kitty" on her name. Why?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

ok

tell me why i struck you as a wild-card player and what that phrase means to you

Hmm... it's just the impression I got really, probably more because of the Kitty game, as for its meaning: Mostly that you'd do generally unexpected things or that I might have a hard time understanding your thought processes.

I also like Lyserg's point on the backpedaling, even if I'm still really paranoid of him q.q

I mean, you questioned that first.

What do you think of Ari's "testing the waters" response to the votes? (feel free to answer this after West has responded to you, if you feel like that's better). You said something that implied predicting Ari's vote on Orcinus: How do you read that vote?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Trying to figure out how to feel about West sticking so strongly to his backpedalling point... the fact that no matter the alignment people could still be honestly scum-hunting makes this even more annoying.

@Orcinus: I don't really feel as strongly as you do about the Ginko baiting Ari point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, when you said he was baiting him that was about your questions on #77, right? (so the point would be that by not doing those things Ginko was just letting Ari get into a bad position(?)), on the other hand, @Ginko, you should:

Can I come back to you on this?

Do ^that already (unless you already did and I'm dumb for not realising), because I don't want to sit here speculating about what you meant with it or put words in your mouth about it.

intercepting that question. i was an easy vote.

Oh hey, that's the kind of unexpected moves I was talking about, although it's a small thing. I'm pretty sure you already knew but just didn't care, but when a question is asked to someone in specific I want that specific someone to answer it first... but then again:

q.q
Let's just say that Johnny and I have another bet going and I can let you know when it pans out.

<.< Why are you being silly? I expect that bet and whatever you are trying to do here are good reasons to refuse the question...

I only voted for you when Lyserg did because I was hoping to get responses from you without you having any kind of direct pressure on you. Once Lyserg started voting for you, there was no point in waiting as your responses would be influenced by that.

... Whoops.
*Ginko goes V/LA* Bummer :c

@Aristo: I feel like you are exaggerating the "sheepherding" point, but w/e, just answer Orc's stuff, I suppose.

@Orcinus: Give me your thoughts on West, please.

@West: Can you give me your thoughts on Orcinus, and maybe answer these questions: Who's your second scumsuspect (alternatively: Is there anyone you'd be OK with lynching if not your current vote?), do you have any townread?
@Acryon: Same questions^. The fact that you felt the need to say you hadn't realised you were "following Orc's vote" rather than just... well, not say it, also makes me interested in your read or experience with him (if any).
Metal should totes do something.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I said it because the first time I followed him I said I was sheeping him, and was joking. Wanted it to be clear that I was not.

Clear that it wasn't a joke? I mean, the tone and context is completely different from that of your RVS vote anyways, but whatevs. The person you sheeped was totes Gliffie and not Orc, but main point of what you said stays the same I suppose (and yeh, I can be fairly nitpicky at times P=, thou except for maybe my first two posts I'm not sure which of my stuff could feel super nitpicky to you... eh, if you feel like some of those are suspicious you should like, engage me more in conversation about it or something...).

@Orcinus: Please answer question about your thoughts on West.

@mod:

Sorry, this just isn't working out for me. I'm gonna have to sub out. I hope I can play with you guys again when I have more time to spare.

Bye Gliffie :C

I was going to say something about how the Johnny side of Ginko feels terribly absent but then I thought that maybe there was a reason they are playing as hydra in the first place... Johnny is cool thou, he should totes post more C:

@Metal:

acryon & orcinus_theoriginal: feels like they are on the same team I don't know if that is town, mafia, or wolf but they seem to be on the same page.

Acryon has my best town read and to stick with my reasoning above puts Orcinus in the town category as well.

Can you expand on your first quote? While I can understand feeling like a couple of players are possible allies, I'm not sure I get how this can also apply to townies on a game without masons or anything like that. Associative read aside, why is Acryon a town-read to you in the first place?

Can you tell me exactly which of Ari's posts or points are sloppy to you?
(also, super belated happy birthday to Lalendra xP).

I'm all sleepy and Ari isn't back yet...
@West again: (context for others: Ari was part of a hydra (Ladd), we were both town, I got really mad at him for, among other things, seeming to take an RVS too literally and then making dumb points about it [love ya Ari C: ], long story short, I tunneled on him during D1 and still pursued his lynch many times up to D4 where he finally got mislynched) Ari's reactions to RVS and being all silly about that reminds me of my interactions with Ladd (Ari-head) early D1 that one game and I can't help but be reminded of that situation when I see your interactions with him. What's your take on the possibility of your issues with him and his reactions to RVS being a similar case of just weird town-Ari. (P-EDIT I got distracted ISOing and stuff only to realise there was a new post in your ISO, I wanted to sleep already ;-;. I ISO'd myself and can see that making sense at least from some of my attitudes in my last post... tbh I've been feeling a bit different from my usual self, maybe it was just my imagination or something subtle enough that only I felt it...)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I want to be stubborn and stick to my West vote, because I still don't like the "heavy heavy" point and I've changed my mind about scum-West in the past and didn't want it to happen again... but this is going nowhere, I actually like his point about Ari's advisory tone. UNVOTE: West. On the other hand:

@Orcinus

: Why are you ignoring my requests for a West read? Bleh: VOTE: orcinus_theoriginal

I was going to say something about how I didn't want to think Ari was as dense as some of the arguments were making him out to be, but then the Metal vote happened (instead of the promised response to stuff);

@Ari

: Watcha doing? You scum trying to set up Metal? Because I mean, that just seems too obvious for a scum/scum distancing vote... something something WiFoM and I hate you. Also, you should totally answer Ginko's question about New Year's because I'm curious about what he's gonna do with that.

Metal leans Town for playing Anti-scum

I'm not sure I get this:

@Vyse

, could you explain more about Metal playing "anti-scum" please?

Lalendra's read of me misunderstands my initial vote on Ari, it was not about what Ari said being inherently anti-town, it was about it feeling weird and somewhat out of character for me when coming from Ari. Btw,

@Lalendra

:

everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together

I mean, unless everyone is somehow on the same scumteam, if one of us had lied, there would've been a good chance others would've called the liar out, so the risk of lying seems like a dumb one to take; this seems like a stretch.

Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle

I'm dumb, so this just seems weird and I don get it, can you walk me through why you are suspecting him of specifically being a werewolf?


"Questions have purpose" feels like the new buzzword... buzzphrase? I suppose I understand what Ginko is saying, but I don't feel like I've arrived at a particularly interesting place or done anything particularly interesting for him to townread me for that.

@Ginko

: I also don't like how that read is the same for Vyse except you expressed being less confident because multiball there, but didn't do that with me (where even you seemed to specifically downgrade your read of him more to the null side because of that)

Yo,

@Prawneater

: have you played with other people in this playerlist before?

@farside

: Could you explain strong town reads please.
Also, can you expand on why this:

Example was when he lays down votes without saying much, then ask a ton of questions when ari questioned it. Then orc says he expected someone to question him.
Okay....weird way to reaction hunt.

Makes you go "mmmmmm"?
(*previews* ... sorry this post is a bit of a mess...)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

C:C:C:C:C:

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

That's quite the wagon on Ari. How much is this Ari being Ari?

Also, hi. Reading at the moment. For reference, people call me Young for those that don't know me.

[semi arbitrary percentage]50%[/]

@Metal: Just looked back at our game as scumbuddies, I think you should know Ari can be lynchbait. So I want you to actually answer this:

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

And try to expand on your sloppy point if possible P=

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Ginko's latest post: Hm? I thought what he did made more sense with that in mind ... thou, it confuses me on another front in the sense of: why didn't he say something like "I was told this or that about quickwagons before coming in, so I wanted to make sure/see for myself" or whatever 0.0, I feel like that would've made understanding his initial posts easier (<-@Ari).
(Holy hell, my internet connection is being so sucky right now... it's late and this is gonna make me stay awake even longer T-T)

@Young: Basically, yeah, I don't feel really good about letting him avoid a question twice and I wanted to see what he'd do if I pushed that way. I also felt like he might've been the kind of person who'd just ignore or not want to deal with what he doesn't care for, which is preventing me from fully considering the question-avoiding as scummy and would've prevented me from asking a fourth time too (then more motivation to make this one the one he cares to talk to me about).

@Orcinus: I mean, we did engage a bit in conversation before, and you did mention not knowing and being interested in banter or whatever, so I don't see why not. Also considering Farside's answer to my townread question right now... maybe the angle I decided to take wasn't the right one: At some point my thought process turned into: "The fact that scum might try to comepletey blend in by scumhunting in a genuine way is bothering me, if I let people just do their thing and focus my interactions with them on just how they are scumhunting I might never see their scumminess... maybe I should try asking them stuff not directly related to the path of scumhunting they'd otherwise take"...

@Acryon: I remember you having a townread/feel/whatever about Orci and that you've apparently played together before, also considering your interactions with Ginko at bottom of page 6: Do you make anything out of Orci not responding to my West question, how do you read that?

@Lalendra: I'm afraid I'll get too into a sort of theory-talk in here, but:

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

I mean, Werewolves could also want to just be the majority too (except in that case it's "full majority"), and imo mafia could also want to pit werewolves and town against each other if only to avoid being a target themselves (although this requires first knowing who is in what side, which is also a problem).

@Ginko: I was going to be paranoid about your read some more because of your two points on West calling you out on too many nulls, but whatever T-T... tell me: What's your current read of Lalendra, probably answer this after Lalendra responds to my stuff above^.

@Aristo:

Now to address all those other things I've been ignoring. Let's see, where to start... (Though pg 5 realistically, since I'm fairly certain that's where I left off on shit)

This is going back a bit, but

@Ocrinus

, I wasn't trying to say that I say you were reaction testing at the time. I meant to say that in retrospect I realized what you had done.

So you didn't realise they were reaction tests at first? What was the "someone had to bite, so I went for it", "it was a necessary vote"[/paraphrasing] stuff from before? Eh, from #115, those read to me like you were aware of the reaction testing stuff.

Holy crap I'm sleepy. West said new things... don't feel like I hace anything to add ask about that... nighty.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Yo, Lalendra: After more interactions with people since your last read-list, can you give me an update on your previous scumleans and on how their/our lynches compare to an Ari lynch for you?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I mean, I'm fine with you just talking about the scumleans, but OK.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Quickposting because need Ari to see it (also other people who've played with her, like Ginko heads and specially @Metal):
From ISOing Lal's first game (scumLalendra) and looking at this one I feel like there's a noticeable lack of curiosity or of questioning in how she behaved in both games. Maybe I'm wrong 'cause I just quick-skimmed over to check right now, but the only semblance of curiosity or engaging with others (rather than being asked stuff by others) is either via rethroical questions or questions that directly involve people's read on her or questions to you that I could see as she trying to deflect from your suspicion (@Lal: I mean, if he is mentioning three people that's not exactly a tunnel). I haven't checked the "Keely's BS" game yet because I hadn't realised she was there until just now, so: Is this kind of reactionary play just her style? Because otherwise, it seems scummy to me.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^I was asking because I wanted to avoid that (also, conversation, seeing what others that know her think about what you say blablabla) ;-;
Also, I'm gonna be super nitpicky and annoying here, but what I didn't get about your reactions to Orci's reaction test is: If you didn't know they were reaction tests or something like that, what did you mean when you said the "somebody had to bite so I went for it" lines? The "necessary vote" line also sounds like you were taking credit for starting the convo in a way that sounds to me like you are trying to say you knew what was up.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^I was asking because I wanted to avoid that (also, conversation, seeing what others that know her think about what you say blablabla) ;-;
Also, I'm gonna be super nitpicky and annoying here, but what I didn't get about your reactions to Orci's reaction test is: If you didn't know they were reaction tests or something like that, what did you mean when you said the "somebody had to bite so I went for it" lines? The "necessary vote" line also sounds like you were taking credit for starting the convo in a way that sounds to me like you are trying to say you knew what was up.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(my internet connection sucks, sorry about that double post)
Screw you Ari, I'm pretty sure this is actually you being honest (alingment non-indicative anyways I'd say) but fuck that AtE >.<

Continuing: On the other hand, look at her response to me on 187 about the werewolf thing, that strikes me as a townslip (maybe in this case it's more of a non-werewolf slip, but I was thinking that a mafia would know it'd be easy to check for the wincon on the public role pms or something) because what she's saying was like assuming the werewolf had no other wincon besides the "at least one protown role" one. It didn't pass the second check I tried to apply when I asked more about that (I kinda expected her to be like "Oh, my bad, misunderstood their wincon" or something) but it still caught my eye; am I misreading what she meant or making too much out of that? (because besides that townslippy feeling of it, the "werewolf" thing is part of what makes me feel like some of her points are a stretch). @Other_people should also tell me if I'm being dumb about this.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(Eh, w/e, I'm just dumb, "full majority" scenarios still go through "at least one protown role", I still found that strange)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Forget it. I just found it weird that she emphasized the "at least one protown" point, to where she assigned the werewolves a kind of third-party behavior (of "pitting mafia and town against each other"); I see this as something that could either be done by both scumteams or even moreso by mafia instead, since they have no NK and are therefore subject to the werewolves kill, but yeah, I'm prolly just being dumb and this is getting to theory talk-y.

I found it strange too, but it also somehow strikes me as something a scum would be too nervous too say, so I went null on that.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^I mean, she did suicide-bomb you in her first game and hammer you in the next...
Also, I asked you stuff before, but whatevs, you said you'd comment on me later so I'm assuming that's where I'll get answers(?). Also, what did you mean Ari only got one reaction? West, Orci and I reacted too. Why do you think Lalendra was "defending you" with her reaction to Ari's vote? She even sort of implied that Ari might've been doing a scum-distancing-vote, you two scum buddies 0o0? Also, I'm not sure I get the newbtown read, when I was going through your Lal-read I just really didn't see it concluding with that (I mean, you say things like she's using West reasons to vote, or that she is "oddly defending you"...).

@Mod:

prawneater is voting Metalcyanide, not Vyse P=
@Prawneater: Thoughts on popular lynch candidates Ari and Lalendra, please.

Gonna try to figure out a vote in my next post (so I'm probably going to ramble)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm dumb. Prawn totes commented on Lalendra, but thoughts on the wagon itself would be coo' too.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Quickpost cuz Prawn is here:
Does the idea that Metal was pressure voting Orci do anything to affect your initial reads of him not trying to figure out the game and of him just hoping on wagons for a quicklynch? Do you think using gut-feeling is inherently scummy or is it just the way Metal did that?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

He voted, didn't direct any questions toward Orci, then unvoted one day after.

Hmm... he seemed to demand and explanation from Orci about the random votes thou. Do you read the unvote itself any way in particular? Speaking of Orci: do you have any thoughts on him?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Here's where my head's at (preview-edit: Spoilers for order and to give the illusion of it being less of a wall):

- Ari:

Spoiler:

Sort of going back and forth with him. Also, think you didn't answer Lalendra's request for reads and stuff. I get the case on Ari, thou the "he was lying" stuff feels like too much of a hopeful "AH HA!" moment to be really something that should indicate scumAri rather than just a silly Ari. I just don't really feel all that confident on an Aristo vote, but I'm maybe being too lenient with him and don't really think I have good reasons to oppose that lynch anyways (so I don't).

- Lalendra:

Spoiler:

With fear of falling victim to confirmation bias I went back to the "Keely's BS" game that had townLalendra and the playstyle doesn't seem that different, but I feel like my initial impression of her scumgame found some validation. She did ask more for clarifications there than here, and more about things that don't directly relate to her; the questions at Ari at 211 (this <post> tag is so great) are like that, but that could've been partly to get attention off her and partly to present the idea that Ari is tunnelling, and there's the re-asking of a question to Orci on her updated readslist, thou the original question (163) also feels like it's being asked to aid the scumlean, in how it seems to be used to point out a contradiction more than anything else ("Also why is Metalcyanide an easy lynch if no one is voting for him?"). The Keely's BS game was sorta short and I still wish I had more townLalendra material, because the difference isn't really that harsh, but this makes me read this Lal as scummier anyways.

   I don't think the stated out loud fear of mislynch or stuff about the seer is necessarily alignment indicative and I could see that as she just thinking out loud. I don't like that some of her points seem to be too much of a strech, like the werewolf Orcinus and the meta stuff too (unless I misunderstood and that "he asked for meta" point wasn't an argument for a scumOrci, @Lalendra/AnyoneElseWhoReadThatDifferently), although I can kinda understand her arguments for how that's negative I thought those were somewhat contrived and I don't think it should be that hard to see asking for people's meta as something natural, specially when, out of nowhere, a bunch of people who seem to know each other pop up in the forums (I admit I'm biased here but whatevs); or how with me even after Acryon called her out she went "L-4 isn't super close to a lynch but (...)", which seems like a stretch and like trying too hard not to lose the argument (hmmm... stubborness is not necessary alignment indicative, I suppose), oh an the opportunistic Ari vote I guess...

Anyways, I feel good with a Lalendra vote: VOTE: Lalendra. @Metal: You should still convince me of your newbtown read, yo.

- Vyse:

Spoiler:

Vyse gave me a massive scum gutfeeling with his intro for some reason (maybe adverse reaction and paranoia against what I perceived as maybe buddying for too carelessly given towniepoints and supportive vote) but his later posts (and time I guess) sort of lessened the feeling. Vyse should still come hang out with us more often thou...

- Acryon:

Spoiler:

I think Acryon overexplained himself in regards to some of the stuff I was saying, first about seeing the game in a werewolf/non-werewolf way and then that comment on how he didn't mean nitpicky negatively (I mean, I did say I was nitpicky myself and all), it mildly stroke me as odd that he mentioned he wasn't sure if I was trying to "reconcile my own thoughts or place undeserved suspicion on some players" with that about being nitpicky, but decided to go further into how "nitpicky" isn't negative instead of taking my suggestion of engaging me about his suspicions or just leaving it at that. I feel like the interactions with Orci (save for maybe that post about Orci not voting) have been way too inocuous. These stuff makes me feel scummy about Acryon. Acryon's latests post are pretty much alright thou.

- Orci:

Spoiler:

^Besides the thing I mentioned there about incouous interactions I'm having a hard time reading Orci, if the reason he wasn't answering about West was simply a no-read I think he could've just stated that from the beginning, but eh, I'm probably being too stubborn about that point. I'm kinda just hoping I'll get a better read with some time for the game to advance and for me to try reading more of his past games.

- Metal:

Spoiler:

I was mostly alright with Metal, for some reason the vagueness on his Ari vote didn't bother me that much, but looking back, the "keeping my vote here unless someone can convince me otherwise" is pretty strong for gutfeeling. The way he's been talking about Lalendra is questionable and makes me inclined to think that if Lal is scum then so is Metal (this read gets fuzzier because of their actual real life friendship thou). The selfawareness and carefulness on his explanation of being self-concerned sorta reminded me of this one thing he said on our game as scumbuddies, where he actually talked about how he was doing a safe vote and didn't want others to think he was bandwagoning (and I used that to casually throw some newbtown points at him), then I tried doing looking over a townMetal game to see if that kind of thing is alignment neutral or not and found a post with him commenting on a mislynch, on how he sheeped his vote for the mislynched person and how he was "bringing it up before anyone else did", which gives me a similar selfawareness/carefulness vibe (that was the Magi Mafia Magica game... eh: Here) . I probably should look over other games too (but laziness ^-^'...).

- Eff spoilers because from now on all is short: I've been feeling like Ginko is somewhat lacking, not sure how much of this is due to a combo of me overhyping the Cheet head in my mind for how he killed all of my scumteam last game I played with him and that they seem rather busy. Small stuff that's bothered me I've already said and I'm getting too lazy to self-quote.

- ... At this point I'm just really sleepy and don't remember having anything new/noteworthy to say about anyone else. Lalendra vote stays. (On the making of this post I realised I'm lacking aggresiveness and I need to get more assertive again >.<)... I think I wanted to ask West something but forgot what it was .-. ...

@West

: Can you read me a Ginko?

... Ohai Young. (So I'm... L-2? Sure).

I agree. Not for the same reasons, but I agree. All these "waiting until later" and reactions tests are hindering any kind of coherent conversation here, though

^What were your reasons to agree?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Damn, I blame sleepiness...

@Mod/players

: I forgot to mention I'm in V/LA from now on and for about a week. I should be able to get at least one non proddodge post a day, at least until Wednesday (from there on I still don't know how limited my internet access will be, I'll let you know as soon as possible).

Comments: @Vyse: Sorry about the too specific meta talk, I did link games in my last post thou. Speaking of meta, I had the opposite reaction to Metal's "Anti-scum" play, because it reminded me of something he's said as scum that has some of that too selfaware/too careful vibe (linkity, last para about safe votes). Since I also found something of the same vibe from a townMetal game (think I linked the game on my previous post) I'm of the opinion that it's not an alignment indicative thing.

Not sure I get the "direction" concept and how lack of it is apparently good (don't townleaders and proactive players in general have direction?). Explain it to me using examples with Metal's post if you can, because bleh at pure theory talk. If anything, that sounds to me like vouching for reactionary rather than proactive play (although I think Metal¿s play is reactionary in general anyways...)

--I'm not really sure about my Ari read at this point. I still dislike his early play, but his more recent content is so far afield of what I'd expected from him that I'm second-guessing my ability to read him.

What were you expecting and why were you expecting it?

*echo of Farside and Ginko's reactions to your vote* Dismissing the meta talk earlier and basing your vote mostly on the notion of Ginko that you got because of it (I think that's what happened(?)) is also kinda weird. (lol we aren't at wall wars yet P= )

@Ginko:

Sorry about order, but don't have time: The second kind of clarifications.
The other thing ties back to what I said to start conversation with Ari about my impression of Lal's behavior this and her first game; I think she showed more genuine curiosity for things going on in the game in her town game, the few question she's asked this time around I can see as having scum motivations (furthering scum reads, deflecting).
Something something how I play devil's advocate when I ramble something something how I like to self doubt sometimes; can't say I'm at the "she is scum and must die in a fire!!" mode but I like the vote enough to put it there in a serious intent-to-lynch manner; culmination of small things I suppose, it's how I'm perceiving her general behavior, how that may fit with the bits of meta I can get of her and how some of her points to argue about someone's scumminess seem like grasping or unnatural and forced.

You want me to flatter you more here ;-;... It wasn't about being the best player in the universe but more related with the feeling I stated: you didn't botch those 2 days for lack of presence or impact .-. (kinda completely the opposite iIrc).

Runing out of time: @Metal: Can you directly answer the question I asked at top of page 12? As for your read: Damn, was hoping for something more substantial, can you try to put your townLal feeling into words, like point me out the differences between those two games and how they present themselves in this game?

I agree that Ari can be a really good town player, but I think he isn't that usually a leader or early one anyways and that he still has a problem with turning into lynchbait. If I get time I'll try going over your shared games with Ari because I think I've only played one game with you both at the same time. Also, something about how Ari was forced into a claim D2 on the game we three played together (I remember a sloppy hammer but can't recall how the rest of the arguments about Ari went).

Just skimmed over the rest of the posts. I see what Ginko is saying about West's question to Ari's and agree with the feeling he got out of it.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Vyse: What do you think of Ginko's read on West (of him baiting Ari and such)? (also remember to answer my question about your expectations of Ari when you get the time =P, also also: d2forums only allows the ISO-like search for registered users P= ).

@Farside: I mean, Ari sort of says he didn't realize it was reaction-testing on the same quote you used, and he also said more about that near the top of page 11. Don't have a problem with you still being mad about that, but saying this because your wording seems like if Ari was still trying to act as if he knew what Orc was doing from the beginning.
Also:

I absolutely hate this post. She is not voting for her strongest scum read.
The reason being was in her first post and nothing has changed.

I think that was a mistake of Lal's, she said in the next post to ignore everything previous to the West quote of that post (I'm assuming she copy-pasted her own previous readslist while writing the post and forgot to erase it all or something like that).

ATTN YOUNG:

Spoiler:

Yo, Prawn, thou your latest post is an answer to the Orc question, can you address the rest of this please?

He voted, didn't direct any questions toward Orci, then unvoted one day after.

Hmm... he seemed to demand and explanation from Orci about the random votes thou. Do you read the unvote itself any way in particular? Speaking of Orci: do you have any thoughts on him?

I kinda like Glinko's stuff on Acryon. Btw @Acryon, can you give me your thoughts on Metal?

@West:

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks but I don't like the Lalendra one enough to put it at L-1

Is there something in particular you don't like about the Lal wagon (alternatively: Something in particular you like about Lal that gives her townpoints)?

@Lalendra: You initially mentioned you thought Ari was being typical Ari and that general silliness was mostly just his meta. Later you said West's case helped in swaying you. Besides the Metal-vote: Do you just generally agree with West? Can you walk me through the evolution of your read (like, where did "typical silly Ari" go, for example)?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(someone mentioned not knowing how to spoiler here, that's with the "spoiler=" button)
Stuff about the Ginko/West debacle (*West and Ginko close discussion* ... sorry to bring this up again :C, is not much content, I promise) (@Ginko/@West):

Spoiler:

You never prod him directly about whether said point was a joke or not, instead you run with that assumption and yeah it could be impatience, but it just doesn't read that way to me.

Not really true. I liked it when West said this: "His response to me "egging him on" would have been the perfect place for him to say "i was joking."" and if you look at the exchange, he asked once again if he was joking or not in his next response to Ari (66), Ari continued to be silly in his response to that. I feel like you are overdoing either your defense on Ari or your attack on West.

That said, I think West assigned way too much importance to when Ari corrected a badly formatted quote (when he was responding to Ginko's RVS) and he is maybe reading too much into it. I took it as just a correction of bad coding, nothing more (38).

West last response to Lal also feels exaggerated because of the flipflopping point, Lalendra's response to it explains why.

Not sure if I should feel dumb about Acryon's comments on my play or even dumber for not getting what he's saying 0.0. I've only mentioned slips once, in my talk with Ari, and that was about a townslip. Not sure if his definition of "scumslip" is way wider than mine, or if this ties back to his comments on how I was being nitpicky and fixating on details. I don't feel like my case on Lal focuses at all on slips and I think it even sorta overlaps with some of his questioning to Lal (when I say Lal's logic is stretchy and how the exchange about my L-4 is part of that, for example).

Btw @Acryon: Why are Vyse and West also that low? I would've expected Metal to be like in third position based on your earlier comments of him when I asked about your other scumsuspects and that your ISO gives me no indication of you feeling better about him since then, nor of him being townier than West, who you said seemed town that time.

@Metal: Me and West totes reacted. My reaction to Ari was like "Ari wth, you scum?" West was like "lolscum", but whatever.

Null:
Lalendra

Oh... Imma just count this as a point in Lal's wagon favor I suppose...
Quickly went over Lal's games and I think I can see what you mean with "all over the place", I think the impression most likely comes from the existence of complete readslists. Otherwise, being "all over the place" could come from forced interaction with people who are questioning her here. Is this right? If so: Do you think the readslist is that telling of alignment? Considering she started being active only after a fair amount of activity had already taken place, I feel like a scumLal could've felt like this kind of post (or a catch-up one) were necessary.

@Prawn: I'm not sure I get that four people list. Are those like lynches you like besides the Metal one? Since Ari is kinda getting there, why not throw a vote to that wagon?
P-EDIT: Well then... (also: Ari is all disengaged with this game :C )

(This post has the finished ideas of a larger post that I'm breaking down because real life is interrupting me; gonna come finish the rest of the post later).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(^@Metal: When I asked "you two scumbuddies?" I actually meant Lal and you, but carry on with that discussion).

Finishing post and some talk about new stuff too:
@Young: I'm in this annoying place regarding West where I like stuff that he says, even when I don't completely agree with it, and where I make myself really suspicious about the little things I don't like (when I feel he is exaggerating his points) and really don't want to let go off those feelings. If you want something more tangible, "nullscum" I suppose, while not feeling like I can make a reasonable push yet.

Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

Poop =I... Hm... gonna try putting the mindset behind my original question into words: "I feel like Lal came in with a read similar to mine on Ari; I look at West's points and the idea of Ari being Ari still makes me doubt some of that. Lal doesn't seem to have those same doubts thou, so I wanna know more about her reads on Ari, which parts of what West said changed Lal's mind and what of her previous read of Ari still lingers, if anything", which is why I actually wanted to hear which parts were the "yeah, what West said" parts. Not mentioning how and where West swayed you makes it harder for me to understand the evolution of that read, additionally the way you put it makes me feel like you are retconning your first Ari-read here, specially because you mention some stuff that does align with West's reasoning, but your wording makes it seem to me as if it was all yours (like the first points there about how Ari's "we could both be scum" is weird)... but whatever. (Also, I assume that when Ari mentioned that a lynch could prove he is townie, he meant a lynch on him =P).

@Ginko: Acryon wagon is sexy and all, but I feel like you are being too dismissive of the Lalendra wagon. Some of that contrived reasoning and the reactionary not curious attitude (that aligns with meta) feels like more than just weirdness to me. Also: "Willingness to change reads is townie" Applies to Acryon: Yes, no? why?

I feel like farside is giving some of those towniepoints to Acryon for the wrong reasons. Some of those come down to making an effort and having stuff she agrees with =/ (I also feel it lacks paranoia about scum maybe genuinely scumhunting, but I guess that's just my personal view on the matter). Vyse's post about the farside read aren't bad except for still bringing up part iv) of that one Ginko post, which I'd say is outdated. I don't want to default to "lol newb mistakes" on everything Lal thou, I remember one time being too lenient with first time playing scum because of that kind of mentality and another trying to protect a scummate with that.


@Acryon: I sorta thought you'd see my confusion and help me understand your "scumslips" read on me that I don't get at all :C, so Imma just ask now: What do you mean with that, yo? And...

Some of the comments from Vyse in posts like 288 felt like genuine scum-hunting to me, even if they involved me

you just gave reasoning for a townVyse 0.0(?), but wasn't he on the scum side of your readslist? Also, yep, talk about West's placement too. Your initial townlean on him didn't seem strong (124) but that he is below people like Prawn or YYR (whose placement on the readslist seems to be just because nothings seems scummy to you of what little they've posted) still caught my attention.

On another note, the apparent hypocrisy of Lal's suspicion on me isn't what bothered me there: (still @Acryon) Don't you think the context of those votes were different enough that the "contradiction" isn't as brash as you are making it out to be?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Ginko: That question about changing reads was because of Johnny saying something like that about Metal and me remembering that when I was asking Acryon about his readslist.
(Heh... I wonder if Orci's "I'm gonna seer you" comment had anything to do with this kill)
Sleepy comments before (heading to bed and then) rereading and fully catching up and stuff:

That Acryon somehow understood my question backwards reads disingenuous to me when considering he answered Ginko and Young's "Why is Lyserg that low" questions in a way that fits with the "low = scummier" thing .... and he never actually told me why Vyse was sorta scummy to him. The idea that he just forgot his Vyse read because it was made up is nice at first, but I'd think scum wouldn't be so careless about that sort of thing.

@farside:

Not wolf with Lal would be West, Metal, Orc or Ginko

Can you explain more of this? Not super seeing most of that (except Orc, but I mean). I want to say I see West, but he only started really addressing Lal once her wagon had already outgrown Ari's, so I don't want to rule out bussing there. The way Metal addressed Lal seemed off to me after some point, and they sorta defending each other doesn't reassure me there at all (... oh wait, you then said Metal could be Lal's buddy...), and Ginko's dismissiveness of the Lal wagon annoyed me.

I wish I had been present closer to deadline to fight more with Ginko and Vyse about the validity of a Lal vote. Vyse dismissiveness of the Lal wagon also annoyed me, the "blind lynch" line seemed overboard to me while I didn't feel like he was really saying much against Lal votes besides Acryon's. Defaulting to "lol newb" just reminds me way too much of the game where me and Metal were scumbuddies and makes me feel all off about Vyse again.

@West: How do you feel about the idea of Vyse and Lal being scumbuddies? I thought a lot of his defense of Lal was linked to his attack on Acryon. Also, maybe I'm losing the context because of ISOing, but where does he "fight pretty hard" against farside? start of 396 isn't that hard of a fight, and he has more posts before that where he is disagreeing with farside's townread on Acryon.

@Metal: Give me your updated thoughts on Acryon please.

@Acryon: Give me your updated thoughts on West please.

@

Johnny

Ginko: Why is Ari a townread? I mean, I get a not-wolf read...

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm being lazy and haven't reread everything yet P=
@Acryon: Eh, I still feel like you are exaggrating with the whole "slips" thing. I also agreed with the "scum would be more careful" at the end there 0.0 (also, something that reads dishonest is not the same as something that reads like a slip). Somone talk at me more about this, give me a second opinion of his thoughts on me or something, @farside/Young/Ginko/whoever, because this is making me all OMGUS-y...

   Also, can you give me a summary of your case on Ari? I remember your vote post having the fishing for reactions tint to it and it being not that grand for the confidence you are showing for it, can't remember you being explicit about more of your reasons to suspect him.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time.

Hmm... what were your reasons to suspect West and Lal were scumbuddies before (when you talked about West's placement on your readslist)?

@Metal: You said you didn't like the two other wagons going on at the time, I get you didn't like the Lal one, but what about the Acryon one Ginko and Vyse tried to start?
*bleeps & bloops* VOTE: Metal

@Ginko: Is the scumread/lean/whatever on Vyse because of the associative tell with Lal or is the more to it?

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Hmm...
I don't know if buddying is that common and I also can't recall scum-scum defenses being specially common either, or not to where I'd say it's a particular part of D2forums' meta anyways, but I still don't wanna just go "that's too obvious for scum". I've been dumb scum and defended a partner before (to the "too obvious" point), and I've seen casual slight defenses being thrown around in games. I think looking for alt wagons or mostly ignoring each other is prolly a more general and common approach and I'm generally paranoid of bussing because I've seen it work so well before, but I've been having a hard time believing Lal's partner was super eager to bus her (a combo of the setup, whoever his partner is either seeing her as sorta newbish or a complete stranger and the lack of daytalk maybe being in the way of giving each other warnings and coordinate that kind of thing, but maybe this is just my personal too considerate view on the matter).

I've seen scumMetal buddying before (to townCheet on the game where he and I were scumbuddies), but I'm not sure if he'd do that with Lal and I initially felt like he was genuinely trying to protect Lal (albeit in a questionable way). In the wolfhunting front, I'm more inclined to look into people who didn't vote Lal, and I also can't recall any of the Lal votes feeling bus-y... I should look at that wagon again thou... I don't care much for stuff against Lal that happened after your switch from Ari to Lal. Do you think wolf-Prawn wouldn't have hammered Lal in spite of her fate being pretty much sealed at that point?

Also, you never fully got back at me about the "not wolf" people thing P=

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Metal: Like, I can understand liking the Ari wagon more and that Acryon wagon seemed like out of nowhere to you, but I'm more concerned about the fact that you didn't address or voice your thoughts on the points against Acryon at all (or maybe at least on farside's townread on Acryon). The Ari wagon was losing traction in favor of the Lal one, but you didn't really push the Ari one more, nor took note of the alternative wagon on one of your suspects (as opposed to the leading one on one of your townreads). It makes me agree with West's comments on how you were doing nothing and feel like you were being too sideline-y by the end of last phase and not genuinely pursuing your Acryon suspicion.

@Ginko: I'm gonna be mad if you are a wolf actually being that cheeky about it >:C ... also, don't forget the question about Vyse. Talk to me more about the Metal townread, I'm honestly sorta conflicted on him because there's stuff he's done that I do like.

   Besides what's above: I feel like he was just throwing around the "newb" part of his newbtown read, mostly because I can see why some of Lal's post would point to newb, but not why Metal was so reading them as town. I don't like his Lal read on 263: When I read stuff like that he can't follow her thought process, that she's "oddly defending him" or that she's pointing to someone else reasoning to justify a vote, I just felt like the "newbtown" read came out of nowhere as a conclusion to that read.

   I like that he tried to pinpoint the origin of his townread at the end of 336, but that also came after a fair amount of pressure calling for a justification, and he didn't follow up on that when I commented on it :C


@farside: You hadn't expanded on Ginko being there, but whatevs.
You mean the "define town hammer" comment? Eh, when I read that I thought that was just Lal thinking that was a specific mafia term rather just a "that looks townie".

@Acryon:

I can't say for sure what I was thinking then, because it's just what I wrote down in my spreadsheet at the time for who Lal's likely buddy(s) were, and it wasn't based on anything particularly in-depth; I just needed a spot for everyone. I imagine it had something to do with her leaving West off of her initial readslist, as well as her followup in 190, combined with the aforementioned West comments.

I was wondering why you hadn't brought up (umpormpted) your original thoughts on the West/Lal interaction again, considering the flip and all, and with this I suppose I get that you didn't because of the nebulous/shallow nature of your original read of their interactions... but on the other hand, I mean I appreciate the effort of having a spreadsheet and all, but comments like this make me think you were more interested in fabricating or having a readslist than in the reasoning and points behind the readslist itself .-.

I thought 53 was very off, so I voted to apply some pressure and see what we got out of Ari. Ari was voting Metal, but then, after I voted and West expressed some suspicion, Ari quickly jumped aboard the Lal wagon to steer away from himself. The rest of his posts that weren't answering direct questions were pretty active lurky. Post 53 pinged me as scum, and nothing after that convinced me that it wasn't from scum.

Hmm... I don't really have such strong feelings for 53 and his questions about me and Ginko. I could see that as a genuine attempts to start convo and his answer in 199 sort of says that too. I see what you are saying with the jump on Lal, but: The Metal vote does look like reaction test anyways (scum or town intentions, idk, but reaction test nontheless), don't you think it's natural that he would then act on the conclusions he got off it? Or do you think the scumminess of the fact outweights the possible town intentions of it or something like that? As for the active lurking: ... Oh, there's actually a lot of quickposting to apologize for lack of time. Did you mean that?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^K

@Metal: But you don't have to be mad about it :C, sorry for continuing to harp on this: I think you are referring to your posts starting from 420, right? My impression of sideline-y-ness...sidelineness(?), starts from before those, for example, when Ginko asks you about your change of reads on Acryon would've been a good time to chime in on the Acryon wagon. Also, I didn't realise the mod posts had that cool timer thing until after the dayphase had ended xP... and thou it made me feel really dumb at first, I do echo Ginko's questioning of Ari questioning you on that.

   Btw, are your other scumreads just the associative tell (because they didn't vote Lal) or is there more to it to them?

@Acryon:

There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.

I doubt the honesty of the first sentence when it is trying to cover for my comment on a specific situation by turning to the general case; when on D1 you go "I think these two might be scumpartners" and then we get one of those two to flip scum, I expect a follow up of some sort or at least I think it's fairly clear that the situation is not analogous to your hyperbole of "everyone consatnly updating the thread with full reads list". I understand the second point, but need time to think about that and in how conceding it is essentially giving you a pass to tunnel.

Considering Metal didn't even get a chance to post between the time Ari voted him and switched to Lal, I would say that it was not a reaction test, since there was literally no reaction from it before Ari switched off of it.

Why are you acting as if reaction test votes could only be aimed at the person who got voted? How was Lal's switch to Ari not a reaction? In any case, there's still a fair point there:

@Ari:

Why did you not wait for Metal to react too if you actually voted him partly because you suspected him (slight ping or w/e)?

Yes.

... is this really an integral part of what gives you confidence on the Ari case?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^Will do. Btw, I can see were Ginko's coming from with the derpy point. Things that I could call derpy from Ari d1 are stuff like apparently taking RVS jokes too seriously. You saying that one big post was one of Ari's best but then calling it derpy also feels a bit weird. Can you expand on how it is derpy to you and if this means anything alignment-wise to you?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@farside: No yeah, I meant that the joke->serious was derpy. I totally understand where you are coming from, because in one game I tunnelled on a townAri (an hydra of with him, actually) and him doing that sort of thing was one of the things that really annoyed me. Can't say it's not something he'd do as scum, but that personally makes me feel less scummy about that.

First off I'm having trouble locking my read on Acryon because I feel there's mix of OMGUS and playstyle/personality clash in there.

@Acryon: I'm having trouble understanding the confidence you have in your Ari case, 53 really doesn't read that scummy to me given the earliness of it and that I think "starting convo" is a decent reason to ask about people who were being active and doing more than RVS like me and Ginko at the time, in spite of him feeling good about us. Second, your "that ain't a reaction test, yo" point felt dishonest at first, even if there was a good point in it and makes me feel like you were exaggerating it. Third, I'm glad you aren't making too much out of the "active lurking" because that point was gross to me, but even so, it's still kind of gross to me. @MSpeople: Is it common to question people when they state irl preoccupations and turn that into arguements for scumminess around here (alternatively: Is that a thing scum actually do that much around here?).

Gonna butt in in your debate here: (@West and Acryon)

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

That's nice and I agree, but why aren't you actually answering the question? Saying "West's conception of insencere is wrong" is not telling us why you think Metal is reading genuine to you. While we are talking about Metal, doesn't it bother you that he didn't seem to pursue his Acryon suspicion when an opportunity was presented (to avoid the lynch on his townread Lal too). P-EDIT2: *See at the bottom*

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Why are you questioning something I already did that he already addressed?

How did I ignore it? It's a comment from you. You can feel how you want. What am I supposed to even say to that? "My response was honest, not dishonest like you felt"?

farside made arguments as to why West would maybe not be Lal's teammate based on their interactions. Stop talking to us about how you just disagree with her and aren't dishonest and try to address them. P-EDIT: Oh hey you responded. Whatever.

@farisde

: Ari said Lal left a trail to scummates on her first game as scum, now that I'm quickISOing her on that game again I can see what he means (example [Pandoran was scum too]), I could see scumLal townreading and using scumWests' reasoning, I can also see West seeing the lack of a Westread on Lal's first readslist and questioning it because of a "better me than someone else" sort of thing.

I disagree. People make bad, (...)

I sill agree with this, you are still avoiding the actual question about why Metal reads genuine to you, by just questioning the question. P-EDIT: So gut I gather.

I didn't intentionally dodge there, but what do I say when someone disagrees with my gut. And if you don't think this is clearly saying gut, then you are just an idiot and I can't help you:

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

Considering there is a lot of gut involved in the reads particularly on you/Vyse/Lyserg, I think it would be pretty suspicious if I

could

strongly defend them. There is a reason I was/am pushing for an Ari lynch, which I can and have defended strongly, versus one of any of the three of you which I know I can't.

No. You were asked about this, and you did try to give reasoning not entirely based on gutfeels about the West/Lal d1 interactions (515; weak nebulous reasoning, sure, but still), and you could've told me right there that gut had a lot to do with it, or even before in that same response to farside, instead of going "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner".

   What do you think about Vyse, Ginko and Prawn as possible partners for Lal?

@West: Prawn's vote on Acryon bothers me and put a dent on the idea that Acryon is scum. Talk about it.

P-EDIT2:

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

Do you really think the first sentence is a decent answer to that? Just because "they are correct" doesn't mean they are for the right reasons, this attitude is annoying in that I think that if I suddenly gave a townread with horrible reasoning you'd just take it.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Prawn: Can you update me on your thoughts on both Acryon and Metal (and relative to each other) and why you'd choose Acryon in your last vote as opposed to Metal?

It's late so I'm gonna sleep on where my vote will be next and decide tomorrow.
@Metal: OK, cool ^^. Here's what I'm looking for: Thoughts on the points Ginko/Vyse were doing about Acryon during D1? (or, your thoughts on that at that moment).

YYR could also be since he hasn't been around could be going for a lurking strategy

No.

First off: SO... about this prods and V/LAs

Spoiler:

I love you guys, don't leave me

("spoiler=" tag Ari xD)
Second. As promised: ATTN FARSIDE:
... *prod prod*

I'm not gonna address stuff in depth now because "quickpost" and skimming over (it's turning out long, but w/e ^^' ):
@Acryon: I mean, I know that fits the definition of "active lurking" but that's kind of a nonanswer (and cut the sass here, it makes your dis/honesty harder to parse =P), the wiki only tells me it is a thing that at some point existed or was noted. I really almost voted you after you said "Yes", not even because the rest of the discussion also had stuff I didn't like: that is how gross that argument is for me and my disbelief led me to ask one more time, finally I at least could understand if this is a thing of the current meta (wiki doesn't necessarily reflect that; if you can point me to another game with townAcryon doing that, that'd be cool too). About the wording I used on the notes thing: fair enough, the main point still stands in that it feels like a retcon of your read in comparison to how you responded in 515.

Not sure what farside's going with asking about West's experience in mafia. West himself explained early D1 about D2 people having played before. People have been talking about Lal as newbie a lot too I feel, doesn't feel like either should be a secret to anybody at this point.

@West: Eh, the answer he gave you is not that different from what he told me about not wanting to muck up the thread (which sorta implies the same), thou I get why you are mad about the answer anyways. You called her out on using your reasoning, that was... iIrc that was after her wagon had already outgrown Ari's. It's a fair point, but that fact makes me wonder if that wasn't a good time to start bussing. I'm not pushing that you are the wolf here, but I don't think you are confNonWolf or whatever.

Oh. Ari did a comeback.

That, plus the fact that you seem to think the Warewolves, which happen to be the party that Controls

The Night Kill

, are of a lesser issue than scum themselves seems weird to me. First off, scum is scum.

Why would one group of them present any difference of threat level than another?

Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?

I mean. You are gonna have to tell me about the thought process behind your questions (not only the bolded) after Acryon addresses them, because what?

@Ari, I need you to take a step back and consider the possibility of you feeling awful about Acryon coming at least partly from an OMGUS or playstyle clash place. A lot of Aryon feels disingenuous and he has an habit of giving non-answers to direct questions, but something about West feels off too, can you give me your thoughts on him?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm dumb, farside already told me about Ginko. Need to sleep. @farside: I liked that he was bothering to do the summary of the Lal cases too, I think the way he sorta dismissed it all on post... 347 just kinda undermined the effort in my view and kinda shaped my impression of Ginko/Lal interactions, but now that I'm quickISOing him again I realise he's still discussing more Lalendra related stuff later anyways. Sleepy time now.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Quickposting while waking up.
Acryon is sill pushing the active lurking point >.<

@farside: I think I understood the thought process behind Acryon being awful by not addressing the initial points you were raising about Lal/West interactions, but I'm not sure I get how the discussion about their experience led you to vote him (I mean, I thought that when West explained we D2ers came from the same forum and have played mafia together and stuff it was clear we at least had sooome experience, even West first post kinda tells there's history in there).

@Acryon: I mean, that's still kind of a nonanswer, "they make sense" is like sort of a minimum requirement (like when you were asked if one of Lal's point was "believable"... of course it'd be believable at least from her PoV). Metal's vote reads a bit OMGUS-y, but I guess the reason is that West was being overly defensive and didn't vote Lal? Like, I'd say that I don't know if that's really worth abandoning his previous Ari case, but that one also seemed very gut based (plus meta, I think).

@Metal: Metalpls, answer my question about your standing on previous points against Acryon during D1 (or well, at this point you can also tell me about the points about Acryon that are in play right now, considering the wagon and all), I feel like you are avoiding giving any meaningful opinion on him >.<.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).
In any case, I do dislike his latest questioning to you, the last quote you mentioned on 599 felt like misrep.

(quickposting over: gone for lunch and other stuff, also now musing the idea of Acryon+Metal scumteam; waiting to understand more of farside and Prawn's vote on Acryon)
P-EDIT:

Ginko you jerk. Good luck with your IRL stuff :C
@farside: Eh, fair enough, not sure if I missed it because skimming over, but can you tell me what you were testing when asking about West's experience and why that led to you voting Acryon?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Oh hey new person.
Clearly Prawn is town because he knows who best girl is.

@Prawn: Metal was also voting Ari when you made your vote, moreover, he already had three votes on him while Acryon had none (think one of the problems you had D1 was that your Metal vote didn't develop into a sizeable wagon, why not take the chance then?), why did you choose Acryon over Metal? Also, I don't like that your confTown-Ari idea kinda completely dismisses all: bussing, the idea that at least one of those votes on Ari wasn't meant to last, that the remaining non-Ari voters aren't scum with him (like, why couldn't the YYR slot or I be Ari's scumbuddies, considering we both stayed away from the Ari wagon?).

@Metal: Eh, that's kind of a repeat of what you've already said before. I was more interested in your feelings of the points Ginko/Vyse had brought up D1 or the discussion surrounding Acryon right now, but whatever, at this point the idea that it is a problem that you weren't and aren't noting any of that is engraved enough in my mind.
   Like, at least from today's conversation: Do you not have a problem with the way he sometimes avoids questions? Do you not have a problem with the way he's addressed West/Lal, and kinda retconned the reasons he had for wolfWest into gutfeels? (I'm saying I feel like he retconned what he told me on 515 after his discussion with West), don't you think taking Ari's post to say he lacks time and making them part of arguments for scumminess is reaching? (well... you yourself did also say Young could've been strat-lurking <.<, but still)

Gonna try more clearly stating my problem with your late D1: Here's what I saw: Metal had a town read on Lal, main wagon at the moment, and his vote on Ari, a wagon that was losing traction. Vyse and Ginko were making points against Acryon, one of Metal's scumreads, which was being born as a possible alternative to Lal wagon. Why would townMetal not care to even note it in order to both pursue a scumread and defend a townread? (thinking about this, maybe wolfMetal should've also acted on that, but whatever). @Acryon: You can tell me your thoughts on this too P=

@farside: I'm fine with looking at people who didn't vote Lal and going "I think of these is the wolf", at the same time, I agree that actually making a push just based on the associative tell is would be weak (almst but not quite what Metal's doing with West). But:

Lets not forget Metal was not on the wagon either so that is pretty weak reason to find one of X scum on that basis.

Should he not consider the associative tell just because it also points to him?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Quiet day is quiet.
I thought I'd be here today but turns out I have irl stuff to distract me, in the meantime, homework for people C:

@Prawn: Answer follow up question about preference of Acryon over Metal pls (because I feel everything you told me about Acryon kinda applies to Metal too). Curious, is there offsite meta of you? I might want to take a look later (and all your onsite games are ongoing).


@Ari:

Can't remember what pinged originally. Not liking his interactions though. I feel they're more than the "just metal being metal" we've seen in past games.

Be more specific please.

I didn't post the vote solely to test Metal. Maybe I should have waited for him to respond before I came in with my follow-up, but I'm rather happy with the results and have no regrets about it. I wantedgeneral reactions to the vote more than his reaction to being voted.

I mean, hindsight's 20/20 I guess =/. Curious, what did you make of people's reactions other than Lal's?

I hadn't realized I hadn't really said anything to/about West in that post. I'm gonna have to do a readback and see where I stand on him, because I've already had drastic shifts in that a few times.
From what I can see he's resumed his usual town-leadery, asks a lot of questions role, which I usually like. Without looking back though, that's all I've got on him.

What happened to your suspicion that West could be on a scumteam with Lal?

Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?

@Acryon: Can you answer the last part of this (about sticking with your vote or not). I want to yell at Ari about it but I think you didn't answer to that in your response to him.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Hi, I'm rambling on a larger post, but while I try to make sense of my own words:
@West:
I can see the "defending" one more in a "justifying" sense, since reads don't always have strong reasoning behind them one would want to defend, but they should always be at least justified even if by "lolgut", but:

This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy

How the hell is making mistakes scummy? (laziness isn't really either, but eh, that's kinda dependant on the player).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^Don't really feel like that's what I'm doing here, but yeah, kinda (I need to be in a really assertive mood to not doubt myself out loud even a little). I don't like that line out of West because it feels like overdoing his attack on Acryon (mistakes are things everyone makes).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Acryon: Oh. K then. That's a lot of confidence P=. Can't really yell that much at Ari if the response isn't what I expected ^ ^'

I thought you'd call it dumb because there's little point to a one-man wagon if you can use your vote to lynch your secondary suspect (even more so now that

your confidence on scumWest had risen considerably after your exchange with him) or because it can be used to avoid a NL or something like that. Then I'd yell at Ari because I wasn't sure about the point of that line of questioning and it worried me when also considering his super lame "Metal, didn't you notice the timer!?" question and because the "If I'm not scum" part of it makes no sense (is there any other answer than "How the hell would I know? And if I did of course I wouldn't vote you" to that 0.0?).

   Tbh when I first asked you about your case on Ari and with how confident you seemed, I thought I'd get some new content (and I did) but I also thought it'd be composited and strengthened with you agreeing with and pointing to other people's D1 points (there's nothing inherently wrong with that not being the case, but I would've understood your confidence more if it was). Looking back on this, I prolly shouldn't have questioned you on that so early and I should've given you more breathing room instead to see how you'd organically push for the Ari lynch. But whatever.

@farside: About Metal focusing on werewolves: Idk, he went for Ari first and only changed to West after that exchange. If you mean because the trio of suspects for wolf, then: We caught one wolf, I'd think it's natural to have specific wolf suspects based off the possibilities of associative tells. Also, I noted D1 that Acryon/Orc interactions seemed too inocuous, so I can see where Metal would get that "team" read from and him noticing the tones with which players interact is partly why I could sorta see Ginko's comment on Metal having "deeper" thoughts on players than what I/him remember/s from scumMetal when he said that

I'm honestly conflicted on Metal lynch, partly because gut, partly because of a few stuff I liked I already mentioned. I also like that he at least took the time to comment on the votes of the wagon he himself was on. Stuff I don't like either I've already commented or other people have said them and I didn't raise counterpoints; Metal lynch is fine, but not my favorite.

I can't make myself feel better about the stuff I haven't liked about Acryon by chalking them up to playstyle differences (and my gut likes the vote better there than in Metal), the feeling of insincerity I got off him doesn't go away. VOTE: Acryon. Also, stuff that I feel the strongest about regarding Metal have to do with his interactions with Acryon (or lack thereof), so there's that.

I'm wary of just letting West correct himself like that, but I guess that way it is consistent with his previous line of questioning to Acryon of "Or by being scum". I'm going back and forth with West and the possibiliy of getting the wolf is tempting. To the points farside brought up before, there are counters based off Lal's meta and the idea that West is not dumb enough to not know when to bus; I feel slightly off about West pushing farside's points to Acryon when some of them had counters with Lal's meta of which West should be aware of (Lal relying on the points made by a scummate and defending them), only "slightly" off because Acryon had no reason to know about Lal's meta and he really was just ignoring farside's points. Thou the "solid townread" Lal gave to West seems overboard, I remember her being a bit more wishywashy when giving townpoints to scummates on the Madoka game. @Ari: But you can help me out here, since I actually didn't play that game.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Acryon: It was more commentary on Ari than on you, I found that whole paragraph of questioning kinda off, but I mean, if you yourself are fine with it makes me feel like it was prolly nothing =/.

(1)Tbf you seem to question a lot of things on people.
I get lack of trust and such but sometimes it comes across as being a bit fencing with everyone.

It probably is a playstyle difference but in my world it reads a bit scuzzy because it gives the allusion of scum hunting but finding everyone scummy to put a case against no mater what.

(2)That said. Can you tell me what post from metal you found that he addressed things against him?
(3)Also when I say metal is scum hunting with in one group I do know he is voting ari (not a wolf read) but he isn't explain his scum reads other then associated reads which is pretty weak.

(1)Oh, I thought with "devil's advocate" you meant more like playing devil's advocate to advocate for other people (like defenses). That's fair P=, to make it short: I think of myself as a generally sparse player, this setup is probably making me more paranoid than usual.

(2)Not sure I get the question. The thing I said about the wagon he himself was on? I meant when he looked at the votes on Ari while he was voting Ari himself during D1 (I like the fact, in principle, of questioning the wagon one's standing on; that he questioned and scumleaned on West out of that is interesting at least).

(3)Hmm... I can see that.

(

@Mod

V/LA for this whole week. Like last time I said this, I don't know in advance the limitations on internet access I'll have. I'll either keep playing when possible or inform you if replacement is better P= (sorry for any inconvenience) @Players: Either way, I won't be around much or at all during the next 24 hours)

P-EDIT: The point was that farside mentioned possible reasons to say you were not scum given the interactions with Lal, but the Lal-meta makes me disagree with part of the argument, and you know her meta and have seen she's done that with scummates, but were pushing for farside's point anyways. In the sense that people did need to address those points, there's nothing wrong with it, in the sense that you might've known of reasons to disagree with farside's argument yourself but used them anyways, it feels dishonest.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Phonepost ahoy: (lowbattery rush)
@farside: 263 waa the one I was talking about.
@Metal: I totes get if you hold it against Jordan who's actually here, or get angry about Young seeming apathetic towards the game or whatever, but why are you not even considering that if both Young and Gliff had to sub out then thers clearly more to it than some dumb lurkscum move?

@vyse: Request noted, but right now its not the best time for me to try to order my thoughts on people, sorry. The hardest stances ive got right now is wanting to lynch acryon, metal being a good alt, and farside being the player im most comfortable trusting right now.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Yay, now I'm on my laptop, but I gotta wake up early tomorrow so rushing this on too P=. Welcome back Cheet C:

@Metal's last response to me: It was one of your last posts about the slot that made me yell at you about the lurkscum thing again (where you say that it's unlikely the 3 would do the same but that it's "weird" or whatever anyways, in that that feels like still using the "triple lurkscum" idea to cast suspicion on the slot without addressing the fact that if two of those got replaced then there's great reason to think that was no scumlurking from Gliff and Young).

@Ari: You didn't answer my last questions to you (654).

@Vyse: I want to interact with you more partly because I'm sorry I haven't been able to answer for a complete readslist yet (if I'm honest, it's hard for me to do that sort of things, specially in a succinct manner like you are asking). Who are your wolf suspects and why? QuickISOing you it seems like you've only made some vague comment about NK not coming from a D2er and some comment about wanting to get a seer on Ginko, which I guess is partly the answer to the question but I'd like more on this anyways (example: Thoughts on possible West or Metal wolves?).

@farside: It's because I didn't talk about that earlier, but the way you got my read on Metal may be backwards. I voted Metal out of wanting to do stuff with my vote and feeling like Metal was a good place for it (wolf suspicion and whatever question I asked him when I made the vote being part of that). I was conflicted on the idea of Metal lynch basically from the get-go (vote=/=lynch blabla) and I say this a couple of posts after my Metal-vote where I asked Ginko to discuss the idea with me, with him being on the townMetal side, at that point the action of Metal looking at the Ari wagon D1 and me liking that was already on my mind, but didn't want to mention it before seeing what Ginko had to say about Metal. Stuff with Acryon happened later and I also started to assign more importance to connections I was seeing between Acryon/Metal, both because of Acryon and Metal's behaviors. Acryon took the spot because I feel worse about him.

@West: It wasn't that you didn't counterargue against farside, but that you used the arguments yourself. Here's where my head was about that: I don't expect anyone to actively shut down people townreading them with reasons that don't seem suspicious, but using those reasons yourself when they are based on an assumption that you might know to be wrong seems off, in this case assumptions of Lal's meta that I think were wrong (and that I think people who played that game with scumLal could see as wrong too). Eh, think about it like this: Let's say Kai is playing the game, she votes me at some point D1, gets lynched, turns scum. Someone says "Yo, Lyserg's totes town because Kai voted him", that's K for someone who doesn't know Kai and if people suspect me they should address that, but I wouldn't also point at that as a good reason to not suspect me when I think of Kai as someone who busses like there's no tomorrow (maybe this is too personal of a position(?)).

   Also, can you tell me how do Acryon's slot, Metal and Vyse possible lynches compare to you?

@Pisskop: Can you point me to the implied townPrawn game from when you say he was acting as you'd expect from townPrawn? And also be more specific about the things that remind you of townPrawn, please. Also also, can you clarify me the last line of your Ginko read? Not sure what that meant. (I feel bad for not having better more relevant questions for you atm T-T ...).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I got sick and only phone is available to post and have to wake up early again, sorry if I missed stuff and whatever.

Gonna default to Metal lynch if Acryon wagon dies, not opposed to Ari lynch.
@Cheet: I get the things you like about Metal, but do you see the case on him and what do you think about it? I mean, I get that bad posts dont necessarily take away from unrelated good ones but the reverse can be said too. I wanted to lay out Acryon case but really not something im in the mood for right now, can I be sellfish and ask you to look at our interactions instead? Think the only thing I didnt directly bring up that could go towards that case is that I feel him pointing me to that one fluffy Ari post to justify the activelurking point came too late in our discussion thus making me feel he just dug that out after the fact and wasnt originally part of why he said that.

@West: Its not that, its that i dont really think the interactions mean you are not the wolf, not sure if that makes sense. The Kai analogy is the best way I had to describe my feelings.

@Pisskop: Think you missed my questions. Me perception of Prawns general play started to become somewhat similar to my perception of Lal so i wanted townPrown meta to compare. Stuff about asking permission: That was me turning on other players to help me account for what I think was me omgusing and/or playstyle clashing over acryons read on me, i didnt really see it as fair characterization of my general play but i felt too biased to make the misrep call without outsiders input, there were specific reasons to ask the specific people i mentioned there, ask me again if thats really important to you for some reason; because no one cared to address that im chalking that up to internal biases. The lurking thing had similar playstyle clash related reasons, the development of that point and that it was the one thing he emphazised on some post (one that said something about lurking 101) made me feel worse about it and discard the idea that my feelings towarda that were pure bias. Not sure i get your remarks on 510, that was an answer to something farside asked.

Someone go iso Ari and tell me if this anti NKA position existed at any point prior. @Ari: Lolwhat the nettenette question. Not sure i get how wests reaction to your metal vote makes him wolf but then again im not looking back at that right now. Didnt expect such a positive read on me uttering stuff about wifom and hating you, i reacted before fully realising it couldve been a reaction test and when i read my own reaction i could more easily see people seeing it as some silly off the cuff reaction or even a dumb not well thought out softpush than anything that positive... didnt really question you in any meaningful way on that reaction either (?).

Pedit not reading that right now.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Prawn should try actually doing stuff rather than say we should do stuff.

Remembered there was something about quiet days in pisskop's post: I meant the 24 hours kind of day.
Also @pisskop: Was talking about questions about your Prawn and Ginko reads that I made at the end of some recent post but w/e. Can you clarify me more about the choice of metal over ari? Not sure how much of the change is due to policy/info lynching regarding Metal being "dead weight" and his flip influencing your reads. Dont really agree with the thing about Metal going for active player lynches because Ari has been having periods of absence and because of Metal suspecting Jordans slot out of lurking.

@Ari: clarify me your questioning of pisskops nka talk and your stance on nka (also what do you mean all nulls except for you? He had that acryon/orc read weve been talking about). Tell me more about Metals Ginko read and why you dont consider it being just because he didnt have a good read on the alot

@Metal: Something about you still claiming just gut on ari and me feeling like youve done almost no effort to take that further. How much more confident are you on the West scumread in relation to Aris?

Ugh, I feel like I need more time but w/e.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Bleh, those questions to ari are too roundabout and inviting of theory talk

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Freakin phone >.<. Continuing: Which id rather avoid right now. @ari: Why is nka now useless when you agreed "pretty fully" with Johnnys nka?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I actually kind of like aris response there of nka that reaches practical conclusions vs nka that doesnt. His read on my reaction is fine except it doesnt account for why he said he liked where my questioning went (which i feel is nowhere in that there was barely any meaninful questioning there). Dont get the unvote there, specially when he says stuff about having a theory that made him like the pisskop and metsl lymches better.

Pisskops change to metal felt weird to me at first but the response is fine i guess. Currentlh wondering the same thing i always wonder on info lynches in how his reads would be affected if he flips town, but whatevs. The more paranoid side of me sees the change as possible bussing with the added plus of maybe being able to set up mislynches out of the flip.

Metals last post made me wonder if the ari wagon being stagnated was a reason he wasnt voting him and why hed still have his vote on west when that one seems even moreso than aris.

Oh hey vyse, maybe be actually useful?

Also hi, im here, who else is?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Why shower when you can magia, aei.

Yay pk is here, if you are scum you should self vote, thats always fine. Also, thats kind of avague statment that might as well be theory talk, about the antagonizers, but yeah. in my mind theres a you/metal and ari dychotomy if one side flips scum im more or less clearing the other (where i feel neither you or ari are wolf but metal might still be) and since i feel both sides had something questionable in how they talked about tbe other im gonna suspect one side more if the other flips town.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

<15 m
Someone pls.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

This kill thou.

VOTE: Ari
Assuming PK is town and prolly Metal nonmafia (because assuming Ari is scum, Young sprinkling suspicion on Acryon, and Jordan making no effort whatsoever to distract from the Acryon and Metal lynches).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(Prolly gonna have ~24 hours of absence after this post)
Ari, explain unvote by the end of last day please. Also, explain your Metal and PK suspicions more, like your

This doesn't mean he's not on a team with them or that they are not scum of some sort. This shouldn't excuse the scum reads people had pre-flip.

doesn't tell me much other than Im not sure why you arent voting one of them.
Pedit: I mean, the first one feels a bit like grasping.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Actually, it did occur to me that he was trying to specifically trying to lump to together Ari/Metal.

Assuming there was some kind of bus it would be either Ari or Metal. Or acryon, but Look at Metal's response come deadline. 'Sorry' Pisskop. That's a decent scumtell.

unvote

vote: Metal

Not sure if i skimmed over something i shouldn't have or is cause I'm in a sort of hurry, but I've got no idea what you are saying in the first para, "he" who? was lumping Ari and Metal together and how?

As for the second: I don't remember, sorry, think Cheet and West have played more with scumAri than me (I'd metaISO Ari, but dont have time) pedit have to go. It bugged me cause i didnt understand it, so it was to allow the lynch to go either way 0.0? Bleh gtg.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I'm being a lazy sleepy sleepyhead because all-nighter and stuff (V/LA is otherwise over). Need to reread because I've been doing a lot of skimming over lately.
(Sorry if any of the following has been stated clearly before or answered already, but I'm really having trouble focusing on ISOs and being thorough right now)

@Cheet: Can you give me your thoughts on the Young/Acryon interactions? It's been a long time, but SA's Book I: The Swash game's been at the back of my mind regarding that (thou I recall he was more assertive in his bussing there). I still like the thought that Jordan would've made more (literally anything more) than just encourage both wagons if either one of them had been mafia... I'm gonna try looking for Jordan's meta to see if I can validate/correct this thought after getting some sleep...@farside: I think you said you've played with Jordan(?), do you have any significant thoughts on that? (. . . tbh I at least kinda just want to keep the associative reads for today for simplicity's sake).

@Pisskop: Vyse is a decent wolf candidate; recall you making some small comment about it, but what are your (expanded) thoughts for Metal as possible wolf? (also, this is dumb, but when you say "

He

[Young slot]" you mean just Young or all three players that occupied the slot P= ?).

@Ari: What are your thoughts on Acryon/Young interaction (... oh hey I asked Cheet that already; I have no preference here over who I'd rather answer it first). Is the "crazy theory" you had on PK/Metal that you mentioned by the end of Day 2 still relevant, can you elaborate on it already? About you being "extremely torn on West", is that like a null or a conflicting read? Tell me more about that.

Stuff I'm not getting (maybe out of sleepiness): The idea that Ari flipping town clears West. That Young had a scumread on Ari, when what he said was that he understood the stuff against him but didn't think it scummy himself. That Young was distancing himself from Ari when what happened was kinda the opposite (a defense... distancing is more like bussing or I'm all lost on my terminology :c (?)).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(Damn it Ari, "9ish" means nothing if I don't know your timezone xD)
@farside: ? I didn't say that 0.0(?). Eh, I'd say more stuff here but it'd be a repeat of what I said at 744 to you.

@Cheet: What's your current read on Metal?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@PK: Hm, I like the "too many references" point, I remember scumMetal being less inclined to talk about scumMe when we were together. Btw, from the ribbing quote: I felt like the "newbtown" read was kind of unnatural there, considering the stuff he's saying about her I'd expect at least some form of explicit "I'm wary" or w/e coming to conclude the read rather than that (@Cheet you can talk at me about this too).

@Cheet: Thoughts on Acryon('s slot)/Metal interactions?

@farside:

Right now just based on interaction and scum reads.

You mean with Lal or just in general?

@Ari: This is kind of a belated question, but were your townvibes on Prawn based off anything in specific or...

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

(That resignation thou =P)

@Metal: Answer Cheet's question.

@farside: Can you tell me if you are ignoring me when I address you on purpose? It'd make me less frustrated to know if that's a thing that's happening on purpose or not ;-; (Hmm... this reads kinda passive aggressive: it's not, don't know how else to ask this).

Can whoever has hammerpower hold on for a while for question-answering to happen? (I also want Prawn to actually say stuff this day #hopeful;-;)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Ari: Are there any coo' reasons (and more specific than the genuine scumhunting point) as to why PK turned into "if anything Wolfy" now, when considering the PK+Metal suspicions from before? (also, the crazy theory D=, you are gonna have to tell me about that after the game ends if that's still not a thing worth talking about)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Screw you Ari, are you scum just mocking me with your answers T-T? (my internet connection is being all crappy right now <.<)

@Prawn: Not counting my opening post, Ari started genuinely bothering me during D2, specially late D2. I agree with Cheet in that some of his votes seem opportunistic in a self preservation kind of manner. Probably the thing that pinged me the most is that his initial read on my reaction to his D1 naked Metal vote makes no sense (the corrected one does, but does not account for the thing that bothered me more there, in that he said he liked where my questioning went, but I didn't throw any meaningful questioning his way when reacting to the naked Metal vote, then his read on that feels just made up really and makes me paranoid about him possibly buddying up to me [this also because of his jump at farside questioning me]).

  Don't really have any super strong 3rd scum suspect if Ari is scum, you are a nice one but the D1 vote on him and overboard defense throws doubt into that thought, also considering Vyse a possibility for his akward vote out of the Ari wagon and into Ginko. I also have a nebulous thought regarding Cheet maybe bussing him late D2 when other wagons were more likely to happen and then a combo of him being locked into his townMetal read and the bus + the flip making him pressured to vote him again now crosses my mind, but depending on Ari's flip I'm gonna ISO Cheet more carefully about that later. Young's defense of Ari wasn't overboard enough to throw me into the "too obvious for scum" side (using farside's bolded quotes: the first one is not really that strong of a defense, the second one is more using him as a pivot to go for other people), also because Ari's meta really facilitates seeing stuff against him as just part of his regular play and the use of the lynchbait argument, which I could see scum familiar with Ari (like Young) taking advantage of.

@PK: I've been going back and forth with wolf suspicion mostly between the different nonLal voters. Think the existence of seer sorta lazied me up on that front; Vyse was the last place my mind settled on that front. Cheet vote seems coo' thou. Gonna ISO Cheet and Lal about that now, hmm... where does he coach Lal? (also, eh, Jordan kill didn't strike me as seerhunting kill, but I'd rather not talk more about that point because implicit PRhunting would prolly come out of such a convo and eff that).

@Metal: The "on and off Ari" point feels kinda exaggerated, wasn't it just the one RVS-ish vote the one he unvoted? I'm feeling his vote on Ari now as a combo of an extension of his vote on D2 and the info provided by the flip. The null reads point is meh if only because I can empathize with that, are you reading that as scummy in general or just from Cheet and how do your own reasons for having lots of nulls D1 and only focusing on Ari and West most of the rest of the game factor into this point when thinking about Cheet's reasons for having nulls? Need to look over Cheet's ISO more carefully to see how I feel about the "pushing" point.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Just getting up and skimmed over everything, gonna actually read after lunch. I'm more or less of the same opinion as farside (also considering the recent flip I was perfectly OK with not focusing on wolfhunting at least this one more day; which is prolly something the wolf was grinning about, but whatevs). lolthismess. PK's way of arguing bothers me and I'm not sure if that's just personality clash again .-. ... Cheet is sorta OMGUSing? Yaay... (he didn't answer my lastest request to him either but whatever at this point <.<).

@PK: Can you talk to me about your current read of Ari and, if it changed from after you voted him today, tell me about the evolution of that read please. I mean, I don't really trust you in the jump to Cheet, nor like Metal's reason to suspect him, nor care for Ari's sort of collected attitude with an ever-so-subtly AtE in that one large "last thoughts" post (and tbh I really don't want all the three of you living much longer =/ ).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

You are being kinda unnecessarily defensive there 0.0. Also, don't get the reference to post 771, you meant one of Ari's previous posts from that same page?

@Cheet: Talk to me about PK+Ari team while considering Day 2's interactions.

@Metal: About the pushing point: Ginko totally pushed for Acryon too on D1.

@Ari: *Preemptively scolding you so you don't sideline this mess*.

PEDIT: Stop that "lynch me" crap T-T.

Back @Pisskop: OK, taking a look at the case. Before coming into this: The sudden switch puts too much of the focus on you so I'm at least willing to see it as that you really do think Cheet's the wolf... Was writing stuff on the case and reading Ginko's ISO and other stuff, but West's post made me decide that I prefer having Cheet calm himself down and respond to the bad points himself P=... just gonna leave one I don't get at all and the one I support the most (besides the general idea that he wasn't analysing Lal herself too much).
- 892: I don't get your point here.
- Regardless of the "coaching" point, you do have a point about him defending Lal through questions to others (about the specific quote used, I think his questioning to me was justified, considering the unconfident way I talked on my votepost, but Johnny asking me if I'd checked Lal's town meta when that's what I was already discussing with Ari and Ari had already told me to do that felt a bit weird/unnecessary).

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Prod-dodge-y post:
Ari going out of his way to get the focus back on himself/Metal/PK is interesting and I prolly need to go back to scumAri games to compare what happens when Ari wagons form. More thoughts later.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Metal: Active-lurker is a closer definition. I feel like your game is way too on the reactionary side of things (where it is mostly question answering or doing things out of others prodding you to) and it's strengthening the feeling of you being on the sidelines.

   You were just discussing suspicion on Cheet and didn't comment on CheetVPK or even just the case for wolfCheet, the fact that your reasons to suspect Cheet were somewhat reachy while simultaneously bypassing the possible Lal connections is just strange to me, and it makes it seem like you are trying to avoid making those connections or participating in that discussion (... I guess there's that deadline question to farside and Cheet but I mean, I echo Ari's questioning of that). Also, I meant "other than D1" when I said "most of the rest of the game". While I don't really have a problem with Ginko being relatively vote-happy (specially not during D1), I suppose I understand the being used to Cheet being more certain, but in some way that reads like one of those "You are not as good as I want you to be" arguments that would make Johnny sad =P (nor do I think of "not pushy" as a characteristic of scumCheet).

@Cheet: Didn't press again on this because I didn't want to overload you when Cheet VS PK was happening but: Thoughts on Acryon('s slot)/Metal interactions? (or not necessarily interactions as much as how they address (or don't) each other and the points being made on each other).

I do kinda like Prawn trying to come up with associations. There's some things I disagree with in there, but that's whatever.

@Prawn

: The "farside is town" is because of a hard townread you have? Tell me your thoughts about the wolfCheet case too, please.

Was gonna ask farside how she read PK's switch to Cheet but she already kinda responded to that...

@farside

:

Why I find metal scum is his looking for wolf only but ari did say something about the lal/metal interaction that leads me to think maybe wolf.

I think his focus on Metal lately was more on the mafiahunting side of things, what thing Ari said?

Actively trying to steal the focus is just what, I suppose I can relate it to stuff Ladd did more than anything I can remember from scumAri, but the more logical/stubborn part of me really doesn't want this to be a thing that influences my read on Ari >.<.
@farside: I'm not really coming to meaningful conclusions about that, but if you still care about scumAri games:

Spoiler:

(town)Ladd being all "come at me bro"-like about his own lynch sorta reminds me of what he's doing right now (boop, unless this was actually Brandon?) and I can see him not wanting to be a future distraction like that again.

Read some of two recent scum Ari games (Last day of a game with scum Ari; The point of another scumAri game where he's the last mafia and he starts getting serious votes... there were no-lynches and that went out for a while .-.). Nothing like this I think. Problem I have with this is that Ari didn't have partners left at those points or those were points where mafia had to be lynched (or he claimed PR <.<), so there'd be no point in him adopting an attitude where he shows himself willing to die for the greater good.

(just remembered that if you don't have an account, you can still go to the bottom of the thread and use the "sort by [author]" to get a pseudoISO view).

@Ari: I just realised you never got back to me about my Young/Acryon question, but I'm pretty sure I had a specific reason to ask that that I can't remember <.<. I can't really come up with good questions and that makes me sad >.<... How confident are you in your Cheet townread? Are your objections to the better parts of PK's case for wolfCheet based on the conviction that Cheet would be more willing to bus a scummate?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

My thoughts on this game are getting super messy and I prolly need to take a step back to reasses <.<

@Albert: Hi. Why Ari wolf? (and to a lesser degree, why PK and Cheet mafia?).

@PK: Your Cheet case felt really comf-bias'd at some points, 892 being the worst in that sense, because of how easy it is to double check Metal's answer to the "I will cut you" stuff, which is literally 2 posts below where Ginko said that; chiding Cheet for "not being able to keep his story straight" and then pointing to him countering the coaching point and him then defending about the "soft-defense" part is kinda misleading in how those were two different things and part of it is your fault for the bad wording and somewhat reachy argument that was the "coaching" thing. I'm not gonna sheep you on wolfCheet is what I'm saying. I think Metal is at least a decent compromise of possible wolf suspicion while also being someone who's done things that bother me in a more general sense thou, so from your pool, I'd choose him.

@Cheet:

Spoiler:

Was more interested in the way Metal acted during D2; I felt like both players were somewhat dodgy about each other, and I found myself frustrated at the resistance I saw coming from Metal (to the point I felt he was avoiding me on that) when I was prodding him about Acryon and wanting thoughts other than the Orci stuff. For example, from D1: Even for a reactionary player, don't you think the lack of commentary on your and Vyse's case for Acryon was weird (when considering he had a scumread there and that was presenting itself as an alt to the Lal lynch, who Metal was vocal about townreading)?

The vote Metal threw in during D2 was sorta gambit-y if they are both scummates though, but what I said above still is stuff that bothers me.

Asking you because your view is somewhat opposite to mine and I value your opinion, but also I think Ginko townread Metal at some point during D1/early D2 and since then I feel you've been neglecting him.

What's your current opinion on Ari and the stuff where he deflects from PK's push on you and onto himself? Tbh I prefer the lynch focus on those two (PK too I guess, but my thoughts on him got messier after his push on you, which the not nitpicky part of me reads as townie, while the other is really bothered by the worst parts of his case on you) and the last flip makes me feel like we have this day as a freebie for the unfinished Day 2... hmm... if I'm honest with myself and my feelings I think I started developing a bit of a policy-lynch attitude in my choices here (Ari because without him attaining more of a conf-town status I can't see many people voting someone other than him during a LyLo situation, specially if Mafia is the last scumteam standing; Metal the same to a lesser degree, but also because lynching him feels helpful to the PoE of wolves and generally aiding the seer, which is something I was OK with not completely focusing on right now, but I'd rather not postpone it more than D4 because of the advantages a conftownie brings and the ever-increasing likeliness of the seer being killed each new night... I feel kinda weird realising my thought processes ended up in here >.<), but I want to push this a bit more regardless. Btw, your spoiler button text opens with quotes but never closes them and one of your post-links doesn't point to the right place...listen to me Keely, you'll get an F if you botch it a third time~

@Metal: What is your read of farside?

I feel dumb because I agree with PK's assesment of Albert-meta because of a few games I skimmed, but (meta aside) "you are posting more content/being nicer than I expected" are super stupid reasons to vote someone and not really something I want to punish ;-;

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Can you be more explicit about the associations you are seeing? Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but I'm trying to relate this to the known wolf (Lal) and mafia (Jordan/YYR[AKA Young]) flips and I'm not sure I'm following your thought process.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I blame animu and catching up with podcasts... just realised it's 6+ AM here and I don't feel close enough to finishing my post/doing the amount of re-read I wanted to, and West's already complaining about walls (sorry <.<, I guess this forum's wider text-box sorta fools me into thinking the posts aren't as long as usual...).

Dropping some stuff, I'll respond to the questions tomorrow because I want sleep (questions from West, Cheet and farside noted).

Either they are voting and then quickly unvoting, or outright defending, or championing rival wagons.

Sorry, I still don't get it =/. Ari didn't do this with Lal at all (nor vice-versa). And in the case of Cheet/PK and Young... I guess Young sorta did that vote/unvote thing with Ginko and Jordan championed Metal/PK (where he preferred Metal)(?).

@West: What's up with asking PK to respond for Acryon? I get it if you defend when someone brings up you maybe being wolf, but at this point you are on the offensive about getting people to know you are not scum. Not expanding on this so as not to put words into PK's mouth, but the question about Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory also reinforces that more-than-overdefensive feeling.

Also, yeah, I feel Metal is out of that zone where people should give him newb passes for whatever.

@Cheet: Will go more in depth later, but, in the pragmatic side of why I like that lynch, you saying the pushes are "too easy" is kind of an answer to that question.

@Prawneater

: The "farside is town" is because of a hard townread you have? Tell me your thoughts about the wolfCheet case too or just PKvCheet in general, please.

@farside: You never got back to me about the thing that you liked about wolfMetal theory :c. Atm, the "who" side of your question is: Ari, Metal and PK with a tentative of West. Will respond to the "why" part later.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@PK: I know I criticized him, but still do address West yo.
@Ari:

Ari please.

That quote farside posted is because she said you said something about Metal/Lal interactions that made her think of maybe wolfMetal, and then I asked her about it. On an unrelated note, you said you were going to get into the info-lynching argument or whatever but never did (I mean, I can't give you towniepoints for that stuff if you say you are gonna expand on that but don't).

@Cheet: The other part of the pragmatic side of the argument is just reducing the pool of people I can see as wolves.
As for stuff on Metal that bothers me (@West) (Blabla walls, sorry, I've made worst :c ):

Spoiler:

- Her treatment of Lal, particularly, his first actual read of her (broken into two section for rhetorical purposes):

Okay but seriously, she is playing a very noob or very elaborate game (damn English major). I've read her posts several times am having trouble following her train of thought. She oddly defends me from Ari by voting for Ari. Justifies the vote more by pointing to West's reasons. Lal, has anything changed for you since Ari has answered your question? Who is your next scum read.

I don't get how this, concludes with this:

My read on lal is noob town atm

"Noob" has no reason to mean newbtown here and everything else he is saying doesn't strike me as any sort of reason to think she is town. I don't necessarily expect him to scumread her here, but after the first section I'm sorta assuming he was going to say he was wary or something, Ari is also right when he says Lal has used reasoning from scumparters before so that's also something that feels like Metal should've been more wary of when mentioning how Lal used West's reasoning.
 
  It reads to me like an unjustified jump to a newbtown read. There is questioning, but the questions seem fairly innocuous relative to the other Lal was undergoing. This can be read as a product of irl friendship, but that's a lame way to dismiss this, specially because townMetal actively pursued scumLal in the Madoka game. End of 336 looks decent, but Imma be petty here and not give him townie points based on that because I tried continuing that conversation and Metal didn't. He saying that Lal was defending him when Lal's argument was that Ari was scum with him also feels somewhat scumslippy, but eh, slips... thinking about it Lal's behavior around Metal is also a weird, when the topic is Ari she argues at some points that Ari's naked Metal vote could've been scum distancing, but when the topic is Metal she just townreads him and makes no mention of that bussing idea (maybe double check me here because I just quickly ctrl-f'd "Metal" on her ISO to verify this thought).

- Sidelining the Acryon wagon. I mean, I get what you are saying, I feel like I can come up with scum motivations, but that feels like conf-biasing myself into it. My problem is that I also don't know why town would just be like that. Ugh, maybe I'm being too unforgiving of possibly busy/lazytown?

- Conversation about Acryon during D2 ...eh, screw quoting... relevant posts: 507(Me), 511(Metal), 531(Me), 533(Metal), 536(Me), 592(Metal), 594/612(Me), and finally 634(Metal) and 648(Me). ... In retrospect, I feel like I failed to convey to him what I wanted out of the conversation during the middle sections of it >.<, but whatever, look at this or ISO us in parallel and tell me your takeaway (maybe avoid the rest of this paragraph before reading it because biases). This is what I meant when I said I felt he was dodgy about Acryon during D2, in that I feel the analysis of the slot beyond what he already had on D1 is almost completely lacking. I was initially bothered that he didn't really follow up on 648, maybe it was my fault for sorta closing the convo there when I said that the problem was "already engraved in my mind"(?), but I did try to make a final push to engage him about it.

- I agree with you about the "deeper" reads thought but I feel like this didn't really carry over from D1 that much, some stuff that has come up after that feels born out of other people prodding him. Had some problems with his read on you that I already mentioned. I also feel the lurkscum thing for both Gliffie and Young was just cheap, but they were scum, so whatever <.<.

@farside: The "why" (trying to make it fast from now on): Ari, because associative read, questioning that gave me off vibes to Metal (the timer thing) and Acryon during D2 (the Acryon one was sorta resolved but it still felt off... "leading" I guess) also him misrepresenting Acryon (591, I feel the last part as misrep-y), feeling dishonesty out of his read on me regarding my reaction to his nakedMetal vote, and I'm also sheeping Cheet on the opportunistic votes point. Metal is up^ there. PK, mostly because of my grips with Acryon during D2. West 'cause at some points I feel he exaggerates points or goes overboard with his attitude, but it's really mostly gut.

Ninja'd by vote count and Prawn. Oh yeah, Metal is at L-1 =P. Intent to hammer and all that jazz. I want to have this convo with Cheet before endday if possible, so hammering when there's ~24 hours left (last day taught me that less than that starts being way too close to deadline here .-.)

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Cheet: Yep, that's where my head went after those convos with him, but yeah that's fine, that D2 last minute vote really got me doubting that scumteam. The idea that most of what bothers me about Metal that's not about Lal can be chalked up to a lazy/busytown argument is really starting to get to me <.<. On the other hand, I started seeing him more as possible wolf when writing about the Lal read and interactions in my last post.

  Tell me thoughts on wolfMetal. 168 was West's last explanatory post before Lal voted Ari, so I'm assuming that's at least part of what she referred to in 171, note that half of that West post is suspicion on Metal. It wasn't something that was brought up a lot, but (and also given the regular supposition that scum likes to look consistent) I think there's some inconsistency/asymmetry to the way Lal treated Ari and Metal when considering that the Ari/Metal scumteam idea was something she supposedly agreed with, and that is bugging me (I'm thinking it could be Lal being unsure/afraid about committing to a bus). L-1 Ahoy VOTE: Metal, I feel all "Ah ha!" about this thought thou...

But that PK wagon does look like funtimes. @Albert: How do you read PK's sudden switch and push for Cheet?

@West: Where's your head at when placing Metal on a scumteam, if mafia: With whom?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Awesome. I'm gonna townread you just because that post made me happy.

You can just tell me I'm dumb Cheet, that's fine. Lal didn't strike me like she feared to get reads out there, she was quick to solidly townread both you and West and state suspicions for various others players (except she actually didn't read West at first, but I mean). With Metal it's just some initially convoluted read and some "townvibes" that clash with part of her case on Ari, but after sleeping on it the more I started thinking that maybe it was because of what you said just now about him "deathtunnelling" on her on a previous game, so I'm gonna follow my gut, stop being afraid of being wrong, leave that and:
VOTE: West
West wagon is best wagon. Let's go Cheet, sheep me sheeping you reaffirming my gut.

Ari is my default lynch. If necessary I can come back here pretty much whenever. People need to start talking about availability because fuck letting a no-lynch happen again.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@West: Where's your head at when placing Metal on a scumteam, if mafia: With whom?

Pisskop, mostly because of Acryon/Metal interactions yesterday.

I fail to see how West wagon suddenly became best wagon, Lyserg.

Tell me about Metal's last minute PK vote.

It rhymes, therefore, it's clear that
the wagon that is best
is the one that's on West.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Phoneposting while waking up. Whoa, there arent even votes on Ari. I was gonna question West on not voting Metal when that was his most confident suspicion and wasnt longer at l-1, but theres the vote now i guess.

@West why is the wagon gross but everyone is taking flak except me, im clearly shifting gears in mood/playstyle there how is my vote the less suspicious to you <.<?

Also I have serious doubts about Metal unnecesaarily bussing PK like that when in your game he barely would even touch me. Like i guess he couldve learnt from that?

Will read this thing better when im on my computer...

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Read this stuff.

My issues with West (Pedit, because I'm not in a "summarize and be concise" state I'm gonna spoiler):

Spoiler:

were what I said earlier and most everything I've directly questioned him about. The "Lal jumped ship on Ari" thing also seems like an exaggeration but I already questioned West saying that during D1 <.< (where Lal, in spite of saying Ginko might've had a point, said she believed the option of Ari stumbling/backpedalling was more likely and West is acting as if she had unvoted Ari or something instead).

I didn't like it when he quesitoned Acryon on something he had already been questioned and responded to during my interactions with him because Acryon it looked like West was more interested in antagonizing than in figuring him out with that and considering Acryon was undergoing constant questioning from me and farside at the time that looked somewhat opportunistic. That wolfWest PK question seemed like similar instance of questioning for the sake of questioning (or alternatively questioning to push the view that he couldn't be the wolf, but that sounds overboard even for scumWest) because PK had already indicated that he didn't believe West could be wolf before. West shouldn't go unnoticed unless there are good associative tell reasons for that to happen because he is good scum and knows to make his way through a game, his answer to most questioning are just fine in the sense that they are logical/understandable but, besides maybe his response about Ari's dumb RVS arguments, they were never something like make me go "Oh yeah, how did I not see that, I was totally wrong questioning this" and I'm gonna hate myself if West is scum and I let him go over him correcting himself because I remember him mocking me over that in the Monogatari game scum chat <.<.

I think it'd be pretty dumb for him to react to this in an overdefensive manner when that's exactly one of the things I'm questioning, but that also feels like the smart move from town so that's whatever, the delay in placing his vote on Metal feels like part of consciously not being defensive/reactionary, specially because Metal's vote is just what when considering he thought the D1 Acryon wagon seemed "out of the left field" when this wagon feels faster and with less clear reasoning behind it. Placed West more in the wolf side of things, for reasons, but Young trying to associate me with West and questioning Ginko and me but not West about it is also somewhat off to me.

Whatever, don't see this wagon picking up again, not with Metal/Ari still present anyways. I at least got all excited about leading a fun wagon with Cheet for a moment xP (sorry I left you there, should've posted to say I was going to sleep I guess T-T). Intent to hammer Metal. If Metal is mafia, idk, PK is still a suspect there, Metal's reaction to the West quickwagon just reinforced the feeling that his reaction to the Acryon one was off. Need to reread over Metal's interactions with Vyse because I don't remember anything about that. If Metal is wolf that'd just make me happy.

Ohai @farside. Eh, I could follow an Ari wagon and I feel Cheet might as well later, but after D2 and given that I don't know who else will be there, I don't really feel like starting another last minute wagon.

P-edit: I'm more suspicious of people not being suspicious of me at this point than not T-T. Wait, what (*ISOs Ari*) what are you even saying about the wolves there 0.0. Didn't you agree with Johnny's NKA post that was also all about how killing wolves should be priority? And say that Acryon going after scum rather than wolf made no sense because of the night kill, like, you did say that "both present the same overall threat to town", but still. PP-EDIT more people, yay.
Screw everything. VOTE: Ari.
Walls are walls and whatever.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Blah. Gonna sporadically be checking here for like, the next 8-12 hours. If nothing happens with Ari wagon or if it is too half-assed by the "12 hours left" mark I'm just gonna vote Metal.
Ari's push for PK over the wolf thing reads like BS after his reaction to Johnny trying to prioritize wolves.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^
Johnny posted NKA, pushed for wolfhunt, you said:

Spoiler:

Got called into work but posting a quick thought update from reading this page.

I agree with pretty fully with Johnny's post there. I'd had the same thoughts on D2ers being likely to not kill D2ers immediately. He also did seem pretty vanilla to me. I like this logic.

I have votes on me, but no questions. I'm sure I missed some and will read them in catchup in a few hours, but if anyone has any for me go for it and I'll do my best.

Also, vote is on Ari because the slot is definitely mafia.

Ouch. My feelings!

People are saying I am definitely opposite of Lal. Why does this make me a scum team member and not a town member?

I mean, I hadn't thought that hard about endgames, so eh, I suppose I get you worries there, but the change of heart strikes me as really off in how it seems more done to push suspicion than just because you changed your view of the game state. Like, the idea would be that we end up on a 6Tv2M situation if we lynch the wolf today, and while I get how mafia could maybe start a push for wolves, I don't really see that as such an alignment indicative thing when 6Tv2M sounds more town-sided than not.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Gg!
I really wasn't expecting Ari to get lynched there, I was still hopeful about people being able to figure out Cheet, but still thought the more likely scenario was PK and then ABR (or the reverse) P=.

T'was a cool game. Thanks to Honey Bee for hosting. Being my first game here, I'm also happy about seeing people who have styles fairly different to what I'm used to, variety is cool (also, apologies to West and Ari for my dumb last minute pushes). Town played a decent game, I think, but Cheet was just to well positioned relative to the remaining players.

Shut up, Cheet, you guys deserve the win =P.