Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[goodmorning]

@GM: So what if my case was weak? I thought it was strong. I pushed it and I figured out I was wrong. What's the problem with that?

The main problem is the latter point, which you have apparently ignored: reluctance to share.

I had a lot of points on my case. Not just 29.

Yeahhhhhh, let me recap your 4-point case (634) on me:
1) I don't like 29.
2) She didn't read some pages but was still actively participating.
3) She voted someone she'd been calling Scum all game.
4) When asked to clarify her scumread, she did so, summing up the points she'd previously made in handy list form.

Bizarrely, I don't really find any of those to be valid points.

I need to eat something, but main Shinobi problem: case a bit weak, reluctance to share not great. main uct problem: prodding people is absolutely not antitown and he needs to explain why he said that.

It wasn't a prod, it was him saying "lets lynch this fuck"

You can't read his abrasive language and think it was a townie prodding for info

You don't think wagoning or threatening to wagon someone can get results that just questioning them can't?

And personally, I don't find it that abrasive. It's all just rhetoric, and I find that important to remember.

[nopointinactingup]

1> Ok you did, still not a reason to retain that vote for 4 posts. Maybe I wasn't reading your post carefully but you started this conversation so no .. I was not taking potshots at you either.
2> Because. That's not my style. I'm not going to point out all the questions you made during and before post 143 because that's just dumb.
The point is I thought you were suspicious because you didn't draw any pressure/conclusive votes after interacting with the players. I know that was a small point to draw on so I didn't hesitate to unvote you.

1. What does the number of posts have to do with anything? I left the vote on because I hadn't decided where else to put it, and until he flaked he was my top scum read. The flaking mostly negated that though, and Scripten's posting set him back to null. But the point was that you claimed I

hadn't

provided reasoning, implying that you had checked, maybe hoping that those reading wouldn't bother to read and see you were misleading them?

2. Again you are trying to back down because you know you can't back up your accusation with fact. I'll make it easy for you: Give me one person you thought I didn't vote or offer a conclusion about.

1> Misleading them lol. If you don't think that's far-fetched then vote me. I'm tired of arguing with unreasonable people for fuck knows what reason.
2> You didn't vote or offer read about Zebulin and BBT despite the interactions. And I'm not even accusing you right now. Don't be over your head and think you're grabbing the spotlight for my scum list. I'll make it easy for you. If you aren't satisfied with my explanation, vote me. Don't follow me around like you actually care about what I'm saying

[Peabody]

Ok. I'm probably the lynch for today, party because somehow this game doesn't make sense to me, partly because I don't really feel like making further efforts to defend myself or pushing my case.

Hm.

[Peabody]

NPAU and hephaestus both voting GM is interesting because IIRC several people have floated hephaestus as their 2nd-3rd scummiest player. Perhaps both are scum and neither wants to move for fear of looking even more scummy?

The fact the wagon on heph is small despite him being read as a scummy player may say something.

In the direction of a Heph scum and reluctance of partners to bus him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala, how do you do it?

You don't provide anything solid or substantive but you manage to get away with it without being pressured at all.

It truly is an art.

[Malakittens]

If it makes you feel any better my null read has become a town read on huntress!

Be happy I didn't just reply something snarky to your snark remark BBT.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It was a genuine question coupled with a genuine comment.

[davesaz]

BBT: Is tunneling that going to get us to a lynch?

Mala: Same question for you, what are you doing to advance town objectives?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm hoping Mala gets lynched, yes. When I think I have found scum, I like to see them hang.

[davesaz]

You think you'll talk enough people into joining you, today, before the deadline?
Right now, I'm seeing a no-lynch as a distinct possibility, and I'm not liking it at all. The town is going to need to come together on what we do today.

[Scripten]

You think you'll talk enough people into joining you, today, before the deadline?
Right now, I'm seeing a no-lynch as a distinct possibility, and I'm not liking it at all. The town is going to need to come together on what we do today.

I don't think we're at TOO much risk for a no-lynch. I have a few scumreads whom I would be comfortable voting for, though I'm definitely vying for my top read atm.

Don't we have several players on the NPAU wagon in spirit, just without a vote, anyway?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think you'll talk enough people into joining you, today, before the deadline?
Right now, I'm seeing a no-lynch as a distinct possibility, and I'm not liking it at all. The town is going to need to come together on what we do today.

Probably not, but I still like to leave my vote on scum. Just in case.

[davesaz]

I'm looking at a vote count that is spread out all over the place and a big drop in activity, as though a lot of people are willing to leave it this way.

If the ones who are off on their own have actual reasons for being off the wagon, they should work harder at making a case. Especially since some of these spread out votes are there because the target isn't making cases.

@BBT, we know who you suspected. It's not like that information is going to be lost if you switch. Or you convince me that your lead is better than where my vote is now. I'm not totally invested in the current wagon. It's almost like there are too many good leads, in fact more good leads than there should be scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Who do you consider good leads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My best case on Mala is prob in 691.

It's very difficult to build a case on her because she is very good at actively lurking.

[davesaz]

NPAU, Shinobi, Mala if your're onto something. I thought GM was pushed for the wrong reasons. Can't tell if Hephaestus was sincerely just unable to participate or doesn't know how to reengage without looking scummy. Some of the suspicion against Scripten resonated with me and reminds me of our game together. You're different enough this time, though this asking other people for reads instead of promoting your own still gives me cause for concern.

pedit -- thanks for the link, I'll look at that. Actively avoiding questions about active lurking is pinging me on Mala.

[Malakittens]

Uh, Des, I'm getting reads by players interactions. I scum hunt my way and you scum hunt yours.

My newest two top townreads are {GM & Huntress}. Huntress because of her interactions with NPAU is town-motivated and other half is I'm gut-leaning towards town-Huntress.
My third townread is Shinobi is actually playing very similarly to how he was in that newbie game. His defense of his townreads, the way he's going about hunting. The only thing that was off was his interactions with Uct.

I'm also leaning town on Scripten.

I want to vote Heph, but that's because of the slot owner before Heph. I already raised points on him, but what's stopping me is Josh being on the wagon. Plus I'm not entirely sold on town-Peabody. Heph does feel a bit different than Tit for Tat, but if Uct is right about his meta it could because of a role rather than alignment difference. In Tit For Tat Heph was a town-backup-rolecop.

I wouldn't mind lynching NPAU for a deadline lynch, but I'm not really seeing everything that people are seeing from him. Plus Josh raised a decent point that I agreed with at the time.

I don't really know what to say on Ms. He really feels different. He was active and now it has slowly died and I haven't really seen that from any games I played with sonic before. He's either has been active in games and stayed active or he was inactive and kept that activity throughout the game.

I already have given my thoughts on BBT and Josh. Those are deff on the strong side of my scum reads.

Huntress made a decent point on Uct is how he panicked when being questioned/voted by Shinobi. That was only after one vote and I did not like his defense. My gut is leaning scum, but he has actually done things prior that I have liked. So I'm just going to leave him as null until I can figure out where I really want him to sit.

Dave I am just putting you in the weak-town pile. I had liked Zeb really early on and I have liked things that you have done, but I don't really trust myself to have read Zeb wrong early on.

Anyways that's where I'm sitting in terms of reads.

[davesaz]

I seriously don't know what to do with Shin v Uct. I don't know why he also added my name in the mix. <_<

Any followup here? I bet there has been posting since then.

Lolno. It won't happen.

Josh. There can be games I hop a lot others I dont. It depends on how I'm approaching the game scum hunting wise etc.

Please tell me where I omgus voted you. I was not really liking your posts at all besides the one that felt town, but its something scum or town could do either way.

Also I voted hopped more than you are making out to not have hopped. Voted my RVS then nyayayaa, then bbt, then GM then you.

So yeah anyone who I was trying to read or actively hunt. So all my votes have had reasons besides maybe BBT with the votes.

So pretty much you've only attempted to read about 5 people this game?

Shin -- I didn't like the defense in the newbie game and I sure as hell don't like it now. T_T

At first I misread NPAU's post thought he was saying he was okay with the lynch on himself. Which felt like AtE, but reading back on it further is not what he said at all.

I'm off today so I'll prob look through the game a bit more, but deadline is close so we do need a lynch. So I'll put my vote to the NPAU wagon if needed.

This implied a big burst of activity, which IMO has not materialized. Did NPAU's post reinforce the idea that he's scum, or not. Does that reply, which is not AtE, feel more like scum resigned to being lynched, or town resigned to being lynched. I'm sure a player who claims to be able to read people on sight should be able to draw some conclusion. You're not gung-ho on lynching NPAU, but you're doing nothing to pursue Josh_B where your vote is now. Scummy, no?

If it makes you feel any better my null read has become a town read on huntress!

Be happy I didn't just reply something snarky to your snark remark BBT.

Congratulations, a read update which is meaningless to the current situation. Hopefully you can do better.

[davesaz]

Dammit, why didn't the preview show that new post?
Reading the latest and re-evaluating.

[davesaz]

So the new post 891 invalidates all the points I made in my latest. Don't know why its coming so late, but I really do like the content -- which makes sense though I may disagree with some of the conclusions. It's obviously not a response to the one I was in the middle of writing, and it's a lot more comprehensive than you'd expect from the other Mala post on this page.

Next question -- BBT, I know that Mala could have posted this specifically in response to your read and engineered it to address your point, but what if it's genuine?

[Malakittens]

Right because of I go to reply to that via quote it's going to be a wall, nty.

1. I already just commented on what I thought about Shin v Uct. Read my last post.

2. Thanks for the misrep on there. I don't have to vote someone to attempt to engage them. I engage without voting in order to read someone. I watch their interactions with others.

3. I already stated in my last post that the NPAU case doesn't make sense to me. I have tried to understand it, but I'm just not seeing what others are seeing. The one part that I did comment on felt off. It wasn't something majorly alignment telling because players act differently to being resigned to a lynch. Also I never did say I claimed that I could read NPAU. I already said that GM was a major one I could read like a book in the past and also Huntress.
I don't really do cases. I'm not the best at explaining gut feelings. So trying to pursue or lack of persuading someone to vote someone I'm voting isn't really a scum tell for me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

[Malakittens]

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

Because I don't really gain reads off the bat type thing that people think I do. I try to establish a type of pattern before condemning them. I like to look for meta differences/similarities etc. So yes it takes me normally that long to do a readslist like that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I guess I just didn't expect it to take that long, especially when you named 4 or 5 people that you have played with before that you said you would be able to gain reads on quickly.

It doesn't matter now anyway.

VOTE: NPAU

[davesaz]

Now, is NPAU really the right target? I think, without looking back, that a lot of the case was on inactivity, which is really easy to target.
Don't get me wrong, it's not clear that NPAU is town either. If we've been led astray then go for the perp, and if the case is valid then we lynch and evaluate based on the flip.