Mini 444 - Reverse Mafia Vanilla (Stopped)

[yellowbounder]

Saying this game is going to be hard is an understatment

The problem is that its hard to find a starting point in this game. And it is really hard to decide what constitutes as town play. It seems that with everyone being vanilla the town has to, for the most part, blindly decide who to ressurect. There isin't any easy way to PROVE who is town.

basically, yes.

I would disagree in some respects, since it is mafia played backwards. In an average mafia game, you would call some players pro-town, and trust their judgement, since they make good logical arguments that benefit the town, and you would vote for people who you feel are scummy.

This is the other way around, so protown players get votes, and scummy players get nothing except bad karma. The bandwagon, works as well, but in a different way. Don't forget that this Day 0.25, is almost a Day 1, so anyone speed reviving, is probably attempting to get their scumbuddies on the living block. Bandwagons work through the person's reaction, but more importantly, through other people's reactions, and when they jump on, or not.

I would like to stay away from all the voting for yourselves if possible because everyone is just going to do that. And since its just townies and scum, there is no reason to promote one person over another from a power role perspective.

Quite true, since if everyone self voted, it would be counter productive.
So why not

Vote: logicticus

?

Although that makes me wonder about whether selfvoting, or even self hammering is a protown thing to do. I doubt CD's usual rule of "Self vote = instant hamma" since that would be counterproductive.

[yellowbounder]

Saying this game is going to be hard is an understatment

The problem is that its hard to find a starting point in this game. And it is really hard to decide what constitutes as town play. It seems that with everyone being vanilla the town has to, for the most part, blindly decide who to ressurect. There isin't any easy way to PROVE who is town.

basically, yes.

I would disagree in some respects, since it is mafia played backwards. In an average mafia game, you would call some players pro-town, and trust their judgement, since they make good logical arguments that benefit the town, and you would vote for people who you feel are scummy.

This is the other way around, so protown players get votes, and scummy players get nothing except bad karma. The bandwagon, works as well, but in a different way. Don't forget that this Day 0.25, is almost a Day 1, so anyone speed reviving, is probably attempting to get their scumbuddies on the living block. Bandwagons work through the person's reaction, but more importantly, through other people's reactions, and when they jump on, or not.

I would like to stay away from all the voting for yourselves if possible because everyone is just going to do that. And since its just townies and scum, there is no reason to promote one person over another from a power role perspective.

Quite true, since if everyone self voted, it would be counter productive.
So why not

Vote: logicticus

?

Although that makes me wonder about whether selfvoting, or even self hammering is a protown thing to do. I doubt CD's usual rule of "Self vote = instant hamma" since that would be counterproductive.

Bad Karma: Yellowbounder

So.. you're telling me that it's prudent for a pro-town player to

NOT

vote themselves, changing the ratio of pro-town players and anti-town players? PISH POSH!

Yellowbounder, for argument sake, in a 12 person game, we have 3 scum and 9 townies.

If we go by your infinite wisdom, and a pro-town player isn't allowed to vote themselves, you changed the game from 11 townies and 3 scum. Which allows the mafia to enjoy a better chance of NOT reviving a townie. Since, with 12 in the game, it takes 7 to revive, your method will just rely on the mafia WAITING (since it would basically take ALL of the pro-town players to agree) in order to promote someone. PISH POSH.

Still, it takes 7/9 Protown players right now to promote a pro-town (if the mafia stay off the wagon), so, Yellow, why change it to 7/8? It makes no sense.

I think Yellowbounder is scum.

I thought it was as simple as, if everyone voted for themselves, then nothing would happen. It's like random voting in a mafia game, it does nothing, but it generally gets the game moving. Obviously, people will probably hammer themselves, just like they will hammer someone they want to get rid of.

[yellowbounder]

So basically, if we make an experienced player alive, and he's town, then we win. If he's scum, then we lose.

There's an easy solution to this problem. Make me alive instead.

[yellowbounder]

I don't like putting both Yos and Lee up there because they may be scum working together. I think we should put one of them up there and look else where for the other two.

Vote Yosarian

[/b]

Wait, what?

A and B may be scum, so just revive A?

I'm sorry, this demands a

BAD KARMA: DeanWinchester

[yellowbounder]

Now would be a great time for a karma count!

Mod, can you do something?

[yellowbounder]

So do you not want to revive either of them or do you have an issue with me thinking we should only revive one of the two of them?

I think they are both good players and seem to be town, but them being cool with either one of them being revived has me weary of reviving both of them.

How about we don't revive them if they give out scum tells, and revive them if they try to help the town, instead of arbitrailily reviving one of them because "we need an experienced player"?

[yellowbounder]

It is only page 3. Now wouldn't be a time to make a lynch, and thus I don't think we should revive anyone yet.

[yellowbounder]

Look at it this way guys, proving anything in this game is hard.

You get revived if you're pro town, but since there's no alignment verification, ever, except by NKd townies, it's difficult to prove that you're pro town.

It's likely, that we would probably vote the one who does come up with good logic, and brings stuff to the table, while ignoring the people who suggest that we should definitely revive this person, while stating no reason.

We also need to remember that in these opening stages, we are voting representatives for the town, since we in Day 1, cannot vote for revival, only Karma, which is only a guideline similar to FoSes, albeit one slightly more monitored by the mod.

All we can do is go on our gut instinct, really, since there will rarely be any definite proof, short of the scum claiming Cop.

Also:

Top of the Page: VaKC Mod?

[yellowbounder]

There are no definite ways of picking people, due to the age old barrier of not knowing alignment until death.

As such, as people have said before, it's difficult telling whether we've made the right decision, since the mafia could just not NK, (and taking into account the random variables) to confuse us.

Nor is there any way of removing someone from the live bench, unless the scum listen to the town's demands.

If we want to get this started, we could try bandwagoning someone onto the live bench, and try and work out how people reacted to that, and look for scum tells. The concept of distance to the scum is an important one, as you want to get a scumbuddy on the bench, but you don't want it obvious that you are unduely rallying for this person.

This is arguably the most important stage of the game, since we are voting our representatives, who we assume will listen to the town's demands, as shown by Karma.

How about

a vote count

just to see where we're at?

[yellowbounder]

Prodding the mod

[yellowbounder]

I did ask for a votecount, at some point in the hazy past.

I think. It was a long time ago.

[yellowbounder]

Maybe it's less self voting that the trouble is, and more of self hammering?

Think about it, you put someone at REVIVE-1, and then they hammer themselves. Is that considered a protown thing to do?

[yellowbounder]

Actually, that leads to an interesting point.

What if the town is 100% sure a live person is scum, this leads to some interesting WIFOM issues. Think about it, if they vote for someone, it's either them voting for their scumbuddy, or trying to vote for a protown to make the town not revive them.

Possibly we could make a policy of the live players using karma as well, so if a townie is killed, then at least we knew sort of what that protown player's views were.

Self hammering is a bit rude in some respects however. Almost as rude as hammering yourself in ordinary mafia, except more rewarding for yourself.

[yellowbounder]

The WIFOM potential in this game is immense, as, and this is a ludicrus situation, a scum could claim scum when he is alive, and we can't do anything about it.

And do we listen to his votes (which could be for a scumbuddy), or do we vote someone else (his vote could be for a protown person who he doesn't want revived).

Obviously this is a

very

hypothetical situation, but the elements of do you trust a scummy player's voting or not may come up, especially due to the permamency of reviving.

[yellowbounder]

I have a suggestion, and it could be completely wrong, but what if in these stages, we let the guy with the most karma pick someone the town should revive. Sort of like kingmaker, except you make kings with good karma, and less execution, and more living.

So, if Yosarian2 had good karma from a majority of the town (thus good karma ing someone more than once is bad) then he could suggest a guy to vote in. Not himself obviously.

Because if you give karma for pro town vibes and logic, then let the pro town/logical players pick who to bring up. And think about it, although it's a bit odd, they are more safe when they're not technically alive, because then they can still speak. Once you're alive, you are at risk from any possible mafia on the living team with you, and thus dead=no talking, which is worse than just being in Limbo.

Thoughts?

[yellowbounder]

I will be away from five minutes from now, for about four hours.

Sorry, I'd thought I'd join the trend.

[yellowbounder]

Mod, can we have modprods as appropriate?

[yellowbounder]

I think discussion has slowed, because nothing really has happened.

I suppose our only option at this point is random bandwagoning.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[yellowbounder]

Hey random banwagoning is accepted in an ordinary mafia game, where there's a (assuming 3 in 12) 66% chance of killing a townfolk.

The problem is, that since there's no risk of death, no one's really going to panic over bandwagons. Hell, we can hardly put someone at R-1, and ask for a claim, (if there were any powerroles, which there aren't in this game).

We don't know how many scums there are either for that matter. It could be anything from 2 to 4, at a pinch, depending on quite a lot of thought.

I may go all maths for a second.

If there's 9 townies, and 3 scum, and we revive someone at random three times, the most likely thing is TTS, at 48.9%. 3*p*p*q for the binomial inclined.

Technically, this isn't a bad first play, but it does have one non-mathamatical weakness.

As had been said before, if we choose people randomly, then there's nothing to talk about.

However,

and that's in bold for a reason, since, short of dicing our way through it, there's no purely random way of nominating, and so people will have a reason for going with one random (or not so random after all) bandwagon, other any other.

And townsfolk will go for the protown vibers, while scum will try and dissuade the town from being rezzed, and hopefully paint themselves as helpful ect. Like ordinary mafia, in many respects.

We need to get some momentum going in the game again.

---
footnote

Don't forget, that although only the people rezzed will be able to vote after this basically pregame stage (it's got a fractional day, for cripe's sake), the town will still have the awesome power of Karma, and it is expected that the townies amoung the living should listen to the karmas.

[yellowbounder]

Putting yourself up "since you know you are town" isn't a valid reason.

Everyone will say that they know they are town, but only about 66-75% of them will be telling the truth. It's easy to say that you know you are town, in fact, it's basically implied that people consider themselves town, unless they state something to the contrary (ie. I'm a Survivor, or I'm an SK).

I could say: I consider myself town, but there is no guarrantee that I am telling the truth. So, I could say I'm a good candidate for revival because I know I'm town, but everyone would be saying that. Which cancels the whole thing out.

[yellowbounder]

I didn't say we could revive anyone, I said we couldn't revive someone based on their statement that they are town. It's not a valid reason for revival.

Point. How can you lynch someone with no information? The lynching process generates the information you require, even if the lynch is of a townie. Obiously, the lack of aligment reveal is going to make it difficult, but the way people act, and do things will influence who is voted for, when the live bench comes into being.

[yellowbounder]

You can give karma to someone more than once, just not in the same post. Although, I think it would function better if you could only give it once, and the value was either 1, 0 or -1.

[yellowbounder]

[quote="Zindaras]pretty much a 180 degree turn from the first Reverse, in which he was very insignificant.[/quote]

Insignificant? You flatter me. I made like two posts, and then was replaced. Insignificant doesn't even cover it.

[yellowbounder]

If Karma is permament, beyond the Day/Night cycles, then it could have use today.

[yellowbounder]

You wanting him and you revived has me suspecting both of you.

I have already explained that wanting yourself revived is a pointless action, since everyone, whether protown or not probably wants themselves on the live bench.

(Although that gives pause for thought that a serious protown player may wish to stay in Limbo, since then there's no risk of death? I mean, scum would never want to stay in Limbo, since there is only gain for becoming alive again.)

Most of the post's so far have not had much content other than conversations about how to proceed in this game.

Yes, because there is very little to talk about otherwise. We are basically playing a game of no reveals, unless the scum want to confirm you as a protown player by killing you. This first stage of the game lays the way for the rest, since the three people we pick now are supposed to be the town's voices (like a distributed king, in Kingmaker). There isn't much to go on, in this game, apart from how people act and behave, and what strategies a scum might use, and what is considered scummy in this game.

This is hardly a common setup, (no offence intended to mod), and it's different enough to force us to work out how to play it.

[yellowbounder]

Half the total players alive, I'm assuming means that half the total of non dead townies.

So, if there are 6 townies, and three of them are alive, we win?

Although if you think about this game with an end game view, we've already lost if we bring back a single scum, since there's no stopping the kills, and no way of disposing of a scum.

[yellowbounder]

Although if you think about this game with an end game view, we've already lost if we bring back a single scum, since there's no stopping the kills, and no way of disposing of a scum.

No, if we bring back 1 scum we still can win, because each day the scum kills 1 person and each day we revive 1 person, so the # of people stay constent, and we can win with the "revive all townies" win condition if we revive the rest of the townies without the scum ever being 50% of the people living. And the longer we go before we revive a scum, the bigger the # of constant living people will be, so the more a margin of error we have; if 1 of the first 3 people we revive are scum, we have to revive perfectly for the rest of the game or we lose.

You misunderstand, I'm just thinking of the long term plan of this game, using common sense, and not mafia rules. In ordinary games, the scum win if the town do not have a majority, and the scum make a successful NK, which, if the town don't have a doctor, always hits.

Thus, the concept of endgame is that the scum control the majority, and automatically kill everyone else, while with town, the lack of scum stops the kills, making the town safe.

In this setup, technically if it lasted an infinite number of days, which is basically what endgaming is, if we bring back one scum, then we have lost in the long term.

Sure the rules say the town win, if X + Y therefore Z, but it's depressing that in long term planning, we've lost if we win.
But that's completely not relavent to the game.

FoS: yellowbounder

[yellowbounder]

The amusing thing is, asking for a deadline won't do much, since even if you are revived Yos, then that still doesn't generate discussion.

How about you, someone who is considered by some people to be a good candidate for revival, to pick someone else to revive, and explain why we should revive them? Then, the majority chosen pro towners, pick people.

[yellowbounder]

Looking at it, it would seem that LML, Yossy, Vel-Rahn Koon, logictitus, yellowbounder and I are the most named candidates for revival. We should discuss those candidates and narrow the field. I'd like you all to weigh in on them all.

Fine. I'm not going to talk about myself, since everyone wants themselves alive. No questions about that.

Brief impressions, will post more hopefully later today:

V-R K: Didn't post last page.

Yossy: The player with too many posts (as in intimidating ), and one that has a case partially based on that experience. Makes fairly logical, consise arugments, so I'm not against. But, could be scums. I mean, look at his post count! [/newbieparania]

LML: Bad karmaed me. Grrr.

Zindaras: Considers me a potential player for revival. I'm chuffed, honestly. Pro town. Ish. Maybe. Will check.

But, the problem with just voting Yossy on the bench, is that even if suddenly, he is alive, it's not going to spark discussion, is it? We don't get knowledge from the mod of his alignment, nor does it actually affect the next day 0.5 in anyway.

Just randomly running in and voting someone isn't the answer here, if you want your vote to spark discussion.
Of course the counter point is that the sooner we get to the interger day stages, where the revivies can vote only, is when it's going to get interesting. But there's no point in reviving someone just to spark discussion, because it won't.

And:

MOD: WILL YOU DO SOMETHING? PLEASE?

[yellowbounder]

I'm here. Nothing else to really add. I do think we need to start reving poeple.

Come on DeanWinchester, is that the best you can do?
What about the people you consider protown, or any vibes you're getting, or how you think we should do this revival process differents, instead of just stating the

point of the game.

Bad Karma: DeanWinchester

[yellowbounder]

Log: Out of all the suggested candidates, he's gone the farthest towards actually looking for people to revive. When read in isolation, has several good points about the Yos/LML links. As of now Log is my #1 candidate for revival.

How about a post by post analysis of logicticus, and I'll try and be as devil's advocate as possible.

First Post
"Self voting is pointless and bad, and isn't that what happened last time?"

Second Post

Anyway, why would you give me bad karma if other people have previously done the same?

"No one's random voted you know, apart from you." - (actually, in an amusing twist of irony, in my last post, I voted randomly for logicticus)

Third Post
"Yes, Yos, LML would be excellent to revive. But only if he's town. OMG, WHAT IF WE REVIVE HIM AND HE'S SCUM!

Post in the Middle Which I Didn't Notice
"LML, people think you're scummy because both you and Yos want each other alive, while wanting yourselves alive."

Fourth Post
Self hammaing is bad, unless there's been some discussion, and you've stayed at R-1. We should discuss who not to revive right now, although we need to revive someone, at some point.

Fifth Post
Dealing with suspected/practically known scums on the live bench is something we will do when we get to it.

Sixth Post

So I guess what I have come up with from all of this is that I dont like the foundation that LML is linking himself to Yos2 and I like Zindys thinking.

Seven/Eighth Posts
"Prod and I'm sorry for not posting."

Okay, logicicus has made one fairly large post about the possible links between Yos, and LML, and how LML seems to be a bit eager to revive Yos, and visa versa.

Let's use the logic that LML and Yos are linking each other with in a different way.

When reading logicticus' posts, I see that he's made, and shares the same feelings for, self voting. Even if logicticus has the same logic as myself, does that mean that I'm going to be waving the

Revive Logicticus Today!

flag all the way down the bandwagon?

Sure he uses the same logic, but that doesn't mean that he shares the same views.

In response to him being your #1 candidate, he's not posting that much at the moment, kind of quietly sitting on the sidelines. *goes to check the date*. Okay, he hasn't posted in 8 days. That's a long time, especially since his last post was promising content.

Sure, he seems townish, but I'm not really for reviving people who don't post very much.

Of course, the mod prodding people would be fantastic!

[yellowbounder]

It's just one word, Yellowbounder! No capitals in it!

DeanWinchester, what about your opinions of other people that have been mentioned? Sure, your opinions (that you've never given any reason for apart from "gut") haven't changed, but that's just three people. There are quite a few other people currently under discussion.

I would bad karma you, but that would be impolite.

[yellowbounder]

I think yellowbounder shouting for the mod to prod twice in five posts in about 24 hours is extreme no matter what. Not to mention yellowbounders tone.

I know the guy in MeatWorld. I'm allowed to have a tone.

[yellowbounder]

Why is badgering the mod a bad thing? We sorely need him around if this game is going to survive.

QFT

So...

MOD!?

[yellowbounder]

There is enough interest to continue this game here.

Vote: Zindaras

That is the revival I want for today.

We know. Everyone thinks exactly the same. Whether scum or town, everyone wants themselves alive. I've stated this multiple times, and thus people voting themselves does nothing.

Bad Karma: Zindara

We're not going to move on if we don't try and discuss. We need to say stuff.

Okay, here's my preposal.

Let's pick three people, here and now, and revive those three in this pregame (yes, this is technically pregame), now. And not just revive one, and then revive another, let's pick three people in Day 0.25, and all agree that these are the people who we want alive, or that can represent the town as a whole.

Or we can just bicker and say nothing.

Thoughts?

[yellowbounder]

3 days later... and Reverse Mafia is lower than the finished games. (Damn you MeMe!)

[yellowbounder]

The mod is away, see V/LA, and we don't have a backup mod, but the mod is supposed to be back by Saturday.

And yes, reviving someone won't nesserily increase activity, yes, it's better than nothing.

I would switch my vote to Yossy, but it's already there.

[yellowbounder]

Let's hammer Yos!

(I can't belive I just said that.)