Mini 444 - Reverse Mafia Vanilla (Stopped)

[Zindaras]

Actually, Patrick, the game balance is probably better for us this way than it was last time. We outright lost the game Day 2 due to an Insane Cop.

[Patrick]

This is true. I still can't imagine 4 scum though. It's dawning on me how hard this might be to win even if it's just 2-3 scum.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, Patrick, the game balance is probably better for us this way than it was last time. We outright lost the game Day 2 due to an Insane Cop.

That's true, but that was still due in large part to bad luck; if you had investigated a pro-town person or two, we might have figured out you were insane. Still, other things we lost really hurt; for example, it's really a shame we don't have a vig this game, that'll make it a lot harder for us.

And yeah, this game is not going to be easy. If there's only 2 scum, we might be all right; if we can guess right and correctly get scum tells off of 1 of them, and avoid revivng him all game, we should win. If there's 3, it'll be harder.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Sorry about being inactive recently, I will catch up today.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

First I will address Yos's points against me.

[quote="Yosarian2"]

bad karma: Machiavellian Mafia

I know he was away for a while, but even before that, he didn't really post much content, and more importantly, the one post of his that DID have content looks scum-like to me.

[quote="Machiavellian-Mafia"][quote="LoudmouthLee"][quote="Machiavellian-Mafia"]Looks to me like we can still play mafia like normal, except instead of voting for the suspicious people to lynch, we avoid voting for them to prevent their revival and vote for more protown people, essentially just like the "reverse" theme of the game.

And I like this good/bad karma idea from our mod.

Good Karma

: KaleiÐoscøpe for having unusual characters in his name.[/quote]

Random Good Karma? That makes no sense.

Bad Karma: MM

[/quote]
I liked the novel good/bad karma idea from our mod, so at the beginning of the game where it's ok to be random and silly, I chose to random good karma Kscope. I think you may be taking this a little too seriously.

I also think Relph has likely made a Freudian Slip with his "4 people with information" post, so I'd say he's likely scum and I wouldn't consider reviving him.

Bad karma: Relph

So far IMO Yos, LML, Logi, and DW have made the best initial protown impressions, but none of them have sufficient protownness to have my vote right now.[/quote]

In this, MM's only content containing post all game, he just kind followed my and others comments about Ralph's "4 scum" comment being off, and then said that he finds several people to look pro-town. The post kind of feels like he's just going with the flow, which is a scumtell especally when he's otherwise lurked. Worse then that, he just flatly states that he thinks Ralph's "4 people withj information" is a freudian slip while ignoring the fact that it's quite unlikely there actually are 4 scum, which makes a "freudian slip" explination seem a bit odd.

On another note, MM said a few days ago that he was back and would re-read "today or tommorow", and then he did not did so. I would like to hear more from him soon.[/quote]
I was posting everything that caught my attention at the time, and one of them was relph's comment. Upon further review, yes I would agree that 4 scum is not very likely in terms of balance wise, but I still think relph made a slip, but more towards something that could have misled us. Plus, relph has basically disappeared after the round of bad karmas given to him. I would not consider reviving relph at all any time soon.

And I apologize for not doing what I promised a week ago, there was some unexpected RL mess that I had to clear up.

[Yosarian2]

I was posting everything that caught my attention at the time, and one of them was relph's comment. Upon further review, yes I would agree that 4 scum is not very likely in terms of balance wise, but I still think relph made a slip, but more towards something that could have misled us.

Which one do you think? Do you think he made a freduain slip, or do you think he was intentionally trying to mislead us? Because I don't see how it could be both.

Plus, relph has basically disappeared after the round of bad karmas given to him. I would not consider reviving relph at all any time soon.

That much is true, people who don't post are not candidates for revial, and we will quite likely eventually need to revive ALL pro-town people in order to win, so lurking is very bad. I especally don't like that Ralph last posted on May 22 to say that he would "post some more today or tommorow morning".

One other question though, MM; you mentioned 4 people in your earlier post who looked pro-town to you. Could you explain why you thought that?

[DeanWinchester]

@zindaras: dont you think it is kind of harsh to give me bad Karma just because you don't think I've given much content. Most of the post's so far have not had much content other than conversations about how to proceed in this game.

I don't really have any ideal how to proceed in this game which is why I havnet posted that much.

[Zindaras]

@zindaras: dont you think it is kind of harsh to give me bad Karma just because you don't think I've given much content. Most of the post's so far have not had much content other than conversations about how to proceed in this game.

I don't really have any ideal how to proceed in this game which is why I havnet posted that much.

You've posted quite a bit, but never much content. There's the whole 4 scum thing, saying relph=scum, very quick to vote Yossy but apparently you don't like LML. I think Velly's town, so your statement that he isn't doesn't score points with me either.

Also, karma isn't really that big a deal, you know. It doesn't really say anything, especially for you at the moment, since it doesn't look like you're going to be revived anytime soon.


Looking at it, it would seem that LML, Yossy, Vel-Rahn Koon, logictitus, yellowbounder and I are the most named candidates for revival. We should discuss those candidates and narrow the field. I'd like you all to weigh in on them all.

[DeanWinchester]

It official I don't like the ideal of reviving you Zindaras.

Your post seem to be trying to push you and yellow bounder abit too much.
I don't like the ideal of veriving yellowbounder either. Nothing specific he just doesn't sit right with me. You wanting him and you revived has me suspecting both of you.

[Zindaras]

It official I don't like the ideal of reviving you Zindaras.

Your post seem to be trying to push you and yellow bounder abit too much.
I don't like the ideal of veriving yellowbounder either. Nothing specific he just doesn't sit right with me. You wanting him and you revived has me suspecting both of you.

I have said exactly one time that I think Yellowbounder is a good revival candidate. I have been just as strong on him as I have been on Velly, yet you do not go as far to suggest that I am pushing him, while I have done exactly the same with him. Also, where exactly am I pushing him? I give him good karma and say he's a good revival candidate (something many others have done). If I'd be pushing him, I'd go around asking people "Why aren't you voting yellowbounder?".

Also, I find it somewhat odd/amusing that you think so differently about Yos/LML, who according to you have also been pushing each other.

[DeanWinchester]

My feelings toward Yos and LML is one of caution.

My feeling toward you is one of scum.

Bad Karma Zindaras

[Zindaras]

My feelings toward Yos and LML is one of caution.

My feeling toward you is one of scum.

Bad Karma Zindaras

Why are you singling me out? You're saying one of us scum, but you only give bad karma to me.

[yellowbounder]

You wanting him and you revived has me suspecting both of you.

I have already explained that wanting yourself revived is a pointless action, since everyone, whether protown or not probably wants themselves on the live bench.

(Although that gives pause for thought that a serious protown player may wish to stay in Limbo, since then there's no risk of death? I mean, scum would never want to stay in Limbo, since there is only gain for becoming alive again.)

Most of the post's so far have not had much content other than conversations about how to proceed in this game.

Yes, because there is very little to talk about otherwise. We are basically playing a game of no reveals, unless the scum want to confirm you as a protown player by killing you. This first stage of the game lays the way for the rest, since the three people we pick now are supposed to be the town's voices (like a distributed king, in Kingmaker). There isn't much to go on, in this game, apart from how people act and behave, and what strategies a scum might use, and what is considered scummy in this game.

This is hardly a common setup, (no offence intended to mod), and it's different enough to force us to work out how to play it.

[Yosarian2]

(Although that gives pause for thought that a serious protown player may wish to stay in Limbo, since then there's no risk of death? I mean, scum would never want to stay in Limbo, since there is only gain for becoming alive again.)

Well, the thing is, unless we play this game absolutly flawlessly and never revive scum, we're probably going to have to revive ALL pro-town players in order to win, so every pro-town player needs to try to get revived. I think part of the problem with the last game is that most pro-town people didn't try hard enough to get revived, and the scum did.

[Patrick]

Mod

can we get a prod on Lee please? He's certainly been around. I've asked him a question.

Dean's accusations of Zindaras seem odd. It seems to start from OMGUS, then he moves on to deciding Zindaras is scum by association with yellowbounder, who he finds scummy but can't explain why.

Well, the thing is, unless we play this game absolutly flawlessly and never revive scum, we're probably going to have to revive ALL pro-town players in order to win, so every pro-town player needs to try to get revived. I think part of the problem with the last game is that most pro-town people didn't try hard enough to get revived, and the scum did.

This is what's bothering me. We can win by reviving a bunch of protown players at the start I suppose, if I'm understanding it right, but failing that it seems like winning will be very difficult.

I will comment briefly on each of the players Zindaras mentioned there.

LML - I don't see him as a prime candidate for revival at this stage. He has at least been active but I don't find him especially protown, as I've mostly described in my first real post here. I realise he's probably the best player here, but that just cuts both ways; if he's town he can be an asset if revived early, if he's scum he could be very manipulative and dangerous.

Yosarian2 - If we were to revive one of Lee/Yos I would go for him, because of the possibility of Lee being scum trying to buddy up to Yosarian being greater than the possibility of LeeTown and Yos being scum. He's been active enough, and nothing he says seems scummy, but I can't say I have too much read on his alignment yet.

Vel Rahn Koon - Needs to post more, now that I look at his posts in isolation. What he posts is worth reading though. I like his post 3 and 4 and agree with most of his stances, though not his stance on post 112. VRK - mind just explaining again why Yosarian was indirectly defending Lee here? Also, everyone knows my thoughts about 4 scum possibility. I think VRK might be another one of these guys that always will strike me as protown ><. Hmmm. But his posts still give me quite a good vibe, so I could go along with a revival of him.

Logicticus - Hmm, again maybe needs a bit more posting. I can see now this game is lurktastic all round. I don't really disagree with anything he's said, and he seems on a similar wavelength to me. One thing occuring to me though is that if both Yosarian and Lee are protown, then scum would likely want to make as much as possible out of this supposed link between them, and make people more afraid to ressurect one or possibly both of them. Unfotunately there's no way of knowing either of their alignments anytime soon, so for now I'm going to assume that the people thinking similar to me here and showing appropriate caution are alright. [/Joys of limited information].

Yellowbounder - Has been quite active. I don't really agree with his bad karma of Dean early, because I can see where Dean is coming from there. Not necessarily agree with it but I can see it as a legit thought process in his head. I noticed a rather high percentage of his posts is on theory, which can sometimes be a good way for scum to appear more active without necessarily antagonising someone. I'd like to hear a few more thoughts on other players in this game. I put him at neutral. I don't see a special reason for reviving him.

Zindaras - Mostly said stuff about him already. Similar to VRK and logicticus really - I just agree with alot of his stances, though not his stance on yellowbounder.

-----

I may be being overely cautious about Yosarian just because I've played with/seen him as scum and it seems very hard to discern his alignment. In fact with little content in the whole game I'm relying on gut for alot of this. If we had more major issues cropping up we could maybe get some heated debate going and learn more about people's alignments.

This may seem like an odd question, but -- what do people think of lurkers in this game? Is it scummy?

[Yosarian2]

This may seem like an odd question, but -- what do people think of lurkers in this game? Is it scummy?

No, that's not an odd question; I can understand what you mean, which is that lurking and staying under the radar probably isn't a good stratagy for anyone this game, scum or town, so it's harder to say "lurking is scummy" then it would be in a normal game.

However, the only thing we're going to have to go on is people's conversations, so we NEED people to post more if we're going to have a chance. And while lurking may or may not be scummy, I'm certanly not going to vote for someone to be revived if I don't have some good way to guess their alignment based on their posting, so I don't see myself voting to revive a lurker any time soon; if nothing else, if one out of the 3 day 1 voters is a lurker, the game is likely to really suffer.

Honestly, I can understand why people aren't saying that much, it's hard to get a conversation going this game. But we all really need to try to post more, or this game is going to be deathly boring and is probably not going to go well for the town; if people don't post, then with no night info and next to no roles revealed we've got no chance of figuring out who the scum are.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and to comment on another point in Patrick's post:

Well, the thing is, unless we play this game absolutly flawlessly and never revive scum, we're probably going to have to revive ALL pro-town players in order to win, so every pro-town player needs to try to get revived. I think part of the problem with the last game is that most pro-town people didn't try hard enough to get revived, and the scum did.

This is what's bothering me. We can win by reviving a bunch of protown players at the start I suppose, if I'm understanding it right, but failing that it seems like winning will be very difficult.

The way I see it, we've basically got 2 possible ways to win.

Town: Either: all of the pro-town players revived (it is not required that all pro-town players survive after being revived though), half of the total pro-town players alive...

So, let's say that there are either 9 or 10 good guys. That means that if we revive correctly 5 times in a row, we win.

However, if we mess up and revive a scum, and townies start dying, we're not going to ever get to 5 people alive, because each time we revive 1 good guy another one will die. In that case, we're going to have to revive all of the good guys without ever having half the people alive be scum. Which means that if it goes that way, we'll basically have to figure out who the other 1-2 scum are and revive everyone else.

Either way, yeah, this is going to be difficult.

[logicticus]

i apologize for my lack of posting

i left town on the 9th and thought i would have more access than i have had.

hopefully tomorrow or the day after i can make something meaningful

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I find this game truelly hard to play, really. I still stand by my previous stances in my latest post though.

Also, a VC would be nice.

[Yosarian2]

No posts for 4 days? Where is everyone?

[Patrick]

Bleh. Nobody else got anything to say about what I posted at all? I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of mod presence, as I did ask for a prod on Lee and K-Scope did ask for a votecount.

[yellowbounder]

Half the total players alive, I'm assuming means that half the total of non dead townies.

So, if there are 6 townies, and three of them are alive, we win?

Although if you think about this game with an end game view, we've already lost if we bring back a single scum, since there's no stopping the kills, and no way of disposing of a scum.

[Yosarian2]

Half the total players alive, I'm assuming means that half the total of non dead townies.

So, if there are 6 townies, and three of them are alive, we win?

No, I think that means half the total nuimber of townies in the game are currenlty alive and revived. So, if there's 3 scum and 9 town, then if there's 5 townies alive we win.

[/quote]
Although if you think about this game with an end game view, we've already lost if we bring back a single scum, since there's no stopping the kills, and no way of disposing of a scum.[/quote]

No, if we bring back 1 scum we still can win, because each day the scum kills 1 person and each day we revive 1 person, so the # of people stay constent, and we can win with the "revive all townies" win condition if we revive the rest of the townies without the scum ever being 50% of the people living. And the longer we go before we revive a scum, the bigger the # of constant living people will be, so the more a margin of error we have; if 1 of the first 3 people we revive are scum, we have to revive perfectly for the rest of the game or we lose.

[yellowbounder]

Although if you think about this game with an end game view, we've already lost if we bring back a single scum, since there's no stopping the kills, and no way of disposing of a scum.

No, if we bring back 1 scum we still can win, because each day the scum kills 1 person and each day we revive 1 person, so the # of people stay constent, and we can win with the "revive all townies" win condition if we revive the rest of the townies without the scum ever being 50% of the people living. And the longer we go before we revive a scum, the bigger the # of constant living people will be, so the more a margin of error we have; if 1 of the first 3 people we revive are scum, we have to revive perfectly for the rest of the game or we lose.

You misunderstand, I'm just thinking of the long term plan of this game, using common sense, and not mafia rules. In ordinary games, the scum win if the town do not have a majority, and the scum make a successful NK, which, if the town don't have a doctor, always hits.

Thus, the concept of endgame is that the scum control the majority, and automatically kill everyone else, while with town, the lack of scum stops the kills, making the town safe.

In this setup, technically if it lasted an infinite number of days, which is basically what endgaming is, if we bring back one scum, then we have lost in the long term.

Sure the rules say the town win, if X + Y therefore Z, but it's depressing that in long term planning, we've lost if we win.
But that's completely not relavent to the game.

FoS: yellowbounder

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, day 1's lasted for more then a month now, and we've only got 7 pages of posts. That seems like it's not a good sign to me.

Can we just revive me and move on now?