Mafia v. Wolves Redux: Finally Over!

[Kison]

In other words, Raffles needs to decide what that method is.

That's uncalled for. Go eat shit. No, really.


If people find this offensive, please ask for me to be replaced.

You're taking this game a bit too personally.

[Shanba]

regardless, it sounds like a genuine reaction. I'd be happy with a mneme, Akbar or DGB lynch at this point (though happiest with a mneme lynch)

[mneme]

I agree. Raffles, lighten up. Or at least try to be a bit more sportsmanlike.

I'm not totally convinced by the reaction, but agree that there are better lynches at this point than Raffles (though I can't agree with myself, of course). Though it may be that the absense of raffles style of discussion would help the town.

I'm not unhappy with the deadline removal -- but it would be nice if the votility of this game were a -wee- bit higher.

Raffles, I find somewhat annoying your insistence on a sekrit "if the scum do this given a deadline, they'll win" strategy. 1. you already articulated this idea in 887, so it's not really that secret. 2. Given an active, non-majority scum town, it's just not a good idea -- letting the town control the lynch just makes it easier to lynch scum. 3. While yes, allowing for deadline lynches and in general, pushing the timing of games gives scum an advantage, it also makes the game much more fun for both town and scum, allowing it to move, and allowing the conclusions people come to during the day to be tested. I don't really want to go another (yeah, I know, straw man, but still) 30 days before we read the end of day 2.

[mneme]

SV, after you read, please share your impressions of Flay with the rest of us.

What's your purpose in leading a player this way?

[Kison]

I'll have to agree that I don't like the argument that scum will win given a deadline. At first, I thought he meant they'd win today, but Raffles' later posts seem to indicate he indeed meant the entire game. I'd like to hear more on that.

[Raffles]

I can take frustration. I won't take full out insults. If you got problem with that, tough. I don't play this game to be insulted in the first place.

A game doesn't require a deadline to move in any way. If you have deadline placed on yourselves, consider it you've done something wrong.

[Kison]

I can take frustration. I won't take full out insults. If you got problem with that, tough. I don't play this game to be insulted in the first place.

It doesn't appear to me that PBuG insulted you, but you're interpreting it in that way. I can interpret his response in multiple ways, and chances are you'll wind up regretting your reaction to something that very likely wasn't a big deal in the first place.

[Raffles]

He's got no basis to accuse me of such thing. It's totally an off-hand comment. It doesn't help anyone in anyway. Recipent took it as an insult, so even if it wasn't intended to be, it still is. Frankly any dipshit with dozen brain cells can figure it out, and I'm not having my intelligence insulted by some asshole who I don't even know that "I'm going to figure one out later". I have all the reason not to take that kind of shit from him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

im not trying to convince anyone of anything.
I dont really think Raffles is scum, and as such, i can see that scum could well be pushing his wagon. to this end, there is little reason why scum would decline a deadline retraction, when they know a Raffles lynch is likely anyway.
my vote is on PBug because i think he could be scum. genius eh?

So you think PBug is scum and Raffles is not, but you don't want to convince people to vote someone other than Raffles, since you claim he's the only true contender for today's lynch? Am I getting this right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

He's got no basis to accuse me of such thing. It's totally an off-hand comment. It doesn't help anyone in anyway. Recipent took it as an insult, so even if it wasn't intended to be, it still is. Frankly any dipshit with dozen brain cells can figure it out, and I'm not having my intelligence insulted by some asshole who I don't even know that "I'm going to figure one out later". I have all the reason not to take that kind of shit from him.

Actually, his comment was a legitimate in-game response, even if I don't agree with it. It's pretty clear that he's insinuating that you might've been talking out of your ass and didn't actually have a method so you were stalling in order to not have to explain it after you claimed it exists. I don't agree with this, but I can see where they're coming from, and it's no more of an insult than saying someone is scum for using WIFOM or that they're scum for repeatedly pushing to have a cop lynched, etc.

[Battle Mage]

no you arent. at no point did i say that i WANTED a Raffles lynch, but i do think that there is unlikely to be an alternative if it is scum pushing his wagon.

im not trying to convince anyone of anything.
I dont really think Raffles is scum, and as such, i can see that scum could well be pushing his wagon. to this end, there is little reason why scum would decline a deadline retraction, when they know a Raffles lynch is likely anyway.
my vote is on PBug because i think he could be scum. genius eh?

So you think PBug is scum and Raffles is not, but you don't want to convince people to vote someone other than Raffles, since you claim he's the only true contender for today's lynch? Am I getting this right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't get your panties in a ruffle. I never said you wanted a raffles lynch, just that you think he's the one that's going to be lynched. Other than that, am I understanding you correctly?

[Shanba]

As getting the lynch I want on mneme seems unlikely at thi point, how much support is there for a lynch on DGB?

unvote Vote: DGB

[TBuG]

There would be if Raffles wasn't around.

[mneme]

PBuG: does that mean you think Raffles is more likely to be scum than DGB, or do you mean that while they are of equal or unbalanced-the-other-way scuminess, that you think DGB is unlikely to get lynched today?

DGB: You've disclaimed certain knowledge of Raffles' alignment. That's useful info, but begs the question of whether your support of him is based on day results (ie, a hunch or induction) or night results (that decreased the probability for you that he's scum without providing certainty -- I can think of several things that would do this). I don't want details in the latter case, but I'd like to know which is the case.

[Akbar]

DGB: You've disclaimed certain knowledge of Raffles' alignment. That's useful info, but begs the question of whether your support of him is based on day results (ie, a hunch or induction) or night results (that decreased the probability for you that he's scum without providing certainty -- I can think of several things that would do this). I don't want details in the latter case, but I'd like to know which is the case.

You don't want details if its the latter? You just asked DGB is she was a power role. WTF difference do the details make if thats the case? Why on earth would you ask someone to expose that knowledge?

[mneme]

Ackbar: different power roles involve -huge- differences in correct scum play. DGB's play indicates one of: player going (IMO) out on a too-high limb, scum, or an appopriate power role. Without a disclaimer, scum are likely to assume the latter -- but any -public- claim of the latter requires substiantiation on a later day.

By contrast, correct town play is very different for "a power role" and "anything else", given the text.

Now, obviously, DGB's under no obligation to answer me (hell, her bandwagon's what? 2 right now?) But I'm putting the question there -- because my current assumption and behavior is based on "not a power role", (partially because I don't entirely buy DGB's behavior based on my first guess of what her role would be, which I'm not about to say for obvious reasons), yet I'm certainly willing to be redirected from that for today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Over time, I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the Raffles vote, and his responses have seemed incredibly genuine, so I am afraid I must

unvote

and accept the consquences. You have my apologies, Raffles.

On the other hand, I have been increasingly MORE comfortable with the DGB vote, and her more recent actions have been scummy independant of Raffles' alignment, so I have no problem with a

vote: DGB

[Raffles]

Ackbar: different power roles involve -huge- differences in correct scum play. DGB's play indicates one of: player going (IMO) out on a too-high limb, scum, or an appopriate power role. Without a disclaimer, scum are likely to assume the latter -- but any -public- claim of the latter requires substiantiation on a later day.

Either that, or it will result in her getting killed tonight, regardless of her alignment. I offer you my congratulations. If she's a scum, I guess that's good for town, and she will get killed by other scum group. Problem with this being I can't see why a scum would try to keep me alive. So alternatively, she's a power-role that investigated me last night. Now wouldn't scums love to kill her now?

Or she could genuinely be a townie with a hunch.

By contrast, correct town play is very different for "a power role" and "anything else", given the text.

What does that mean?

[mneme]

Raffles: Given DGB's linking with you, either she's scum or she's a power role or she's playing like either. Given the first two, she's a good target for scum (opposing scum like targetting other scum, for the most part).

If we do, in fact, have a cult, open townies aren't safe either -- they're primary cult bait.

This was why my question avoided asking for either a "do you have X power role" or "do you have a power role at all", instead asking "was X decision made for reason of night actions or just public stuff?". By asking in this fashion, I'm attempting to avoid getitng answers to the questions I don't want answers to, ie. "what is your exact role" and "are you a townie?" while potentially getting a useful answer, and certainly more info re alignment.

And Raffles, she's not a power role that investigated you last night. She already disclaimed knowing your alignment -- so unless she's fudging (ie, "I might be naive or random"), or lying (unlikely, and we know what that leads to), that's ruled out. Please, read more carefully.

I'll be happy to answer your question if and when we get a DGB answer.

[DrippingGoofball]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I can see the writing on the wall, I am going to be the Raffles lynch alternative for today.

For those not familiar with my playstyle (i.e. I can understand why mneme would vote for me, but MoS has no excuse) when I see a stalling game, and I have the time and energy, I like to shake things up, apply pressure, and spread out my attention quite broadly.

The townies are puzzled by it, and it makes the scum VERY nervous. They can't just coast townie wagons when I am around, questioning everything and everyone almost randomly. I rarely make it past Day 1, which is the REAL reason I was quiet yesterday, haha. I am as likely to be lynched as I am to be nightkilled.

No, I don't have a power role. I have a role, but it's really minor, and it's highly unlikely to make a difference in the game. It's a passive, rather than active, ability. The only reason you might have to keep me around, is that the game will not get boring, and the scum won't have it easy.

I have no information whatsoever about Raffles, as I said earlier. But my gut feelings are usually pretty good.

I asked SV about Flay, and mememe wonders why. Here is your answer. SV is lurking. She's lying low in this game, and continuing to lie low even after stating that she'll be more active. So, I find that a bit scummy, and I don't want her getting away with it. And Flay has set up the Raffles wagon, and disappeared as Raffles was going down in flames. It's as if he carefully set up the bomb, and now he's standing back in order not to blow up with it. Putting these two together, I asked SV what she thought about Flay. I thought her answer would be informative. I still want to know what SV is thinking about Flay. Neither SV or Flay should behave this way unchallenged.

I am unvoting mememe and suspending judgment for now, keeping a close watch on this player.

But the scum isn't getting a break from relentless Goofball pressure, here I come:

vote: Flay

Take that Flay! Prend guarde, à l'assaut!

[DrippingGoofball]

This was why my question avoided asking for either a "do you have X power role" or "do you have a power role at all", instead asking "was X decision made for reason of night actions or just public stuff?". By asking in this fashion, I'm attempting to avoid getitng answers to the questions I don't want answers to, ie. "what is your exact role" and "are you a townie?" while potentially getting a useful answer, and certainly more info re alignment.

You ought to be in politics. There is no bloody way to phrase your question without extracting a statement from me about my role and my alignment, going 100% against what you claim you wish to avoid.

You are a slick one. How can I avoid answering your question without moving closer to being cult bait, or affirming my townieness? I'd have to answer something like "I might be scum or town and I may or may not have a role that lead me to believe Raffles may or may not be scum, but I am not sure. I did not even read my PM."

[DrippingGoofball]

Re: SV

For instance.

SV was on site today and posted in another game, an hour ago: "Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: 1694"

Methinks she's purposely ignoring this game, though much is happening. Tactical lurking perhaps?

[DrippingGoofball]

And Flay...

Flay has been posting abundantly throughout the site, including today.

Last post in this game: May 3.

Tactical lurking too?

Maybe he's just waiting for tonight, so that he can nightkill me, haha.

[Shanba]

urgh... the vibes I'm getting from DGB now are all over the place. I really can't tell if she's town or scum.

unvote vote: mneme

. I think I need more time to make up my mind about her.