Mini 443 - Tapioca Mafia - Game over!!

[beanbagboy]

You can call her Bob. Or, as I call her, Bobness.

vote: Pick Em Genius

for voting Bob for the é in her name!

[beanbagboy]

*BAD PUN ALERT!* sirens! lol

[beanbagboy]

I want to feel involved, but there's not much to say... um...




42!

[beanbagboy]

*gasp* Kabenon is exhibiting SCUMTELLS! Oh noes!

[beanbagboy]

Whee! In other games, Bob has said coppelia minus the accent is fine with her, but I just like saying "Bobness".

Oh, yeah, that reminds me.

Unvote, Vote: Kabenon007

Unvote: Kabenon007, Revote: PickEmGenius

cause I said so.

[beanbagboy]

LOL!

Yeah, I figured someone would say that.

In other news, I lost my first game here! Yay! Well, I feel I did a great performance in a losing job.

[beanbagboy]

Um... what?

MEANIE!

Unvote, Vote: PickEmGenius

for telling me I deserved to lose. Don't remind me I'm already voting for him.

[beanbagboy]

In other news, I lost my first game here! Yay! Mr. Green Well, I feel I did a great performance in a losing job.

1. Not to mix my chocolate in your peanute butter,
2. but that means I won my first game here. I'm not at all sure I deserved it.
3. I learned a lot of things, though.
4. And Beebeebee's performance was fantastic.
5. I totally don't trust you for a second in this one, by the way! IMGMEOY...

Numbers mine.

1. mmm... peanut butter.... *homer simpson drooling noise*
2. No, you didn't. J/k. You were great, Coppelia, or should I say Cop.
3. Same here, most of them were post game though.
4. *blush* Thank you, thank you, MUAHHH! *blows kiss*
5. You misspelled IGMEOY which is a definete scumtell! GASP!

Unvote: PickEmGenius, Vote: Coppelia (Bobness)

[beanbagboy]

No. It started in our first game, Newbie 356. Most people just call her bob, though. Bob"ness" is my thing.

[beanbagboy]

lol. Gah, nothing to say... eh...

Take off of iPod: Garth Brooks (Ewwwww!!!)

[beanbagboy]

I don't like the fact that Shanba just jumped on a wagon for the sake of wagon jumping. For lack of a better vote,

unvote: Coppelia/Bobness (mod, can I refer to her as Bobness for voting purposes?) vote: Shanba

[beanbagboy]

Um... that wasn't much of a defense, I was expecting more of an argument.

[beanbagboy]

Um... yeah, this is confusing, I have to look over again. Eh... shanba seems itchy for a wagon, I don't know, but that seems weird... then again, it seems routine to wagon early in a game... eh... I don't know!

I'll leave me vote for now! AYE! Shanba, why did you do the stuff that people are asking you why you did?

[beanbagboy]

Sorry, I'm here. I don't... really get the issue, I didn't see anything. Let me reread... my brain is really and truly fried right now between finals and other end of year crap... our SS teacher is assigning a four page paper with 18 days left of school on a topic we have yet to start. (It's due with 3 days left of school. >.>)

Analysis coming SOON! YAY!

[beanbagboy]

You know, I looked over the game, here's my Q&D (quick and dirty):

Random votes, Shad wagon, Ripley wagon. Khelvaster makes a wagon comment. A buncha people think that's suspicious. He was making one vote, and then he says he's not looking for a wagon, but then he says wagons are the only way to start the game.

Eh... well, it doesn't exactly scream Townie, but he is new and that doesn't really seem very suspicious at all to me. In fact, I think the fact that some people are jumping all over him is very supicuous. (mispelling intentional.)

Bob seems to jump on the Khelvaster is scum wagon without really leading the argument, so if this wagon is wrong, she can withdraw later, but if it's a useful wagon, she can go "Oh, see? I was right/innocent" which is a common scum tactic.

I honestly think you guys are overreacting. I'm not defending Khel (well, I'm not trying to) so much as confused over the attack.

Unvote, Vote: Bob

because she was one (admittedly of many) who jumped on the wagon with no new major points to bring up. I'd like to hear what she thinks about this.

[beanbagboy]

Oh, OK, it's more of a pressure vote than anything else. I see, never mind, then.

@Bob: Three votes is a bandwagon (albeit a small one), IMO. If you look on the MafiaWiki you'll see that the third person on a bandwagon is very likely to be scum. Granted, these numbers were found a long time ago, but they still have truth to them. I still think you're overreacting a bit to something that's kind of small, and I think you're overreacting to me, too. I haven't seen you play as scum before so I can't tell by meta game (although you have a lot to go off of, lol) but this doesn't seem like what you normally do.

Khelvaster hasn't been here in a while... >.>

[beanbagboy]

I think Khel is being sincere, and I didn't really see much of a case against him.

Bob still hasn't really answered my last question, I'll leave my vote on her.

[beanbagboy]

Khel is being weird now. I'm looking at the quotes... they could be a newbie mistake, but I think it more likely that he's scum trying to cover up. The more he talks, the more he stumbles: all that WIFOM stuff. I will

unvote: Bob

for now, and rethink this. Khel... I don't know, the more he talks the more it seems like he slips up.

I want to hear more from him.

[beanbagboy]

:goodposting: I would post more but I have to take a shower now.

[beanbagboy]

Augh. Talk about "life happens." I can't even read all this now, but I'll try to get on tonight if I can. (Papers, tests, etc.)

Sorry again.

[beanbagboy]

You know, the very first mafia game I ever saw (I was a bystander then, not a participant) brought up the three vote=SCUMTELL! argument. It's actually how I found my way here....here's what I think about it. If we're in a game where 4 votes=lynch, a third vote is probably pretty attractive to scum, because it tips someone over into real danger of a lynch, but you don't have to be the one to hammer. I still don't know that I'd believe it was a scumtell even then, for two reasons: a) someone's got to cast a third vote- is it really always mafia? I don't think so and b) uh, scum read the wiki, too.

In this game, three votes is not even half of what it takes to lynch. I don't feel it places any real danger on a player, but hopefully it does place pressure. I'm still comfortable with my vote.

Okay, let's establish something here: I don't think it's the third vote in particular that makes you scummy, sorry if it sounded like that. What I was trying to state was that you seemed to be jumping on a popular attack with no real reason. Third vote is sort of a... erm, metaphor, if you will, for an attack on a person for no particular reason when they aren't close to being lynched but they're under fire from others.

It's not the danger, it's the fact that you're going with the popular opinion without any particular reason.

@Khelvaster-I think you're being far too defensive, with that last post being totally unnecessary. Sometimes, scum lurk, especially newbie scum. It's not a crime to wonder where someone is when they haven't posted in a day, to make sure they're not lurking.

That is an illogical statement. Since you voted for me and provided some justification, no matter how bad that justification was, it's reasonable for us to believe you were intending to implicate me as being mafia.

pickem's already addressed this, but I wanted to let you know that your interpretation of his actions is not unanimous across the board. With have very little, if any, evidence to go on in D1. By your logic, we would never vote at all. You find things that ping your scumdar, then you start asking questions. Sometimes you base your vote on those reactions, and sometimes you vote to get a reaction. We've certainly gotten one from you, haven't we?

Even though we may disagree on other things, Bob is posting my thoughts exactly. Khel seems to be bringing up a lot of things that don't make much sense in his position, jumping all over people who attack him. Granted, we're only worsening it by suspecting him. I'm still not sold that he's scum, but I don't think it's all newbie yet.

Hmm, clearly the two posts I made on the last page weren't enough for you, kabenon. Like I said, I try not too post too often on day one unless I have something valuable to add.

Until now, the case against him didn't seem strong, but that speaks miles to me. ANYTHING ANYONE posts on day one is valuable. You should know that. The point of day one is to talk about things and figure out who the scum are for discussion only. First days are often the longest on MS, and they can be the most important for discussion.

As I said, I'm most suspicious of MightyFireball because he continues to go along with what is being said without any attempt to make his own analysis. That shows lack of interest. Yet he has quite a few posts.

Lack of interest in helping the town plus maintaining a high post count equals trouble.

Oh No you didn't! You're saying, in the same breath, that you're not interested enough to post as nothing's happened, but you say that someone else doing the same thing is scummy. That's not good. I don't buy it, d8p. Too hypocritical for my like.

No, MightyFireball I hadn't missed it, but I'm not saying it was not good enough, for goodness sake. I marked it down as unhelpful, which, to be fair, was a little harsh.

Mild attacks always worry me more than strong ones - I can't help thinking the defender and attacker are in cahoots, firing blanks.

Even more incriminating, IMO. He asks MF for a reason, MF points out he started the frigging wagon, and d8p says that that's not good enough. Nuh-unh. That doesn't fly.

Bob: I don't get your last post, can I have a further explanation? I'm fried, papers, etc., so I don't have any more time to look it over.

Unvote: Bobness, Vote: d8p

for many, many reasons stated earlier. I think the whole thing is riddled with hypocracy.

I agree with Bob about Khel, but not enough to vote for him. Having said that:

FoS: Khelvaster

Also, MF and Bob: I don't think either of you are off the hook. It's entirely possible that you're bussing/being bussed by your respective possible scum buddies. IMSPNGMEOY (I've maybe sometimes probably not got my eye on you).

Oh, regarding MetaGames, Bob seems townie based on my previous completed game with her, but she could easily fool me.

[beanbagboy]

Firstly: I was saying that you originally jumped with little reason. I agree with and support the explanation you gave, it was really just saying that I felt you hadn't initially supplied a reason.

Gah, Secondly, ok, I think I understand, he's saying if you defend a sloppy attack then you're defending the attackee, and you agree with him, but... you don't see what else you could do? Ok. Gotcha.

Ok. That explains lots.

[beanbagboy]

Whoa, I missed a lot, I need to read this, but just so you all know, I'm talking to bob in my last post, didn't see you MF! (I agree with you, though.)

Let me read, then I'll comment. Wow, this is fast!

[beanbagboy]

Ok. I'm still kind of reeling from all the posts (not complaining, activity is a good thing) but I think d8p doesn't look much more townie. Also, I agree that Khel defending d8p looks... murky.

Earwig is just being silent. I do agree he should post more, but I don't think it's suspicious just yet. It could quickly get suspicious though.

So: d8p vote stays, Khel gets a FOS, and Earwig needs a

mod prod

, IMO.

You guys agree?

[beanbagboy]

:goodposting:, Bob. Lynching lurkers does us nothing. If they are lurking, yet online, that says something, but for all we know Earwig doesn't frequent the site. That could have nothing to do with his alignment.

FoS: ShadyForce

[beanbagboy]

Oh, ok, sorry. I missed what you were saying... I am mentally klutzy.

Still, I'd rather vote a suspicious active player. But, good point Ripley. I want a prod as it is possible he's just forgotten about this game. But I see your point.

Also, Khel, I agree about lynching an active person but not about MF.

[beanbagboy]

Good point, Khel, didn't you just defend d8p?

[beanbagboy]

Yeah, as for metagame, in Newbie 356, Nurdok did that the whole time and he was mafia. (Okay, I was the other scum, but I thought he could have done a better job, lol.)

Diff people play differently, but still, that's a general scumtell IMO.

[beanbagboy]

I'm reeling, lotsa discussion - ok, Khel isn't making sense anymore. At all. d8p has stayed conspicuously quiet through all this, IMO.

Yeah, :goodposting: and stuff, I just came back from dance, I'll analyze soon.

[beanbagboy]

Ok, Aimee, that was not only humongous but amazingly helpful.

Kabenon - Thanks! I spend a lot of time reading the wiki, I get involved in these things.

Aimee - Can you list your specific questions about me? Sorry, I have a lot going on right now, but this is what I think you want to know:
Why I attacked d8p,
Why I attacked Bob,
Why I attacked Shanba,
and why Garth Brooks was on my iPod.

Ok, for your PBPA, it was amazing, but some of the things you say about me confuse me, like my "hypocracy" re: Khel. Can you post quotes/links to things you disagree with me on so I can clarify when necessary?

To the best of my ability: d8p was stating that MF should post more when he wasn't posting much at all. He also stated posting much didn't do anything, but that other lurkers (mf) hadn't contributed. I thought that was hypocritical. Obv random voting doesn't count there, I acknowledge that those posts of mine were pointless. But for the most part, up to that point and now, too, d8p hasn't contributed much at all, IMO.

Bob had joined on the Khelvaster wagon when it was popular, but she wasn't really bringing much new stuff to the table, at least that's how I saw it then. I now realize she had, and I don't suspect her anymore.

Khelvaster, at the time of my defense against him, hadn't really done anything scummy. He mentioned bandwagons a few times, and everyone jumps on him. I didn't really see much that he had done, to be honest. Okay, he changes his mind, but I could totally see it happen to a newbie, someone else is bandwagoning, so you do it, but then you think it's bad, so you draw attention to it, I know I've done similar things. The hypocracy wasn't so blatant, IMO. But then, he started posting more (he hadn't posted much at the time) and was overly defensive, as bob said. I thought that did look scummy, although in retrospect I'm not so sure, if you were in a dangerous position like that wouldn't you be defensive? I'm on the fence for Khel.

Garth Brooks got on my iPod because one day, it crashed, and since I didn't have time to look through my library on iTunes and pick out my songs, I had to grab the whole library which had my moms music, including garth brooks and enya. EWWW!

[beanbagboy]

Too much homework to reply. When will summer come?

Tomorrow, I hope, I'll be able to respond.

[beanbagboy]

Sorry, school is going nuts lately, I promise I will get more soon. Three day weekend coming up, maybe I'll do a PBPA then. I would love to participate more, too much HW!!

[beanbagboy]

Ok... a lot happened while I was gone. Earwig, I don't suspect him for lurking (yes, ripley, put your hand down, we all know that he is active elsewhere, blah, blah, blah, I'm pointing out that it might not be earwig's imminent evil.) but the scumtells he just posted... no, that didn't really occur to me.

Khelvaster is just sort of being wishy washy, jumping on lots of wagons besides his own.

I'm sort of switching now, d8p made a good post there, I agree with a lot of what he just said. That earlier hypocracy, was, IMO, much more noteworthy than Khel's initial WIFOM, but the game has further developed from these points and I'm now leaning towards Khel and Earwig.

Although, Earwig having ADD might explain some of his behavior, these things run in my family. I'm sorry for being vague, I'm rereading the game now.

[beanbagboy]

Gah, I missed an entire page!

BTW:

unvote: d8p for now.

On reading this page... Khel still looks suspicious to me, the deadlines and all. Earwig, meh, possibly.

[beanbagboy]

Okey doke. Reread, at least up to page six, which still gave a lot of in sight. I still think the bandwagon talk by Khel really wasn't scummy at all, but then he made lots of other defensive posts, making excuses and WIFOMs that didn't make sense. Shad and Khel both voted Pickem, who, at that point hadn't really done anything scummy at all.
d8p's stuff makes more sense now. MF... meh, I still need to look more closely, but not yet.

Also, Shanba has been lurking in plain sight, IMO. He hasn't posted in two pages, and his last post, while long, was all quote except for one line by him. I don't think he contributed much of value through the first six pages.

So:

Vote: Khelvaster, FoS: Shanba

mostly so Shanba will post more original stuff. The more Khelvaster talks, the more I think he is scum. It's still possible that he's just a newbie making mistakes, but I'm starting to doubt that. I remember, in Newbie 356, I pulled the "whoops, I'm a newb!" card all the time. It worked very well, actually, but still, don't let him completely off your radar.

Bob has been acting consistently metagamingly wise with the only other game I've COMPLETED with her. I'm playing lots of games with her but we're both alive in all of them. Bob, despite being in like twelve games, is still a goon, which disturbs me.

(Also, Aimee, I got Garth Brooks and Enya off my iPod yesterday in favor of stuff like Cartoon Heroes and Sandstorm. Mmm! *dances*)

[beanbagboy]

Ok: at D8p, I wasn't used to people using votes for pressure in a bandwagon, yes, that is, I'm used to people voting for who they're voting for. (Yes, bobness.)

I joined the Khel is suspicious wagon after taking a more careful look at his posts. When I wrote the post saying he wasn't suspicious, what I was talking about was that I didn't think the "hypocracy" was suspicious. I still don't. But his posts afterwards were getting throughly more scummy. I reconsidered and put him in the pile of "don't knows."

What I was trying to say is that a very common scum tell was being the third wagon vote. While as you said, these are outdated, no offense to Bob, but we're both kind of new and I could totally see her accidentally doing that. (Again, bob, this isn't an insult, I saw something suspicous.)

It's in the common tells section, How to Find Mafia.

3. From what I had seen, she hadn't contributed anything NEW. She replied to my satisfaction. Yes, she supplied those quotes but they were just going along with what had already been stated.

4. I meant he hadn't been here to post anything substantial, sorry if that was too vague.

Yep, like I said he didn't make much sense with those attacks, it's what is garnering my vote for him.
OK, when you said I said I thought he was being sincere, what I had meant was that the initial hypocracy wasn't a scumtell. Then, I looked over the other things he had posted and those DID look like scumtells.

Also, so you understand me because it sounds like I was being vague:

Bob wasn't suspicous simply for putting the third vote. A third vote is a third vote. It's not a scumtell. I felt she was simply restating what had already been said on a case which, at the time, I thought was weak. The case she was using was simply that he mentioned a bandwagon that wasn't.

So:

d8p: I agree with a lot of what he says, I see what he's trying to say now, town, prob.

Aimee: Er... her analysis, on reread, gives off some weird vibe. I can't really explain it, but it seems almost like... like, she's trying to get us to follow her analysis of which there are a few holes. I don't know, seems town, but I'm watching her (as I am watching everyone.)

Khelvaster: My lynch for today, I think his WIFOMs and the "I'm a Newb!" card in addition to random and OMGUSy style of voting disturbs me.

MF: Too many people, I need to look over again, but I guess it's true that he hasn't really contributed...

Shanba: Quiet lately.

Me: I am obv scum. Scummity scum scummmm!

Kabenon: Staying under my radar, I haven't really gotten anything from him yet.

bob: Consistent with other games, prob town.

Pickem - Target of too many votes that make little sense. I don't know, but that gives me the slightest vibe of pro town.

ShadyForce - A lot of random voting, like the Pickem thing. That doesn't fly.

Earwig - Possible scum. I could see him go either way, going scum right now though.

Ripley - A bit insistant on Earwig, I can't tell if this is his playstyle or a scumtell. I'm going with town but that seems strange. Possible scumbussing?

[beanbagboy]

@ Bob: No, it's fine, I get you're analysis now. The post count thing was a joke, just saying how you're not one to post a lot (unlike me lol.)

Like, you said here:

Coppélia then jumps forward with some real hypocrisy. Earlier Khelvaster said he was against bandwagons, yet recently he said they were the only way for the game to move forward.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Khel saying he was ever against BWs. Can you link to a post where he says this? I don't remember it. (Oh, wait, I see... he doesn't say he's against them, he says that he isn't looking for one past random voting.)

He says that people are “overreacting”, and targets Coppélia as one of the people who jumped on the bandwagon without major reasoning.

Yes, at the time I felt she was simply restating what was a weak case. She didn't bring up anything new. If I remember correctly, she was simply saying that he was talking about bandwagons, right? Or were you referring to something different?

Beanbagbob says that Coppélia is over-reacting to his pressure vote. I strongly disagree here. Coppélia was merely defending herself, and genuinely seemed suspicious of Khelvaster. I feel that BBB was taking the “third bandwagon vote” too seriously here.

I wasn't saying I was making a pressure vote. I didn't understand that she was simply making a vote as pressure to get Khel to state his defense. Misinterpretation.

Also, the third vote wasn't what caused it, as I said before, the "third vote" I meant was anyone jumping on a popular opinion without giving any new opinions.

Khelvaster’s mistakes seem to be newbie orientated.

While I don't disagree here, there are a lot of those mistakes, and I'm more inclined to think that he is pulling the "whoops, I'm a n00b" card quite a bit. I did the same thing in another game, and I don't think it should be taken for gospel.

A bit inconsistent, beanbagboy mentioned a few posts previously he found Khelvaster to be “sincere”. Then, he says “weird”. He thinks that Khelvaster is scum trying to cover up his mistakes. “...the more he talks the more it seems like he slips up.” Why the sudden change of opinion?

To clarify, I had looked back over the game, and I had seen other things (overly defensive, WIFOM, newb card etc.) that did look suspicious. It wasn't anything new that had come up, it was a new interpretation of old data. I still think the initial mistake wasn't very important, but I do think that some other things he has done are scummy.

Coppélia responds to beanbagboy’s points by pointing out that three votes is often scummy in a newbie game, but in a large game three votes is no-where near a lynch. I have to agree. Putting the third vote on doesn’t really have much of an impact in this game.

Does it have an impact? No. But is it noticeable? If the third voter is supporting a weak case (it could be fourth or even fifth, the idea being a vote that's not really near a lynch but making a bandwagon) then it is pretty scummy, IMO. It's not the impact so much as the intention.

d8P then says he doesn’t contribute much unless he has something valuable to say. Whilst I agree to an extent with this, I think the line between ‘valuable’ and ‘invaluable’ is difficult to draw.

I think everything past random voting is valuable. Even if they post nonsense, you can tell that they don't have much devotion to the game. Realistically this isn't always true but even one line observations can speak miles in games of mafia.

1. Beanbagboy then states that he didn’t find the way that Coppélia placed the third vote scummy, just the way she jumped on the popular bandwagon for no reason.
2. I disagree – she pointed out something she found suspicious about him, and wasn’t just following the crowd like Earwig.
3. BBB also agrees with Coppélia about Khelvaster, who brings up things that “don’t make sense” in his position.
4. BBB then disagrees with d8P and says that anything that anyone says is valuable on day 1. This does make sense I have to say,
5. but some posts weren’t exactly valuable, eg. BBB’s Garth Brooks in Ipod (although I agree, bad choice. Why was that even ON your Ipod?)
6. Calling d8P hypocritical, he dismisses his reasoning. And then votes for him. Personally, I don’t see the case, and MightyFireBall hasn’t exactly contributed that much.

Numbers mine.

1. Yup yup, like I said, no need to repeat myself AGAIN, lol.
2. I disagree, unless I'm remembering incorrectly she was just supplying the quotes for the original argument.
3. Uh huh. Yes.
4. Ditto above.
5. Right, but that was random voting. It was my way of saying "Hi, I'm here, but I don't have many comments."
6. I wasn't dismissing his attack on MF. I was saying that he hadn't contributed much up to that point, and his first post was attacking MF for doing the same. It was saying he was being hypocritical. He has now posted to my satisfaction, however.

She (Bob) also justifies her previous post about d8P.

Sorry, what was that? I don't see it in your PBPA.

Talking of d8P, MightyFireBall immediately comes on and votes for him. When I saw this, I immediately thought OMGUS, but I will of course read the post. I disagree with MightyFireBall here. It isn’t about just randomly posting. It is about posting with content that matters most. Players in my eyes should be valued not due to how many posts they have but how many content filled posts they have. Even Khelvaster agrees in the next post, by saying that “making posts just for the sake of making posts is scummy.”

OMGUSsy, agreed, but, "of course I will read the post?" You didn't read it earlier? Um... forgive me, but not reading valuable posts doesn't exactly seem townish to me.

Content, right, but if they just don't post at all that's not any good either. Also, I slightly disagree with Khel there (and you) in that sometimes, if you don't find much to comment on (or choose not to) just posting to say "I'm here, just watching though" can let people know that you're there. But just spamming isn't good, yes.

MightyFireBall makes a case against d8P being a hypocrite. Maybe it is just me, but I don’t particularly get the case, in question. He can still be pressuring you and expressing suspicion without a vote, you know? Although, checking back, I don’t see voting, just pressuring. I don’t see the hypocrisy.

Beanbagboy states Coppélia voted for little reason. Dude! She had a great big fat inconsistency! What else do you need?

Yes, but he was saying "not posting = scumtell" when he hadn't really posted. That's hypocracy right then and there.

The inconsistency, if we're talking about the same one, wasn't that huge. He said bws were the only way to move the game along, but then everyone got suspicious of him for it (for no reason) and then he said he wasn't looking for a wagon. I interpreted that as either saying that "Ok, I understand that Wagons are bad, I'll avoid them now" or "Post-Random Voting Wagons are bad, I'll avoid them." Also, she had little NEW reason, other people had said this before numerous times. She even starts the post by saying "Okay, now that several people have pointed this out:" She said it herself! Sheesh!

I also agree with d8P about MightyFireBall. He most definitely said that he found that MightyFireBall wasn’t contributing any of his own material.

I never said MF was a big contributer. I said d8p shouldn't throw stones with his glass house.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Shadyforce finally comes on and says he will analyse later., but then says we should, in doubt, lynch the quietest or most suspicious player. Um, why the quietest? Just because they are quiet doesn’t mean they are scum. Coppélia agrees with this, saying that in fact lynching the quietest player may not be the best plan, to which Shadyforce explains as meaning the player who contributes least, and labels Earwig. I agree, Earwig is suspicious, but also quiet. A combination of the both is the problem.

:goodposting:

Kabenon007 says it is important not only to have random bandwagons, but people shouldn’t be switching from bandwagon to bandwagon continually.

Er... Aimee, yes, that's what Khelvaster said earlier, if I understood him correctly... WTF? You're actually starting to look more hypocritical...

Khelvaster, as though not even reading Ripley’s post, suddenly asks why the target has now moved to Earwig. Um, if you actually read Ripley’s post, it would be pretty obvious. And also, garnering two votes really implicate that people are shifting in large numbers. Ripley notices this, saying quite rightly “Overestimating bandwagons seems to be a persistent habit of yours.”

Ok, the first part, I totally agree. But overestimating bandwagons? Aimee, two people shifting very quickly can be large numbers, if I remember they did it within two posts of eachother. It was fast and it seemed to be bigger than it actually was.

BBB then says d8P isn’t looking like a townie (but not explaining why), and that Khelvaster defending him is scummy. And what about all of d8P’s allegations against you... did you forget? A mod prod is also asked of Earwig, which is thoroughly deserved.

I explained why earlier. I thought you knew what I was talking about, but I'll say it again: he attacked MF on the basis of low content posts whilst he had done the same thing at the time of attacking.

They seemed very OMGUSy to me at the time. I guess you're right, though, I should have said that, sorry.

As expected, Khelvaster makes yet another inconsistency. He says that d8P and MFB were 2 players he thought were scummy, but says he wasn’t implying they are scum. So what are they then? He says he doesn’t actually suspect d8P much (another inconsistency) but finds MFB very suspicious.

Okay, agreed.

Also:

I disagree quite a lot with what beanbagboy argues, especially concerning d8P (he still hasn’t responded to) and Coppélia.

But this is inconsistent, I agree with a lot of what you said! My case against bob, I'll say it again, was that she hadn't brought anything new to the table,

at the time.

She simply restated a weak case. SHE EVEN ADMITS TO THIS!

Other than that, I agree with basically every player analysis you state. Look, here:

(BBB agrees) Coppélia I find to be pro-town and I agree with lots of her analysis.

(BBB agrees NOW.) d8P I am getting mixed vibes from. He seems quiet at some quite convenient times, yet he makes quite solid points. Unsure at the moment.

(BBB thinks that while not THE scummiest, Earwig is pretty scummy.)Earwig is easily the scummiest person so far, due to the way he just jumped on the bandwagon without adding any new analysis.

I actually find Kabenon007 the most pro-town player so far. I am very impressed with his analysis. (BBB guesses so.)

Khelvaster’s posts are riddled with confusion and inconsistency. Nonetheless, he seems quite passionate, and does have a good case against MFB... I think...
(BBB points out that the MFB thing was started by D8p. Otherwise, BBB completely agrees, Aimee! The only Khel thing I disagree with is the initial case! We agree on everything else!)

Despite his claims, I think that MightyFireBall hasn’t posted anything new of his own thoughts. Some analysis would be greatly appreciated.
(BBB agrees.)

pickemgenius has faded into the background recently, and thus I currently don’t have a clear opinion about him.
(BBB agrees, but he thinks the fact that lots of people were targeting him with no real reasons makes him ever so slightly more protown.)

I see Ripley as firmly pro-town. He makes a good case against Earwig which I totally agree with.
(BBB agrees, but the Ripley-Earwig link is VERY strong, and BBB thinks that is slightly suspicious.)

Shadyforce seems to want the end to lurkers. I don’t really agree with this strategy, and scummy people should be our target.
(BBB agrees.)

Shanba has jumped on lots of the bandwagons, and has now disappeared. I want to know his thoughts about the Earwig case, and about the Khelvaster argument.
(BBB agrees.)

See what I mean? I still think Khel is scummy, but I think that MF is scummy upon reading your analysis. However, I think you were being pretty inconsistant yourself.

So:

FoS: Aimee, MightyFireball, Earwig. Also: UNFoS: d8p.

I no longer find him scummy.

The Aimee thing is because her analysis has a lot of holes, and she is "disagreeing" with me for no apparent reason. I don't know why.

[beanbagboy]

@Khel: Erm... If she was taking all that time I assume she would be more careful. It's entirely possible that she's trying to mislead us and as townies we have to look out for that.

@PickEM:Congrats on getting your Mafia Scum status! Also, I agree with what little you said there (most of it was quotes, you have to admit) so I'm putting you on my town list.

FoT (finger of town):Pickemgenius

@d8p: Yes, you are posting to my satisfaction. However, I disagree: I don't back down because I try not to just go with popular opinion. If you'd rather me just mindlessly follow the crowd I will.

Also, a lot of people say I don't read: part of it is finals, part of it is I can have short attention spans at times. This isn't how I act as scum, a good example is Newbie 356 (yes, I am aware of how many times I reference it but it's my only completed game that I can reference.)

As for the MF thing, ok, I thought I had remembered someone having said that. I had been writing that when a lot was on my mind and I didn't have much time to check, I think I was mixing up names. I forgot.

@Khel: Did you just copy and paste d8p's opinion without even quoting? And you're giving him a FOS? WTF?

Also, don't say "on day two we will lynch x or y if a or b is scum" or "on day two we will lynch x" because that is a common scum tactic known as setting up lynches.

@d8p: The whole attack on me feels a bit OMGUSy. It completely started with me voting for you, if I remember. I'm not sure if I buy it. I think you're trying to do what you think is best, and I still think you town for now, but that could change.

[beanbagboy]

:goodposting: Also, I don't know if that was intentional, but you refer to d8p as d&p everytime.

Yeah, I think that's where it comes from.

[beanbagboy]

LOL. It's k, we forgive you.

[beanbagboy]

Oh, wow, now I need to reread that.

[beanbagboy]

Ok. First, the Unvote FOS thing means "Well, alright Pajama Sam, you can go, but I've got my eye on you..." (lol 10 points if you know the reference)

As a rule, don't say "after we lynch X, we should get Y" because all kind of things could happen to change your mind. I think you meant that, but it didn't really come out that way.

This is considered more acceptable:
These are the people I find scummy (from most to least, in order):
Scum
Scummy townie
Fairly scummy townie
Confusing Townie
Really excellent Scum
Myself
...or something to that effect.
that way, you communicate who you think is scummy without imposing agendas like that.

Speaking of which...
Beanbagboy
Khelvaster/Earwig
d8p
MightyFireball
Shanba (for not posting)
Shadyforce
Aimee
Bobness/Kabenon
Ripley/PickEmGenius

..from most to least scummy. I do find myself the most scummy. Doesn't everyone?

[beanbagboy]

MF has been lurking, but that last post is something I agree with. You know what? I'm not following the crowd, yes, MF hasn't contributed much but I always feel that suspicious people are suspicious, but quiet people aren't suspicious. They're just quiet.

@Aimee: Yeah, I know, sometimes it feels like it's too much... I don't mind, though.

@MF: No, that I'm scummy thing is a joke. I do think I must look scummy to you guys, though, I'm always afraid of looking scummy.

@Shanba: Yes, thanks for owning up, sure, we understand.

Also, in response to Kabenon's question, I wouldn't ever use that as a gambit. That really only applies to anyone if it's like "well, I said that, but who would say that as scum?" or: "sure, fine, I'm scum. then lynch me!"

@Bob: Agreed.

Rethought Suspect List:
BBB (scum)
Khelvaster (very suspicious)
Earwig (pretty suspicious)
d8p (suspicious)
Aimee (Sort of suspicious, more of a neutral than anything else.)
MightyFireball (Lurky, but prob prob prob prob prob town)
*ShadyForce (should he get a prod?)
*Shanba
Kabenon (Probably probably probably probably town.)
PickEmGenius (Probably probably probably town)
Bob (Probably probably town)
Ripley (probably Town)
Ectomancer (Town)

Asterisks indicate that they haven't posted enough for me to really analyze. They fall straight in the middle for lack of a better place. More probablys dilute it.

Also, good luck Kabenon!

[beanbagboy]

:goodposting: Bob, I can tell you're trying to be nice with the Khel thing and all, but you're being very accusative towards him while refusing to vote for him (as of now).

[beanbagboy]

OK: I havta say that MF doesn't really look... like anything right now. I could see him go either way, but for the moment I don't want to lynch him. He hasn't really made any posts that confirm him either way, IMO.

@Joe: Nice to meet you, I've seen you around. Okay, I'm now highly suspicious of Khelvaster, I don't know if you noticed that. Are you done reading? It sounds like you think I think he's innocent, so let me say this: I think he is scum right now for many reasons (if you want, I will restate them) stated earlier. Also, your columns seem messed up: d8p is in the town column when you don't know about him, whereas Bob and Aimee are in the don't know column when you think them to be town. Can you make a clear list just so us slow people can see your game analysis?

@Shanba: That passes for me. I am temporarily shuffling you to the town pile, that was a meaty post.

FoT: Shanba

Also, MF, is that true about Pickem? I'll need to look over. I'll start my PBPA tonight, or at least I'll try.

[beanbagboy]

Uh... yeah.

Also, could someone PLEASE tell me how to link to certain posts? I'm doing a PBPA and I'm up to page three, but it will make my analysis much better.

[beanbagboy]

Oh, ok, that explains it, HJ.

Ripley... what is so... horrible about that? Do you not want me to do a PBPA? Is that too slow?

[beanbagboy]

Oh, ok. Of course I will. I'll also put specific questions at the end so you know what I want.

Agreed, that wasn't suspicious at all, IMO.

MF didn't seem scummy at all, but upon rereading the game, I have found a few things of interest.

Should we prod Shady?

[beanbagboy]

Sorry, it's late and I have homework. Tomorrow, maybe Tuesday I will reply.

Also, I would like to say I disagree. But I can't embellish that yet.

[beanbagboy]

Ho' boy, a lot of people need replacing... oh, well.

Big thing I disagree with: d8p is saying that "what would that have done" if the bw had switched.

Everytime I read that part of the game, it really does look like the wagon switched, as I (BBB) had my vote on pickem right up until the other two people voted him, almost one after another. It seemed really fast for a random BW and it does seem strange. Even though I think Khel has since done suspicious things, that was never one of them.

Also, the first post in which she went after Khelvaster, she started the post by saying "Now that OTHER PEOPLE have brought this up..." and basically just agreed with everything they said without bringing up any new points. All she did was put in the necessary quotes. I still don't see why you think I "made that up".

I got confused, I mixed up Pickem and MF. I think that is the only thing I have "made up" all game, can you point me to other things I "make up"?

Also, I'm not sure how I misinterpreted your post: yes, I admit, for the umpteenth time, MF didn't start the wagon. But:
- you hadn't posted much at all when you made that post
- and you went after MF for not contributing

...which still seems hypocritical, d8p.

This is getting inconsistent, if you can't explain yourself, I'm voting for you.

[beanbagboy]

Hi, Patrick! (I've read a game you're in...)

I'd like to hear that, too.

Hey, how do you know Bobness?

[beanbagboy]

...which I wrote LOL.

[beanbagboy]

Okay. Thoughts later. Busy.

[beanbagboy]

O.O Who am I voting for? How is.. lynching a townie win/win? That sounds like bizarre wording to me, Khel.

Also, @Patrick: I sort of do the "nonconformist thing" simply because I find it to be more effective: instead of looking at the case for anything, I look at the case against, and see if it holds more water. I present that case, and I usually find it to be more believable.

Sorry if it seems annoying, I haven't actually completed any games as town yet so I have yet to polish my scumhunting skills. But I like this method thus far.

More later, sorry for lurkyness.

[beanbagboy]

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, Khel and MF, but that doesn't fly w/ teh BBB!

I think Earwig is a good lynch, even though it isn't my primary one. Patrick, are you waiting on me for something? Sorry if I'm being irritating, I forget things a lot. ><

Also, if we come around to lynching Earwig (don't worry, I'll hold off until the town is ready) I REALLY want to hammer! It's fun!

[beanbagboy]

Kay. That... well, now we should lynch Khel, please. I don't believe it completely, but I don't doubt it completely, either. It isn't really testable at all, he could just get the scum to kill them anyway. Well, unless it was someone really scummy...

Actually, let's ask Ecto:

Mod: can Scum kill eachother at night? And is there only one scumgroup?

I don't want to lynch a claimed vig YET. Later, possibly, but not now.

I'm not a newb, even though I joined relatively recently. I know a LOT about the game. I know a lot of things that some ICs don't know. So don't write me off like that.

Guys, how long do minis day 1 usually last?

[beanbagboy]

Khel: we know that Vig is hard to justify, but we really don't have a choice but to follow him FOR NOW. If, later, for various reasons he is proven to be lying, he dies. But proving his powers doesn't really work, that is a good point. We could all vote on who he should vig, preferably someone suspicious or non contributing (at this point, I think the town would go for MFB) but it could go numerous ways.

Basically, we follow him for now and wait.

Good post, Shanba.

[beanbagboy]

Sorry, who said this? Me is thick. >.<

I'm... surprised by Khel's reaction, to say the least, it was jumpy. And also, I wasn't saying I would pick MFB, personally, I think the town would. I guess he does seem scummy, but I don't know.

Ripley, I don't think postcount tells anything. Aimee's post was very substantial. Also, I agree with d8p, there are some posts that don't HELP the town. Granted, I do think they are useful, but not in the way they are intended.

Bob can be helpful, and also, she has vanished from MS. So that doesn't tell us anything, either. And Shanba admitted to taking on too much, that's not really a scumtell.

Wow, that set off red flags. Ripley, I... well, I agree with a lot of what you say but something about that post doesn't fly with teh Beeb.

Red Flags: Ripley

I think that Khel is the way to lynch today. MFB is my vig choice, coz I keep wobbling on d8p. And there's not anyone else majorly suspicious. (Well, cept me, but I'm always suspicious. I think I'm still a good player, though, I just really go all over the place in terms of talking.)

Question for Town: Should MFB claim in light of this idea? If we decide to get EW to vig him, which I'm not completely sold on. It was more of a proposal than what I wanted to do.

[beanbagboy]

Ripley:
1. "BBB, you can sing the praises of those other people as much as you like, but with Khelvaster suggesting he be vigkilled as "one of the least contributing people here", it's entirely relevant to post if I don't think the evidence supports that."

Oops... crap. Sorry. I didn't see Khel posted that. Never mind. >.<

2. "(And I made it very clear that I wasn't going by post count alone but also by content.) "

Er... no, not really, IMO. You said it, but your thinger was just post count. Whatever, though.

3. "I wonder if your real objection is that I've, however slightly, questioned the spotless reputations of Aimee and Coppélia?"

Um, what? I agree with you about both of them, except the Monster post DID seem important, to me. (although, they are both friends...)

4. "Which is actually pretty close to what I think about MFB myself; a vague sense that he's been one of the scummier people but without any real conviction or hard evidence to back it up. Maybe I just think it because so many people have said so..."

QFT!

5. "Didn't you just say you thought the town would pick him, but personally you didn't know if you would? Did you make your mind up while writing the post?"

Well, I agree with your 4, but who else is there? If Khel is lynched, then d8p is the only one besides MFB that's scummy, IMO. Shanba, while lurky, has been acting pro town, IMO

Khel: you're WIFOM is what's scummy: If I were scum I would OBVVVVV do _______. That's a mega big time logical fallacy. Also, your strategy is just lynch scummy people. Which is everyone's goal. But, the essence of strategy is the definition of what is "Scummy".

Shanba: THANK YOU! Stop directing the cop, MFB. It's not like the Cop's choice is so hard to make: investigate those that are hard to read. Duhhhhh...

MFB, while I am not sold on him being scummy, is the worst after Khel.

[beanbagboy]

O.O''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

WOW. WOW. WHAT THE HELL.

Sheesh. When I first saw Khel's claim, I didn't believe it. (Sorry for not posting.) And then HJ counterclaimed.

Totally leaving my vote. O.O''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Aimee and Shanba don't seem scummy to me... at... all...

I'm still confused. I could totally see him saying that, as scum, about two townies. If he didn't quote the PM (actually, even then it could be faked) it's not provable. Also, Aimee and Shanba didn't react, though, so Ecto might have not said anything because we could all WIFOM it.

God. God. God. Khelvaster... *shakes head*

So totally leaving my vote.

[beanbagboy]

@Ripley: I've said it before, I'll say it again, I was saying the whole bandwagon "inconsistency" was a load of crap, and I still think it was, but after looking at OTHER things Khel had did, I started to suspect him (and I was right, hehe)

Let's just ignore the scum claim of Shanba and Aimee, the WIFOM of it all is just so nauseating. Like, look, you have the possibility that Khel was being honest, but then Ecto didn't do anything, and then at the same time, it's possible that he was just making them up, but then maybe HE knew that..." which tells us nothing. Shanba and Aimee, IMO, should be considered exactly how they were before: mild scumvibes, mostly protown.

@Patrick: She... could be scum? Uh, what the hell? That seemed... er, IGMEOY.

Yerp, Ripley is awesome sauce.

Assuming, though, because I'm a nitpicker, that Khelvaster is town (if this happens I will strangle him) would that affect your lynch? It wouldn't affect mine, b/c he's been acting so stupid anyway that it doesn't really matter.