Tales of You (Endgame)

[Titan]

Um.

Um.

UM.

how do you know rancid caught their VIG crumb?

[MastinSSK]

We don't have a quick topic for our neighborhood, but the answer he have me about Clyton thinking that we had a lurker was for a quick topic. On the assumption that cabd is using ms private topics for everything, pere giving me that answer thinking I was in a quick topic means it's likely he's not in one because then he would have known that you can't just look at unique views and why I didn't understand why he thought there was a lurker. So, if a member of the scum team could verify if you have a quick topic that would be very helpful thanks!

Eh. I can see PV using QT as shorthand for 'private topic' out of habit. I can also see it being the type of slip easy enough to fake. But I'm willing to play ball, right now.

Saying you don't lie as scum is bullshit.

Remember my innos, and that TIP is confscum. Titus and PeregrineV are his scumbuddies.

And guess what? TIP was confscum. I didn't lie about that.

In general, of course as scum I need to lie about the alignment of players. But as scum? I will NEVER lie about theory. I will NEVER lie about things regarding a player outside the current game. Inside, sure, yeah, lie away about them. Rather, construe their posts in such a way that they look like what they're not, in a way that looks like it comes from town rather than from scum in spite of it not being fully accurate.

You think doing this in the game thread where this is doing all of the above to town is the best move, eh?

At the time? Sure, yeah! It

seemed

like a good idea......

[MastinSSK]

how do you know rancid caught their VIG crumb?

Because after they made the threat, Rancid essentially went, "Duly noted". I'd have to track down the exact spot in their iso, but it basically went,
"We're gladiating DespBRO."
"You try that, you're never going to get it through."
"...Duly noted."
(And me, after that, going, "...Oh." Silently. Since I of course wasn't going to highlight that I caught it.)

[Titan]

He didn't say qt. he said look at the number of unique views. They don't exist in an ms private topic as it's just like a regular thread, hence me not understanding why Clyton thought we had a lurker.

It's not impossible and I wouldn't bet the game on it, but using the private topic is a markedly different experience than the quick topic.

[MastinSSK]

Spent a few minutes in their iso. There are a few which coulda been it, but I can't find one that matches my exact memory of it. :/

[MastinSSK]

^

Removed from list

, for reasonz. (And ns being obvtown at beginning.)

Had to be around here, though, since ~reasonz~ = "I saw Rancid catch the 'crumb".

[MastinSSK]

oh hi there mastin I bet there are two scum in the Abysm, wanna guess who?

It's probably not GiF, and if you even think about trying to lynch that slot you're not making it to Night 1.

Unlike muffin, I like PV because he's easy to figure out the alignment of, you just have to wait til day four.

By then if he's town, a vig might just shoot him.

Found it! I think, anyway.

Apparently, I misremembered and Rancid didn't point it out, but *I* certainly noticed it. I dunno if it was here or earlier, butyeah. I saw a vig-'crumb, and townned them for it.

[MastinSSK]

MastinSSK (4): Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, Yggdra Union, orcinus_theoriginal
Nachomamma8 (3): Titan, Red Gyarados, AngryPidgeon,

MastinSSK

CupcakePanda (1): The Fox and the Hound
Not Voting (4): Nachomamma8, Carbon Fiber, Clyton, Breakfast With Stalin

Fuck it, let's go arbitrary. 1-2 scum on each (4) wagon.

My wagon: PV and/or Orc.
Nacho's wagon: AP and/or Red Gyarados.
Not Voting: Nacho and/or Stalin.

In all cases, the first being more likely than the second. But with a second needed in *a* group if I'm remotely on-base.

I'm trying to run through the scenarios of AP-Nacho being a scumteam, and overall, I'd say that, well...that actually looks frighteningly possible.
Same for AP and orc, though not sure about orc-Nacho. Also have no clue about Gyarados, or how Stalin would fit in.

Individually, basically the only read I have real conviction in is AP, even though I'm currently hunting Nacho and not letting PV off the hook. I can't even form a coherent random guess, though; I'm too scatterbrained and need to regain my focus.

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 2-1

Angry Pidgeon (3): Breakfast With Stalin, PeregrineV, Titan
MastinSSK (1): Just Sheep Us
PeregrineV (1): MastinSSK
Not Voting (9): Kagura, The Fox and the Hound, Yggdra Union, orcinus_theoriginal, AngryPidgeon, Carbon Fiber, Red Gyarados, Cupcake Panda, Clyton

Votecount 2-5

Angry Pidgeon (2): Titan, MastinSSK
MastinSSK (5): Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, Red Gyarados, Yggdra Union, The Fox and the Hound
Breakfast With Stalin (1): CupcakePanda
Not Voting (6): Kagura, orcinus_theoriginal, AngryPidgeon, Carbon Fiber, Clyton, Breakfast With Stalin,

Did notice this, though. Early wagon on AP. Wagon fades, reversed onto me.

I'm still solid on AP being scum.
Thinking not with Stalin, thanks to this.

Votecount Cagefight-3

Lord Bussiness (7): Lord Bussiness, orcinus_theoriginal, Titan, The Fox and the Hound, Just Sheep Us, Red Gyarados, PeregrineV
Breakfast With Stalin (3): Rancid Broderick Drake, AngryPidgeon, CupcakePanda
Not voting (7): Kagura, Yggdra Union, MastinSSK, Breakfast With Stalin, Carbon Fiber, Clyton, Mac

(Which would be minor points for Ap-Orc being a team.) But obviously, not strong, since LB was the obvious choice. Need to check what the votecount was when AP voted, though. Votes on LB? Meaningless. Votes not on LB? Could indicate Stalintown if APscum.

I really need to run the VCA in more detail later, but right now, I'm tired and exhausted and a little bit burned out. (Not to mention, a bit frustrated at there seeming to be more confusion rather than less. Picture less coherent rather than more. More circling rather than less. :/)

I need a nap. (Especially since others need a chance to catch up; having 500+ when the nearest doesn't even have 450 is a sign of how too much I am posting. )

[MastinSSK]

Oh! Just realized. Answer would be in my hydra QT, since I pointed out to SSK the 'crumb at the time. (I think anyway.) I get the time of my post, I get the approximate time of the catch. Don't have access to my QT until I'm at home, though, so that'll have to wait ~6 hours for me to dig up. (No promises of results, though.)

[CupcakePanda]

Apparently pandas are bad at keeping track of time.

But knowing you guys you won't lynch for another week anyways so. Wake me up when something interesting happens.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
4 orcinus_theoriginal
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
15 PeregrineV

*grumble, grumble*
The name of the six change, that I have six does not. Realized that I eliminated Red Gyarados a bit hastily. I have reasons for thinking they're town and reasons for thinking they might be scum, thus their presence. Still trying to figure it out, but that might be a bit more spam than needed, 'specially since working on the Ballad of Tales will help with this and people responding to things I've said can probably already help on that front.

I might be getting distracted by the shiney in eliminating Fox/Hound here and having my vote on Nacho (and if so, zMuff/Nati, I do apologize), but this is something that I need to pursue right here and now to figure out. It can't wait.

If you're town then two of those reads are absolutely bad. Two others are iffy.

why do you do this to me

[orcinus_theoriginal]

fery: we could 1v1 mastin/ap today

[MastinSSK]

fery: we could 1v1 mastin/ap today

Gladly.

Thing is, though, that'd remove chance of productive content today other than choosing in that fight, soyeah. I'll do it in a heartbeat, just not THIS heartbeat. When the battle drums are sounded, I'll enter the fray to answer their call. But it is not this day, this time.

[CarbonFiber]

PeregrineV

, I am unsure about Clyton but I am strongly townreading Titan and I don't think that their neighborhood activity is alignment relevant. For one, they've only had the neighborhood starting on D2 whereas we've had the neighborhood from D1 and had lots of time to talk through things. Also, for most of the time that Titan/Clyton neighborhood has been active, Clyton was on V/LA, Tammy busy, and I don't think Arthur checked in for a long time so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Ffery

, I found your response to my last wall lacking in depth. You say you want to figure out the game. Why aren't you doing so? I asked you what about my stances weren't clear but you didn't point to any specifics and it is coming off like you are trying to dismiss my pushes rather than understand them due to the lack of follow up. I also wanted to know what your issues with the game are right now and how you intend to resolve them. In particular, I asked how they make sense with your stance on Rancid. Your short response feels like brushing aside my questions and a large part of my wall rather than addressing them. Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

Regarding PV's "townslip

:" We originally started off our neighborhood in a QT. Cabd then closed it and changed it to a Private thread about halfway through D1. I assume that the scum too had a QT to begin with which later changed to a Private thread. I am not sure how this affects PV's "townslip."

[CarbonFiber]

I think this will clarify things a bit with regard to 4114 and 4118.

Spoiler:

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

also you are seriously overrating how influential the neighborhood is and how much content it's robbing from the actual game thread. the vast majority of f-16's posting there has made its way here, either verbatim or spread throughout several posts.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

I don't think that's what she's saying. She's saying she doubts Mastin's understanding of the game because he's misreading her, and though it can take you in the wrong direction it's a pretty natural stance to have. It's a similar way she viewed taking seriously Nacho's reads when Nacho tried to put together a scum team with greyice on it in Tales of the Abyss when she had role information that pointed to GI town.

I don't know if the level of disagreement between both of you guys is because of a massive playstyle clash. I think you both make good points but it feels like there is a communication breakdown.

I think what Desp was saying was that Ffery's overall reads are unclear. He's said this before and elaborated in the neighborhood about how the way she organizes her reads don't make any sense. He has a valid point.

I also think Tammy's analogy about Nacho makes sense that it can sometimes be hard to take someone seriously if they are scumreading you and basing their other reads off of it which might lead that player to think that their entire understanding of the game is warped. I think Tammy is referring more to people that base their reads associatively assuming that their scumread is scum and Desp is referring more to how discounting someone's reads just because they have one read wrong is dumb. I think he is talking about it in absolute scumreads as opposed to associative ones.

Hopefully, that makes sense? I wish you'd kiss and make up (unless this is actually helping with getting reads in which case never mind this post).

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery, I found your response to my last wall lacking in depth. You say you want to figure out the game. Why aren't you doing so? I asked you what about my stances weren't clear but you didn't point to any specifics and it is coming off like you are trying to dismiss my pushes rather than understand them due to the lack of follow up. I also wanted to know what your issues with the game are right now and how you intend to resolve them. In particular, I asked how they make sense with your stance on Rancid. Your short response feels like brushing aside my questions and a large part of my wall rather than addressing them. Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm not done responding because I'm not done cogitating.

I guess I feel like my confusion is more obvious than it actually is.

My Nachobork read is pretty stale. Was looking forward to talking with bork about his thoughts on the game state. Now I guess as far as where kagura currently stands it's wait for Nacho or depend on neighbors to talk about where he and bork were or what Nacho is currently thinking, and whether they seemed to be on the same page.

I have no idea if any putative neighborhood would help me in figuring things out or not.

What are your thoughts about Mastin's recent posts?

Beli and I haven't talked much about the game since early weekend. I'll let him know you'd like to talk with him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think this will clarify things a bit with regard to 4114 and 4118.

Spoiler:

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

also you are seriously overrating how influential the neighborhood is and how much content it's robbing from the actual game thread. the vast majority of f-16's posting there has made its way here, either verbatim or spread throughout several posts.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

I don't think that's what she's saying. She's saying she doubts Mastin's understanding of the game because he's misreading her, and though it can take you in the wrong direction it's a pretty natural stance to have. It's a similar way she viewed taking seriously Nacho's reads when Nacho tried to put together a scum team with greyice on it in Tales of the Abyss when she had role information that pointed to GI town.

I don't know if the level of disagreement between both of you guys is because of a massive playstyle clash. I think you both make good points but it feels like there is a communication breakdown.

I think what Desp was saying was that Ffery's overall reads are unclear. He's said this before and elaborated in the neighborhood about how the way she organizes her reads don't make any sense. He has a valid point.

I also think Tammy's analogy about Nacho makes sense that it can sometimes be hard to take someone seriously if they are scumreading you and basing their other reads off of it which might lead that player to think that their entire understanding of the game is warped. I think Tammy is referring more to people that base their reads associatively assuming that their scumread is scum and Desp is referring more to how discounting someone's reads just because they have one read wrong is dumb. I think he is talking about it in absolute scumreads as opposed to associative ones.

Hopefully, that makes sense? I wish you'd kiss and make up (unless this is actually helping with getting reads in which case never mind this post).

Titan's post is a better description of where I'm coming from.

I don't understand why my post would be some kind of hellacious point of contention between them, whether they agree with each other or not.

[CarbonFiber]

It is a recurring pattern of disagreements that I think is fracturing the town. I think they are both coming from different but genuine places. But it may help them get reads through interactions so I don't know.

I don't like Mastin talking about "this is what a scum-me would do" etc, but his attack on Nacho gave me pause. I want to see how Nacho responds.

[Just Sheep Us]

Okay,

here's why I think BRO is town

:

- Consider the amount of emotional involvement that BRO has had in the game versus Wicked. Once he and Desp got themselves involved and placed that vote on Rancid, we were dealing with a very tense gamestate and BRO's personal involvement in the game was incredibly high. This was compounded when Rancid were insulting BRO every step of the way. I think the insults furthered the amount of emotional investment that he had in the game and the more they insulted him, the more personally involved he got into getting them lynched. This isn't unusual. When someone is kind and friendly, but a player thinks that they are scum, that player wouldn't be as desperate to get their opponent lynched and they'd be less angry if their opponent got away. What Rancid did in the game was heighten tensions between them and BRO. They trash-talked, insulted BRO's posting, tried to rile him up, took digs at him, challenged him to a gladiator match, sized him up etc. There was really no end to what they did on D1 and you know how Muffin gets when he really wants to rile someone up. I think that BRO reacted to this by getting even more invested in their lynch and wanted them lynched very, very badly.

- This level of investment doesn't happen very often and the way Mala and Cabd/Penguin persued him in Wicked was markedly different for these reasons. Penguin even told me later that she wanted to work with BRO and had that happened, she would have chosen to neighborize him N1. Malakittens didn't bait BRO, she didn't insult his posting and make him badly, desperately want her dead. She played a fair game and won. Considering that, I wouldn't expect BRO to have the same fury at being lynched in place of his target during Wicked. He was lynched by players that genuinely liked him and cared about him and went about it in a decent way. While he was frustrated, it is not to the extent that it was here.

- Now onto the mechanics of how the lynch happened. BRO-Desp, Pie, and I were pushing the wagon on Rancid and it seemed likely that it would go through. At least upon Pie's replacement, the likelihood of a Rancid lynch magnified. This gave BRO

hope

that they would be lynched. The wagon stalled at times, and I could sort of sense BRO metaphorically drumming his fingers on the table waiting for the lynch to be pushed through at deadline. It was by no means a guarantee, but there was a good chance it would go through and I think BRO was waiting on tenterhooks for it to happen. It was almost assured that he, BRO, wouldn't be lynched. It was either going to be his choice of lynch (Rancid), or a lynch he would prefer not to happen (a lurker), and that was the dichotomy that BRO was looking at. Nacho came in and starting shaking the wagons around just when momentum on the Rancid wagon was stalling and I could tell some of the hope was lost and the disappointment started to etch through like a crash after a sugar high. It became apparent that he would fail and all the work was for nothing. I think anyone would be disappointed and upset.

- From that emotional state, I think the final straw that broke down BRO was the sudden flashwagon on his slot at deadline. So, here we had BRO pushing the Rancid wagon by slowly working through obstacles to finally get this lynch through, and all of sudden, it seems not only is his adversary getting away, but he himself was being wagoned with no resistance at all. It was an astonishing sight to watch from the outside and I can see why BRO who was the target would meltdown at that point. After all the insults from Rancid, the sizing up, the dick-measuring, everything, and he, BRO is target of a dumb deadline wagon that some people hopped onto without a care in the world. This wasn't the case in Wicked. He was battling a worthy opponent (Malakittens) and she won fairly. There was frustration if you read the Wicked thread closely. BRO was annoyed. Just not as much as he was here.

- Look at it from a scum POV: there is no way BRO as scum is this invested in getting a lynch. He wants to survive sure, but the burning desire for Rancid to die and the constant and consistent efforts to make it happen is highly unlikely to come from scum. This is most of what I was referring to from the neighborhood. It is apparent that BRO wants Mastin and Rancid both lynched with an intensity that I've rarely encountered before. He didn't meltdown because he cared about surviving as scum. I think he melted down because his efforts were not only ignored, but at a very, very crucial, critical point when he was losing hope in achieving his goal, the wagon, almost unbelievably turned right at him and it was no longer a question of whether he could get Rancid lynched but of whether Rancid could get

him

lynched.

- I totally agree that his reaction to being run up is vastly different from Wicked. I think a combination of circumstances account for this difference as opposed to BRO's alignment being different. Your logic makes sense: It is true that he said he cares more about being lynched as scum, and he cared more here than he did in his last towngame. One thing I really love about your scumhunting is that you are empathetic enough to understand how others are feeling and if you put yourself in BRO's place with all that he had to endure in this game, realize what he wants, and what his goals are, you'll see why he reacted in such a different way than he did in Wicked.

Sorry for not being around; I'm pretty mafia'd out right now, and have been playing LoL with 90% of my free time (gonna get that Diamond before I graduate college!)

This post is terrifying inside my head.

Holy shit.

Like, I can't even.

Anyone who calls F-16 town is either scum or in my "ignore this" book for the rest of the game.

[Just Sheep Us]

yeah, like anything goes

oh wait, we're not allowed to reference that game anymore. i forgot. evidently so did mastin.

And what you're yet again forgetting is that Anything Goes had me legitimately scumread you, thus the hostility.

Guess what?

On all future days I played in?

I was buddy-buddy diplomatic. Towards Mac. Towards PA. Towards Brian Skies. You can see it quite clearly in my posting. When I was scum, the only time I broke the buddy-buddy was when I had a legitimate scumread, thus, was legitimately scumhunting, and thus...was acting like town.

Protip:

I rarely mess up grammar. Desp does semi-frequently (same way you can tell me/AP apart; my prose is probably the most formal/concise/styleless on site).

[Just Sheep Us]

This convo re: p5 is dumb because p5 has been pretty obvtown by gamestate since he was the obvious scum-designated mislynch.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm here. Perhaps a bit less "here" this week and next than I have been due to work issues, but if you've got any questions, I'm still checking this thread twice a day.

-B

[CarbonFiber]

Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm here. Perhaps a bit less "here" this week and next than I have been due to work issues, but if you've got any questions, I'm still checking this thread twice a day.

-B

Have your reads changed since 3406 and are there any players you feel strongly are town/scum? Who are the players you still need to sort?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)