Mafia v. Wolves Redux: Finally Over!

[Phoebus]

Vote count:

1 Battle Mage (theopor_COD)
1 DrippingGoofball (Akbar)

4 Raffles (Battle Mage, Fuldu, Mastermind of Sin, Mr. Flay)

Not voting: 13

10 to lynch

[Raffles]

OTU didn't have any effect on me whatsoever. It was how he was standing close to lynch for a prolonged period of time that gave me few thoughts that I described above.

[Battle Mage]

sorry i havent been of much help so far today guys. i find the amount of potential clues in the flavour to be a little heavy. dont worry though, i am here and keeping a close eye on things. here are my ideas of what the flavour could mean:

Most sane people did this.
There are always those, however, who are not quite completely sane, and who have business which is entirely their own.

This bit emphasises the difference between sane and not-sane. in Mafia, of course, this has a slightly different meaning. As far as i know, the only role in which you can be sane or insane, is Cop. This quote would imply that Al3xz could have been an insane cop. This would certainly tie in with him 'having business that is entirely his own'-which suggests he had a power role.

al4xz

was one of those people and he was out and about in the evening. He knew the risks of what he was doing and the risk was what made him do it. A shiver of excitement ran along his spine as he crossed the village green, on his way to the river. He hoped for a rendezvous there, and if that didn't happen, he could always help himself.

This section clarifies that Al3xz definitely had a role last night, which he attempted to perform. He targetted or spoke to someone in particular by the looks of things. The bit that strikes me as odd here is the last phrase. 'He could always help himself'. what does that mean? i doubt this game contains an Insane Cop who can protect himself from an NK instead of investigating. its possible, but unlikely. the fact is, he obviously DIDNT help himself, whether he could or not. The mason theory falls flat at this point-as a mason in the typical sense cannot 'help himself'.

As

al4xz

lay down on the soft grass under the willows which grew along the river bank, another one of those people was flitting about in the shadows. Presently, they went up to

al4xz

and put their hands around his neck.

al4xz

smiled a little, until the hands choked further.
"Uncle." said

al4xz

He was replied by silence.
"Uncle!" he said, a little more urgently.
More silence.
"UNCLE!" was his last word.
Followed by more silence.
Broken only by the noises made by the river as it flows past.
A serene silence.

This passage implies that Al3xz was targetted by someone, but not someone unfamiliar to him. The term 'uncle' has alreeady been discussed a little. Kison suggested that it could mean a term of surrender. this is possible, in which case the killer would presumably be someone that he knew and trusted (someone he thought was just playing around). This is similar to Raffles(?) theory, where the killer IS his uncle. However, neither of those are what strike me as the most likely. it makes far more sense to me if you read his repetition of the word 'uncle' as a cry for help!
He is confident to begin with that his buddy will protect him, but as time goes on he becomes gradually more anxious. I think Al3xz had been expecting someone to save him, but that person hadnt come.

Until it is broken by the scream of a girl, out and about for an early dip.
Always on the lookout for trouble in this days, it is not long until one of the village folk come to investigate the source of the trouble.
They find

al4xz

paler than the girl who found him, his face twisted in a grisly snarl.

Im not sure about the snarl bit. implies that Al3xz could be a werewolf.
it should also be noted that the mod makes very sure to show that the person who found Al3xz was a young pale girl. could be useful to know later.

a search is carried out of

al4xz

's house. It reveals a disturbing assortment of things like ropes, whips, handcuffs, knives and rolls of linen.
A search of the body reveals a card in it with

ESE Member

written on it in blood red colour.

The discovery is grim.
What will you do about it?[/i]

The stuff found in Al3xz house features an assortment of odd items, some of these items for sexual pleasure. i cant think of what else links all of the to be honest, apart from perhaps knitting. lol
ESE could stand for Erotic Sexual Enterprises, or i could be way off the mark

To conclude, Al3xz is more likely to be wolf than mafia, because of his snarling. he was more likely to be killed by Mafia because he was strangled. its possible that he had a scum mason buddy who killed him, but that means 2 missed kills last night, which is unlikely. Perhaps he was part of a cult-1 of whom was also a doctor-hence he expected protection. its possible he was part of a cult-hence he came up as scum, however the Mafia killed him. doesnt explain the snarl, but fits in with everything else.

Anyway im making notes on other peoples views of the flavour, so i can feed em back later and check for inconsistencies.

BM

[Battle Mage]

ooh-something useful to comment on.
if you think my last post was 'throwing dirt', you are very wrong. Fact is, i had barely read either player, and thus the vote was hardly educated. i felt Raffles action at the end of yesterday was scummy, and Xreyox was looking a little TOO protown. do you have ANY other reason to think i am scummy?
BM

First off

unvote, vote Battle Mage

Read his posts in isolation, it's tough to find BM as scum because he always tends to act scummy but his last post makes me think we may have scum BM playing this game. He's looked to join a bandwagon again on Raffles whilst trying to throw dirt elsewhere namely at Reyox. I've no real read on DGB but her lack of participation may just be her style of play.

@theopor_COD, Fuldu, DGB: Are all your reasons listed in my list. Was those all the reasons that made you think OTU was the right lynch?

I'm not sure how yfine

Many

. But these are all the reasons I could find. If I've missed any of the, Pls add them back. Just read. If you think OTU was the right one to be lynch, I guess so are many players in this list.

Theopor_COD

#211. OTU's vote is opportunisitc but again I'd be just as wary as the early ppl on Reyox's early wagon. OTU's assesment on Battle Mage is just as scummy. I don't really like the way OTU has unvoted Reyox and then turned his attention on BM for supposed lurking.
#383. still not sure if OTU's the right lynch, will re-read asap.
#494. I'd guess THIS was a lie? Being as four days have passed since. “THIS = OTU saying -ACK! I had my whole post written up and I closed the window on accident. I'll re-write it in a bit I've gotta go for now.”

vote

OTU's lack of defence makes me think we had little choice. I'm not sure why he didn't at least claim, however with the deadline I think he was likely to be the only possible lynch and lynching someone gives us more information than a no lynch. Yes I wasn't certain of OTU being scum or town but his lack of defence aside from his post attacking BM amongst others was pretty much all he gave us.

Theopor_COD

Post 211 he defends BM some which could indicate partnering.(But, in post 414 he points out BM's scumminess for fishing in 260) He FOS's OTU & Scarecrow and then declares a hunch that MoS is scum. Now that a month is passed, do you still have that hunch and if so, could you elaborate on it? Also, what does the phrase "post some waffle" mean?

Post 414 & 417 He declares Remus to be more scummy than OTU.

By post 494 he's moved back to OTU. Was this from lack of support for the Remus wagon, or did you change your mind?

Post 546, voting DGB(which I agree with), and no mention of Remus.(which XreyoX pointed out) Care to elaborate?

Suspicion of MOS was random, he's not done anything overly obvious to worry me further at present, mind he's a good player so who knows. "Post some waffle" - just means posting rubbish, i.e totally irrelevant, guess it was in relation to WizardCat.

I found OTU relatively scummy whilst doing my re-read he was the leading wagon, so with two scums in the game chances are some pushed his wagon, remus jumped out at the time as being scum suspect number one to me. I'd need to re-read his latest posts to confirm if I still feel like that, but at the time he jumped out at me.

[XReyoX]

@BM: 1)you obviously didn't read the original deathscene. The sane-insane thingy wasn't there originally. Oh c'mon. rope and knife as sex tools for an insane cop called erotic secual enterprise written in red text? I guess you are the one who is insane. (Or the mod is if this is true). I've said that whether alex is a wolf/scum doesn't matter. He is still a scum in one of the groups.

quote BM "do you have ANY other reason to think i am scummy?"

2) Yes. your opportunistic vote on OTU which didn't provide any useful reasons.

3) Stop quoting a large chunk of text.

[bird1111]

Apoligies for being late

In regards to al4xz; I suspect he was cult, but if we have a serial killer than he could be mafia. However, that seems unlikely as that would mean both the mafia's and the werewolves kill would have been blocked, which is unlikely to happen.

[Raffles]

I still think people are thinking into this too much. An antagonist has been killed, could be on either side. There was only one nightkill. Does analysis need to go any further than this? In fact, why does it matter if al4xz was wolf or scum? They are just names. You don't need to do this if there is just two mafia groups, namely because well... it's not possible. Why does this need to be done here?

[XReyoX]

All these gives me a bad gut feeling that OTU is a townie about to be lynched.

If you so think he is a town, why didn't you said so. Why didn't you try to convince people that he is a town? Why is he setting so close to the town means that he doesn't worth to be lynched?

Well given either no lynch or OTU, which one would you want? I know which one I would go for.

You unvoted. That means you went for the no lynch.

No Reyo, I would have chosen to lynch OTU rather than have no lynch. I understand that much.

Then you said lynching OTU is better than no lynch. and you would have chosen to do so.

So what did you want? Lynch? No lynch? OTU was town? OTU was scum? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, insane can apply to just about any role. An insane doc can kill instead of protect, an insane roleblocker might accidentally block someone else, etc. There are all sorts of ways to implement it. I think it might have more to do with the flavor of his role, making me believe him to be more likely as cult. I still don't believe he was a wolf, it just doesn't fit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I protest too too much? I'm not sure I understand. Does that mean I should ignore and lurk? Or I should put aside what I think and just go with the flow? I don't like either of the option.

There used to be a wiki article explaining it, but i can't find it. Bah.

As previously explained, you don't seem to want people to investigate the night scene too closely. There is something to be said for taking it with a grain of salt, and many of the theories are pretty bad, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore the possibilities. I agree with the theory that you are probably ESE and want people to assume that ESE is mafia instead of some third scum group we have to worry about.

Everyone needs to remember that just because this is Mafia VS Wolves doesn't mean that we are limited to two scum groups...

[Raffles]

All these gives me a bad gut feeling that OTU is a townie about to be lynched.

If you so think he is a town, why didn't you said so. Why didn't you try to convince people that he is a town? Why is he setting so close to the town means that he doesn't worth to be lynched?

Deadlines. OTU lynch is better than no lynch, as many people so far have said.

Well given either no lynch or OTU, which one would you want? I know which one I would go for.

You unvoted. That means you went for the no lynch.

Wrong. I unvoted because I wasn't convinced OTU was a scum anymore.

No Reyo, I would have chosen to lynch OTU rather than have no lynch. I understand that much.

Then you said lynching OTU is better than no lynch. and you would have chosen to do so.

So what did you want? Lynch? No lynch? OTU was town? OTU was scum? It doesn't make sense to me.

I unvoted, but realizing the deadline, I preferred OTU lynch over no lynch. Look, you are struggling enough with two voting actions. Your head will explode with various theories and WIFOMs if I voted again. Also OTU hadn't claimed. If I put him on lynch -1 I'd run the risk of preventing OTU from claiming. If I hammered him, OTU won't be able to claim. Realizing all this, I didn't revote.

If I was there to place the hammer on the deadline, obviously I would have done.

[Raffles]

Everyone needs to remember that just because this is Mafia VS Wolves doesn't mean that we are limited to two scum groups...

Three or more scum groups IMO is insane and improbable set up if you ask me. Unless scums are 2:2:2 and they had some awesome powers then it might be balanced.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Three scum groups is easily feasible, and I'm not even counting SKs. How many large games have you playing on MS so far?

[Raffles]

Tis my second. Other one is Consulmaker, in which we are also happily arguing away. =]

[Mastermind of Sin]

For example, read WoT mafia, where there were 2 mafia groups, a cult, a mini cult, and at least two SKs.

[Raffles]

I don't know what WoT stand for, but I'll take your word for it. I can imagine how analyzing night actions for that one would be a right mess though.

[Mr. Flay]

Too Townie is the logical fallacy of suspecting someone for acting to much in the town's interest.

I continue to maintain that Raffles is either a terrible player or ESE. I will stake my game-life on it being the latter. There's WAY too many assumptions going down in this game with respect to flavor, night scene, etc. "Retired Cop" isn't a standardized role any more than "Godfather" is.

The Wiki is Not God

(and when I say that, it means something!).

Tomorrow I believe it will be time to look at some other other 'confused' souls with respect to the al4zx's death. Today, though, Raffles.

::edit while posting::

WoT = Wheel of Time, a large theme game from last year.

[XReyoX]

He was teeteering on lynch -2/1 for a very long time.
----> A sign that he was not worth the lynch?
----------> If he is not worth the lynch, why do I still have my vote on him?

You said he isn't worth the lynch there. But now you say he is worth to be lynch.

[Raffles]

I continue to maintain that Raffles is either a terrible player or ESE. I will stake my game-life on it being the latter.

Oh dear... I hope you are joking Mr. Flay. I don't want your blood on my hands by making you reitre from MS...

Tomorrow I believe it will be time to look at some other other 'confused' souls with respect to the al4zx's death. Today, though, Raffles.

Okay. So, go ahead. Hit me.

[Raffles]

He was teeteering on lynch -2/1 for a very long time.
----> A sign that he was not worth the lynch?
----------> If he is not worth the lynch, why do I still have my vote on him?

You said he isn't worth the lynch there. But now you say he is worth to be lynch.

Okay, so to re-explain. In less confusing chronogical order, of what went through my head.



OTU on verge of lynch for very long time.

Maybe he is not worth the lynch?

Unvote
Realize the deadline

Given no lynch or OTU lynch, OTU lynch is better than nothing
Should I revote? No I shouldn't (for reasons above)

[/i]

[Battle Mage]

i did read it. didnt memorise it. note that i also said the erotic thingy only applied to some of the items. i couldnt see another connection better. I also pointed out that the flavour is full of contradictions, which is why it took me so long to have the inclination to analyse it. I never said i had an immediate solution, but those are my thoughts. you can think them wrong all you like, but there is no need to reduce this game to childish insults.
i didnt know you spoke for Theo. is that a permanent thing, or is it just when you are scumbuddies?
does make me wonder why YOU havent got your vote on me if you find me so scummy.
fyi-my vote on OTU wasnt opportunistic. i was one of the first people to vote for him, and i stayed on him for nearly the whole of day 1. if you think this scummy, why havent you mentioned those who joined the wagon later?

Unvote

@BM: 1)you obviously didn't read the original deathscene. The sane-insane thingy wasn't there originally. Oh c'mon. rope and knife as sex tools for an insane cop called erotic secual enterprise written in red text? I guess you are the one who is insane. (Or the mod is if this is true). I've said that whether alex is a wolf/scum doesn't matter. He is still a scum in one of the groups.

quote BM "do you have ANY other reason to think i am scummy?"

2) Yes. your opportunistic vote on OTU which didn't provide any useful reasons.

3) Stop quoting a large chunk of text.

[XReyoX]

@raffles: why sitting close to the lynch for a long time means he is town

[Raffles]

Well wouldn't you think that if there really was a convincing case against him, he would have been lynched already, no? I looked back and whilst there was no convincing case that he is a town, there was not very much for scum either. I decided at the time that he didn't warrant a lynch. Hence I unvoted. We lynched more because of the deadline rather than a case against him. Don't kid yourself of that.

[XReyoX]

@BM : Because majority of the people didn't provide much reasons for their vote. I wouldn't believe that NO scums are on OTU's wagon. So I have to poke people so that I can distinguish between the real opportunistic voter and those who were not. No you don't stand much scummy than others.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, a stalling wagon is usually the sign of a scumbuddy that their partners don't want to throw under the bus, so assuming that lack of lynch = town was either bad reasoning on your part, or a bad attempt to deceive us by making shit up to cover your tracks.