Mini 404: Diablo Mafia (Game Over)

[Save The Dragons]

StD, from my playing with you, you only err on the side of caution as scum. Are you claiming that you are scum most of the time?

I'm sorry. I didn't realize 2.5 games was a large enough sample size for you to determine the way I play as scum.

It sounds a lot like you credit your point to him, which, for example, would make him look more culpable should you turn up as scum.

!= is programming language.

Vote: Remus

you're scum.

[Thestatusquo]

STD, when you get back to the forum, could you please comment on my debate with stoofer. Pat, I would like you to as well.

[Mr Stoofer]

:arrow: I'll be away until Wednesday 12th April. I'll try to get online but I may not be able to.

[remussaidow]

Shea, and StD, I would like you both to state what about Skruffs' first claim was unbelievable. I know that he didn't help himself any with his Wiki antics, but that didn't change the credibility of his initial claim. He onlt started messing around after you continued to pressure him, and he knew he'd get lynched.

I thought his claim was BS. It wasn't a matter of not 'caring that there was a chance it was true' there's always a chance a claim is true. It was a matter of me not believing the claim. Are you saying the pro town play is to not lynch a claim I don't believe?

(I understood your sentance. Unfortunately, it was your argument, not your grammar, which was flawed.)

TSQ, I've been working on this statement, trying to figure out what your DWA is. I can't find it, I really have no idea what you're talking about right now.

Stoofs, I just got you on deliberately weak argument. I'm not sure if that makes you scum or not.

One of (or the) remaining scum's name is Andarial or something very similar to that (as I can't spell it right), and her particular kill method is a poison attack in the game. I'll have to look at the morning scenes again, but I think that two nights ago, Duriel made the Kill, and night one Andarial did. I don't know how helpful this information will be to the town, but I figured I'd share it.

[Mr Stoofer]

One of (or the) remaining scum's name is Andarial or something very similar to that (as I can't spell it right), and her particular kill method is a poison attack in the game. I'll have to look at the morning scenes again, but I think that two nights ago, Duriel made the Kill, and night one Andarial did. I don't know how helpful this information will be to the town, but I figured I'd share it.

How do you know that?

Is it from the Mod's deathscenes - in which case could you spell out how you worked this out?

Or is it from your role - in which case I don't think you can post this without giving a full claim?

[al_kohaulec]

I think I know where Remus got it from (but I'm not going to answer it for him). It shouldn't cause any problems to pursue that question, but I don't think it will tell us anything really beneficial either.

[remussaidow]

The two dead scumbags are from a grouping of a few demons in the game that rebeled against Diablo. There's only one of the major ones left, and she's also considered to be the leader. Between my own rolename and what I was in the game, and the rolename's of everyone town that's dead and what they were in the game, that seems to be the schematic.

[al_kohaulec]

Hmm... I have my suspect list pretty low, I'm gonna try to look up a couple of things to see if I can minimize it some more.

[al_kohaulec]

Ok, TSQ is under heavy suspicion. If TSQ is

not

scum, who does everybody think is most likely to be scum?

TSQ, who do you think is most likely to be scum?

[Thestatusquo]

A DWA is something that I picked up from reading seols games. You insert a diliberately weak claim amongst stronger ones, and see which one gets attacked, and by whom, and in what combination.

That good enough for you, remus?

Basically, you say something silly and easy to defeat, and if it get's attacked, at the expense of the person ignoring the valid points, it means that person is not trying to actually discern scum, but instead is trying to just make you look bad by scoring easy point in an argument, something which I find a HUGE scum tell.

Seol explains it better than I do.

dwa is one of my favourite tells, it stands for "deliberately weak argument". its basically when i have a bunch of questions/issues and i throw in a throwaway, easily refuted point that is incidental to the point at hand - this is the deliberately weak argument.

this allows people to respond to the post without addressing the key points - something which someone who was actually trying to work stuff out would want to do. it's a trap to identify whether people are in the argument simply to score points, avoid conceding points themselves, and generally make the other person look scummy, or whether they're actually debating and are open to both sides.

responding to the dwa only shows a) lack of conviction in your own position (because you're not defending it) and b) an attempt to evade future discussion about a position you realise will reflect badly on you, by attempting to move discussion onto a tangential point. i hope you can see why this is scummy.

Because of this, stoofer is looking mighty bad in my eyes.

[Mr Stoofer]

This is faulty logic for two reasons.

First, I disagree with the whole DWA concept. It is human nature - not scummy - to respond to questions to which you know the answer; and not to respond when you don't know the answer.

Secondly, it doesn't apply here anyway, because the the reason that I didn't respond to your other 2 points was because they were (as I understood them) mere contradictions of my earlier point. My only response could have been "No you are wrong and I was right". Indeed, my post 567, in which I did respond to the other point, is just a long winded way of saying "No you are wrong and I was right". I think such things are pointless which is why I didn't bother first time round.

Happy with my vote. Particularly so because (to answer al_ko's question) I can't at the moment see who else would be scum if not TSQ.

[Thestatusquo]

1) No, that's not the point of DWA at all. While it is human nature to respond to what they know, it is more powerfully pro town nature to, if there is a question they do not know the answer to, to stop pressing for that lynch, because unsure of scum = hesitant to press/vote. THAT is how DWA functions.

2) I have already explained that's how all arguments actually break down. LEARN2LOGIC.

[Zindaras]

Official Voting Update

:

Thestatusquo

: 2 (DragonsofSummer, Mr Stoofer)

Mr Stoofer

: 1 (Thestatusquo)

remussaidow

: 1 (Save the Dragons)

Not Voting

: 3 (al_kohaulec, remussaidow, StallingChamp)

If you feel anyone needs prodding, feel free to say so.

[Save The Dragons]

Although I kinda doubt you are scum, TSQ, I really don't think Mr. Stoofer is scum for the reasons you're claiming him to be.

The whole concept of a DWA is flawed imo. I'd think if you throw anyone a bone, they're going to bite. I don't see how scum are more likely to pick the argument to answer than town are. If Stoofer homed in on it and was like, "THIS IS BAD AND MAKES YOU SCUM!!!!" then yeah, I'd say that he's picking it out of a collection of strong arguements. I also think if a DWA is going to work at all as a tell, it needs to be nestled in like 6-7 good arguements, so the reader will pick and choose which ones to go after. But I personally think it's craplogic to put out and arguement, have it answered, and be like, "HE ANSWERED IT!"

I honestly don't think either of you are scum, so I'm not paying too much attention to your debate. Sorry about that. I'm more inclined to beleive you (TSQ) are scum, however. And i'm a lot more inclined to believe remus is scum.

I didn't believe Skruffs's claim because it was just too sketchy. He constantly tried to verify that his claim was realistic by posting Frozenstein on Wikipedia. In hindsight, this sounds like the actions of a goofy Skruffs, but I felt it could represent the actions of a goofy scum skruffs trying to cover his tracks. Then he claimed something completely wierd, even in jest, it was strange to have him revoke his claim. There were too many inconsistancies.

I didn't even vote skruffs until after he made his second claim, so that whole pressure thing...yeah, not so much.

[remussaidow]

has everyone forgotten about this game?

[al_kohaulec]

I'm wanting people to answer my question of who they find most scummy after TSQ. I want to get some information.

[Mr Stoofer]

(to answer al_ko's question) I can't at the moment see who else would be scum if not TSQ.

[DragonsofSummer]

I actually do think at this point that if TSQ is not scum there is a good chance STD is because he has sat on the fence most of the game so far and is still not adding much to the game. He has called Remus scum with no real reason for it than that Remus called him scum that I can tell.

[Thestatusquo]

I fail to see why STD as scum would attempt to derail a wagon on a townie.

[DragonsofSummer]

I fail to see why STD as scum would attempt to derail a wagon on a townie.

I don't really think that him saying he doesn't think you are scum, but scummier than Stoofer, and telling you why DWA doesn't work qualifies as trying to derail your wagon.

If you are refering to his remus vote, if he is scum, then maybe he suspects remus of having a power role as a townie and wants him dead during the day so he can look at other options for the night.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm sorry, but if you're expecting a scum derailing of a wagon, especially by an experienced player by STD to be something like "OMGLOOKDON'TVOTETHEMOMGTHEY'RETOWNOMG" then you haven been playing enough mafia. The way someone derails a wagon when they are trying to be subtle is to point vague suspicions on other people, while at the same time saying wishy washy things about the wagon.

Wagon momentum seems to be in large part dependant on peoples continued posted support, therefore, someone who does not directlysupport a wagon, or somewhat supports another is, if unintentionally, derailing the original wagon.

Now, it becomes our jobs to determine the motivations behind that. I just don't see a scum STD having the inclination, or the motive to post in the manner he has recently.

[Mr Stoofer]

Making Your Mind up

by Bucks Fizz

Winner, Eurovision Song Contest 1981
3 weeks at #1 in the UK chart, April 1981

You gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

You gotta turn it on, and then you gotta put it out
You gotta be sure that it's something everybody's
Gonna talk about
Before you decide that the times arrived
For making your mind up

Don't let your indecision, take you from behind
Trust your inner vision, don't let others change your mind

And then you really gotta burn it up
And make another fly by night
Get a run for your money and take a chance
And it'll turn out right
And when you can see how it's gotta be
You're making your mind up

And try to look as if you don't care less
But if you want to see some more
Bending the rules of the game
Will let you find the one you're looking for
And then you can show that you think you know
You're making your mind up

Don't let your indecision, take you from behind
Trust your inner vision, don't let others change your mind

And now you really gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

And now you really gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

For making your mind up
For making your mind up
For making your mind up

[Thestatusquo]

Nice contribution, stoofer. All you have done is pushed me, and then refused to even look at the possibility of anyone else. You may be advocating we 'make up our minds' but making them up to the detriment of discussion, as you have done, is not a good thing. Give us thoughts on other players, specifically, remus, and DoS.

[al_kohaulec]

Honestly, TSQ, you are my best bet also, and with the absolute refusal to claim you have, my vote is most likely going onto you.

[Thestatusquo]

Uh...I never refused to claim. There is no reason for me to claim, currently. Get the pressure, and a reason, and I will certainly claim.