Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Guardian]

I confirm!

~Guardian

[Guardian]

Hey guys, first game here, please don't lynch me if I'm overexcited or whatnot as I've seen happen in other threads...

**tries not to be overexcited**

First vote...

Vel-Rahn Koon seems like a good choice because I'm a UVA student whereas he's at Tech... Most people at UVA would agree that all people at tech are scum, but I actually don't embrace that rivalry. Here's some good will, Vel!

Raffles also seems like a good vote because he has the most posts by far and I would infer is the most experienced... however if I became experienced I would hate it if people used this good but very painful logic... also if he is a townie which is percentagewise more likely, it helps to have an experienced player on the team!

I agree

FOS:John and DLMF

lol, but not quite fair to vote them out first before giving them a chance to respond to these claims...

I've read up a little and it seems that casting a die, doing an

actual

random vote, and requesting that everyone follow it is the pro-townie thing to do. I hope this game is a blast, pardners . Here goes!

d12 = 2075866942

[Guardian]

Hmm, I didn't want to vote based on this, but Raffles is a good choice anyways as experienced, and the die said so! Speed lynch Raffles!? :X.

Vote: Raffles

[Guardian]

Lol, knew that would come from

someone

but...

Why would an experienced player retaliate for a) over-enthusiasm, or b) being randomly selected by die? .

FOS: Raffles

. Am I wrong?

[Guardian]

Kay, I'm over it, thanks .

Joke?

In the way it was presented, somewhat, but really first day is there any better way to select someone than random die roll? Have you participated in games where people actually show tells first day? If so, or if I'm just terribly flawed in this logic, very soz and please explain .

IGMEOY: Guardian

I haven't mastered all the abbreviations here... link me or spell it out?

[Guardian]

Vote: Occult

The "Joke?" comment was aimed at your "Speedlynch Raffles" comment, not the random vote.
IGMEOY = I've Got My Eye On You (see the wiki for common abbreviations).

Yeah - I tried to respond to this - Speedlynch obviously has bad connotations etc etc and that's why I said the way I presented it was jokeish. However, why not select someone with random die roll and have everyone vote for them and get to night one? That's what I mean about is the logic flawed - should we not just get rid of whoever the die landed on (Raffles in this case) and move on to the night? To restate: are there really meaningful tells on day one?

Thanks for pointing me to the wiki, should have thought of that!

[Guardian]

Oh!! I'd read some games where the lynch scene was way earlier on than that... don't be too hasty then guys, let us discuss!

[Guardian]

Vel I see where you are coming from on Raffles very suspicious chat and stuff, and unvoting me ... and in terms of getting discussion going, don't we need the other people to post to give us something to analyze?

[Guardian]

I went back and re-read all the posts... Only thing i can further contribute is that I have a slight hunch gorckat is pro-town because of his random vote choice and phrasing...

Of other people who have posted substantially, there is no one that I am confident is not scum... Vel is playing very pro-town but that could be a guise, Raffles seems really fishy to me and too 'let's get going and play whoo I am NOT scum', occult,

OMGUS

for voting for me, maybe you're scum but the vote for me doesn't contribute to or take away from that...

People who haven't posted much, please do so, scummy lurkers!

[Guardian]

True. Some people are probably still sleeping .

btw, my vote count:

Raffles: 2 (Vryklan, Guardian)
John: 1 (mustafa15)
Avinyl: 1 (gorckat)
Occult: 1 (Vel-Rahn Koon)
Guardian: 1 (Occult)

Not Voting: 6 (John, Avinyl, DLMF, Peter Venkman, Ichigo, Raffles)

[Guardian]

before a longish post...
my vote count:

Guardian: 3 (Occult, John, Vryklan)
Vryklan: 2 (Raffles,Avinyl)
Raffles: 1 (Guardian)
John: 1 (mustafa15)
Avinyl: 1 (gorckat)
Occult: 1 (Vel-Rahn Koon)

Not Voting: 3 (DLMF, Peter Venkman, Ichigo)

7 to lynch?

[Guardian]

occult now has two, DLMF posted while I was posting. 2 not voting.

[Guardian]

Yeah I am new to online forum mafia. I have played IRL and on IRC quite a bit - (ps if anyone knows a good non-dead IRC channel let me know) - and when the IRC channel became unpopular I looked up other ways to play online, and I found this . IRL and especially in IRC speed-lynch day one is the way I've always seen played. From reading the forums, I am pretty sure that gorckat is correct that double accounting is OK – I am not doubling though.


Vel is right that my hunch about gorckat is probably off, but one way I try to start out a game is figure out one person I can be pretty sure of trusting - and this game gorckat seems legit.

There is no proof he actually rolled a dice to pick raffles, it's just too much of a coincidence that he had already had a go at raffles and then "oh look the dice picked raffles"; i dont believe it for a second.

In fact if i was making up a random d12 result 11 is the number i would have gone for too which reinforces my point.

Yes there is, look at his first post. His quotation is something you can do by clicking "post reply", then clicking "dice" option... he could have picked this up from reading through any old game.

Just wanted to point out that Raffle’s analysis is right on here, I saw the dice function used and saw the dice button in post reply, and used it.

Raffles is doing a very good job at scum or is really a townie... I voted him, FoS'd him, and he still is saying I am probably a town lol.

Vryklan, what’s wrong with Raffles defending me? Nah oddly it seems suspicious to me as it does to you... Or it could be a town trying to defend another town? I am still kind of confused there.

Avinyl’s random vote is iffy to me… I am not 100% convinced that speed day one is bad, but it probably it is not.

John, I’m sorry that your vote did not achieve its intended purpose ^_^.

unFoS: Raffles

FomS: Raffles, Vryklan, Avinyl

p.s. I am going on a really long vacation May 15th, so hopefully this game is abnormally short, or I'll eventually need a sub. whatever .

[Guardian]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but that sure looks like a good way to "buy" the other person's trust if you aren't on the town's side...although I presume you generally don't run up to 'em and give this reasoning

It's not about you trusting me, it's about me trusting you

[Guardian]

Hey, this won't be as logical or long as a post as you usually will get from me; I am inebriated. I love the tiger shit rofl, nice April fool's joke!

Raffles: If someone is trying to appear too townie like, isn't that a reason for voting for them? Your argument doesn't make much sense; no one tries to appear scum-like, whereas scum would try to appear townie-like.

I think Peter is misguided/scummy/hasn't read closely enough: I am the only vote for Raffles lol, and I still suspect him highly. Peter randomly throwing suspicion on my for protecting Raffles (which I have not done) is mysterious.

I don't see John as scummy yet, though he may be. Avinyl I still find suspicious as well as Vry peter and Raffles.

And John, why night one kill me? It's not like I'm a power role. PS: mafiaz, plz don't night1 kill me.

Mmmm yeah that's it for now, love the tiger theme.

[Guardian]

gorckat - I read it in some thread discussing alternative methods of playing - I probably misinterpreted a strategy that would work for some specific setup as a general one - I thought it was a general one though. And I've seen dice used a lot on page one in threads so I thought dice made sense.

igmeo

everyone but gorckat.

I see what people mean about being suspicious about John... and he set up nicely the Guardian will get lynched prediction. Predictions always trip me out.

[Guardian]

Peter - I missed reading this, good call! I guess I might be a good nightkill one then, with no doc to protect me :\. We might have a vigilante on our side or something, but your analysis is probably more accurate... We'll see after night1.

Peter's posts put more suspicion on John and less on Peter, in my opinion. Why would a mafia point this game detail out - and like Peter said why did John highlight that I'd be a good night1kill??

FoS: John

[Guardian]

I like counting things (these totals are assuming official count was right):
Guardian (2): John, Vryklan
Occult (2): Vel-Rahn Koon, DLMF
John (2): mustafa15, Ichigo
Vryklan (1): Avinyl
Avinyl (1): gorckat
Raffles (1): Guardian
Not voting: Peter Venkman, Raffles, Occult

There are 12 alive and it requires 7 to lynch.

[Guardian]

nooo the tigers are gone .

I still have no real idea who the mafia is... someone claim?

[Guardian]

Heh in case it was unclear, I was joking and meant that a scum should claim .

Ousting power roles tends to be a very bad decision, I agree.

[Guardian]

Well he knows Raffles IRL... And maybe he is a mafioso and would want Raffles out of the game. Combined with this very good catch by gorckat and Vryklan claiming shotgun (mafia I assume) in post 108,

Unvote, Vote: Vryklan

!

[Guardian]

And John, why night one kill me? It's not like I'm a power role. PS: mafiaz, plz don't night1 kill me.

Please do not claim this early in the game. You shouldn't claim unless you're at Lynch-1, and even then if you're a Vanilla Townie, some people say don't claim at all.

I see your point. If I was/am a power role, though, I would be saying the same thing at this time in the game .

Aye, it's pretty difficult to get any word in when Guardian, Raffles and Peter V are dominating the discussion.

This isn't a real life conversation where only one person can speak at a time! On a forum, no one can dominate the discussion - absolutely nothing is preventing you from posting as much as we do .

We should call out some lurkers like DLMF, Ichigo, Vel-rahn koon

I especially agree that Ichigo has not posted nearly enough.

Vryklan definitely has some explaining to do - the read I am getting is that he is a mafioso who would have wanted Raffles out of the game if inventing a (fake)random d12 roll. I don't know if this means anything as I've already voted for him, but

FoS: Vryklan

.

[Guardian]

What did I tell you about claiming and ousting the power roles?

FoS: Guardian

What I did in that post is explain how I wasn't at all saying anything significant about power roles, it was just me trying not to get killed, whether I be a power role or vanilla townie...

UnFos: Vryklan

That makes sense...it was in the random stages, after all

I still really want Vryklan to explain his statement, to me it still seems like he made a slip in the early stages - I don't think we should let him explain it away so easily.



I am getting two contradictory vibes that Raffles and Vryklan are scum... I don't see them as scumbuddies but this is possible... I am much more suspicious of Vryklan right now though.

[Guardian]

I just try not to get killed because when you die you can't play anymore and that's not fun -.-.

[Guardian]

I'm here but do not have much more to contribute at this time... I have some feelings about who might be mafia (other than those already explained) but at this time they are no more than feelings, and I don't particularly want to tip the mafia off to them...

Vryklan post, seriously, you're looking scummier each day.

[Guardian]

Guardian is the most suspicious to me for all the reasons mentioned above by Vel but also if you look at his posts he posted dilengently at least once a day (Ussually more) until about the time Vry reappeared. he hasn't posted three days since. This could show he took the Vry distraction to lurk for a bit.

Nah, I just got busy and disinterested with the game, and realized that it makes no sense to post much more than the least posting person, as they determine the pace of the game. We can't really take a good stand on anyone, for example, until Ichigo posts, because whatever we believe about anyone else, we won't have enough information about Ichigo to see if he is really a better scum candidate. Summary: I'm simply not going to post as often as I was, because there is no point... PS: Occult, What post did Vel say good reasons about me being suspicious, so I can address them?

I see good reasons for voting Avi, but even if Vryklan's reasons for being inactive are valid, I still am most suspicious of him. His most recent post about how 11 is a great random number to pick when rolling d12 does nothing to hack away at gorckat and my theory, and he goes on to say that his statement was invalid, but that there may be psychological reasons behind it. Raffles and Vryklan are still suspicious to me, maybe Raffles moreso than Vryklan...

Right now Avi(until he posts), Ichigo, Raffles, Vryklan, and slightly Occult(just OMGUS reasons for Occult) are most suspicious to me.

Forum mafia is quite frustrating -.-.

[Guardian]

I am conflicted about posting when some others post so little but I'm bored so heregoes...

What a weekend

@Vryk - thanks for posting a response to 107. The answer you gave was the one I was expecting (after all, applying what you would have done to someone else's actions and then pointing a finger for it is a good dose of craplogic), and I'm glad that you've given your reasons for keeping your vote where it is.

Unvote: Vryklan; Vote: Avinyl

Avinyl's vote switch in 180 seems off to me. He votes Ichigo in post 171 for "lurking", and then switches the vote 1/2 hour after Ichigo makes

ONE

post in response to the vote. For only having a "little suspicion" of Guardian you posted quite a bit about him in 171, yet you're gunning for lurkers and OMGUSing in the process? Seems like you're trying to point as many fingers as possible and sow confusion.

Yeah, this seemed fishy to me too - it's incredibly ironic that he had internet problems or whatever and had to lurk and then was extremely suspicious of Ichigo for lurking... and then switched it. I don't want to unvote Vryklan just yet, but I think Avinyl deserves this pressure as his actions have been quite sneaky.

I read the newbie game gorckat mentioned, though, and both gorckat and avinyl's actions are consistent with being town... (avinyl lurking and gorckat NOT trusting people [he trusted people as mafia]) but in that game avinyl did not throw suspicion around randomly as he has here to an extent.. In that thread people listed their suspicions in a nifty column, I'm going to do it because it looked cool.

Most scummy

Vryklan

- bad logic, lurking while accused, defended by Raffles too much.

Avinyl

- throwing vote around, lurking, bad logic trying to just get people convicted, distancing from Vryklan and Ichigo (who I find suspicious) by voting and unvoting

Raffles

- defends me then attacks me, defends Vryklan heavily because they are irl friends.. acts really really pro-town then says that for sure the pro-town scum tell is a fallacy...
--gap--

Ichigo

- lurks a lot then comes back without adding much, bad vibe

mustafa15

- lurkish, randomish votes, bad vibe

DLMF

- lurkish

John

- lots of short posts, not a lot of explanation

Occult

- i have no real read on him yet, despite his many posts
--big gap--

Vel

- lots of good logic, could be a well hiding scum but I think that his interest in getting right people is genuine... loses some points for association with VTech,

Gorckat

- good vibe, his actions are consistently pro town, he is suspicious of everyone, his action is markedly different from when he was scum in the newbie game

Peter

- pointed out stuff that would not make sense for a scum to point out..

Least scummy

[Guardian]

question on general theory: is it sometimes better to not call out a scum so they won't be more careful, and then to point out fishy things after many slipups, or should I/we point out stuff as soon as we see it?

[Guardian]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing? Maybe my suspicions are completely off? However, he seems to be following the flow and not really trying to root anyone out (scumtell).
Overall, I'd like to know what Occult thinks his voting/fos record.

Avi Raffles Occult and Vry have some explaining to do. I almost want to vote Avinyl to pressure him back to lynch -4, but I am still more suspicious of Vry at this point.

[Guardian]

assuming official #4 was correct (which I'm sure it was):

Unofficial

Vote Count:

Guardian (2): Vryklan, Raffles
Avinyl (2): John, Vel-Rahn Koon
John (2): Ichigo, Avinyl
Vryklan (1): Guardian
Occult (1): DLMF
Not voting (4): gorckat, Occult, mustafa15, Peter Venkman

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Guardian]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing?

I don't exactly get what your trying to say. Could you please clarify.
I'm reading this as more of a OMGUS sort of thing. I've said that I am suspisious of you and Avi mostly and that still stands.

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

I'm assuming Guardian will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's trying to say that you (Occult) are suspicious of him (Guardian) at the same times that Vry and Avi are suspicious of him (Guardian), and that by you now being suspicious of Vry and Avi you're "distancing" yourself from your "scumbuddies".

Did I get that right Guardian?

I'll clarify - this part of my post I was further stating that I am somewhat confused and puzzled by Occult; this particular action was anti-scummy/confusing to me:
He is suspicious of me, but then is also suspicious of Avi and Vryklan. If Avi/Vryklan and Occult are scum buddies targeting me, then it would not make sense for Occult to target Avi/Vryklan as well as me, except as a distancing measure. However, Occult IS targeting BOTH of them as well as me, so his actions, while targeting me, do not seem to be coordinated with either of Avi/Vryklan who I see one of as probably being scum. So (distancing aside) it seems unlikely that Occult is a scum mate with Avi or Vryklan, who seem the most scummy to me, this making him unlikely to be a scum in my opinion.

When I say "Maybe this is distancing? Maybe my suspicions [of Vryklan and Avinyl] are completely off?" I am saying that those are the two cases where Occult's actions in targeting Avi and Vryklan could be seen as being compatible with Occult being scum.

My accusation of Occult, however, which he has not addressed, is that of going with the flow on all his voting/fos's, and not independently targeting anyone.

I feel like pressuring Avinyl; Vel's post makes sense.

Note: this is lynch -3, be careful with votes.

I still am highly suspicious of Vryklan and Raffles, and now Occult to an extent, but I feel that Avinyl needs to explain his logic to the town. Again, be careful not to accidentally lynch Avinyl here.

Unvote: Vryklan

and

Vote: Avinyl

[Guardian]

I'm too tired to do a full PBPA at this time but in terms of your post:

I independently brought up the fact that Avi hadn't posted in the same amount of time as Vry.

You did point this out, I hardly noticed it with no FOS or vote. However, it did go almost unnoticed and you did not reinforce it. Then you did bandwagon on Avi at post 186, FOSing only after three other people voted him.

I also brought up the fact you conveniently disappeared when Vry showed up after his log in problems. Soon after you reappear and are now attacking me it seems.

Again you did bring this up much earlier, but then only band wagoned on me after Raffles and Vryklan were already doing it...


In post 146 you band wagoned on Vry with an FOS, but did not vote because you supposedly were afraid of him getting lynched.

As I said your accusations seem like nothing more then a lengthy OMGUS.

On the contrary, it has been hard for me to get a read on you, but though you have pointed to two occasions where you said something somewhat meaningful, you have posted just enough to appear that you are not lurking, and have not to my knowledge gotten any votes rolling, only gotten on trains to pressure players who already had a few votes on them. Your combination of a few insightful posts combined with seemingly thoughtless band wagoning to throw distraction on as many people as possible is very hard to read.

Also your first analysis went from me at 3rd least scummy to being the top four on your radar, I had only one post saying that I disliked Avi post. What's with the sudden change of position?

In my post I had you fourth to last because I really had not been able to get a read on you all game. You went from fourth to last to top for because your trend of hopping on trains is really making me suspicious... and slightly less suspicious of Vry, but you are coming off as an experienced player and I think maybe you've just been distancing. Stop making contradictory actions that are difficult to interpret, or please explain them satisfactorily!

also, Vry, avinyl, I would still like explanations for your weird logic and vote switching, respectively.

[Guardian]

1. Guardian, I believe that was the third vote on me, so I am at lynch -4, not lynch -3.

2. I do not know what you mean by my "weird logic".

3. My vote History:
Random vote
Vote Ichigo for Lurking
Vote John because i think that he is the most suspicious one.
I would not call that vote switching, at least not more than normal.

1) Yeah I forgot gorckat took his off. So Avinyl is lynch -4 not -3. Good catch, it was a nice way to (at least appear) to be not scummy...

2)That was in reference to Vryklan, not you, sorry for any confusion.

3)It was just the speed that you switched that was really suspicious. Why vote Ichigo then change so quickly? I mean he did come back, but why vote for him in the first place if you are willing to change so quickly?

Guardian I have a question now, you posted at least once (Ussualy more) in a day every day until Vry reshowed up, you then stopped posting for three days. When you were called on it you immediatly posted an explanation and are now back to posting at least once a day...

You took Vry's reappearence to lurk it seems. What's your explanation of that? because I find it suspicious.

Firstly, please do explain your voting band wagoning if you believe it was in fact justified, or say that you were wrong and it was scummy, or whatever.

In direct response to this question of whether I took the chance to lurk, I'll quote myself from post 170, where I responded to a similar question by you:

Guardian is the most suspicious to me for all the reasons mentioned above by Vel but also if you look at his posts he posted dilengently at least once a day (Ussually more) until about the time Vry reappeared. he hasn't posted three days since. This could show he took the Vry distraction to lurk for a bit.

Nah, I just got busy and disinterested with the game, and realized that it makes no sense to post much more than the least posting person, as they determine the pace of the game. We can't really take a good stand on anyone, for example, until Ichigo posts, because whatever we believe about anyone else, we won't have enough information about Ichigo to see if he is really a better scum candidate. Summary: I'm simply not going to post as often as I was, because there is no point... PS: Occult, What post did Vel say good reasons about me being suspicious, so I can address them?

I see good reasons for voting Avi, but even if Vryklan's reasons for being inactive are valid, I still am most suspicious of him. His most recent post about how 11 is a great random number to pick when rolling d12 does nothing to hack away at gorckat and my theory, and he goes on to say that his statement was invalid, but that there may be psychological reasons behind it. Raffles and Vryklan are still suspicious to me, maybe Raffles moreso than Vryklan...

Right now Avi(until he posts), Ichigo, Raffles, Vryklan, and slightly Occult(just OMGUS reasons for Occult) are most suspicious to me.

Forum mafia is quite frustrating -.-.

I keep posting because I check the thread and there are interesting bits I feel like responding too, but posting so much feels like a waste :\. Hopefully it is not. BTW: Next week is hell week for me (literally) so I will probably not be able to post much if at all. Watch me post 3x a day lol... Anyways, back to Occult...

Let me preemptively say that at that time my suspicion of you was just OMGUS, but I am definitely not following an OMGUS line of reasoning now, I re skimmed and didn't like your voting at all. You keep bringing up the same points as points of suspicion against me, and honestly I see you as trying to divert attention from yourself and to whoever is convenient to lynch or interrogate. There is a question in that post you have still not addressed: where did Vel say good reasons about me being suspicions at any time? Did I miss that, or did you misspeak? And please, as I said earlier, at some point justify your voting record.

[Guardian]

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die... You have brought this up at least twice now and... shouldn't we focus on catching scum instead of being happy with lynching a town??? I'm not going to post that I don't care if I am lynched if I'm town, because I do, a) I like playing but more importantly b) if I am lynched then a scum was not lynched, and lynching scum is the point of the game...

You also talked about this whole no power role thing, but who is to say there are no vigilantes, or jail keepers, or whatnot? As for having conviction, I feel Occult's actions were suspect, and I feel I should point that out, especially when he tries to just deflect back all my reasoning as celebrated OMGUS post.

Notice how Occult has FOS'd Avinyl (post 186) - the one point of reasoning I agree with Peter on is that scum could now jump on Avinyl and lynch... This is why Occult's FOS band wagoning is so fishy to me. Avinyl has at least tried to quickly explain his vote switching, and while I would still like to hear more from him,

Unvote: Avinyl Vote: Occult

. Avinyl is fishy but I agree -3 leads to -2 and -1 way too easily, the scum or a silly town hammers and .

If no one drives the discussion, where does the game go? Bah, this is why I said earlier I wouldn't post as much, I just compulsively check forums and like winning games :\.

Peter, are you sure not to point out scum tells? I asked this as a question, and got two responses (posts 197 and 198) that I should point out any scum tells I see. I am just trying to play the game correctly and lynch people I see as potential scum...

Also, what do you mean by that you post votes and the reasoning behind them, and then NOT point out scum tells, this makes no sense (to me).

I agree mustafa seems fishy for his votes on Avinyl, but we aren't scumbuddies so I know that at worst (if mustafa is scum) he is doing what Peter said and making an "oh that makes sense vote".

Also,

FomS: Peter

for saying that we should not defend other players, and then defending (directly) Avinyl and (indirectly by attacking me and saying I am scummy by taking the lead) Occult. Seriously, you FOS'd

everyone voting on Avinyl

... How is that

not

defending him??? Second apparent contradiction in your post... Afraid your buddy might get lynched?

[Guardian]

can't post, but am here.

[Guardian]

Unvote Vote: Ichigo

Tried to pressure before the break, it got undone... here it goes again.
VRK, I am so sorry for what happened at VT, my heart is with you...
Occult Avi and Peter still top my list... I did a post point by point analysis on Peter that got erased and I really don't have the motivation to do it again, but I'll summarize by saying that Peter, your repeated reasoning that townies should not be afraid of dying is at best misguided. Others have explained why, basically, if there is no vig and townies all just lynch other townies... they lose. Each townie should be trying very hard to stay alive, because if they get mislynched that is one mislynch closer to winning for the scum. It is always preferable for the town to lynch scum, and not town.

Even though about half the frequent posters think I am really pro town or whatnot, I have to say again I disagree with too town being a fallacy. If someone looks like they are trying to look like town but are in fact not town, that can be a great tell for them being scum. Yes, if they look perfectly town... it is WIFOM and doesn't work, but if they slip up a bit or whatnot it can be a great way to catch people.

I'd love to pressure Ichigo back into posting, but after that Peter is near the top for me because of his lack of willingness to meet me anywhere near halfway on the 'its ok to be lynched as a town' point, and because he defended Occult then got even more suspicious of me after I unvoted Occult (am I getting this right? too late for a reread...) + other reasons I had that I will reread and remember.

Anyways, yeah that's what I'm feeling right now...

[Guardian]

From post 130:

Sometimes it is in the town's interest for other townies to die.

From post 217:

Townies don't need to look pro-town. They state their logic, make votes,

and often die

. See, a town player dying

can

actually help the town team.

So we should just accept that townies often get mislynched and not try to correct it?

From post 219:

Guardian appears to be very interested in staying alive. He even said so himself. If you choose to make the "he's a newbie" excuse you are engaging in WIFOM. Is he really a newbie?

I'm especially suspicious of his response

was essentially "I don't care,

I just want to stay alive." That isn't a pro-town attitude.

Remember, this just came after I pointed out to him that Town players shouldn't be obsessed with living.

....and since I've gone and made such a big deal out it I expect everyone to now come along and say "Oh man, I don't care if I die! I'm town!" See why I try not to point out scum tells and just vote?

How is a town trying to stay alive not pro-town?

From post 228:

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die...

You misread. The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player. At this point

town shouldn't be scared of death

, whereas Scum are.

From post 236:

Looking at raw odds, it

is likely that a town player will be lynched day one.

Knowing this, a good town player shouldn't freak out (like Guardian has) when facing a potential lynch:

chances are good the town will just lynch another townie.

Sure, a good town player should defend himself, but clearly stating your game intention as staying alive appears scummy to me.

The town players can afford a day one loss, whereas a day one scum loss is twofold: they are statisticly closer to losing the game and they lose a voice of manipulation during the day.

Again, we should just accept this and not play to live and kill scum?

From post 260

<Sigh> It isn't that complicated and the people who don't understand it are applying it to a broader scope than intended. It is my oppinion that a town player shouldn't play to stay alive. If you simply spend your time trying to oust scum than you shouldn't look suspicious and thus no-one will vote on you. If you play to stay alive, you will look like scum.

Guardian seems to be playing to stay alive, in fact, he admitted so.

All emphasis mine. Peter, these are the only posts (or at least the great majority of them) where you addressed your reasoning about how towns should play and how they should think about town deaths...

You directly say that town shouldn't be scared of death, yet you say that my paraphrasing you by saying that

townies should not being afraid of dying

is a misrepresentation of your logic?

You switch your rhetoric at post 236, no longer saying towns shouldn't be afraid to die, but saying that they shouldn't be playing to live. I fail to see the logical distinction.

This is why I am so suspicious of you. You keep responding in posts that appear to be all nice and reasoned out, but you really just keep throwing suspicion back on me for whatever reason you can muster, as you have from the beginning of the game. You, if scum, get to appear to have conviction in my guilt, while attempting to convince the rest of the town that I'm scum...

You've said I've ignored posts when I haven't, you've said I write lengthy but poor reason posts which IMO I haven't, then complain that town players should try and out scum and then complain about my trying to lead the town and my vote switching when I find new potential scum. I've unvoted Avi at your request and logic that putting him at -3 was a bad decision, and you still find fault with me for that. I find most your logic in finding me suspicious at fault, and I find your attempt to mislead the town into being suspicious of me as very scummy.

[Guardian]

unvote

out of respect for Paradoxombie. My vote was more of a prod vote than anything.

I await Peter's reply to my post.

I might do a reread sometime... I am crazy busy, it's silly of me to find time to post here yet I still do.

[Guardian]

From post 235

hippocrit

Random and mostly irrelevant: Mustafa, in post: 214 said hippocrit, not me.

Skimming through last few pages and remembered to address this.

[Guardian]

Raffles has it right. I feel further discussion on this topic is a distraction to the town. I'm sorry it went on this far.

Peter, I disagree that this has been blown out of proportion or is a distraction. You seem to as well, though, despite saying otherwise, as you did see a need to respond to my post. Thanks for that.

I obviously didn't bold all your qualifiers. What's the point of adding emphasis if all I am going to do is let you be wishy washy. I removed all the qualifying stuff and expressed the illogical conclusions that result from your line of thinking.

One thing I want to point out though - you said I misrepresented you. However, let me again quote you and then quote me and let people judge.

From post 228

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die...

You misread. The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player.

At this point town shouldn't be scared of death, whereas Scum are.

From post 261

Occult Avi and Peter still top my list... I did a post point by point analysis on Peter that got erased and I really don't have the motivation to do it again, but I'll summarize by saying that

Peter, your repeated reasoning that townies should not be afraid of dying is at best misguided.

Others have explained why, basically, if there is no vig and townies all just lynch other townies... they lose. Each townie should be trying very hard to stay alive, because if they get mislynched that is one mislynch closer to winning for the scum. It is always preferable for the town to lynch scum, and not town.

Emphasis added.

I obviously mean "at this point in the game", too. We both are referring to this game, and specifically my not wanting to die at this point in the game. In what other context could I possibly be taking your statements?

My statement about your logic is no more than rephrasing your wording - I find it egregiously erroneous to say that in that post I was misrepresenting your line of thinking.

Like I said, it could definitely be seen as you trying to build momentum to lynch me, and then when it's revealed that I'm town, be able to say "Oh but darn, I was so convinced of his guilt."

[Guardian]

I did a quick reread of all posts with the text 'Peter ' in them.

Peter's posts break down to four categories:
a)Throwing suspicion at me in any way possible.
b) Appearing to be useful by pointing out something that we all should have read.
c) Saying that is is

really OK

for townies to be lynched.
d) Throwing more suspicion at me whenever possible.

His first meaningful post was on page 4, and he didn't really get going until page 9, until he saw someone (me) who he could (continue to) pounce on. He posted maybe once or twice wishing that Avi would lurk less or that mustafa would stop voting like I do, but his posts really show the patterns I mention above.

After realizing that pointing out 'useful' information is really just WIFOM, and can be a scum trait, Peter went from being least scummy to kinda scummy then to most scummy for me.

And really, in any game, it is definitely in the scum's best interests for townies not to believe role claims - get close to lynching a townie, then he role claims power, and then gets lynched anyway.

Also, I find it great how when I point out that I'm not really misrepresenting him and that I in fact genuinely disagree that towns shouldn't play to survive, he decides to agree with the two or three posters who think that the argument should be dropped.

And for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game. So basically, what is scummy for me, is natural for him to do?

For these reasons and more, I

Vote: Peter Venkman

.

I find Ichigo (zombie, now) still as being suspicious, and possibly Avi and Occult... but Peter is really not looking like a town to me.

And, as a funny aside: wagon him, and see if he still agrees that it is in the town's interest for him to die. Or that he shouldn't try and live. Or whatever diction he would prefer we use.

[Guardian]

ebwop: thanks John and I agree, zombie please explain in your own words your reasons for your vote on me. I'm sure you have a new perspective on things.

[Guardian]

It's an ironic joke to point out how ridiculous it is. Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

and make longer posts, dude .

[Guardian]

for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game

No, unlike you, I realized this conversation isn't helping the town. Constantly butting heads over a single issue gives the scum an easy out, they don't have to make their own arguments and can just agree or disagree while we make incredibly long posts about nothing.

This assumes that both of us are town. If one of us is scum, isn't it good to give the town this dialogue? And you certainly seem convinced I am scum.

Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

In the event that I do get lynched or night killed, I feel I've made excellent posts that are a true attempt to help the town, and the remaining players will read my posts with a closer eye knowing whatever information the admin reveals.

If your making all these attempts to help the town and whatnot, isn't it better for the town for you to stay alive? Yes, there is the absolute confirmation when someone dies, but isn't it much better to convince the town of your being town while alive? You being dead means you can do nothing to further help the town. And if you are town, another town lynch vote is gone. I think every player in the game has an interest to stay alive, at all times.

ebwop: thanks John and I agree

More evidence of you and John supporting each other. I have no idea why players would put such trust in each other at this point.

-Peter

I do nothing to support John in this post, only thank him for asking why paradoxzombie put a vote on

me

, and agree that paradoxzombie's lack of explanation contributes nothing to the game/discussion. I don't feel nor do I see John feeling any of the "such trust" that you are referring to. John is not convinced I'm scum and wanted an explanation, similarly I know I'm not scum and want an explanation, so at least I can further explain my actions. I again see this as you doing anything you can to build a case against me.

...

Again, thoughts on Peter/Ichigo scum pair? Ichigo lurked his way through the game, and Zombie's first action in joining was to jump on the wagon of me that Peter largely started without any explanation.

[Guardian]

ebwop: Wow, I really realize the slip Peter made in my point one above.

Consider: He reasons we should stop the argument because it will let the scum slip onto the vote and lynch one of us, depending on momentum. He continues to keep his vote on me and proclaim that I am scum, but then reasons, in great townielike fashion, that oh now we don't want the scum to slip on and lynch us - BUT he is concinced I am scum!

So the reasoning doesn't make sense - if he truly was a town looking to lynch me, he would want to keep the pressure on with this discussion. BUT, as I point out the flaws in his argument, he decides that maybe that line of logic isn't the best and that we should just drop it.

EVERYONE: maybe I am off here, but reread the first point I made in the above post and really consider if Peter's logic could possibly be from a town perspective - he wants the focus on me as a potential scum, but then decides that the discussion that would make one of us appear scummy and the scum could slip on.

I think what he is really afraid of is that he will start to look scummy and the town will slip on to him. More than anything, I want to hear everyone's opinion about the first point I made above. If people fail to comment on this, I am going to keep bringing it up until people confirm or deny my logic. I really think that Peter's flawed reasoning there, though, gives us great reason to believe he is scum.

[Guardian]

If lynching me even if I am pro-town would in fact help the town, and you are convinced of that, go for it - especially since I need to replace out in about two weeks due to vacation. All my posts have been honest attempts made in the hopes of rooting out scum.

That being said, lynch Peter, rather than me, because I think he is scum and I think lynching scum helps town a heck of a lot more than lynching town.

[Guardian]

lol at how irrelevant the last 3 posts are...

For those who think my long posts are bad/whatever, I will summarize by saying I largely agree with Vel about Peter/these are my reasons for being highly suspicious of Peter.

mod:

prod Vryklan? I don't remember when he last posted. Or Raffles, let him know he should say hi.

People who need to be more active:
Vryklan
gorckat
DMLF's replacement
Avinyl
mustafa

[Guardian]

I feel it bears mentioning that Vryklan has less than 10 serious posts in the game, and his only vote (happens to be on me) is still standing, and was made on page 53.

Vryklan, come on .

Mustafa, your posts seem actively lurkish, contribute stuff .

Avi... I agree with Peter, wtf with your connection lol...

Paradox is OK, as of now, he just needs to keep it up.

D..F is getting replaced

gorckat just needs to remember to check the thread.

[Guardian]

For my sanity

unofficial

votecount:

Avinyl (3): John, Vel-Rahn Koon, mustafa15
Guardian (2): Vryklan, Paradoxombie
John (1): Avinyl
Occult (1): DLMF
Peter Venkman (1): Guardian
Vryklan(1): Raffles

Not voting: Occult, gorckat, Peter Venkman

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Guardian]

Looking through the vote list, none of the votes really mean anything. By this I mean they do not show people's real suspicions, to a great extent, and they do not make the people who the votes are on afraid of being lynched.

Sure, Avinyl has been lurking, but it doesn't mean he is scum. And lynched -4 is hardly a tough spot.
I have one vote from a player that has been what at all could be considered to be active, and all the rest of the players have only one vote... Paradox I think is wrong in his reasoning, but he is the only vote that stands out in my mind as having some explicit logic behind it.

We need to pull teeth and get discussion going from the lurkers, lynching an active without doing this would be sub-optimal.

I don't know when I'm going to get the time for this, but I should really do a re-read.

@Peter, I still am very suspicious of you, but I've made my points, and until people read, post, and agree/disagree with me, my one vote on you isn't getting the town anything.

@Raffles, if you do a read through all of Peter and my posts, and people's reactions, I feel our little debate gave the town a lot to go on. Maybe the topic was irrelevant, maybe not, but I think there is some substance there, substance that in my mind points towards Peter.

Wagoning one of the scummier lurkers would make great sense now; Vryklan, mustafa, Avinyl...

Avinyl has some votes on him right now, and I'm fine with putting him closer to lynch to get him to post. If I had multiple votes I'd be vote-prodding half the town.

Unvote Vote: Avinyl

This makes lynch -3, take from that what you may.

[Guardian]

Wow. Almost all of you look scummy. But fortunately, I waded through all the wrong scum tells to find the scum for you all, since you haven't done it, despite having 14 pages of posts to work from.

Vel-Rahn Koon is is scumbuddy with Vryklan. John is the Serial Killer. Guardian is flamingly town, it burns my eyes how obvious his townness exudes from him. Peter Venkman or Occult are probably scum (though not together). I can't figure out which one, but we should have time to lynch them both. I'm mildly unimpressed by Avinyl.

Unvote: Occult, Vote: John

, since killin the SK is probably better this early than killing mafia. We can get Vel-Rahn Koon, Vryklan and Peter Venkman/Occult after that. Heck, if we have a vig, we could win by the end of N2.

OMG, thank you, someone who agrees with me at least on something -.-. I'm going to do a re-read and look for the V&V connection, I missed it, maybe it's there.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town? As SK, maybe he wants me to think he's town? Or something? I am really not, at this point, seeing eye to eye with you on that.

I have only ten more days in this game before I go overseas . Maybe we can win before then? .

I would unvote on Avinyl, but Occul beat me to it. -2 is fine with me, I don't want to leave it at -1 so much and try and get a read from the one person who hammers.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

Gorckat, where the hell are you . Ditto with Vryklan's replacement, come to us! Avi too.

mod

prods?

At least Thesp is here, as with Paradox and mustafa.

[Guardian]

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

I disagree, we need to reread and see if any of it makes sense.

And guardian, WTF? Just because he comes in here and says "these people are scum." Doesn't make it true, I find your willingness to follow him annoying.

I disagreed with half of his points, I am willing to reread and consider, however. Show me where I said that because he said it it makes it true.

I know you don't have much time left but it most likely won't happen that fast. Also, my unvoting doesn't prevent you from doing so.

Yeah I know, seeing a lynch or at least some more progress would be nice though . I didn't unvote because I like my vote on Avinyl so long as he is not at lynch -1.

[Guardian]

question on general theory: is it sometimes better to not call out a scum so they won't be more careful, and then to point out fishy things after many slipups, or should I/we point out stuff as soon as we see it?

How prophetic.

Haha. I guess a lot of people differ on this.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

If they're both scum, I have serious reservations as to them being scum on the same team - I have them as dissociated in my notes.

I reread and see no such disassociation, maybe I'll rereread?

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town?

To gain brownie points. Defending townies isn't a tell as to townieness or scumness, in my experience,

especially

early.

Yeah but there may not be an SK, and an easy way to find out if this is plausible is to wait a night and see if there are more than one kills. Interesting that you Freudian slipped John's name into the quote.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

I didn't see him as notable. I'll be happy to review.

Cool. I see a few things, in his and Ichigo's posts.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

I think you've said it all.

Yeah? And actively lurking seems scummy, no?

I also hate Thesp's playstyle of pointing fingers, with no proof of anthing.
since avi will almost undoubtably replaced in my opinion, ill Unvote, Vote: Thesp untill he tells us why im an SK, and not just cause a 5 year old said so.

I'm intrigued by your decision to vote for me based on a playstyle, while showing no indication of actually

thinking

I'm scum. That's a scum mentality.

John has been doing this a bit, but it seems to me that this may be a fallacy of John and not a fallacy of Johnscum. That's kinda WIFOM though... Again I think waiting a night makes more sense if you are convinced he is an SK, more likely based on numbers and setup is that he is scum.

But giving us no reason is a very anti-town play.

I respectfully disagree with this. Just because it annoys you does not mean it's bad. I think the responsibility is upon you to show:
(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the

opposite

. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action

X

, even if

X

is unintentionally harmful.)

I don't think you'll be able to. Of course, you're also welcome to work on the gut feeling of the above, but please understand me when I continue to assert you are incorrect.

Yeah I feel this is a playstyle difference.

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

Okay. I don't mind this approach in the least, especially since I may or may not be trying to drum up support.

If you are town, don't you want town to lynch people you are sure are scum?

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

We can do this if we have a vig and we turbo-vote.

Horray, Beer! I mean, Horray winning before my vacation!

Seems like scum, not because it supports someone I suspect(I don't even suspect guardian that much, just more than anyone else), but primarily since i don't see why you wouldn't give your reasoning.

That's fine with me, maybe even optimal.

Interesting bit there, it's fine with you that he doesn't understand why you wouldn't give reasoning. This means you're fine with his suspicion of you. This leads to various interesting conclusions.

If you've just read the topic you should be able to see that several of us are suspicious of his activity. How about filling us in? Don't you want to help him and us by preventing us from lynching someone wrongly?

Oh, I missed the votecount where Guardian was at lynch -1. I will double check for that.

To be fair, a few people were suspicious of me, I got to lynch -3 at worst I think, maybe -2. I think their reasons for being suspicious were ill founded though .

I think it's a very scummy thing to do, to just casually remark that someone is totally innocent in your mind. It seems like something that would only be done to

1. Throw a little doubt our way. Just enough to make a difference but not be totally obvious

or

2. Try to gain someone else's trust(see directly below VVV)

How would (1) obtain? Also, does it look like I've gained anyone's trust? I'm uncertain that my technique is conducive to trust-forming.

Also, I <3 Occult. I'm beginning to think we should lynch Peter Venkman before him.

1) Yeah I don't understand.
2) I trust you implicitly. NOT. . I like your style, and discussion, though.
Why <3 Occult? Subtle ploy to cause it to make sense for you to agree with me about Peter?


I reread and can see where you may be getting a V&V connection,

maybe, maybe

it is real. VRK seemed town to me, but on the reread I have doubt.

I see no Occult/Peter disassociation, but I am fine with that. Even though I have doubts about other players, Peter is still my most likely scum, we can worry about if Occult could also be scum if Peter in fact shows up as scum. Yeah, wait, why am I voting on a lurker who will give no info whichever team he shows up as, and will likely be replaced, instead of my scum choice?

unvote vote: Peter Venkman

. I could definitely be wrong about this, but if my average feeling for a player on 1-100 where 0 is not scum, 50 is maybe scum maybe not, and 100 is definitely scum I am about 75 with Peter.

Avinyl... meh I see him as scummy but there is so little to go on.

John, maybe scum maybe not, imo not.

[Guardian]

Why <3 Occult?

Why not?


Also guardian your last post proves it, even though you disagree on minor points you completly assume that thesp is town.

Occult, I was going to let you misinterpreting my points in post 366 slide, but since maybe you are considering making it a trend I can't.

I disagree, we need to reread and see if any of it makes sense.

I did and saying john is 100% a SK makes no sense.

Ok, that's fine, but nowhere did thesp say that John is 100% sk, and also don't respond to my point here and then later say that only one of my points "make any sense."

Show me where I said that because he said it it makes it true.

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

Instead of responding to my point, you you basically twisted my joke (so marked with a ) and tried to make it seem that it was the central part of my argument.

Yeah I know, seeing a lynch or at least some more progress would be nice though . I didn't unvote because I like my vote on Avinyl so long as he is not at lynch -1.

This is the only part of your post that makes sense.

Finally, Thesp seems to just be looking for reactions with this post. I doubt he has as much of a grasp on this game as his post said he did.

Ok.. so that's three parts of my post that make sense not one. I agree he may be just looking for reactions, but I needed to reread anyway so I reread with his points in mind, and none of them are complete BS.

Why <3 Occult?

Why not?

I wanted his response not yours, if there is a reason to believe you aren't scummy I'd love to hear it.

Also guardian your last post proves it, even though you disagree on minor points you completly assume that thesp is town.

This is simply not true. I am not on board with half of his ideas, AND I think he might be scum. Some examples:

2) I trust you implicitly. NOT. . I like your style, and discussion, though.

Me directly sating that I don't trust him.

I see no Occult/Peter disassociation

Me disagreeing with one of his main points...

John, maybe scum maybe not, imo not.

Me disagreeing with his analysis of John, which you brought up earlier that it isn't good to assume John is "100% SK".

Seriously, Occult, your interpretation of my responses and conclusion that I assume Thesp is town almost goes beyond misunderstanding, I'm going to have to

FOS

you for that.

[Guardian]

So, um, let's wagon Peterscum?

[Guardian]

ebwop: Or lynch me, confirm me as town, you know I trust thesp for good reasons, you know I really think Peter is scum etc... i found out you need 1 completed game to be allowed to mod, so um, help me out? . Damn vacation, conflicting with my mafia scum desires [/sarcasm]

[Guardian]

So, um, let's lynch Peterscum?

[Guardian]

LOL I thought I'd forgotten to post that.

Sorry for the double xD.

It is helpful though, kinda, gives us some focus... tee hee...

[Guardian]

As a note Guardian has said he isn't that supportive of thesp, but I'm seeing a big thesp influence on him. (This was added for the sake of guardian)

I loved your diction there .

I think the difference between me and the three you mentioned is that for me, Thesp finally brought some bold accusations into the game that I think it had been lacking, and I took them with an open mind. Upon a re-read, I do not agree with all of them, but I can see where they all would have been coming from if he is pro-town.

It seems to me that

John - reacted in an OMGUS way to being accused of SKness.
Raffles - is trying, at least, to understand/work with Thesp but has several reservations
Peter - doesn't like that he's being attacked right now but does not actually directly say he doesn't like thesp's reasoning, just that he doesn't like players leading in general. If no townies lead, then who shall we follow?


Also @paradoxombie, your reasons for voting me were like "oh, i agree with other people's reasons" Then you explained this a bit in your longest post of the game, and I understood why your initial reasoning was what it was. Do you have anything new to contribute, on me, or anyone in the game? Ditto with mustafa15 .

Interesting how thesp finds my one line posts helpful...

Anyways... can we lynch Peter yet?[/troll]

[Guardian]

*Guardian facepalms*

[Guardian]

I kind of tried to control the game and you supported me, John, even when it seemed everyone posting thought I was scum.

What's the difference between me and Thesp that makes you not want to support him?

[Guardian]

@John, see my question above.

@John, are you just going to take that, from Thesp and Peterscum?

[Guardian]

Peter, I was asking John, I wanted to see his reaction, and his defense. I didn't want the focus deflected from him onto my 'propoganda'. I think you're scum, so I say it. Sorry.

[Guardian]

In dramatic Thesp style:
Paradoxombie and Peter are scum. Gorckat and Occult are probably not. Thesp might be a good candidate for third scum. Mustafa might also. Right now I'm really comfortable with either a Peter or Paradox lynch, though.

I am not posting my thoughts on John 'til he responds.

[Guardian]

I am going on vacation starting tomorrow; I PM'd Sefer that I need a replacement... Sorry I've got to go guys, it was fun playing with you.

[Guardian]

ebwop: For my replacement's benefit, I would like to unequivocally say that I am pro-town, by the way.

[Guardian]

packing furiously - since I wasn't able to wait until John responded, I'll say that while I was trying to bait him and wanted to wait and see his reactions, I don't particularly think he is scum. He might be though. I reserve judgment.

[Guardian]

Bah, go town. And I was going to replace back in when I got back from vacation ;(.

[Guardian]

I knew Thesp was scum (and told him so, over the phone xD) -- the other two I was dead wrong about.

Well played scum! Good modding Sefer.

It is funny how half my games as town I get N1 killed for being too townie and the other half I get D1 lynched for being obv scum...

[Guardian]

Gorckat, I knew you were town . Silly thinking I was scum ;D.

And I didn't notice the mustafa replacement -- so I had 2/3. I'm not terribly disappointed with that, day 1 ^_^.

I knew there would be a nurse and deputy day 1, too xD.